To all of you worried that Biden’s support of genocide (or whatever words you use to pussyfoot around the issue) will cause Trump to win the upcoming election, I would like to remind you most of these students are most likely not on Lemmy. If Biden wants to win an election, he has to do things that will get people to vote for him; not simply cry Trump exists. I’m so sick of this fearmongering tactic; the man is literally trying to turn off their preferred form of information while stomping on their other first amendment rights as well.
Is it asking much for you to actually be a candidate worth voting for when your biggest opponent is Trump? So much skirting around the question
blah blah blah, what about her emails the other guy. - Biden supporters
Exactly. Simply existing as the lesser of two evils isn’t enough anymore. You actually have to do things to get votes.
Or is that what he’s doing? He’s just not trying to get the youth vote and is trying to pull conservative boomers by shitting on Gen Z and “owning the youth”? “See I can piss off the left just like Orange Jesus!”
He says many things. Trump also ended a few wars in the region as well. Trump has a better record in the Middle east then the last two Democratic presidents (one big bomb versus 100,000s of deaths). Bringing up the Middle East for the US presidential election is a negative point for Democrats (unless you want to go back to Bush who left office decades ago).
Trump is still out of jail because this current government is that incompetent.
I think if you are privileged enough to grow up in America, and you hate America, there is something wrong with you. Yeah Unger people these days don’t just criticize America… They actively hate it without recognizing the privilege they have. It seems to be a failure of education and their own sense of worth. We live in one of the most free nations in the world. One of the safest. One that gives the most opportunity. But they get caught up in echo chambers that promote failed economic systems. It’s really frustrating to observe.
pickachu surprised face when my own populace learns about the atrocities I committed and is disgusted by it
Yes, we Americans are privileged, but whats wrong with being critical of our role and trying to change it? In the case of these students they are trying to do just that.
We live in one of the most free nations in the world
Students are catching facefuls of mace and rubber bullets for protesting, right now, btw. That activity protected by the 1st amendment. But freedom or whatever, yeah. We have so many freedoms, just don’t try to use them, or we’ll send the armor-clad thugs after you!
Quite the claims you’ve made: “Freedom” is difficult to quantify, but I would argue that as an individual we do typically have a decent standard of liberties. As long as you’re white, male and haven’t ever committed any sort of crime.
“One of the safest”, according to multiple safety ranking organizations, the US is on the higher half of crime rate (per capita) and typically ranks in the bottom half (89) in safety ratings. www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp
“Gives the most opportunity” I think this depends largely on what you consider opportunity. If we look at poverty rates, the US is also not near the top with about an 18% poverty rate. I would consider anything more than 0% to be a place that does not provide the most opportunity. Sure, not everyone is willing to do what they need to get out of poverty, but certainly very few in that group are voluntarily there. worldpopulationreview.com/…/poverty-rate-by-count…
I do agree that Lemmy is very much an echo chamber of “capitalism bad”, but the US is also quite extreme in terms of wage and wealth disparity. It’s hard to believe your country is great when 10% of the population holds nearly 67% of the nation’s wealth, and the bottom 50% holds only 2.5% of it. That’s extremely polarized. stlouisfed.org/…/the-state-of-us-wealth-inequalit…
Real “I pay your salary because I pay taxes” energy. Blocking access to an abortion clinic is also not a first amendment right, even if you pay the taxes that build the roads.
How is sitting on a lawn in the campus, and that is how the protests started, occupying buildings came only after the brutal police crackdown, in any way comparable to that?
Also the students are quite literally paying to be able to go to the campus and use the campus facilities, often even living in dorms on the campus grounds. Imagine you are a tenant and your landlord just arbitrarily forbids you from using the hallway connecting to your flat because he doesnt like you in particular using it.
Oh and of course to stay in your example, the unis and police were happy to have actual abortion enemy proud boys come to the campus and actually attack students and actually do all the things they wrongly accused the peaceful protestors off.
Progress isn’t possible in the US because Dems kept getting away with not being as bad as Reps instead of actually having to be better. As the result the Dems are getting worse and worse and worse and the Reps are getting even more insane. Biden is still running internment camps at the borders. Biden is still building Trumps wall. Biden is still running Guantanamo.
All you get by voting the “lesser” of two evils is double the evil next time.
But when the Dems actually risk losing over their shit, they will be inclined to change it. And if they don’t change it, that means that they rather want to Trump to win the election than they want to end a fucking genocide. You are gaslighting yourself instead of holding the responsible people accountable.
Progress isn’t possible because people who want progress refuse to unite under a concerted effort to make it happen. Biden was able to enact a lot of progressive policies. Hes not perfect, no one is, but you can see the progressive wing of the party have a seat at the table in the Biden government.
Despite all that there are some progressives who want to sabotage everything they worked for.
And who the fuck cares what the neolibs want. They are another obstacle that need to be done away with.
Well people could unite behind an actually progressive party. And that would give them the momentum to surpass the Dems and kick them out of the two party system. You are again gaslighting yourself to go back to your abusive spouse, saying it is better to have some partner, even if the beats and betrays you and has repeatedly shown to not get better except for some small tokens he tosses towards you.
The Dems are deeply entrenched in being a far right neoliberal party. They could have given Bernie a chance, they could have worked to build up new talent after 2016 that is not the face of American corpocracy. Instead they chose the guy that is representing all of this to the maximum. Trump went on an anti establishment claim. What did the Dems but against him? Maximum establishment with CLinton and now Biden. And oh surprise it is not working well.
Again it is the DNC that want Trump over wanting to stop a genocide. It is the DNC that want Trump over providing universal healthcare. It is the DNC that want Trump over fully reforming student loans. It is the DNC that want Trump over not building the Trump wall, over not putting small children in internment camps at the border, from where thousands disappear into child trafficking and over not closing fucking Guantanamo Bay, like Obama promised in 2007-2015.
No… You and I and many of these protesters and yes, a lot of people could unite under an actual progressive. That doesn’t mean they could actually unite enough people to win a modern presidential race and even if they did it doesn’t mean they’d be able to get what we want done. Politics is strategic and is ALWAYS going to be about finding the common ground that is the better option, not the perfect option, and that option is never, ever going to be a black and white “not evil” option.
Every chance you get vote for our left wing populist candidates and other progressives, by all means. And protest and cause a fuss to move the window as much as you’re able. But when it comes to final votes, be strategic or be irrelevant and impotent.
I have never seen “strategic voting” to work. No in FPTP systems, not in relative systems with multiple parties.
It is a divide and conquer tactic. At the end of the day there is no representation of which votes were “strategic” and which votes were in support of policy. So the party/candidate will always assume this to be his full mandate to do what he wants. All you do is invalidating your voice as something to be glossed over.
Also notice how the fascists don’t vote strategically? They keep voting fascist and they keep pushing fascist and with that they move everything in the political window closer towards them. In my country in one state everybody voted the “conservative” far right populist party to avoid the fascist party to come out strongest. What is the result? 5 years of far right politics that strengthened the fascist parties positions and they are set to win that state “by a landslide” next time or alternatively the only coalition option to be fascists+“conservatives”.
If you want a progressive party your best bet is morphing the DNC into one. Look at the RNC right now, they changed the party starting from a grass roots movement. The change is shite but that’s how they did it. They also had lots and lots of funding from outside sources (see: murdoch)
End the day, you want a progressive party you have to change the face of the democratic party. How do you do that, you take over government on a local and state level and then you pursue the executive branch. Don’t believe me ask the 1000000 3rd party’s that have come and gone being jam fisted in place to serve as a spoiler then forgotten about.
Could do so much more if we changed the way we voted. Fptp has to go.
Progress isn’t possible because people who want progress refuse to unite under a concerted effort to make it happen.
I agree with most of what you say about Biden (he’s been more progressive than his Democratic predecessors, though that’s a pretty low bar), but this statement just isn’t true. Progressives showed up in 2020 to elect Biden, even though the DNC screwed over Bernie in the primaries. Despite what people believe, the youth vote was nearly as high for Hillary as it was for Obama, and more moderates went to Trump than Clinton. Progressives of course showed up Obama, since he ran a progressive campaign, but he governed in the center (his foreign and security policy was just right-wing).
The problem isn’t that the people who want progress don’t unite under a single banner. The progressives are always forced to unite under the Democrats’ centrist banner, and then those same centrist block the progress. Take Biden’s infrastructure plan; Manchin and Sinema made sure that all of the most progressive elements were stripped out of that plan. Progressives (like members of the squad) refused to vote for it without those provisions, but they were browbeaten by the centrist Dems who promised that those provisions would be passed soon in separate legislation. The progressives relented and that separate legislation was quickly abandoned.
