Running Signal Will Soon Cost $50 Million a Year

Signal’s president reveals the cost of running the privacy-preserving platform—not just to drum up donations, but to call out the for-profit surveillance business models it competes against.

The encrypted messaging and calling app Signal has become a one-of-a-kind phenomenon in the tech world: It has grown from the preferred encrypted messenger for the paranoid privacy elite into a legitimately mainstream service with hundreds of millions of installs worldwide. And it has done this entirely as a nonprofit effort, with no venture capital or monetization model, all while holding its own against the best-funded Silicon Valley competitors in the world, like WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Gmail, and iMessage.

Today, Signal is revealing something about what it takes to pull that off—and it’s not cheap. For the first time, the Signal Foundation that runs the app has published a full breakdown of Signal’s operating costs: around $40 million this year, projected to hit $50 million by 2025.

Signal’s president, Meredith Whittaker, says her decision to publish the detailed cost numbers in a blog post for the first time—going well beyond the IRS disclosures legally required of nonprofits—was more than just as a frank appeal for year-end donations. By revealing the price of operating a modern communications service, she says, she wanted to call attention to how competitors pay these same expenses: either by profiting directly from monetizing users’ data or, she argues, by locking users into networks that very often operate with that same corporate surveillance business model.

“By being honest about these costs ourselves, we believe that helps provide a view of the engine of the tech industry, the surveillance business model, that is not always apparent to people,” Whittaker tells WIRED. Running a service like Signal—or WhatsApp or Gmail or Telegram—is, she says, “surprisingly expensive. You may not know that, and there’s a good reason you don’t know that, and it’s because it’s not something that companies who pay those expenses via surveillance want you to know.”

Signal pays $14 million a year in infrastructure costs, for instance, including the price of servers, bandwidth, and storage. It uses about 20 petabytes per year of bandwidth, or 20 million gigabytes, to enable voice and video calling alone, which comes to $1.7 million a year. The biggest chunk of those infrastructure costs, fully $6 million annually, goes to telecom firms to pay for the SMS text messages Signal uses to send registration codes to verify new Signal accounts’ phone numbers. That cost has gone up, Signal says, as telecom firms charge more for those text messages in an effort to offset the shrinking use of SMS in favor of cheaper services like Signal and WhatsApp worldwide.

Another $19 million a year or so out of Signal’s budget pays for its staff. Signal now employs about 50 people, a far larger team than a few years ago. In 2016, Signal had just three full-time employees working in a single room in a coworking space in San Francisco. “People didn’t take vacations,” Whittaker says. “People didn’t get on planes because they didn’t want to be offline if there was an outage or something.” While that skeleton-crew era is over—Whittaker says it wasn’t sustainable for those few overworked staffers—she argues that a team of 50 people is still a tiny number compared to services with similar-sized user bases, which often have thousands of employees.

read more: www.wired.com/story/signal-operating-costs/

archive link: archive.ph/O5rzD

zoe,

go back to monke: embrace xmpp or irc (even matrix is trash)

elias_griffin,
@elias_griffin@lemmy.world avatar

Session, a fork of Signal, is better because as far as privacy goes as you don’t have to download it from a store that violates your privacy. Just go to the offcial site and download the apk.

guyrocket,
guyrocket avatar

How do you think that stacks up to jitsi?

WallEx,

Isn’t that mainly for video calling?

guyrocket,
guyrocket avatar

I think you're right. Not really comparable.

WallEx,

Taught so, but personally only used it once in a matrix integration

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Jitsi was used for some time while matrix protocol video was under development.

tree,

I really only use matrix/element I just was just shocked they’re paying 6 mil a year for phone verification and they aren’t completely underwater

WallEx,

This is the way. Matrix rocks

EngineerGaming,
@EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

I prefer XMPP. Same thing, but lighter and easier to host.

WallEx,

I’ll look into it, thanks

neonred,

for Android there’s the client “Conversations” and some others. Just create your account somewhere else, free.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Bridges.

kpw,

Bridges break end-to-end encryption. If Matrix wouldn't cook up their own version of existing internet standards we could have real interoperability.

Cossty,

I use element, but for communication with family and friends I use signal. Element app is not as simple, it is a little clunky/buggy and slow. It is not ready for “normal” people.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

it is a little clunky/buggy and slow. It is not ready for “normal” people.

It uses full sync. You can try sliding sync client like Element X. It’s experimental, but should work.

