Unity bans VLC from Unity Store.

Everyone can agree on VLC being the best video player, right? Game developers can agree on it too, since it is a great utility for playing multimedia in games, and/or have a video player included. However, disaster struck; Unity has now banned VLC from the Unity Store, seemingly due to it being under the LGPL license which is a “Violation of section 5.10.4 of the Provider agreement.” This is a contridiction however. According to Martin Finkel in the linked article, “Unity itself, both the Editor and the runtime (which means your shipped game) is already using LGPL dependencies! Unity is built on libraries such as Lame, libiconv, libwebsockets and websockify.js (at least).” Unity is swiftly coming to it’s demise.

Edit: link to Videolan Blog Post: mfkl.github.io/…/unity-double-oss-standards.html

Rustmilian, (edited )
@Rustmilian@lemmy.world avatar

Go help out Godot or perhaps Bevy, financially, by contributing code &/or bug reports or by any other means you may be capable of.
When Unity dies you’ll be thankful you did.

KingThrillgore,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

Some of these comments are wack. “Just stop using Unity” bro some people don’t get that choice.

thoughts3rased,

Brb let me completely rewrite all my unity projects and learn unreal in a single day

laurelraven,

You’re gonna take a whole day? Why you slackin so much? Git gud scrub!

Alsephina,

Lmao they really don’t want anyone to keep using their engine anymore

fruitycoder,

@gardiner_bryant Unity just gets worse.

markon,

Fuck Unity. Their engine sucks anyway.

sanqueue,

Why don’t people just use Godot?

SandLight,

In my case it’s because I’m too far along in my project and would lose probably a years worth of work. My next project will be Godot or something else though

Elderos,

Lack of important features, no asset store, not as mature (more bugs), no native console support, no low-level rendering access, no texture streaming, and on and on.

sanqueue,

What you said makes sense. Assets store is coming out in the next version of Godot and honestly, Godot is looking very promising. It’s like the early days of Unity

gerbler,

What pisses me off about the whole Unity thing is that if Unity makes itself eat shit then it just further consolidates engines into fewer hands. Godot is great and all but it doesn’t have everything Unreal has (I’m not throwing shade it’ll get there dw) and I really really don’t want Epic to have a bigger stranglehold on the games industry than it already does.

Unity had its niche and if the executives could stop fucking around it would be lovely to have as a competitor in the landscape.

Also to everyone saying “just don’t use Unity”: there are a lot of people who have put a lot of time and money and effort into learning Unity and it’s not exactly as easy as you think to just switch to an entirely new workflow. You also have to consider how impractical it is to switch engines mid-development. There’s a reason why Unreal 5 has been out for multiple years and we’re only just seeing games developed with it now. Developers (especially ones with big budgets and all the caveats they come with) don’t want to ship a game with the latest and greatest engine if there’s kinks to be worked out. This is why you still see Unreal 4 in games released today.

chitak166,

there are a lot of people who have put a lot of time and money and effort into learning Unity and it’s not exactly as easy as you think to just switch to an entirely new workflow.

Honestly, that’s the price they pay we pay for not doing things right the first time.

I’m not sure why people have convinced themselves that they can just ignore problems and they will go away. Software licensing is an issue that pervades all development. Ignoring it is asinine and will lead you to wasting time and money on bullshit.

When I was picking an engine to learn, I chose Godot. Now I’m not bitching when Unity is dying because I said it was going to die years ago. People just like to ignore problems until they can’t.

Elderos,

Godot is fine for solo/very small indies and people trying to learn gamedev, but it is not ready quite yet. Most devs still are stuck using proprietary engines.

mightyfoolish,

You are 100% correct of course. I do want to add that depending on the works/software of others is also a risk as well. It’s the tradeoff made when the developer decided not to build an engine from scratch. If the game engine company becomes shaky, the developers have to weigh that in when looking at the cost of switching or not. Or maybe everything will be fine.

Tlaloc_Temporal,

It almost makes me think the higher ups got paid to kill Unity. All the C-suite got golden parachutes if they kill the project now.

Then I remember OGL and the fat lack of competition they had, and remember C-suite often don’t know what they’re actually in charge of. Malice vs stupidity and such.

space,

The C suites have nothing to lose. Best case, they make more money, worst case they get replaced and hired as a C suite by some other company.