The progressives always unite with the centrists, they rarely get anything to show for it, and they are constantly blamed for the centrists’ loses. If this is the election where the progressives finally stop showing up for the centrists (and don’t get me wrong, Trump is openly planning a fascist coup, so I pray to God it isn’t), the blame should be on the centrists for 3 nearly decades of broken promises to progressives, not progressives who, “refuse to unite.”
My perspective is, and i might just be reiterating what you have said, they unite under democrats then expect them to be progressives. It’s just not going to happen. Yes the democrats will appease them and that is awesome progress but it won’t be enough, for sure. There needs to be a concerted effort to make a change that progressives can build on. To me that is ranked choice voting or just plain getting rid of FPTP how ever you do it. The answer isn’t to abandon the progress we’ve made, though, it’s to expand on it.
Then I guess I don’t understand what your point is. Young people need to go out and vote for the Democrats instead in order to make any progress, but they can’t expect to Democrats to actually be progressive, but the Democrats will appease them (even though it really doesn’t seem that way)…I’m really not following. Is your point that progressives need to unite behind the Democrats and keep pushing them if they’re ever going to make progress? Because my point is that progressives have been uniting behind the Democrats in every major election and the Democrats actively block real progress.
Well, I’m old enough to remember when Joe Manchin killed the Build Back Better Act, when Barack Obama decided to bailout the banks and not mortgage holders, when Bill Clinton gutted welfare…the party went center-left (debatably center-right on some issues) back in the 90s because they decided that would be a better path to victory. If that’s their strategy, fine, but then they aren’t entitled to progressive votes.
And again, to his credit, I think Biden has tried harder than all of his predecessors to earn progressive votes: rescheduling marijuana, attempting go cancel student debt, proposing the BBB. He’s certainly realized that he can’t take progressive turnout for granted, much more than his party has. But Gaza is an albatross around his neck, and it’s not the college protesters he needs to be worried about, it’s the 300,000 Palestinian-Americans that are about to hand Michigan to Trump.
you’re not the only voter, dipshit. they have to cater to a large swathe of opinions and demographics. i know you surround yourself with little parrots until you think your voice is a chorus, but it’s not. BE REALISTIC, CHILDREN.
So you are saying the majority of americans are in support of Israels genocide? Then why are the opinion polls show the literal opposite? Especially among people who tend to be Dem voters?
Why are you shilling for a genocide, instead of helping the Dems get more votes by doing what the majority of the American people want?
All I’m saying is nothing is worth letting DJT get elected. Some dems still support Biden regardless of this issue. Don’t let young, impressionable voters get distracted by focusing on what he’s failing to do. If we amplify the finger pointing at him, it might lead some people to vote third party or abstain.
As “funny” as this might be, if you don’t fucking vote Biden you’re likely voting for a huge world wide change off a cliff. If Trump wins, then your precious Gaza will be wiped out or whatever similar words he used. And that is just the start. His claims, he wants to be a dictator, the 2025 document basically wishes the US to become Gilead, and lots more fun stuff.
Seriously, maybe this might be slightly panicky, but these are things that are in all seriousness claimed by the Republican party and Trump. That is what you will be voting for if you don’t vote Biden , so how about you shut the . up for now about this, at least until after the elections?
On a side note, I can guarantee you that these groups end up receiving funding from Russia and whatnot. Not that they do that willingly or knowingly, but with Russia continuously meddling in US politics, you can rest assured that Putin won’t sit by while this is happening, he needs his useful idiot in US power.
Cool, now do Biden’s hard-line position!! Only one of these guys is currently in power with his foot on the genocide gas pedal and nobody here seems to want to do anything to stop it! Absolute horse shit if you ask me
Question, who should someone who wants to end the genocide, vote for? What is your suggestion? How and why would that vote change the situation for the better? How likelihood is the desired outcome?
You should be protesting against the war and show solidarity with others doing the same
Panic posting about protestors endangering an election is counter effectual; if you want to help you can start by keeping your mouth shut about the election in the context of the protest.
Thanks for the advice but it doesn’t answer my questions.
It also ignores the context of the conversation. The commenter seems to be implying that you shouldn’t vote for Biden. And I would like to hear their suggestion.
There is no option to end the genocide on the ballot in November, that’s the point. Your time is better spent pushing one of the options that is on the ballot towards ending support.
I am happy to see your passion. And I agree with you but I am asking the person, whom I should be voting for in their opinion. I want to hear THEIR opinion. Thanks.
You understand that responding in Public to a public discourse is the default unless you want to hide something.
Blaming me for “wasting everyone’s time” for asking someone else a question in public in response to that person’s public statement, how odd.
How is it leading and disingenuous to ask someone about their opinion on an issue? Especially if I don’t limit their options what so ever. I guess it is leading if you already think it is disingenuous, which would raise the question “what makes you think that?”. But I don’t want to waste your time like you wasted mine and everyone else’s by responding to a question that you didn’t attempt to even answer and wasn’t asked to you either.
If you don’t want someone else answering your open question on a public forum, then don’t place that question on an open forum. Doing so makes it look like you’re not actually asking the question so that it’s answered, you’re asking it to score rhetorical points against an opponent.
But I don’t want to waste your time like you wasted mine and everyone else’s by responding to a question that you didn’t attempt to even answer and wasn’t asked to you either.
Lmao, idk I think I did answer it, you just didn’t like it because it wasn’t within the binary you were trying to frame the issue through (even though you totally weren’t trying to ‘limit their options what so ever’)
But I don’t want to waste your time like you wasted mine
If you think i’m wasting your time you can block me.
I asked for whom to vote from a ending the genocide perspective and why that. You “answered” by telling me what I should be doing outside of voting.
That is like someone asks you how they could fix their dietary habits and you tell them to do sports. Sports are probably a good advice but it isn’t helping them to fix their dietary habits. It is missing the point. It isn’t answering the question.
I am not gonna bother with your rhetorical points insult, as it is based in the assumption that I don’t want an answer because I don’t accept answers that fail to answer the question.
Whether or not, a question is answered, is a pretty binary issue. but I think you mean the election with 7(?) candidates. Of which I would accept any as a response, if one was given. I am not sure about how that is binary though.
Oh the wasting time stuff was to point out the absurd nature of your impaction that I am wasting anyone’s time by asking a question that they can ignore, compared to bothering someone who is actively looking for an answer with non-answers.
I asked for whom to vote from a ending the genocide perspective and why that. You “answered” by telling me what I should be doing outside of voting.
Because you can’t end a genocide by voting, that’s why it’s a disingenuous question and I think you know that. You can leverage a vote to push for it, but none of the candidates are beholden to doing jack shit once they’re actually in office even if they claim to support ending it, so the best course of action is to pressure the one that’s in office now.
That’s the point of those of us who say it doesn’t matter who you vote for in the context of ending Palestinian genocide - it wouldn’t change the outcome without outside action regardless.
wasting anyone’s time by asking a question that they can ignore, compared to bothering someone who is actively looking for an answer with non-answers.
You’re wasting people’s time who would happily explain the perspective to you if not for the deliberate attempt to frame the question around electoral politics.
Mate, I would agree with you if you wouldn’t fail to realize that I ask someone who made a statement regarding the election in the context of ending the genocide. Acting like I set the scene, is dishonest. I am sure you aren’t doing it intentional. You just forgot.
And you are right and wrong about being unable about ending a genocide by voting. You are also kinda unable to end it by protesting… Until it actually works. It is an attempt. An attempt is something and something is better than nothing while people die.
Also let’s not act like saying you wouldn’t vote for Biden over it isn’t pressuring the current one in power.
And you might also should have realized that in my question I asked included the likelihood of the desired outcome. So I had the whole breaking election promises, betting on the wrong horse and it all being fucking pointless covered.
And btw. Now you gave me an answer to my question from your perspective, it doesn’t matter because it doesn’t change shit. In other words, vote for whoever you want for other reasons. I know your opinion and I got my answer from you. Still not the guy that I asked but at least an answer.
Also let’s not act like saying you wouldn’t vote for Biden over it isn’t pressuring the current one in power.
I’m assuming you didn’t intend the double negative and actually meant “let’s not act like saying you wouldn’t vote for Biden over it is pressuring the current one in power”, and I would point to any centrist media commentary on the protests where the pundits are freaking the fuck out over the threat of this issue sinking Biden’s reelection. The protests and agitation keeps the focus on the issue and keeps the pressure on the administration to address it. Anything that threatens Biden’s chances puts pressure and urgency on him to address the issue, including threatening not to vote for him (and encouraging others to join the cause in solidarity).
Still not the guy that I asked but at least an answer.
What makes that guy so special that his response is the only one that matters to you? Really sounds like you’re trying to bait him into a debate, bud.