Salix,

You can download a self updating apk from Signal’s official website

Cossty,

As far as I know, this version doesn’t have push notifications for microG or google, so it will drain your battery a lot faster because it’s always on. People should just download the Google play version with Aurora Store.

shortwavesurfer,

Actually, I’ve been using this version for about 4 years, and it does not impact the battery significantly at all.

Aatube,
Aatube avatar

If true, same should go for this Session thing

Salix,

This version detects if you have Google Play Services when you first launch it. If you do, it’ll use it, if not, it moves to websockets.

If you installed GPS after launching Signal, you’ll need to go to in and erase Signal’s app data for it to reset again.

Cossty,

I didn’t know that, good to know. Thx

elias_griffin,
@elias_griffin@lemmy.world avatar

The Aurora Store still uses Google for some pieces, it just provides an anonymized wrapper for them. The Aurora Store developer has an avatar of himself wearing a mask with the following profile info on GitLab.


<span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Aayush Gupta (He, Him, His)
</span><span style="color:#323232;">@theimpulson
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Member since March 03, 2018
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Bhilai, India
</span><span style="color:#323232;">1:07 AM
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Android Developer at Calyx Institute
</span><span style="color:#323232;">aayush.io
</span><span style="color:#323232;">aayushgupta219@gmail.com
</span>

He’s using Gmail, is that supposed to be ironically funny running all our engagement for his de-Googled product - through Google?

Before I switched to Graphene I ran CalyxOS. It was hacked to pieces and is no where near GrapheneOS or even PostmarketOS I’d say. In fact, I think iOS is probably more secure than CalyxOS!

As well microG has this, anyone step through all that code to verify?


<span style="color:#323232;">            topDomainOf(Uri.parse(appId).host) == "gstatic.com" &amp;&amp; rpId == "google.com" -> {
</span><span style="color:#323232;">                // Valid: Hardcoded support for Google putting their app id under gstatic.com.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">                // This is gonna save us a ton of requests
</span><span style="color:#323232;">                true
</span><span style="color:#323232;">            }
</span>

I’ve verified that a straight Session apk install on GrapheneOS does not use Google in any way.

PlutoniumAcid,
@PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.world avatar

What’s their benefit over Signal? It can’t be just the downloads source.

elias_griffin,
@elias_griffin@lemmy.world avatar

The biggest benefit is that Session can run completely independant of platform (Google/Apple) push services and will run completely self-contained. You can set Session to check for messages every X minutes. Of course while the app is open and focused, it’s real-time. This removes metadata collection on when/where/how you are messaging.

jimbo,

What does the distribution method have to do with the privacy of the messages sent via the app?

xploit,

deleted_by_author

  • Loading...
  • slumberlust,

    An open call for sustainability is the opposite of that isn’t it?

    Dulusa,

    You really dont know what it means if a Company is non-profit and opensource, right?

    pmarcilus,
    @pmarcilus@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    I’m glad that Signal choose to be transparent about its spending instead of hiding it from obscurity.

    onlinepersona,

    Hiding from obscurity? 🤔

    notonReddit,

    Bot language

    OsrsNeedsF2P,

    ESL. Bots don’t make that kind of mistake.

    xenoclast,

    Of all the services asking me for a monthly fee. $5 for a non-profit private communication tool is a no brainer.

    wholeofthemoon,

    And you’re paying privately… how?

    xenoclast,

    They have a donation thing and you can setup a monthly donation. It’s gives you a badge in the app.

    SankaraStone,
    @SankaraStone@lemmy.world avatar

    Yep, this is what I do. Signal’s pretty much one of my top favorite open source applications.

    Kiruko,

    You can donate via crypto on their website

    madcaesar,

    This isn’t viable.

    I tried to buy crypto to support some sailors, but… The fees buying that shit are insane. I didn’t want to trade, gamble or by a crypto bro, just exchange some USD to bitcoin, was directed to coinbase as they are reputable, apparently and won’t steal my shit, but their fees are insane. Trading 100 USD was like 19.95 $ in fees. Fuck that shit.

    Is there a cheaper / better yet still safe way to get crypto?

    pedroapero,

    I agree this is mostly for people already owning crypto.

    Note that not all crypto are created equal, bitcoin is probably the one with the highest fees.

