Right? I learned yesterday that Israel is suffering from a lot more friendly fire incidents than is typical in urban warfare. Almost like the people they’re fighting are so poorly equipped to fight back that the main threat to Israeli soldiers is other Israeli soldiers.
The only thing I can say is that both have no problem with harming combatants and civilians alike, but one side is disproportionately killing civilians with the resources at their disposal (Israel) just because they can.
I’m not convinced that Hamas wouldn’t do the same if the tables were turned, but one side needs to be better if we’re ever to see an end to this conflict.
I always thought the IDF was supposed to be super skilled and tactical. I expected surgical strikes to take out terrorists and minimize civilian casualties. They had a reputation for strength.
Turns out they’re either incompetent or they’re genocidal or both. Hint: both.
Unfortunately, for those in the know, the IDF's callous and sadistic operations in Palestine have been known for some time. They had a good PR arm making themselves out to be super careful in the occupied territories, but it was always at odds with their actions.
Well, the good PR arm is pre-October 7, back when they were 'just' doming American citizens and tying Palestinian children to their vehicles as human shields. Right now I'm pretty sure their entire PR team is either on vacation celebrating that their job is over now that Israel is going mask off, or have chosen to eat a bullet over seeing their work whitewashing all these atrocities pissed away by Netanyahu.
Hamas and the Islamic brotherhood have only fired 12,000 rockets at Israel since 10/7. I’m sure they don’t want to kill indiscriminately, just give the Israelis a fireworks show! /s
If 12,000 rockets fired means they are attacking indiscriminately, what would you say about the many more thousands of bombs that the IDF has dropped over the entire area of Gaza? Why are IDF engineers rigging residential buildings with bombs and destroying them after clearing them out? What is the purpose of their missile strikes on refugee convoys and ambulances?
I mean I’d say that also counts as attacking indiscriminately. The idea behind the term “indiscriminately” means that you don’t care who is on the other side, so it can apply in both of these situations.
I haven’t seen a number of bombs dropped by the IDF recently, but it was in the thousands last I heard probably in December. Israel also has much heavier munitions and is capable of high accuracy. Independent analysis show that by November 6th, the IDF had dropped at least 500 2,000 pound bombs, causing impact craters larger than 40 feet, in densely populated residential areas.
The heavy munitions, mostly manufactured by the US, can cause high casualty events and can have a lethal fragmentation radius – an area of exposure to injury or death around the target – of up to 365 meters (about 1,198 feet), or the equivalent of 58 soccer fields in area.
Whether or not militants hide in hospitals or ambulances it is abhorrent to attack medical staff and is generally recognized as a war crime. There have been numerous deaths of independent observers, foreign medical staff. More UN aid workers have been killed by the IDF since October than in any other conflict in their history.
Yeah, I’m not making excuses for anyone. People just have this tendency to exaggerate towards “their” side.
Taking either side in this thing like it’s a sports team seems kind of obscene to me. We don’t need to be making things up to try to “win” an online argument.
Regardless of how much damage Israel has done, I don’t think they’ve dropped 16,000 bombs.
Data from conflict-tracking group Airwars suggests that the US-led coalition against IS in Iraq carried out 15,000 strikes between 2014 and 2017; the Israeli military has carried out 22,000 in Gaza in less than three months.
I searched “number of Israeli bombs dropped” on duckduckgo and that was one of the first that came up, there are other stats I’ve seen referenced before like bombs dropped or mortar strikes etc. if you follow the original source cited by the Guardian it may be more specific, I haven’t looked at that yet whoops I see you say you looked at that already
Too many people don’t get that, I am 100% against Hamas, that might be different, if instead of a bunch of civilians, they had just taken like legitimate military people, I know everyone in Israel’s a veteran blah blah blah.
Hell, I could even have a lot more respect for them if they immediately released everyone who wasn’t an Israeli soldier.
Shit even if they just give up the fucking children.
But they didn’t do any of that and they’re complete fucking bastards and cowards.
But I can say damn hear everything the same against fucking Israel here.
They are both bad, and I don’t understand the people who are only against one or the other.
Yeah, that’s nonsense. Not once, from any media, Western, independent, or Middle Eastern have I heard that. They are Muslim but their sole purpose is Palestinian liberation and to fight Zionism. It’s in their party charter.