It is that simple. I heard you out too. I just wanted to highlight that you choose to engage with my question to another person. Highlighting how extremely odd this interaction is. I asked another person a question. You chose to engage that question but you avoided answering while insulting me. In the end, you finally express your opinion. I had to point out that you finally answered the question that was the starting point of our conversation that you chose to engage with, in hopes you realize that I actually want an fucking answer and that i ain’t asking for much of an discussion or proof standard but just a fucking opinion. and again you could have just avoided it completely, you chose to engage.
Do you prefer genocide or more genocide and the end of democracy? That’s where we are at right now
Explain how it is that this is actually where we are at.
And, if this is actually where we are at, then why should any of us want to maintain such a system? Shouldn’t a system that is reliant on genocide be dismantled? Isn’t that the entire point of the Nuremberg Trials?
Russia is funding and arming a fascist movement against the Americans. And you diminish this abimination. /s
Man, it’s so easy to make someone sound bad when you purposefully misrepresent what they said. You didn’t actually engage with them. You only tried to make them sound evil, even though they’re advocating for protecting Palestinians as much as we possibly can. Please stop this garbage.
Please read the comment and explain how the person was “advocating for protecting Palestinians as much as we possibly can.”
To me it sounds like they don’t care about them at all, and see them as nothing more than an inconvenience in getting Biden reelected. Which is the mainstream Dem position
Comment is reposted below for your convenience:
“As “funny” as this might be, if you don’t fucking vote Biden you’re likely voting for a huge world wide change off a cliff. If Trump wins, then your precious Gaza will be wiped out or whatever similar words he used. And that is just the start. His claims, he wants to be a dictator, the 2025 document basically wishes the US to become Gilead, and lots more fun stuff.
Seriously, maybe this might be slightly panicky, but these are things that are in all seriousness claimed by the Republican party and Trump. That is what you will be voting for if you don’t vote Biden , so how about you shut the . up for now about this, at least until after the elections?
On a side note, I can guarantee you that these groups end up receiving funding from Russia and whatnot. Not that they do that willingly or knowingly, but with Russia continuously meddling in US politics, you can rest assured that Putin won’t sit by while this is happening, he needs his useful idiot in US power.”
so how about you shut the . up for now about this, at least until after the elections?
I can guarantee you that these groups end up receiving funding from Russia and whatnot
You can fuck ALL the way off with that bullshit. Libs like this are going to guarantee low turnout if they keep callously screaming shit like this to people who feel strongly about not being party to butchering children.
Instead of threatening and blaming voters you should be threatening and blaming the administration for alienating and disenfranchising millions of voters who would otherwise vote for him.
people who feel strongly about not being party to butchering children
You think Trump taking the white house is going to change that? The only difference enabling republicans is going to make is how much things are going to get worse.
Conservative voters aren’t bound by the same morals. They don’t abstain because their leaders are causing suffering.
Look, I’m not willing to write a book for you about how complex the US alliance is with Israel and the Middle east. I’m also not going to justify the current genocide that’s happening at the hands of Israel.
But I will say that it’s not as simple as telling Israel to stop. The idea that Biden is openly endorsing genocide is a political cudgel that bad actors use to frame the whole situation as if Biden has a magical stop button he just doesn’t want to press.
The reality is that Israel can have this alliance with a number of first world countries and chooses to keep relations with the states, which in turn gives the US a political foothold in a region that is essentially completely hostile.
If not for that relationship being upheld, Israel would buy their weapons from China or Russia instead, and the genocide would continue without the US even having the ability to stymie it, like they are currently trying to do.
Biden isn’t genocidal. He’s doing what he can without destroying an alliance that keeps things from getting a lot worse. Which is a far cry from what Trump wants, which is for Israel to just nuke the strip and get it over with.
I’m not willing to write a book for you about how complex the US alliance is with Israel and the Middle east.
You don’t need to, I already understand the US’s interest in Israel. The problem is that none of the interests the US has in the ME are worth enabling a genocide against a colonized people, and I suspect that is exactly why nobody actually wants to spend the effort explaining it in defense of the US’s diplomatic stance toward Israel. When it comes to international conflict and hostile action around the world, the democrats are just as bad or worse than their republican counterparts, and having that highlighted by making a case for keeping diplomatic ties with a nation conducting a genocide would make that abundantly clear.
which in turn gives the US a political foothold in a region that is essentially completely hostile.
If not for that relationship being upheld, Israel would buy their weapons from China or Russia instead, and the genocide would continue without the US even having the ability to stymie it, like they are currently trying to do.
Israel benefits greatly from US support and defense, so much so that any replacement wouldn’t be the same (especially when both Russia and China are involved in other conflicts already). I don’t think this line of reasoning is particularly convincing. But even then, there are also sanctions and the ICC to put pressure to put an end to the genocide, it isn’t limited to defense aid.
The idea that Biden is openly endorsing genocide is a political cudgel that bad actors use to frame the whole situation as if Biden has a magical stop button he just doesn’t want to press.
Worse, he openly denies it’s even happening even though he knows full well Israel has been conducting war crimes in Gaza. I don’t think it’s bad faith to accuse him of endorsement when he continues defending Israel when he knows full well they’ve been breaking international law (as well as butchering palestinian children), but I’ll admit he hasn’t said those words out loud.
the democrats are just as bad or worse than their republican counterparts
You’re not seriously suggesting that modern Republicans are going to handle this situation better? Aside from the very obvious point that they stated their intent about Israel just finishing them off, the only perspective that Republicans are better at foreign relations at all is from that of an isolationist, which is not what we are.
That region is hostile toward the US and western alliance for very valid reasons.
I didn’t say we aren’t at fault for that hostility, I meant to express that the middle east is hostile in general, to each other, particularly to Israel and especially to western nations.
Israel benefits greatly from US support and defense, so much so that any replacement wouldn’t be the same
It doesn’t have to be the same to build relationships that would effectively seek to cut the US from the process altogether. Otherwise the US would have much more influence over situations like this and a magic stop button might actually exist.
Worse, he openly denies it’s even happening even though he knows full well Israel has been conducting war crimes in Gaza
This is simply not true and a manipulative way of framing the diplomacy that goes into maintaining relationships between nations. It’s completely dishonest to decide that Biden is pro genocide because he won’t say the word genocide. It took 7 years for the US to officially recognize the Chinese genocide, and they are our enemies. It took a year and a half for the US to file war crime charges against Russia, and we sent Ukraine several billion in aid during that period. And those are just recent examples. Genocides typically take decades to be recognized by the US regardless of what the relationship is between the countries.
The hard truth is that it’s completely irrational to throw away any influence the US might have and burn those bridges for the singular purpose of a actioning a label that has no tangible effect by itself. It’s essentially virtue signaling on a national level.
I think personally that Israel shouldn’t see a red cent from the US until they at least cease hostility and come to the negotiation table, and demanding that probably won’t be a deal breaker for our alliance. But I also don’t have several decades of experience dealing with this exact conflict from the perspective of the US.
Basing your entire political opinion on a conceptual label that historically doesn’t happen quickly is rash at the very least, and damaging on a national level when you consider what the alternative is.
Conservative voters don’t care about this shit show. They will turn out to vote no matter what, and they will vote for war mongers that also actively want to degrade society in the US, and absolutely won’t be recognizing the Palestinian genocide.
You’re not seriously suggesting that modern Republicans are going to handle this situation better?
I’m saying the US has committed atrocities under both parties, and that by some metrics, democratic administrations have engaged in more brutal bombing campaigns than republican led administrations - important to remember Truman was the one who dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Republicans are certainly louder and more blusterous about it, but for any American that is ashamed of our history of violence and subterfuge abroad, they can take no more comfort from democratic leadership than republicans. (I would be wise to point out that is not any kind of endorsement). It isn’t just the current conflict in Gaza or Ukraine. Frankly, to their credit, least republicans are transparent about their chauvinism. I could hardly say the same about Biden.
The hard truth is that it’s completely irrational to throw away any influence the US might have and burn those bridges for the singular purpose of a actioning a label that has no tangible effect by itself.
If Americans believe themselves to be arbitors of justice and democracy abroad, then allowing and materially supporting one of the most significant atrocities against Palestinians since the Nakba is a damning counterfactual to that image. If we don’t maintain foreign relationships to prevent atrocities like the one we are now participating in (naive to ever think that is the case), then at some point you have to think there is some other morally-abhorrent (or at least morally-unconcerned) interest that should be re-evaluated anyway.
If we align ourselves with nations that brazenly commit genocide without fear of repurcussion, then what does that say about the US?
“Every man is like the company he is wont to keep.” - Euripides
But I also don’t have several decades of experience dealing with this exact conflict from the perspective of the US.
You shouldn’t be so comfortable with that assumption of innocence.
They will turn out to vote no matter what, and they will vote for war mongers that also actively want to degrade society in the US, and absolutely won’t be recognizing the Palestinian genocide.