AnyOldName3,
@AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

Epic donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to Godot when Unity was being dumb this summer, so either they think an open-source project is on the brink of making their competitor unprofitable and collapse, and think enough of the studios jumping ship will come to Unreal to cover that sum, or they’re concerned that someone will start enforcing antitrust laws and want something to point at to say they’re not a monopoly.

NegativeInf,

Both. Definitely both.

AstridWipenaugh,

Epic is just a troll company. They donated to Godot when it served as a jab in the side of their competition (unity). Their entire business model is to inflict Stockholm Syndrome on their users via free games.

Amir,
@Amir@lemmy.ml avatar

Their entire business model is Fortnite

Anarki_,

Both and also Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

sir_reginald,
@sir_reginald@lemmy.world avatar

I think they saw it as an opportunity to wash their image. “Look, we’re the good guys” kind of thing.

rivermonster,

I don’t envy you that miserable decision. And I get that you’ve evaluated everything and personally feel it’s worth gambling that they don’t fuck you and make it pointless, all that effort, bringing the game to market.

I’m rooting for you here, and I hope everything works out!

I feel just as awful for anyone who has an overwhelming port or even an impossible port. It’s just miserable.

uhmbah,

Front VLC blog, link in post above

“After months of slow back-and-forth over email trying to find a compromise, including offering to exclude LGPL code from the assets, Unity basically told us we were not welcome back to their Store, ever. Even if we were to remove all LGPL code from the Unity package.

Where it gets fun is that there are currently hundreds if not thousands of Unity assets that include LGPL dependencies (such as FFmpeg) in the Store right now. Enforcement is seemingly totally random, unless you get reported by someone, apparently.”

fruitycoder,

Is there legal grounds for selective enforcement of policies like that?

abhibeckert,

Depends on the reason they chose to have selective enforcement.

A good analogy is kicking someone out of a bar. If you do it because they’re a dickhead… perfectly fine. But if it’s because they’re black… not OK.

Iceblade02,

… so what you do is set up a rule that everybody will break - “no drinking with shoes on” - and only enforce it against people you want to kick out 👍

reagansrottencorpse,

Hey that sounds familiar!

douglasg14b,
@douglasg14b@lemmy.world avatar

Imagine not using FFmpeg or anything that uses FFmpeg 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Bogasse,
@Bogasse@lemmy.ml avatar

I suppose there are a lot of companies who would be glad to make you pay for their proprietary video standard, we would just pay for something formerly free 😟

alienangel,

Any reason not to expect all the others to get reported now? If Unity wants to tear themselves down, might as well speed it up.

Cqrd,

According to the article, unity is literally built on software that uses this licensing, so it’s weird that they’d start going against it now. Their runtime literally includes it

rob_t_firefly,
@rob_t_firefly@lemmy.world avatar

Time to report Unity to itself so it can ban itself from its store.

pinkdrunkenelephants,

Stop using Unity, you hopeless retards

sebinspace,

OH FUCK WOW ITS THAT FUCKEN SIMPLE HOLY SHIT MY MIND IS BLOWN.

Hopeless retard.

pinkdrunkenelephants,

Yes it is, actually. Hopeless imbecile.

linearchaos,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah you know just redo absolutely everything that you’ve done so far. Simple You got an extra 1000 hours lying around right?

pinkdrunkenelephants,

If you care about the integrity of your project and saving it from the claws of a corporation who will just as easily lock you out of it forever whenever they feel like it, yes.

Actually put some time, effort and sacrifice into doing what’s right, you hopeless coward

linearchaos,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

I kind of care more about my coworkers and I being able to eat.

pinkdrunkenelephants,

Stop making excuses. If you don’t take a stand and do something on principle instead of your pocketbook, then Unity is not the problem, you are. Whether you want to accept it or not.

You can go get a job at McDonald’s and survive. You can’t use your circumstances to justify enabling evil anymore. Not with me.

linearchaos,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

Heh McDonald’s and survive. You sound like a real family man, or are mommy and daddy still paying your bills?

Further more, you project like theres no tomorrow. Your circumstances may be fine to stop the world and port. Honestly most aren’t.

Ok I’ll stop joking.

Will our next project be in unity? Probably not but maybe. What makes that decision? The cost of paying salaries to start over from scratch. We have a working unity framework, it has working plugins, hooks analytics, ads and sales for a ton of different companies. Some of those ads are iron source, now we’ll pay marketing to find and negotiate a new vendor. We actually ran the numbers. The new costs they were demanding were a shit sandwich, but they were still less than the cost of moving.