    The good news is that a lot of developpers accept cryptocurrency donations (often xmr in addition to btc I noticed). So you can help a lot of organisations that don’t want to pay and do legal paperwork to accept fiat.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Made significantly harder by removing easy ways to donate. Instead I have to add my credit card to their application or log in to PayPal instead of just using Google’s Play Store. I use to donate until they removed that option. Now every time I wanted to donate and run into that dialog am just like, yeah I don’t have PayPal’s password on hand and am not leaving my CC with them. I’ll do it later, only to forget.

    Plagiatus,

    Get yourself a password manager. You’ll always have your PayPal password at hand.

    I’ve been liking bitwarden so far. Works well, seems properly encrypted, no big scandals, etc. But of course anyone reading this should compare a few offers first.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    I have it, but not on my phone. I use “pass”.

    Newchair,
    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Thanks. I’ll look into it. I think I used that as well, but it requires my passwords be on GitHub or something. I do have pass installed in Termux on my phone, but it’s not convenient.

    Newchair,

    I have a simple git repo on my nas for sync because I don’t really trust putting passwords on github either. Using a git repo also allows you to easily revert changes which is really nice. I found this guide helpful.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    I already have git repo inside of my ~/.password-store directory which am using for company password. Issue is not making it work, just finding time to change it. Thanks for the link though.

    jimbo,

    Why the fuck would you want Google skimming money off the top of a donation?

    spookedbyroaches,

    “Because I don’t want PayPal doing the same”

    Honestly they’re both annoying because they take a fee on top of the credit card company fee. Just cut out the middleman and use the credit card option.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    They all skim money on top. It’s just easier this way. And I’d be happy to increase my donation by the amount Google skims. It’s not about that. It’s about not having to leave my credit card anywhere.

    jimbo,

    I could see that being a concern if you were dumb enough to use a debit card, but a credit card? Mine’s been stolen a number of times (skimmed at Target once amongst other things) and the bank always caught it before I was even aware it had happened, and they canceled/refunded the transactions. Getting a credit card stolen is unlikely and personally I don’t find it to be a particularly significant concern.

    unsaid0415,

    The ecosystem is moving? How the turntables

    Mio, (edited )

    They should make it possible for the community to help out with server resources. Relay or decrentralize it maybe.

    Tire,

    They do ask for donations in the app from time to time.

    Flambo,

    Relay or decrentralize it maybe.

    The thing I read about this earlier said Signal is super against decentralization iirc. Or at least against federation? Are they different?

    fosforus, (edited )

    I suppose it could be decentralized without being federated. Every node would just be a part of the single instance, whereas in a federated model they’d be more independent.

    A centralized implementation is much simpler than a decentralized one, making it easier to guarantee performance and stability if you don’t do it. That might explain why they don’t want it.

    FrankTheHealer,

    There’s probably a lot of pros and cons. But the big thing for Signal would be maintaining privacy and solid performance.

    These things become harder to guarantee if you decentralize or rely on the community. While Matrix is doing quite well in this regard, it would take a while before Signal had all the ducks in a row to enable this.

    smileyhead,

    I don’t think Matrix is making this well… We with friends have selfhosted instance and the database bloat is scary.

    If Matrix would be as popular as Signal it would blow up untill they fix performance with their server.

    kpw,

    Have you tried hosting a standard XMPP server like Snikket? It's much more leightweight.

    interceder270,

    No joke, I’d be way more willing to pay for stuff if business were open about their expenses.

    Tire,

    They do ask for donations in the app from time to time.

    squron,

    So much this. Just subscribed, I hadn’t realized.

    elias_griffin, (edited )
    @elias_griffin@lemmy.world avatar

    Open Whisper Systems (Open Whisper)

    Signal was launched by now-defunct Open Whisper Systems (OWS) in 2013, brainchild of shadowy tech guru ‘Moxie Marlinspike’ – real name Matthew Rosenfeld. In February 2018, responsibility for managing the app passed to the nonprofit Signal Foundation, launched with $50 million in startup capital provided by billionaire former Facebook higher-up Brian Acton, the Foundation’s executive chair

    Huawei engineer exposed SIGNAL has CIA backdoor — Please do not use SIGNAL has been subverted *

    WikiLeaks Says the CIA Can “Bypass” Secure Messaging Apps Like Signal. What Does That Mean? *

    The fast-growing encrypted messaging app is making itself increasingly vulnerable to abuse. Current and former employees are sounding the alarm *

    The CIA and Signals Intelligence *

    Get Session, the FOSS fork of Signal, from former employees at Signal

    I know what the counter arguments are all gonna be, I live and breate security. The fact is much of this is outside our inspection. We cannot audit the internal Signal network or it’s code. If something comes across as possibly sketchy when deaing with security and privacy, for all intents and purposes it is sketchy and cannot be trusted.