All the more reason to be screaming at Democrats that they risk losing support if they maintain their diplomatic stances. They’ve grown too complacent in their support from leftists, and the chickens finally seem to be coming home to roost.
Frankly, to their credit, least republicans are transparent about their chauvinism. I could hardly say the same about Biden.
Does it make sense to lower the bar for republicans simply because they are honest about their brutality?
If we align ourselves with nations that brazenly commit genocide without fear of repurcussion, then what does that say about the US?
And if we sit out we lose the ability to influence the situation at all to parties who are comfortable just outright killing off entire peoples. Sticking our nose in the air and saying “We won’t be part of it” is not the solution you might think it is.
You shouldn’t be so comfortable with that assumption of innocence
I’m not making an assumption of innocence, I’m acknowledging that without experience my take on the subject should be considered that of a layman, just like any take that isn’t born out of a complete picture of the situation. On the contrary to your accusation of a simplistic view that the US has pure intentions, what I’m saying is that short of a degree or several years experience dealing with this conflict first hand, any conclusions a person might jump to about this situation in the first place are going to be simple and incomplete.
I’m not insinuating we should trust the government to handle it in a way that doesn’t perpetuate genocide, because they clearly aren’t doing that. I’m just pointing out that the public zeitgeist on this conflict is based on knee jerk reactions to complex political moves.
The prime example of that being leftists angry at Biden for not pressing a “stop genocide button” that functionally doesn’t exist.
All the more reason to be screaming at Democrats that they risk losing support if they maintain their diplomatic stances. They’ve grown too complacent in their support from leftists, and the chickens finally seem to be coming home to roost.
I’m with you on that, but there doesn’t seem to be an easy way out that doesn’t rely on the democratic platform just magically changing. Is it worth handing over our democracy to a party that might well destroy it just to teach the other party a lesson?
Does it make sense to lower the bar for republicans simply because they are honest about their brutality?
No, but it doesn’t increase the material harm they inflict, either.
And if we sit out we lose the ability to influence the situation at all to parties who are comfortable just outright killing off entire peoples.
Are we simply choosing which genocides we’re comfortable with according to what material benefits we gain or lose from them? The US doesn’t deserve that influence if that’s true. I’m of the opinion that the US weilds outsized influence already, and the world would stand to benefit from a bit more multi-polarity.
I’m with you on that, but there doesn’t seem to be an easy way out that doesn’t rely on the democratic platform just magically changing. Is it worth handing over our democracy to a party that might well destroy it just to teach the other party a lesson?
There’s nothing magic about changing any political platform, and it’s certainly not about voting it into reality. It takes years of effort and organizing, and at times it requires a willingness to cause discomfort to those who gatekeep progress. I’m not telling anyone to abstain from voting, but Biden should know that’s a distinct possibility should he stay on his current course. We’ll continue pushing for BDS in the meantime, and hopefully Biden makes a choice so that it doesn’t come down to who’s taking office come January.
No, but it doesn’t increase the material harm they inflict, either.
Well yes. That’s because the method of decreasing the material harm done by republicans is to make sure they don’t come to power in the first place. I understand that we have to hold democrats to a higher standard for that reason, but threatening them with putting republicans back in the driver’s seat is creating more harm. It’s not a great solution when the goal is ultimately less harm.
Are we simply choosing which genocides we’re comfortable with according to what material benefits we gain or lose from them?
Are you suggesting that we as a nation are simply comfortable with genocide? Because enough of us aren’t that there are protests and falling approval of democrats in general. The government also clearly isn’t comfortable with the ridiculous position it puts them in of aiding both the genocidal nation and the people being killed. The US is trying to stop this without pulling rank and pissing Israel off. They’re going so far as to halt shipments of ammunition as of yesterday. I don’t think it’s fair to say that the US is just doing nothing.
None of us are comfortable with genocide. But it also doesn’t take a political savant to understand that just flipping the table and walking away isn’t going to solve anything. The problem doesn’t go away if we decide not to fund Israel. They will get the funding elsewhere from countries that want the US’s seat at the table, and the only net change is that we lose that seat.
Where as it stands, there’s a significant chance pressure from the US is going to put a stop to this conflict at some point.
It takes years of effort and organizing, and at times it requires a willingness to cause discomfort to those who gatekeep progress
The big question is how do you pressure a platform to change without threatening the level of destruction to our democracy that the other party advertises daily? And without the threat of losing the election, what reason does the democratic platform have to change?
The concept that we are demanding change and threatening the stability of our democracy to achieve that change seems counterintuitive considering that the change will come in the form of actual fascism, not democratic reform.
hopefully Biden makes a choice so that it doesn’t come down to who’s taking office come January.
Hopefully. I think the dissonance that the “vote blue no matter who” people have is that the white house going red is too steep a price, and maybe not something we can recover from. Last time it happened we functionally lost our Supreme Court for the next several decades. Is teaching the democrats this lesson worth the profound structural degredation of the system?
But it also doesn’t take a political savant to understand that just flipping the table and walking away isn’t going to solve anything.
That’s not what anyone is suggesting. Stop covering from them at the UN and ICC, sanction officials and settlers in the west bank, implement BDS, publicly condemn their war crimes instead of deflecting and casting doubt on reporting. Nobody is suggesting we flip the table. It isn’t just the US’s support they risk losing, if the US starts putting pressure the other OECD nations will follow.
Where as it stands, there’s a significant chance pressure from the US is going to put a stop to this conflict at some point.
Yup… so what’s the disagreement again?
The big question is how do you pressure a platform to change without threatening the level of destruction to our democracy that the other party advertises daily?
I don’t think you do. There’s a reason Marxists discuss revolutionary theory: some systems of power are so entrenched that it takes the threat of revolutionary violence to change them. For what it’s worth, I don’t think this particular issue requires revolutionary violence, but the longer democrats resist taking action the more apparent it becomes that more leverage is needed.
You might have missed the connection. Putting too much pressure on Israel is just going to see Israel cut ties and go elsewhere. If OECD countries begin threatening support, hostile nations will begin shopping to replace them.
It isn’t just a function of whether the US decides to exit this conflict. By picking a fight with Israel, there is a distinct possibility that the US gets forcibly removed and replaced. Hence why making a bold and alienating move like condemnation is akin to flipping the table. It’s like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Too much pressure is not something that is going to stabilize the situation. Again, that’s why a magical stop button doesn’t functionally exist. The right amount of pressure will make progress, and is currently doing that.
some systems of power are so entrenched that it takes the threat of revolutionary violence to change them
The problem isn’t that the system needs to be replaced, because we’ve been due for that since Reagan. The problem is that the current active climate of “violent revolutionaries” are right wing fascists, not leftists. If this system topples, it won’t be in favor of a better system. In fact, it’s so baked into our political climate at this point that Republicans are campaigning on ruining the electoral process so they can sieze power.
The scales of who is willing to take power by force have been tipping to the right pretty hard lately. The thing that’s stopping that from becoming reality is the very pretense of the system we are postulating the need to threaten to overthrow.
The thing that’s stopping that from becoming reality is the very pretense of the system we are postulating the need to threaten to overthrow.
I’m not advocating overthrowing the system, I’m pushing for a single change in international policy. I’m not an accelerationist, I don’t want violent revolution to happen. All i’m pushing for at the moment is that democrats recognize the landscape has shifted underneath them and react to it, and there’s certainly time left to do that.
The problem is that the current active climate of “violent revolutionaries” are right wing fascists, not leftists.
This claim bothers me, because if it’s true and the democrats know this, then they need to be taking more action against it than just running it as a campaign message. If i’m being honest; I think right-ring extremists are too larpy to be effective revolutionaries anyway. They’re far more effective as brownshirt-type paramilitaries, aligned with the state and not against it. So creedance to the threat of republicans taking power again (to an extent), but they’re already out and in force now against anti-war protestors, and the dems seem all too happy letting them run out in front of the police when it’s convenient. I think liberals tend to miss-identify the threat of fascism within their own party, and I think it’s definitely present now.
The two silver linings i see right now are:
young leftists are getting lots of practice of organized resistance, even against open opposition from their own party and law enforcement. I’ve been very impressed with the strategic deployments of peaceful agitation and their organization
the leftist coalition is growing in number, thanks in part to the anti-war protests and the openly hostile response from the democratic party
While I don’t know what happens come november, I know that we will be the most organized we’ve ever been for whatever comes after.
That’s not quite what I’m getting at either. It’s the threat of bringing dems out of power that, if we successfully carry through, has a real chance at degrading our democracy. Just like it did last time republicans took power.
But the threat of Republicans taking power is necessary to spur change from democrats. If we vote blue no matter what every single time, there won’t be a platform change because democrats will do what they’ve been doing for the last two decades and assume the fear of Republicans is enough to get them elected.