You also have Godot’s lack of console support, which doesn’t affect me (at the moment) but does affect a lot of other people.

pinkdrunkenelephants,

Nah, I’m just the abuse survivor who traveled across the country to escape and worked at McDonald’s to escape the subsequent homelessness I found myself in once I reached the other side of the continental U.S. The one who knows what I’m taking about because I had to start my life over from scratch to not be murdered while your lazy, cowardly ass is whining about anything, anything being expected of you. That’s who the fuck I am.

Now stop your pathetic whining and actually put forth effort into something other than making excuses for yourself. If you invested a fifth of a third of a quarter of the energy you dumped into arguing with me onto porting your games, you’d have been done by now.

The responsibility for change lies solely on you, and if you refuse to sacrifice for positive change, the situation is solely your fault. The only one you have to blame is yourself.

linearchaos,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

That’s awfully funny cuz you sound like more like a bully. You sound like somebody that needs to boss everybody else around. You sound like somebody that doesn’t give a crap about anyone else or their situation. I think you’re a liar and probably a narcissist. And that said we don’t have anything else to talk about here as soon as I see you’ve read this message I’m going to block you

pinkdrunkenelephants,

You sound like a bully when you presume to ad-hom someone who actually overcame impossible odds because you don’t want to admit I’m right and that you’re actually going to have to save yourself since you’ll never get the validation and rescue from your community that you want.

You are 100% at fault for your own suffering because you won’t take responsibility and act to save yourself, and you have no one to blame for your plight but yourself. It’s as simple as that.

I already know what you’re going to do though; you’re just going to keep whining, feeling sorry for yourself and playing victim while Unity apathetically locks you out of your life’s work and hides it behind a paywall, and the only one who’s going to suffer from that is you. 🤷

hswolf,
@hswolf@lemmy.world avatar

So you’re suggesting him to:

Drop out of his job (which you may not know).

Stop earning an amount of money that, may or may not be utterly necessary to keep his lifestyle (which you may not know).

Spend months or years learning a new technology, meanwhile unemployed or with a job that may or may not sustain his previous expenses (expenses which you may not know).

Re-make every single project that he owns to a new platform while adapting every single thing to a new environment, meanwhile solving a waterfall of bugs and refactoring problems, ultimately consuming hundreds of hours (bugs which you may not know).

After living miserably for a while, hunt for companies that somehow are using an open source tool that, most of the time, won’t tick all the boxes a company needs from a tool (companies and boxes which you don’t know).

Miraculously find such company and, miraculously rise to a position high enough that you can make a decision which changes the whole core of the development team, impacts licensing for other tools, new hires, compatibilities, and god knows what more down the line (changes which you may not know).

You’re suggesting that he goes down years of an even more uncertain path… just because you feel like It? To me It sounds like an Evil person’s plan. How can you be so assertive saying something which you may not know about? Jesus

pinkdrunkenelephants,

If he cares about his career as a game developer then he’ll have to learn Godot and start porting his games to that platform if he wants to be in control of his games.

If you think any of that is an absurd and unrealistic extreme, then you are part of the problem.

Doing what’s right requires sacrifices and sometimes in life, we have to make those sacrifices not only for morality’s sake but for our own. He will lose everything if he doesn’t do what you’re suggesting.

Sorry, but life is like that sometimes. You’re not meant to be comfortable all the time, you’re meant to be strong, and that means sometimes you will have to get a second job to do the things you want to do.

Change isn’t going to just fall into your lap.

Abnorc,

Some people can afford to move their project to a different engine, and others may be in situations where they can’t. Calling someone a retard or imbecile or whatever doesn’t change that. That might be too much for some citizens of the internet to understand though.

Gerula,

Ohhh no, VLC has some problems with… who’s this Unity fellow again?

trafficnab,

Wasn’t that the hivemimd robot guy from Mass Effect

slurpeesoforion,

No no. He’s the evil robot from the Marvel universe.

MoonMoon,

Nope, its the hive mind lady from Rick and Morty

wolfshadowheart,

Nope it’s that EA game with Creed the boxer

rivermonster,

Wait, people are still using Unity after they clearly demonstrated they’ll fuck you on a whim? Honestly, seems like everyone’s been given a fair warning about dealing with these scumbags. I get migrating a codebase is a motherfucker, and sometimes it is even easier to redevelop much or all of the project. But again, if you’re renting retail space from someone who is a psychopath, bipolar, and an arsonist (Unity in this case), and they might burn your shop down at any moment, sometimes you gotta move!

linearchaos,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

New stuff would go well to end up under Godot. Porting your old s*** over and replicating all the assets and plugins is an insurmountable feet for most.

chitak166,

I get migrating a codebase is a motherfucker, and sometimes it is even easier to redevelop much or all of the project.