Note: This is sure as shit not meant to downplay or deny Israel's ongoing genocide. Only to point out the absurdity of some online leftists in simping for Hamas and expressing disbelief that far-right theocrats with a history of committing terrible crimes would commit terrible crimes.
Callout, I guess? I generally don't bother unless someone reduces a number of things in a row for no discernible reason, in which case I usually ask why in private messages. Sometimes it's something like "Your links aren't working", and other times it's "I think you're an attention whore and need to be taken down before you infect the Fediverse".
Daily reminder that the word terrorism was only coined to prevent the obvious escalation when non violent protests are either ignored or put down violently.
When you’ve tried peaceful protest and nothing changes you only have one option left.
The PFLP has generally taken a hard-line on Palestinian national aspirations, opposing the more moderate stance of Fatah. It does not recognize Israel, and promotes a one-state solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, in a “democratic Palestine”, where “Arabs and Jews would live without discrimination”. The military wing of the PFLP is called the Abu Ali Mustapha Brigades.
The only people on Hamas’ side are Netanyahu, the former Muslim Brotherhood, and Iran who all worked hard to keep Hamas well funded and in a position of authority. The important thing is to side with Palestine, not with Hamas.
Nah I’m fine with backing Hamas in this case, it doesn’t mean I’m home with entering they’ve done or do but I can say that for literally every country including my own.
It is though. They’re both terrorist states that opportunistically attack each other but one thing is factually different Israel has killed more civilians even before the festival attack and subsequent “self defense” ethnic cleansing.
Funny how you immediately assumed I approve of the actions of the Israeli government. Even more funny: given the choice between which baby killers to back you pick a side. I’m against killing babies.
Just pretend that Hamas are AZOV and that instead of Islamic hardliners trying to reclaim their country, they’re neonazi hardliners trying to reclaim their country. I’m guessing you’ll suddenly lose your aversion to picking a side.
Nah, you’re lying; you absolutely don’t apply that standard to the Russia/Ukraine conflict, let alone to something like WW2 (a lot of dead babies in Hiroshima)
Also, let’s see your evidence of Hamas killing babies.
“When did I say anything positive about the apartheid government? All I said was that Mandela and the ANC are evil terrorists who should be condemned!”
That part supporters of either group fail at is that neither Hamas or the Israeli government are worthy of support or in the right. One behaves worse than the other at the moment. But there can never be peace with those two in power. It’s a really fucked situation and my heart really hurts for the people caught in the crossfire of it all.
It seems that netanyahu bolstered hamas for years for political gain, and squashing any moderate palestinian activists, teachers or politicians. Like jailing them. What happened was really predictable.
And both of them are getting what they want, to be the kings of ashes.
“We regret the deaths and injuries to civilians arising from armed actions. We apologize to the next-of-kin for the suffering and hurt,” said a statement from the ANC to South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission, set up to investigate apartheid-era abuses and promote reconciliation among South Africans of all races.
The ANC repeated its position that the armed struggle against the country’s white-ruled government, which began in 1960, was a just war and that civilians had not been deliberately targeted.
The ANC repeated its position that the armed struggle against the country’s white-ruled government, which began in 1960, was a just war and that civilians had not been deliberately targeted.
Which makes a stark difference between the ANC (or rather, the ANC's policies) and Hamas.
If I cite any of the many, many times in which Hamas has unambiguously and deliberately targeted civilians with planned attacks, will you concede, or will you just make excuses for the slaughter of civilians?
If you find a planned attack on civilians from October 7 do link it. I’m curious to see it and will watch it.
I was actually intending on doing any of the many, many pre-October 7th attacks because I've seen people deny proof of intentional targeting of civilians as "Israeli propaganda".
The ANC repeated its position that the armed struggle against the country’s white-ruled government, which began in 1960, was a just war and that civilians had not been deliberately targeted.
But the ANC statement said some of its guerrillas weren’t sufficiently trained and “were never thoroughly under the discipline of the ANC.”
I already know some Hamas members went rogue. When you work with people who’s entire families have been bombed by israel some tend to get trigger happy.
The question is whether these were planned orders from the top down or soldiers going rogue.