So how do we spur democrats to change without giving republicans an open door to waltz in?
if it’s true and the democrats know this, then they need to be taking more action against it than just running it as a campaign message
Democrats have lost their teeth. They won’t actually do something about it because they’re afraid of that Republicans will use whatever is done for retaliation, which they will.
As an aside, I live in Louisiana where the governor’s seat turned red for the first time in 8 years. The blue governor was a good temper against the crazier laws our supermajority red congress tried passing.
Now that there’s no obstacle, our red congress is revenge passing everything they can to take marginalized groups’ rights away and now they’re talking about rewriting the state constitution to allow for even more restrictive laws.
And they’re doing it to spite democrats who’ve stopped them for almost a decade.
All this to say that democrats don’t do enough where it matters because they have to keep a base happy that actually judges them on their actions. Republicans’ conservative base eats up rage bait and cheers for suffering, so they always have the upper hand in that arena.
I think liberals tend to miss-identify the threat of fascism within their own party, and I think it’s definitely present now
Oh absolutely. I mean, democrats are responding to nationwide protests by making it a form of hate speech. We’re there.
I hope you’re right about young people being willing to organize despite the system, because it’s gonna be rough if the worst happens in November.
On the side, thanks for actually engaging me and discussing my thoughts. You could have been an asshole, and I just want to say I appreciate that you weren’t.
It’s a nice break away from the never ending trolling I seem to encounter. So thank you.
Biden is fallible, end of story. The guy has a shit track record, signing onto all sorts of shit that has made this country worse. We could talk till we are blue in the face about how shitty the two party system is but you assholes (idealists) seem to only show up around election time then disappear after everyone has to eat the shit sandwich we end up with.
but you assholes (idealists) seem to only show up around election time then disappear after everyone has to eat the shit sandwich we end up with.
We’ve always been here, and we’ve always been the ones eating the shit sandwich. We just suddenly become relevant around election time when the libs are looking for someone to scapegoat for their failing electoral strategy.
Where were you in 2021 when I was shit talking Biden all over the internet and getting shut down at every turn? Where were you 2022 with the same result? 2023 I said fuck it and went to lemmy.
2024 all the sudden, “you know that Biden guy kinda sucks.”
LMAO First: fuck off Second: are you counting your ‘shit-talking biden online’ as a ‘movement’? Third: I work with my local DSA chapter for political organization, who do you work with?
Fourth: fuck off
W/e you’re so morally superior but somehow can’t see the forest through the trees.
Yeah we have been here the whole time, y’all just been ignoring us especially when the truths we were speaking were inconvenient for your strategies of shaping your world view purely off an averaging function of other people’s views around you rather than a serious, adult intellectual understanding of human rights, the military industrial complex, late stage capitalism and colonialism.
See here’s the thing, most of us “radical leftists” care so deeply about doing the right thing that we have kept supporting y’all because you are usually less violent in policy making than Republicans. In return, you insult us for not showing up for elections we show up for, you laugh at us for being weird and eccentric when you are drunk with your Republican friends even though we are by far the highest energy and most impactful grass roots organizers in your coalition, you call us betrayers of the cause when we make your shitty candidates deal with aspects of their policies that are extremely problematic, you talk about us to the general public like we are below the moral level of conservatives who our political ideologies are specifically founded on a basis that the hate within conservatism of all kinds is the root of violence and suffering.
It’s over, the fact that Biden won’t even budge about the genocide of Palestinians when the raw US poll numbers send a clear signal of support for Palestinians, and no especial attachment to Israel is very very very close to making the progressive coalition with the Democratic Party an extinct species. Y’all will yell at us on the TV about how this was our fault when your political strategies catastrophically fail, as you have always done, but the difference this time is we shut the TVs off a long time ago and are out organizing your shitty belief system out of power so it can’t hurt more people.
So it will be that it leftists will be the ones organizing the evacuation of the ship and getting people into life boats while y’all will have gone to get the captain to come down and make us stop violating the orderly rules of command on the ship, and then when you finally comprehend the sea about to swallow you up you will scream it was our fault the ship sunk (that y’all never let us captain for even a second even though you let your rightwing friends drive the ship all the time even when you were technically supposed to be on the helm).
How very self righteous you are. So willing to throw the country in turmoil for a cause you cannot even mitigate with all the tools of democracy at your disposal.
No, I don’t believe anyone will be lining up behind you.
Edit:
And before you say, “this will be different.” The question is how?
The conservatives don’t just disappear because authoritarianism had taken root. The centrist don’t suddenly feel inspired to leave behind convenience for a cause they will never see the benefits of.
Nope. You have a choice, and that is slow steady change of compromise and hard fought battles where the line sways ever further right; or you let go and the true molestation of your rights begins.
But who am I to be the person to let you in on the secrets of the ages. You can experience it yourself when you let the gaurd die and project 2025 goes live. Then you yourself also get to come to terms with the fact that your own morals and never compromising idealism is simply crushed under the weight of societies group think. Forgetting that once you had a hint of a voice that you could cast into the abyss but now you lay silent as it engulfs everything.
That is exactly what you will be yelling as the water is about to smash through the portholes of the ship and you will be UTTERLY convinced it was my fault lol.
If Biden wants my vote, he can call up Netanyahu and stop the genocide.
No, you idiot. You don’t know a fucking thing about me. I will blame the conservatives because they are fucking malicious. You, you’re just stupid. A useful idiot, if you will.
Track record so shit his administration has been responsible for some of the biggest labor wins in the last half century. NLRB ruling anyone. Or them Banning non-compete agreements. Or maybe the fact that they just fucking rescheduled marijuana. Or all the debt relief they provided. Or the manufacturing that they are bringing back to the United states. That one still work in progress. Or the fact that if it wasn’t for one of Biden’s patented gas we may not have marriage equality at all still. None of it’s perfect all of it could have been better. But in arguably all of them are wins.
It’s easy to forget or not to even be aware of all this from all the well-funded bourgeoisie propaganda. And the accelerationist Virtue signaling LARPing leftists. Who don’t have any suggestions Solutions or alternatives. Just hyperbolically attacking Biden and outright lying about him while down playing genocide. Putting things in a bit of perspective in the 2020 primaries. Biden was my second to last choice on the Democrat side. The only candidate I place below him was culty tulsy. He’s far exceeded all my expectations. Granted they were exceedingly low. He hasn’t shit his pants yet. Though he shit bed hard with regards to his Israel policy optics. It’s only slightly less ridiculous than all the blame people are giving him for it though. Regardless of whether or not he expedited the weapons they would have still been sent to Israel. Congress is the one responsible for it. No matter how much people want him to cut funds going to Israel he can’t. That’s congress’s job. But I don’t see anyone putting pressure on Congress or Mike Johnson in that regard. Just a lot of fake concern about biden.
I agree with everything you said. I’m just thinking back to the primaries and if we look at Bidens long history he is responsible for some stupid shit. I won’t go over it now, you probably already know. We even knew his stance on Isreal in 2020 and no one said shit until it became reality. Like, if Biden said, “I’m going to nuke the shit out of anyone who attacks the US” then you elect him and someone attacks the US guess what’s going to happen. Oh, but then we know and we will just elect someone different next time. Guess what, next time the alternative wants to indiscriminately nuke everyone for no reason at all.
I digress. Biden is the consequence of our collective actions as a nation. These fools who keep falling for what ever divide and concur scheme the right hatches are just that. Fools.
Only an idiot would abstain or vote for Trump all because of this issue. Biden is a shit president, but he’s worlds better than Trump has been, or could ever be.
This said, I agree that OP can fuck off with some of that language. The protests need to call Biden out. Bonus points for calling both candidates out, though. They’ve both chosen the wrong side of this.
you should be threatening and blaming the administration for alienating and disenfranchising millions of voters who would otherwise vote for him.
I’m talking about these people who would otherwise vote for him. The ones who will, by not voting for Biden, increase the changes of a worse outcome for something they claim to care about.
But hey, their conscience will be clear not having voted for Biden, right?
Conscience has something to do with guilt and blame, doesn’t it? It at least deals with the attribution of harm, and my point is that attributing the ‘increase in chances of harm’ to protestors a bit misplaced, since it’s Biden who has the agency to act against Israel, not the protestors.
The protestors are simply modeling the behavior they want to see from Biden: withhold support (or threaten to do so) from Israel until some concession is made. Either Israel will relent or we’ll reduce their ability to continue their assault on Gaza.
I agree that everyone should vote Biden in November, but no… this can’t wait until then. Biden needs to address this, and he’s absolutely earning the nickname we see here by failing to do so.
He didn’t start this mess, and we probably can’t abandon Israel as an ally for a myriad of tactical and political reasons… But we can and should address the weapons being sent over regularly.
