jacqueline,
@jacqueline@chaos.social avatar

https://transfemscience.org/articles/spiro-testosterone/

so spiro just doesn't do shit then? is that the read?

GreenSkyOverMe,
@GreenSkyOverMe@ohai.social avatar

@jacqueline Oh - is that why it’s not used in Europe?

jacqueline,
@jacqueline@chaos.social avatar

@GreenSkyOverMe i would say it's not europe doesn't use spiro, it's the US that doesn't use cypro

(historically, anyway. bica being the hot new thing folks are looking into all over.)

lisamelton,
@lisamelton@mastodon.social avatar

@jacqueline This is another reason I got an orchiectomy and stopped taking that crap.

whitequark,
@whitequark@mastodon.social avatar

@jacqueline i'm not sure if "doesn't do shit" is quite accurate even if snappy, but i will fully stand behind "there is no reason to use spironolactone whatsoever as an AA"

jacqueline,
@jacqueline@chaos.social avatar

@whitequark it does some shit! mostly not things i'm interested in tho

whitequark,
@whitequark@mastodon.social avatar

@jacqueline yeah

bicalutamide is essentially as cheap, infinitely more effective, and has only one real downside (you can't infer effectiveness from T levels which don't decrease) which isn't a problem because it's so effective at suppressing the effects of T

whitequark,
@whitequark@mastodon.social avatar

@jacqueline the united states and its medical practices have been a disaster for transfeminine populations

whitequark,
@whitequark@mastodon.social avatar

@jacqueline i think the thing i'm the most irrationally bitter about is spiro becoming culturally embedded as a transfeminine emblem of sorts

why do u represent yourself with a shit drug that doesn't work

whitequark,
@whitequark@mastodon.social avatar

@jacqueline i know the answer to this of course and it's not a useful avenue of discussion almost all of the time

jacqueline,
@jacqueline@chaos.social avatar

@whitequark kind of accidentally a great emblem for how we should regard the medical community

whitequark,
@whitequark@mastodon.social avatar

@jacqueline thinks i feel like spiro is too harmless, relatively speaking, for this to work

jacqueline,
@jacqueline@chaos.social avatar
p2502,
@p2502@poto.cafe avatar

@whitequark @jacqueline bica has another downside - it's not safe to take if you don't have access to regular blood testing for liver function as some people develop acute liver toxicity and without blood tests you can't tell until it's too late. of course you're still better off not taking any AAs in that situation than taking spiro, so it's not a downside relative to spiro

whitequark,
@whitequark@mastodon.social avatar

@p2502 @jacqueline what is the actual incidence of that? transfem care has a rich history of having overblown concerns (there's some about GnRHAs too, though there I at least know it's essentially unfounded)

(and by "actual incidence" i mean "at transfem care doses, not cancer treatment doses")

p2502,
@p2502@poto.cafe avatar

@whitequark @jacqueline transfemscience says "10 published case reports", all of elderly men being treated for prostate cancer, but there is one unpublished case of a death of a young transfeminine person. though compared to CPA that's still nothing (how badly prescribed that is would be another rant), main difference is the sudden nature compared to CPA. it's a fair point that there is bias because of the typical lack of data, but i don't think it's the same fearmongering as with GnRHAs?

whitequark,
@whitequark@mastodon.social avatar

@p2502 @jacqueline i think the risk you should be comparing this to is that of death due to not being on AAs, which is clearly considerably higher than "one unpublished case"

p2502,
@p2502@poto.cafe avatar

@whitequark @jacqueline that depends what form of estradiol you have access to. you don't need to take AAs if you can suppress testosterone with estradiol alone. i might be a little biased how easy it is, from experience here doctors often prescribe Neofollin (EV 5mg/7days) in combination with 50mg/day CPA. the CPA dose is very excessive and we have to convince people to disregard their doctor and take much less (<=10mg/day) and in most cases people are able to stop taking CPA altogether

whitequark,
@whitequark@mastodon.social avatar

@p2502 @jacqueline yes, this tracks. for most of my life I haven't had easy access to injectables (and had no one to teach me inject); I've actually not started on those before getting orchi

whitequark,
@whitequark@mastodon.social avatar

@p2502 @jacqueline but myself aside, yeah if you're comparing nothing vs bica+e2 vs injectable e2, the choice should be biased towards the latter

jacqueline,
@jacqueline@chaos.social avatar

why tf did they have us all on this for decades

ErinRose,
@ErinRose@chaos.social avatar

@jacqueline because doctors didn’t listen to all the trans people telling them it doesn’t do shit for the last 15+ years

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