The question is whether these were planned orders from the top down or soldiers going rogue.
Okay, so, again, if I provide you with evidence that Hamas has committed attacks which were deliberately planned, from the top-down, to target civilians, you'll concede the point?
My man this is from 2005. We are talking about 7 October 2023 right now. Your cop out is insane it’s 20 years old. Leadership has changed completely.
Show me evidence that in the attack we are talking about there was a planned attack on civilians. Your claim was that THIS attack intentionally and planned from the top down, targeted to kill civilians.
I can link you to every country on earth committing genofide in the past too. That’s not relevant to the current conflict.
A cop out AND an attempt to rewrite what I actually said.
I was actually intending on doing any of the many, many pre-October 7th attacks because I've seen people deny proof of intentional targeting of civilians as "Israeli propaganda".
Impressive. You actually pulled out a response that's MORE pathetic than I expected. We're done here.
I thought you were meant planning of the attacks pre October 7 or an incident right before it. Not shit from literally 20 years ago.
Hamas did attack civilians 20 years ago. They did hospital and bus bombings that is well known.
The difference is that their last attack resembled nothing of the likes and you’re pretending it did. It targeted military bases not hospitals and bus stations.
Hamas did attack civilians 20 years ago. They did hospital and bus bombings that is well known.
Funny, then, that you denied it previously when comparing them to the ANC.
The difference is that their last attack resembled nothing of the likes and you’re pretending it did. It targeted military bases not hospitals and bus stations.
Just an example. Of course, as your latest cowardice proves, you'll find some excuse for murdering civilians for this one too, likely under the guise of "There are no Israeli civilians!" or "IDF propaganda!"
Bootlickers are bootlickers, it seems, regardless whether it's Hamas or IDF boots.
Beeri was the place the IDF shot to rubble with their tanks and then made up cool fanfics about 40 beheaded babies later you know that right? This is what Beeri looked like.
There are fringe far-left/tankies who support Hamas. They think Hamas=Palestinians. The far-left think they know enough about politics in the Israel-Palestine conflict when they have not even heard of the more moderate Palestinian Liberation Organisation who are worthy of more support for the Palestinian struggle. But instead, the far left loonies support terrorist acts by Hamas believing taking foreigners as hostages-- who mostly have no horse to bet in the fight between Palestine and Israel-- then abusing and raping them is justified and somehow think that will garner support for the struggle for freedom by Palestinians.
Stupid be stupid I guess. Though luckily, these pro-Hamas, far left nutjobs are on the fringe and minority.
Very telling to (rightfully) say “both sides are bad” but not say “I support civilians on both sides”. You know you can condemn a far right regime but still show solidarity with that country’s population, right?
Yeah the fact that they only said they support Palestinians was pretty obvious what they meant. This smells, to me, like racism pretending to be a fair and balanced take on the situation.
Hamas shoots hundreds of rockets at Israel every month. Suicide bombings hurt their reputation so much that they haven’t done any recently, but that doesn’t mean they won’t ignore an evacuation order and go stand on the roof of their building to get blown up for the cause.
Now that the terrorist attack is behind them, Isreali citizens arent currently being bombed the shit out of and active warzoned. Are they at risk of future terrorist attacks? Yes, but CURRENTLY its Palestinian citizens who are at a FAR higher risk
Edit: Lmao, apparently Tankies can see and reply to me even if I cant see them. I assume this is because I havent blocked them personally, but instance blocked Hexbear
Clarification to my Edit: Tankies if you are confused why Im insulting you even though you think I’m on the same side as you, Hamas can go fuck itself. Just like Isreal doesnt represent all Isreali citizens, neither does Hamas represent Palestinians. Isreal and Hamas can go fuck themselves, they are both pretty awful. I feel for Palestinians and consider them the most fucked over in this ordeal, but what Hamas did was VILE, even if what Isreal is doing in response is even more so
It’s crazy to me that people here seem unaware that Israel didn’t just start out by building a fortified security perimeter around Gaza. It did that because of the near weekly suicide bombings. Gaza would be completely free if not for those terrorists.