You know who could very quickly win those voters back and make sure he wins in a landslide? Joe Biden. And you know what is all that he has to do for it? Stop sending weapons and money to Israel. This is already what the US laws mandate by the way. So all he has to do is uphold US laws he is currently breaking
Bonus points for recognizing Palestine internationally and getting Israeli war criminals in front of the ICC.
Why are you blaming the victims of Bidens politics instead of Biden, who has all the power to change these things right now?
This lime of thinking is all well and good. We should be holding Biden accountable for what tragedies we endorse on the world stage.
But the answer is not enabling a much worse monster to take his place. Especially considering the monster in question has a unilaterally worse stance on almost everything we are currently upset with Biden about.
It’s not as black and white as justification of not voting because “Biden could win you/them back”. We are on a sinking ship, and even though Biden could be doing more to patch it up, Trump is actively advocating for a bigger hole.
So, people just broadly don’t understand the concept of a protest vote, huh? If people don’t even understand that, then oy vey, we’re fuckin cooked lads I dunno what to tell yous, the democracy is already dead. Even beyond just first past the post voting, and all the shit that everyone knows is cooked but also knows will never get fixed. To the point that people can’t even like, understand strategic voting or the contexts in which it might happen. Just a flat incurious blanket creed screamed at opposition with no consideration for applications or the intricacies of how our democracies work.
Like I dunno, we’re cooked. Even if biden stopped being a shitheel and funding israel, or full tilted in the other direction and at least tried to apply the brakes instead of going above and beyond to accelerate it, he has to realize that all faith in his institution would be like, totally shot, right? Like, that everyone would just expect him to restart it again immediately after the election, with four extra years of basically no accountability for israel to “mow the lawn”? Or I guess in this place, rip out the lawn and replace it with more parking or whatever. Like, the strategy here has to be one of appealing to a kind of core bloodthirsty liberal base that will support the genocide even across bipartisan lines, because that’s what his actions would say. But then, that doesn’t make any sense at all, because his admin keeps leaking shit about how he’s so broken up over the fact that this is happening and oh no bros he wishes he could do more and his little heart just can’t take it.
I dunno. We’re so cooked from every angle. If Biden was going to stop, now would be the moment at which he would. It’s right before an election, there’s mass protests that are getting headlined. Maybe the pressure and violence of those protest might increase, but we’re just about getting to the point where the news cycle has probably chewed them up, and we’re also getting to the point, as far as I’ve seen, where gaza is so bombed out that images of it aren’t making it out as much as they used to, on top of the media already having worked it’s way through that. If Biden was gonna drop it, it’s around this point. If he still hasn’t and we’ve reached like actual election season, right, then there’s not really any amount of pressure that would’ve caused him to drop it, he would’ve clearly signaled by that point that israel killing people is more important to him than winning the presidency, or keeping trump from winning. If he was more interested in the latter then he probably would’ve already ceded the race to someone else more broadly appealing and primed to go for it that isn’t fucking 81 years old, to be honest.
Cooked, our cockles are cooked. We’ve never not been cooked, we’ll never not be cooked.
You vote that and you can pretty much be sure that Trump wins.
Yes, it sucks, but vote Biden, like him or not. You can’t risk trump getting into a position of power…
and as I write this, why am I even trying? These university students are vapid and dumb enough to do this anyway, not vote or vote some alternative , thinking they are making the world better while they are actively destroying it. Sorry, but yes, people are unknowingly but willingly destroying their own and our futures.
These university students are vapid and dumb enough to do this anyway, not vote or vote some alternative , thinking they are making the world better while they are actively destroying it.
This mentality right here is exactly why you’re headed to a devastating runback of 2016. No seeing the other point of view or wondering why people would feel a certain way, just denigration and dismissal.
You better get to knocking on doors, you only got 6 months to go!
Another day with a similar post about how Biden is single handedly murdering children in Gaza.
It has to be bots… right? Or bad faith actors.
Could Biden do more to reduce the suffering in this war, probably. But no one here is point ling out specific executive powers he should be exercising or diplomacy that’s being left on the table. Instead it’s all personal attacks that appear primarily motived to discourage likely democratic voters by drawing lines between their votes and enabling genocide. As if it’s somehow that simple.
The republican plan is to replace the executive and judicial branch with sycophants. Rules don’t matter if your plan is to make sure rules can’t be enforced. The president doesn’t have the legal power to do it, but that may change with the plans the Republicans have set up.
Yes he has. The US is not allowed to send weapons to actors who commit war crimes and hinder US humanitarian efforts. The US is currently breaking that law, because the state department withholds the information that that is in fact what is happening, despite it being obvious. The president absolutely has the power to let the executive uphold the US law instead of breaking it.
I can’t give you details about how it all works because I’m not an expert. I’m pretty confident the president can’t override funding thar congress has allocated though. There are ways they can spend money, but they can’t get rid of already allocated funding.
If congress says we’re giving arms to Israel, there’s not much the president can do. They can probably delay it some, depending on how it was written, but it wouldn’t be legal to stop it.
Why are you lying? The logic is quite simple: If the Dems uphold the US laws of not sending weapons to war criminals and genociders, if the Dems protect constitutional rights like free speach and if the Dems abide by international law and order, then they will be voted.
You are like an abused spouse making excuses for your abuser instead of demanding him to abide by the rules.
Pretty wild. I saw it at 8 at one point, and was surprised.
I get it. People are super sad about all this death. I’m sad about it, too. But it doesn’t blind me to much more important matters. Sucks that 30,000 people is less important than containing Iran; that is entirely the fault of Iran and Hamas, though. Those bodies are on Hamas.
Bankrolling a genocide is the next worst thing you can do after actually executing one.
Look, as someone stuck with a corporate, colonialist, party, and a straight fascist/theocratic party, I feel fucked. However, everything I am mad bad will only be worse not voting for Joe. The DNC has spent decades., and untold amounts of money, supporting more, and more, radical republican candidates so that they can hold us in this exact position. The only way I see out of this is from the ground up. Last year I joined a local political group that works to inform people on a variety of ways to break the two party system. It’s the last play before the diplomatic impasse is so adamant that nothing short of violence will change anything. I found it surprisingly easy to find organizations working for a variety of voting reforms I can get behind in my state simply by searching “voting reform advocacy groups in (my state)”.
The global politics of the situation won’t allow any significant reduction as Iran and others will take it as an invitation to increase their aggression which is viewed as a worse long term outcome for the region by the state department. Short of revolution in Iran I don’t see their calculation on that changing anytime soon.
It would be a derilection of office for Congress to voluntarily weaken Israel. It has nothing to do with Gaza. Our alliance is about Iran. Our alliance keeps peace and stability that protects tens of millions of lives. Imagine how sads you’d be from an Iran Israel war in which 30,000 people are dying every day, or much, much worse.
Israel is already absolutely blasting every man, woman, and child in Gaza, with no sign of stopping. Could Trump be worse? Sure. Is giving Biden a pass and falling in line with his genocide going to make things better? Absolutely the fuck not.
I didn’t say anything about Biden, only that Trump getting into office would make make Israel feel emboldened to kill more children with Trump openly applauding and perhaps even supporting with American troops on the ground. Biden needs to change his view but we are protesting while standing on the lip of a maga volcano.
I think Trump is the much much bigger threat. He supports the genocide in both Ukraine and Israel. At least Biden is vocally against the genocide in Israel. We just need to get Biden into office then work on getting aid to Gaza and a cease-fire along with continued support for Ukraine. Trump in office could mean the end of NATO and with that the proliferation of nuclear weapons among all the other NATO members now that their nuclear umbrella is gone. Everywhere could be like Gaza of Trump is allowed anywhere near the oval office. He is a risk not worth taking under any circumstances.
Honestly? It would keep him hopefully from having a close enough election to contest it, game it, and potentially evade punishment for the crimes he’s actually on trial RIGHT NOW for committing. Then there is precedent for punishing a president and guess who can be next?
Biden does not sit on a button that says “lower gas prices” or “defund Israel” or “hold trump accountable” or any of a whole variety of things in the first place. Can he do more? Sure. Would I trash him because everybody has to do the exact right thing with the exact right issue every time or I’m going to take my ball and go home to let the other guy win and escape punishment for the first time ever? Fuck. No.
Get precedent for punishment, then punish them all.
The US by its own law must not send weapons to war criminals and actors preventing US humanitarian efforts Israel is doing both. All Biden has to do is uphold US law. Why are you letting him get away with the same shit that Trump did?
Read my comment very carefully. Where did I say “Trump would do less harm?” Exactly nowhere.
Protesting Trump for what he will probably do if he makes it to office rather than the sitting president actively supporting genocide is hilariously ineffective.