This is the price they pay for not doing things right the first time.

douglasg14b,
@douglasg14b@lemmy.world avatar

Uh… Ofc they are?

Even after all this I’m about to start a new game using unity. Why?

Because there’s no way I can bring it to market with the ecosystems available in any other major engine given the type of game that it is. I’ve already prototyped for almost a year using various options to narrow it down.

I would be forced to build so much from scratch for the mapping tech that I’d never ship it in say Godot.

Do I want to use unity? Hell no, but am I going to give up on my dream because screw unity? Hell no. I’m not into pyric victories.

RockHornet,

There are a lot of ways to bring a game to market without Unity or Unreal. But if you can’t envision doing an input mapping system yourself just stop right now. It’s only going to get worse, engine or not.

Elderos,

It is classic internet outrage complely disconnected from what smaller game devs have to go through. Don’t get in the way of a good internet outrage as a legit, actual gamedev who knows why this is damn near impossible, or you’ll get downvoted.

The whole argument of leaving Unity hinge on the fact that Godot is a close replacement, it is not.

Signtist,

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: when a company does something that shows it doesn’t have its customers’ best interests in mind, it’s imperative that it be immediately and wholly abandoned.

Companies have long since learned that we’ll ignore major red flags for the sake of convenience, and at this point they’re not even trying to hide the flags - they’re proudly flying them and laughing as we continue to give them business.

ItsMeSpez,

This is a good policy, but it’s not always that simple for people who have been making games on the engine. Many people have spent years of their lives working on projects using Unity, or have already released products using Unity which they are now supporting. Changing a project to another game engine is a massive undertaking, so Unity has a semi-captive consumer base in the short term.

riskable,
@riskable@programming.dev avatar

Oh come on! They’re software developers! The code they wrote three years ago is total shit and you (we) know it, haha.

Take the time to learn something new, today. It’s practically what makes a software developer a software developer. If you’re not learning a new language, engine, or technique pretty regularly you’re going to have a hard time (eventually).

The reason why software developers reinvent the wheel so often is because we know that the old wheel is garbage. It at least, the way we used it was. After being a software dev for a few decades, looking at your old code should always give you a feeling of, “I could’ve done that better.”

Unforeseen,

This is the same reason oracle is still in business. AKA the ol’ trap and gouge.

chitak166,

Changing a project to another game engine is a massive undertaking

That’s the price they pay for not doing things right the first time.

riskable,
@riskable@programming.dev avatar

Yeah! Everyone stop using Microsoft products today! I’m serious.

I took this same advice in 1999. Been using Linux on my desktop ever since 👍

Just like with unity: You have to learn some new skills if you switch to something else but the benefits outweigh the costs. It’s so much easier today than it was back then and this seems to be a universal truth: The sooner you switch off of any abusive platform the more quickly you’ll reap the rewards.

Even better: Later, after everyone who didn’t switch is bitching about the latest nonsense from their abusive vendor of choice you can rub it in their faces and be like, “I switched to Godot ages ago and I am so glad I don’t have to deal with this kind of shit anymore.” Just like how Linux users say similar things about the latest bullshit from Microsoft whenever it comes up in the news (which is often, which is why it’s become a trope).

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Okay but what’s the real reason?

automattable,

💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Yes but how

automattable,

Other folks in this thread are speculating that they want to put their own video player in the store.

helenslunch,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

And charge extra?

automattable,

Well the VLC one was free, and I’m guessing theirs won’t be.

yetAnotherUser,

For anyone wondering:

  1. There was a plugin on Unity Store that acted a bridge between Unity and libVLC, which allowed developers to make video players inside the game engine. As the post says, it got removed.
  2. This plugin isn’t made by VideoLAN, it’s made by a company named Videolabs that includes several people who supposedly have contributed a lot on VLC and FFMPEG.
  3. The Videolan team made a blog post about this, if you want to know more: mfkl.github.io/…/unity-double-oss-standards.html
jrgd,

VideoLabs is made up of many of the same contributors of VideoLAN, including Jean-Baptiste Kempf themself. It is arguable that this is in fact Unity banning VideoLAN’s VLC bridges for media playback in Unity.