Israel is definitely going overboard, but Hamas and a significant portion of Palestinians openly call for Israeli extermination. The utter refusal to engage on this topic in good faith, and the way this lack of nuance is being used to attack Joe Biden specifically is why I’m convinced much of this narrative is being pushed by right wing trolls pretending to be leftists.
Nah man, what Isreal is doing is genocide. The correct thing to do is fucking murky when both sides have engaged in barbaric bulshit for at least a generation, but Isreal has the upper hand in this power dynamic and what they are doing with it is fucking gross, same as the terrorist attack that Hamas pulled was pure evil. Neither side is clean in this conflict, but one side has significantly more power than the other. Leftists are pissed because the states is once again using its power to aid in something disgusting.
I don’t really disagree with much of what you say here, but I have seen leftists on here actually praising Hamas.
I do think the loaded language is intended to divide, and I’m quite curious to what people will say if the UN says it’s not a genocide. I genuinely don’t think Israel is trying to exterminate Palestinian Arabs. But that also doesn’t mean I’m anything close to ok with the response. The fact of the matter is that if both sides took a more secular approach to coexistence, there would be no conflict.
I guess the Tankies are technically left, but is that mostly a technicality when they simp for authoritarian regimes who have zero interest in ever allowing left leaning ideals? So yeah, theres a disgusting amount of lemmites who full on support Hamas, but I stopped considering them reasonable human beings a while ago (I’ll state here I’m using Tankie here to mean: “Communist who’s pro China/Russia” and NOT all communists). I dont really know what the response will be if the UN declares it not a genocide, some people will probably accept that and some people wont. I dont think a large chunk of people necessarily CARE what higher governmental powers declare it as though, its the fact that its functionally exterminating a significant portion of Palestinians that is upsetting to a lot of us, if its found to not TECHNICALLY be a genocide, that doesnt necessarily downplay the horror of what’s happening. Finally, and I apologize for the wall of text, I’m trying to respond to everything, I dont think religion is the sole cause of this conflict anymore, both sides have been traumatized by the generation of violence, and the hatred born from that isnt going to go away easily
'Sometimes' and even 'most of the time' isn't 'all the time'.
WW2 is an exceptionally rare event in which one side is so fucking awful that the support of the opposition is mandatory to not be a vile piece of shit.
No. The Israelis committing genocide is the extremely common event in which one side is awful enough that supporting them in unconscionable. It doesn't make their equally genocide-eager but less genocide-capable foes morally necessary to support.
You are going to be in for a real surprise if you learn the things the ANC did to the Apartheid. And the Native Americans did to their colonizers when raising villages. And all these other resistance movements that we now describe as “heroic”.
October 7 sure as hell wasn’t the cleanest attack ever, but it sure was a lot less genocidal than almost every resistance group that has ever done these kinds of things.
October 7 sure as hell wasn’t the cleanest attack ever, but it sure was a lot less genocidal than almost every resistance group that has ever done these kinds of things.
These people can barely hide their own bloodlust while scolding others for daring to even suggest that there is nuance or complexity here. It’s bold even for tankie brain rot.
Doesn’t justify the bombing of hospitals and civilians. Nobody likes Hamas but they’re the result of Israel’s illegal annexation of Palestinian territories and subsequent genocide.
What do you think the Palestinians who had their house and families expropriated, blown up and/or resettled by an Apartheid State will do? Not like/join the guys who want to get rid of Israel more?
Before Israel’s bombing campaign, Hamas wasn’t very popular among Palestinians, now however I assume Israel gave Hamas way more recruits.
The state of Israel is older than Hamas and Israel bombing Palestinians started before 7th of October 2023. I think the establishment of Hamas in 1987 and rising popularity till they got elected on Gaza in 2007 can be fairly attributed to Israel’s bombing, displacement and apartheid rule of civilians.
Hamas arose from ideology that has been around a long time, with a rich history of stoning women to death for learning math going back hundreds and hundreds of years.
Same goes the other way as well. The popularity of Netanyahu in Israel would also be much lower if he couldn’t use Hamas terror attacks to justify the need for a “strong leader”.
Last I checked his popularity ain’t doing so well.
Also may I remind you that the genocide of the Palestinians has been ongoing for far longer than the 7th of October and far precedes Netanyahu’s government. In fact it even precedes hamas.
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