    When in doubt, personalize the situation. You have a babysitter. You heard sketchy things and saw some low grade sketchy stuff. What do you do? You boot immediately, right?

    Do not try to convince yourself of something you cannot without hard evidence.

    You’re welcome.

    Vulwsztyn,

    Read the 1st comment under 1st link, 2nd link os about something different, 4th links is about something absolutely different. **

    ScrotusMaximus,

    Is the original fishy comment some kind of bot generated counter intelligence?

    tehbilly,

    I especially love how even the first few paragraphs of the second link make it clear that it’s not a problem with Signal.

    Hadriscus,

    19M a year for 50 people ? that would be 380.000/person. Surely there’s an error here somewhere lol Unless we’re talking rupees

    overzeetop,
    @overzeetop@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s not exclusively peer to peer, so there must be infrastructure, no?

    TowardsTheFuture,

    nah they say 19m is for their almost 50 employees. 14m is infrastructure, 6m of which is for texts to confirm, apparently. Which also… seems like way too much? 6 million for text messages? Are they confirming 390 million new accounts a year? Quick google says its .79 cents a text. 2x that to receive also and… yeah… I’m pretty sure that ain’t right. Like I get the 8 mil a year for data, cuz yeah it is a lot. Texts should probably be 1m assuming 50mil new accounts a year. I could see 10m for the 50 people, that is $200,000 on average. So… half what they claim seems reasonable.

    BeardedGingerWonder,

    Are you including the office space/associated costs with employing someone as well? I was once told it costs approx 100k to have me in my seat before the cost of my salary was accounted for, not sure how much BS that was, but 100k was multiples of my salary at the time.

    TowardsTheFuture,

    I mean, I could see them trying to say costs for buying land and building shit and furnishing and etc. sure, but again this is YEARLY costs, not startup costs. I do assume there is some of that included in the budget but its not listed anywhere. I mean I GUESS that could be listed under budget for staff but that seems… very disingenuous.

    jasondj,

    Wages themselves are not the full cost of an employees total payroll expense, since that would also include taxes and benefits. And then you have to figure their expenditure for business equipment (work computer, phone, printer, etc), licenses for job-specific software they use, total cost of the square-footage of office space they need, etc.

    You could say office space and furniture and even IT infrastructure are sunk costs but they do need to be constantly maintained and expanded upon as the company grows. Adding a person to the payroll means the company has grown. They may not need a bigger office, or more servers, until they hire a few more people, but then at that point they will need it.

    pandacoder,

    Things like health insurance, etc. are yearly costs though and that stuff does end up adding up. There should also be some recurring taxes that an employer has to pay per employee that aren’t part of income tax withholding (i.e. doesn’t show up as part of an employee’s paystub).

    PeroBasta,

    Keep in mind that they need to be able to send SMS worldwide and roaming is a thing. Especially if you have to deal prices with all the telco in the world

    FrankTheHealer,

    Probably for renting office space, security, catering, training, employee benefits, and things like that. I’d imagine costs like that balloon up quickly.

    Plus there’s likely background checks for potential hires, onboarding and interviewing, these all have costs too since they have to be selective of who they hire, since that person will then be working on one of the most secure messaging platforms in the world.

    Also, as for the costs of texts, a significant part of that would be the costs associated with sending push notifications. I remember a while back, when I had an iphone and used Apollo for Reddit, the developer of the app explored every option but eventually settled on a paid subscription system, just to enable push notifications for the app. There was no other way since for the users of Apollo alone, the cost of sending push notifications every time you got a reply or message was surprisingly high.

    That was just on iOS, add Android to that plus Signal’s clients on other platforms, I’d imagine that the bandwidth to send notifications probably costs Signal a lot since people tend to have conversation prompting multiple notifications on their device.

    I could be wrong but that would be my guess as to why the costs are, what they are.

    TowardsTheFuture,

    Ah the push notifications makes a lot of sense, the article said that was just for SMS messages to confirm messages and that seemed way too much, but push notifications is probably right.