You should try knowing what you’re talking about some time
No it isn’t, lmao. Who the fuck protests someone who can’t fix the problem at hand? Do you want to protest against Hitler for also being worse than Biden as Biden assists in slaughtering children?
“You should vote for a person enabling genocide because the other candidate hypothetically would have done worse in an alternate reality, maybe.” Real high iq take there.
It’s very counterproductive given the two party system, yes. Especially when you consider Congress is restricting a lot of what he can do, he does not have the power to just cut off any foreign power he wants
Not quite. I will criticize him ruthlessly while in the same breath acknowledging that he is the best realistic option we have and stating others should also vote for him. I know the masses are dumb and easily swayed, but staying silent isn’t something I am morally OK with. What I am doing is the compromise I have made with myself that best takes all of my personal beliefs and ethics into account.
What’s up with liberals on lemmy telling blatant obvious lies? We both know he bypassed congress multiple times to send them weapons, who are you trying to convince here?
You are entirely missing the point here. You seem so deluded by factionalism that you can’t see this as anything but a democrat vs Republican issue.
This is a HUMAN GODDAMN LIVES issue. A literal genocide is happening and you’re playing the whataboutism game. “Whataboutism” is used way too much as a phrase in discussions, but this is a textbook example of it.
“Biden is contributing to genocide.”
“But trump is a criminal.”
“Okay…but people are literally being slaughtered and starved on the US’s dime and the president is still voicing support in the face of the atrocities we are all witnessing.”
“But trump-“
Just stop. No one here likes trump. We understand stacking domestic chaos on top of this issue is no good. But we are faced with no good option right now. The entire argument for voting for democrats over republicans is usually “but we can push the democrats through shame to do what is right.” THAT IS WHAT THIS IS.
We’re not playing politics. We’re playing try to save some goddamn lives with civil disobedience.
Like, it’s something we all understand. But that doesn’t absolve the Biden admin’s full-dive involvement. This administration is complicit in genocide.
That doesn’t mean another president wouldn’t be as well. The US as a country and entity is complicit. But that’s what we’re trying to change by calling out the weaker link—because the point isn’t playing politics. It’s stopping the genocide. What’s happening right now in Gaza is untenable. And Biden is supposed to be the better option—again, yes, we all understand trump would not be better. But that doesn’t change what’s happening. We need to be able to pressure our representatives, especially when they claim to be morally superior to the “other” party. And especially when they’re more likely to change. We have Biden over the barrel because it’s an election year, and he’s seeing a ton of pressure from people he needs the votes of. Hats leverage we don’t typically have. We need to use it. Also, it’s fuckin genocide. I don’t know how else to say it. And it needs to stop. This isn’t us claiming anything except we don’t want what’s happening to continue. We’re not discussing the election. This supersedes it.
This is what we need to do. Because, the point is stopping the genocide. Not playing politics. And that’s what you just can’t see past. Like I said, we voted for Biden knowing he was supposed to be the more morally sound option. And here he is participating in genocide. We are trying to push the president who is vulnerable on this issue to do the right thing. That’s what needs to happen. BECAUSE THERE IS A FUCKING GENOCIDE TAKING PLACE. That fact isn’t going away, no matter how much of a disaster trump would be. This president is vulnerable on the issue, and the point isn’t politics. It’s stopping a goddamn genocide.
What is your point you’re making here? Because you’re not saying anything anyone else doesn’t know. But that doesn’t we shouldn’t be skewering Biden for this. Because he holds the reins of power. This is what we should be doing, if not more.
I fully agree, he needs to be held to a higher standard. A lot of people are making it out to be that biden shouldn’t be elected, so that “the dems learn”. Also it seems biden is listening. www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/…/ar-BB1lRDdt
No, you’re still missing he point. The thread you’ve been involved in, this thread, has been “biden is complicit in genocide.” “Well trump is bad and would be worse.”
No one had said anything about the election when I jumped in except for you. But again, my point is this supersedes what’s happening in the election. You’re displaying factionalism. Democrat vs Republican is the arena you’re operating in.
There is a genocide happening. Full stop.
And it needs to end. That is where this conversation ends.
Saying, “well…but, the other candidate—“
No. This isn’t about candidates. This president is in office for almost another year. People are protesting what’s happening. The election only serves, in this situation, as leverage for us. Because this is bad timing for Biden because of the election. That’s its only involvement here. Except for your comments.
You can’t see past the poison that is the two party system to understand that it’s not even part of this discussion. Genocide. No. End it. That’s the conversation. And you keep bringing up a person not currently involved in it.
If that’s what the conversation I jumped into was, then this conversation and my point would be different. Check it out, I’ve made this point many times because I’ve seen this situation being leveraged to tilt the election away from Biden. BUT THAT IS A DIFFERENT DISCUSSION.
Making this conversation, where people are putting pressure on the president to save lives and stop a genocide, about biden’s opponent in the upcoming election is wrong. It’s a nuanced difference, but I can’t make it any more clear. You either get that or you don’t. And so far you don’t seem like you’re getting it.
Not missing the point. Yes he’s complicit, never said he wasn’t. I don’t know why you think that that is what I think. Ignoring what can happen in November is short sighted. I’m not saying to stop putting pressure, hell they need to ramp it up. You either get that, or you don’t, and so far it doesn’t seem like you’re getting it.
Jesus Christ, man. When the conversation is “_____ is ______.” and your entire argument is, “well, what about _____#2?” Then you’re not agreeing. You’re altering the topic of conversation, which runs cover for the initial topic by muddying the waters.
NOW you’re backtracking. But your contribution to the conversation was diverting blame. Until we all started calling you out. Maybe you do agree with us. But that wasn’t what you were saying.
Conversation regarding topics aren’t binary, taking into account alternatives is not muddying the waters. I’m not sure why you think I was back tracking, and you’re the only person who " called me out". Funny you could have said something along the lines of at least we agree on bidens handling of this and that would have been that.
This isn’t an attempt to be binary. And I jumped in to the end of a conversation you were having with someone else.
And I’m not saying that we’re still disagreeing about Biden. I’m trying to get you to understand the nuance of this subject. Not the subject of who’s culpable here, but the conversation itself is the subject I’ve been trying to get you to see sense on.
Yes, it’s great you agree that what’s happening is terrible. But…assuming that’s the end of the conversation? That is trying to make this conversation binary.
The nuance here is that you dragging the election—not even the election, but the other candidate in a future election— into a conversation about what the current govt is doing (regardless of what other US presidents have done and will continue to do with Israel) is ignoring the basic fact that this is our recourse. And what your initial, like, five contributions to the conversation were, was to bring up someone else.
Whether you agree with the general idea or not, you were running cover by muddying the waters. Which kinda makes you complicit in complicity.
This isn’t just a “you agree with us or you’re against us” situation. This is a “the way you engage with this topic is subtly undermining the people you’re claiming to support and muddying the waters of the conversation while undercutting the efficacy and possible future support of ending the genocide.”
I’ll try to go back into my comment history to find where I’ve taken a similar position to yours. But that’s what I mean by nuance. It’s not as simple as “agree. Convo over.” It’s, yes, I technically do agree that trump would be far worse for Palestine and piling domestic controversy after domestic controversy on top of the current laser focus on this one situation would derail the movement and diffuse the pressure. But right now, under this administration, we have a chance to pressure this admin to save some lives. I know you agree. That isn’t my point. My point is that how we discuss the topic matters, and you bringing up technically unrelated things in the conversation about the issue is problematic.
Again, it’s nuanced. We’re both technically agreeing on the overarching issue. But the conversation is the topic and that’s what I’m trying to get you to see. The fact that you think agreeing on biden’s problematic behavior would be the end of the conversation is further proof you’re not getting my point.
I’m so glad Trump is running because it means Biden can do literally anything and every single voter can just scream BUT TRUMP TOO and suddenly Joe is absolved.
These kids are gonna feel none of the blowback when trump wins and when actual palestinians ask them why they let the Genocide come here they’ll give some karen shit about how it’s the party’s job to convince them to vote against fascism happening here.
If you genuinely can only see the difference as that much then you are the fucking last person who gets to get so righteous about pulling this shit you privileged bougeyvik twat.
Cut the bullshit and stop using my kin’s corpses as set dressing for the conclusion you were going to be trying to get away with anyways. Palestinian dead aren’t a fetish for you yo indulge yourself with as you exercize the glib decadence of supposed western allies that have let us down time and time again by letting the men who actively took us to this day into office.
If you genuinely think that the answer to Joe Biden beint soft on Israel is to let Trump back into office after he handed them East Jerusalem, The West Bank, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter, either you’re a knowing zionist plant or a useful idjit who needs more than anything to just shut the fuck up and listen for once in their goddamned privileged lives.
I know who Netenyahu would be voting for, and if that’s not enough for you to be at the minimum locking down your plan to vote, you are not nor were not ever any ally of the palestinian cause in the homeland or here among our diaspora.
Did u like, miss that the removed comment is by a palestinian? But bad faith conquers all. I must just be a lib bc fuck actually reading the points ive repeatedly made and acknowledged the genocide and bidens wrongs, best to spam the thread to bury it all so that the honest to god points that cant be refuted get drowned out in a sea of “but muh xEnOcIDe JorSEpH!!1!”
Goebbels style repition, all of it. This thread started off with sanity, so u buried it in muck, like u always do when the americans trying to ensure they still have a democracy next year show up.
I don’t think you understand what protests are. Protests exist to influence policy. If Mr. Joe wants votes, change policy, get votes. It really is simple!
Remind me how Mr. Joe is protecting trans people down in the southern states?
Remind me how Mr. Joe is protecting trans people down in the southern states?
The president can say “Hey Congress, can you make this bill?” but Congress has no obligation to listen to him. Unless trans rights are being violated specifically by executive agencies, the president’s influence is pretty limited.
It’s different with Isreal, in that Biden has to approve foreign aid bills made by Congress, he himself expresses support for aid to Isreal, and he has the power to make treaties (as long as Congress approves them)
Our government does not give him the power. I’m taking a class on the US government right now and this is literally just how it works. We give that power to congress and the states, and we can’t really change that without a constitutional amendment. This is with regards to trans rights in the south, he does actually have some more power when it comes to Israel.
You realize plenty of very smart people do not agree that there is a genocide happening in Gaza?
It’s a warzone in a place with a culture of encouragement for willingly standing under incoming bombs to try and prove a point.
The low five-figure civilian death toll is not a product of Israel’s legitimate self-defense (targeting the 450 miles of tunnels that zigzag an area only 25 miles wide). It is a direct product of Hamas and the culture that it fosters in Gaza.
How sad are these morons going to be when Trump gets in and starts off a war that kills millions of people? Trump already tried once and the only reason we avoided it was because of the international backlash against Iran after it tried to shoot down a US bomber but accidentally shot down its own civilian airliner.
“Genocide Joe” is a foreign propoganda meme. People saying it have been tricked.
No. Its not a joke, but this is also not the opinion of most of us that are tired of hearing the run up to our election be spammed with nothing but how biden is singlehandedly responsible for netanyoohoos disaster.
Gaza is a genocide. The IDF is out to exterminate a culture via bombs and a refusal to providebasic life sustaining resources. That is pretty plain as far as definitions of genocide go as best as i can tell.
At the same time, im also aware that hamas was egged on by another deranged dictator to distract from the war hes waged on a country he calls a stepping stone to the denazification of eastern europe. Im aware that status quo joe is the only one of the 2 candidates that stand a chance in our election to support Ukraine, just as im aware that his stance on israel is a continuation of US policy for the past 70 yrs. I will add that im aware hes the first president ive had in my lifetime to even verbally acknowledge that what israel does is morally repugnant (calling for new israeli elections), just as im aware that US soft powers are critically endangered geopolitically as our allies fear we change our mind on whos a friend depending on whos in power. I can guaran-fucking-tee u that if Bernie was pres and tried to stop arms sales to israel, 70 senators would be ready to override him and call him an anti semite. The whole genocide joe nonsense is drummed up by foreign bad faith actors keen on installing a foreign stooge as our head of state, again, by disengaging our youth from the political process we have.
I support the protests bc i support palestine. I dont support joe biden any more than filling in the box next to his name in november. I dont support the genocide joe narrative bc i find it clear that it is being used for nefarious ends by hostile foreign powers.
No, the US alliance with Israel protects peace and stability for tens of millions of people. Just have my eye on things that actually matter. Gaza is a footnote in middle east history.
I think you’re bloodthirsty. You want to see scuttle an alliance that has stopped Iran from open, hot war against Israel. That war would definitely kills millions of people, any way you slice it.
You’re so sad about 30,000 people that you want millions of people to die. That’s blood thirst. I actually want the killing to stop, and so does Israel.
Hamas could surrender and end the violence tomorrow. But Hamas is content to hole up underneath buildings filled with their own families and neighbors. That’s who you’re risking millions of lives to defend.
To support the wholesale slaughter and intentional targeting of women and children is monstrous. The IDF tracks victims to their homes, then drops a bomb on their entire family. You think noncombatants and children deserve to die? What about the humanitarian workers trying to prevent mass starvation induced by the IDF’s bloodlust?
an alliance that has stopped Iran from open, hot war against Israel
Absurd. Israel has consistently proven to be the agitator against both Iran and Palestine. Israel has been assassinating Iranian scientists within Iran for years and bombed the Iranian embassy without warning. Israel is begging for blood. Their actions will only fuel hatred.
That’s nice you feel that way. Virtually the entirety of of the western diplomatic and intelligence corps disagrees with your threat assessment of Iran.
Iran funded the October 6 attack and has been funding violence against Jews since before Israel was even a state.
Moreover, Iran is a far-right religious dictatorship that has no future in the modern world. The future is in representative government and inalienable human rights. Iran would have you executed for talking about either one. Glad you like them, though.
Iran is a far-right religious dictatorship that has no future in the modern world.
And Israel is not exactly this? Don’t make me laugh.
The future is in representative government and inalienable human rights.
Yeah, you showed that you really respect human rights when you said the deaths of 30,000 civilians was justified.
In case you have forgotten, during the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, this was originally Palestinian land. The native Palestinian were forcibly expelled and massacred by the Israeli Jews.
Condoning Israel’s aggression does not mean Iran is without issue.
Yes the Ottoman empire held the land before Israel was created in 1948. They took us violently from Hebrew speaking Semitic peoples called the Judites. They were forcibly expelled by the Ottomans.
And Hamas knows this too, as they find (and destroy) Hebrew artifacts all the time whilst digging the tunnels.
The land records don’t weigh in Palestinians favor, unless you open your history book to the last one third and pretend there is nothing before it.
I didn’t say 30,000 deaths is justified. I said Hamas caused the deaths. It is not justified. And this is in part why Hamas must not strangle another generation of Palestinians.
“Genocide Joe” seems like the perfect republican plot to make people abstain from voting because the deliberately leave out how Trump would make matters 100 times worse.
Biden is constantly challenging Netanyahu while Trump would deliberately hand them a full and permanent occupation of Palestine on a silver plate.
People already forgot that it was trump who moved the embassy to Jerusalem basically destroying the USAs support for a two state solution?
Yes it’s actually quite despicable. Anyone using the brain dead slogan of genocide Joe is literally downplaying genocide. This isn’t a defense of biden. Biden is making his own problems here. What he is doing is enabling. Not committing genocide. Even then he actually has been pushing diplomatically for it to stop. I get it though. Enabling Biden or enabling Joe doesn’t really have the propaganda punch. Not like Bibi The Butcher of Bethlehem.
People don’t want diplomacy. They want what they want. And they don’t care or understand how they could get it. It’s easy to make demands. Anyone can do it. Getting things done is a lot harder. This isn’t too attack anyone putting pressure on Biden to put pressure on Netanyahu. Just the irresponsible ones making it genocide belittling propaganda slogans.
Cant wait for 20 bad faith actors to drop in and downvote the shit out of u the second this post/comment starts picking up steam.
E: here they are! This post kicked off with 6 or 7 comments all echoing this sort of sanity, but here come the downvote brigade making it look like truth is less popular than fiction. Per the usual, calling it out angers the vlad supporters greatly. Of course its the usual suspects, too, come to defend their paid comrades efforts to fuck up our elections.
As someone pointed out before, its all goebbels style repetition of the same continually disproven points, but hearing it enough plants the seed in enough minds to where it starts to sound like truth.
Oh, you bet. Republicans are getting a big fat chub over this topic. This war in Gaza is the best thing that could have ever happened to them in the year long run up to the election. Wouldn’t doubt that China and Russia are also responsible for spreading the message to sow discord and doubt. For every person they successfully convince to stay home on election day, that shortens that gap between Trump and Biden by one less vote in Trump’s favor, not to mention the even more important down ballot races.
Forget trying to explain this to people on Lemmy, though. They’re not interested in listening.
The GOP isn’t going to run on it. They’re going to use it as a tool to get people who would otherwise vote against them, to not vote or to vote third party. It isn’t about what their stance on the issue is.
“Um, aktually sweatie, if the Palestinians didn’t want US jets running sorties on the West Bank, they should have convinced the DEMONRATS to run a better candidate”
Don’t worry - just as “BIDEN HATES UNIONS” was the drumbeat before October 7, so too would they find some other excuse to make life worse for the oppressed if Biden cut off all aid to Israel tomorrow.
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