    And yeah, I guess I assumed most of those costs wouldn’t be labelled staff budget, but idk I’m not an accountant lol. Still that seems to be a lot for 50 people yearly.

    jasondj,

    If signal is run by 50 people, I have a pretty good hunch that the majority of them are very well paid developers and engineers, and IT…and a rather small amount of lower-paid administrative staff.

    eskimofry,

    C*Os probably eat a la4ge portion of it. Not even breaching into VPs and Senior Managers

    Hadriscus,

    Well there it is, they can make savings easily afaic

    daniskarma,

    Yeah, that seems shady at least, what kind of salaries are they getting?

    Where I live in europe, IT people usually hace salaries between 30.000 and 80.000. And it is considered a pretty good salary.

    realharo,

    If all the employees are located in the highest cost of living area in the world, it kinda makes sense.

    Gotta pay those insane housing costs somehow.

    flamingo_pinyata,

    Good. People creating useful non-profit services should be paid a lot. And according to their financial reports (somebody linked in another comment) it’s not biased towards executive pay.

    realharo,

    As long as it doesn’t end up eventually bringing down the entire service.

    primal_buddhist,

    Could be that that is employee headcount and not including contractors.

    suckmyspez,

    I find it amusing they don’t accept donations via their own cryptocurrency 🫠

    polle,

    Lol

    FrankTheHealer,

    Tbf, I’ve used Signal daily for about 5 years now, I completely forgot it had that crypto thing a while back. I don’t think it’s something that the current head of Signal is interested in.

    online,

    I think Marlinspike’s weird crypto turn is what got him pushed out so we now have the wonderful Meredith the first tech company leader I’ve ever looked up to.

    Hopefully they remove that crypto thing from it.

    fosforus, (edited )

    I think it’s sad more like it. One of Cryptos’ actual real world promise was workable micropayments, and that would’ve made a lot of sense as a payment method for a service like this. Like pay either a smallish block sum every month or a tiny amount for every message you send out.

    And of course sadder still that Signal has a crypto integrated into it and failed to make it work for anything else but a cryptobro get-rich-quick scheme.

    I guess it turned out that nobody wants to implement micropayments because one of their qualities would have to be extremely tiny processing fees which both means that the implementation has to be highly efficient (so it won’t waste the already small margins on computing resources) and the implementing party has to be able to stomach very low profits until traffic gets huge.

    fuck_u_spez_in_particular,

    I’m guessing it has to do with money laundering/tracking etc.

    realharo,

    You can also do micropayments without crypto.

    Netrunner,
    @Netrunner@programming.dev avatar

    We need a lemmy version of signal

    steltek,

    That’s Matrix. End to end encrypted, decentralized, and open source.

    Bridging opens it up to other services as well, like how Pidgin/Adium/Gaim used to work.

    smileyhead,

    Matrix is the closest, as it is a protocol to build compatible servers and apps onto it.

    topinambour_rex,
    @topinambour_rex@lemmy.world avatar

    No, we need a lemmy version of chaturbate.

    I mean, there is already matrix. But does there is already a cammodelling federated tools ?

    No, so stop reinventing the wheel, and let’s make something new and original.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    There’s application called Session, which is essentially forked Signal, but doesn’t rely on servers or phone numbers. Instead it uses Tor network and is decentralized. It’s kind of annoying though considering adding people to your contact list, you have to scan their id. Increased security but it goes to show why Signal opted for phone numbers.

    ALostInquirer,

    Instead it uses Tor network […]

    Are you sure? Do they use that alongside the weird blockchain backend they had going, or switch over at some point? I remember looking into Session awhile ago but I wrote it off because of the blockchain/cryptocurrency shenanigans involved in the architecture.

    As I recall part of the idea was that the cryptocurrency would serve as a sort of incentive for people to run nodes for the Session network to operate.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    I am not sure to be honest. It’s something I’ve read, installed application and tinkered a bit. Decided no one from my friends will use this since I already inconvenienced them into Signal. Then promptly removed it.

    kpw,

    It's called XMPP: https://joinjabber.org/

    Lemonparty,

    I’m dead serious wtf is signal? It’s like texting but all texting apps just go through it? Or something?

    steltek,

    Signal is a chat app. It uses phone numbers for identity verification and friend discovery but messages go over an end-to-end encrypted protocol. While open source, it uses a centralized network and a single client.

    It’s somewhere between Matrix and WhatsApp. Open Source and friendly, but still centralized and anchored to phone numbers.

    Agent641,

    Im not sure I can afford that

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