Wrench,

I also thought VLC was a bit shaky on their legality as well, but since their HQ was in a Nordic country (iirc) with more lax copyright laws, they got away with it.

So I wouldn’t blame an app store for not wanting to take on legal gray area risk.

computergeek125,

If Unity had a problem with VLC playing copyrighted content they should have said so, not issued a takedown on LGPL grounds. Regardless of whether they’re right or not from a lawyer perspective, it’s a bad look for Unity to show the double standard here.

thatgirlwasfire,

Most of the people downvoting you dont seem to understand why VLC is only quasi legal in the US.

AnUnusualRelic,
@AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

Because it can read DVDs. Which is evil (because they ought to pay a license). That’s all there is to it.

owen,

They’re stealing money from the mom and pop DVD technology license holders!!! 😡😡😡

AnUnusualRelic,
@AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

but since their HQ was in a Nordic country (iirc)

It’s French. And there’s nothing shaky about it. It’s even fully endorsed by the EU.

TwilightVulpine,

VLC is just a media player. It isn’t on them if anyone is using it to watch or listen pirated content just as much as it isn’t on Adobe or Microsoft if people use them to read pirated books. They aren’t the one hosting or distributing the pirated content

Really, I get an off feeling just by trying to parse out what is your reasoning here. Did we get to a point that technology is so corporately-controlled that the idea of a program can freely open files of a certain type is inherently subversive, as opposed to a service or storefront where everything is tied to some corporately-owned licenses?

But I shouldn’t be alarmist and make too many assumptions. What is the “legal gray area risk” that you mean here?

ipha,

The “legal grey area” is about codec patents and dvd playback.

Wrench,

Exactly.

Also, I think there was some question about whether it was legal to use ffmpeg under the hood depending on the use case (commercial). I imagine a plugin used inside commercial games would certainly violate licenses based on non-commercial use.

But seeing how my original comment was received, I doubt many here are actually interested in why it may be necessary. Let the anti Unity circle jerk continue.

barsoap,

If you’re using it commercially you should be building it such that it only supports what you need, and what you need should be something not patent encumbered. Because why would you shell out money for an inferior codec when you can choose freely what to encode your stuff with.

Wrench,

“Should” and what’s actual reality in multi national copywrite / license / patent law are rarely the same. Especially in this case where you have to include other people’s work (codecs and media players) just by the nature of the problem.

barsoap,

I only told you what you should do if you don’t want to get into legal trouble, that it’s simple, easy, and a good idea even if it wasn’t for US-specific bullshit. If people don’t to act sensibly, well that’s on them.

barsoap,

There’s no software patents in the EU, when it comes to codecs the only thing patentable would be hardware implementations and if you have one of those whoever produces your CPU/GPU already paid for a license. DVD region-locking is at least sus to the commission but they never went ahead with antitrust etc. stuff probably because the market became irrelevant, also, the industry was smart enough to make the whole of the EU a single region. DeCSS is more of a grey area and currently unsettled but a Finnish court judged it legal because the mechanism circumvented is not effective. That’s a legal, not technical, thing, they’re basically saying that it’s closer to “circumventing” a copy blocker by disabling autostart when inserting a CD into your computer than it is to circumventing by actual decryption, which makes sense as the scheme is weak AF. That said if the industry were to upgrade the scheme they nowadays might run into a different set of anti-trust issues. Generally speaking nobody, not even the industry, really seems to care as physical media is pretty much dead.

Ross_audio,

For context.

zdnet.com/…/if-vlc-can-ship-a-free-dvd-player-why…

Under French law DVD and Blu-ray codecs aren’t patentable and VLC is based in France. The organisation isn’t breaking any laws.

Whether using VLC in the US is the legal grey area.

So it’s not VideoLAN who might be breaking a law, it’s you by circumventing the anti piracy keys in DVDs and Blurays. Millennium copyright act and anywhere that signs up to a treaty containing reciprocal copyright law might have an issue.

Patent infringements might also be possible in the US if you edited that open source code in that country, but US to EU patent treaties don’t cover software France deems unpatentable so distributing the codec is probably fine as long as it’s of French origin (and non-commercial use as per the GPL licence)

In the UK, the codec might be patentable now after Brexit interestingly but we haven’t yet diverged on patent treaties with the EU yet as far as I know and we’re part of the US patent treaty still.

Similar things happened with MP3 codecs in Linux before it was also made free. You’d either be prompted to make the choice to install yourself during or after the install. Or perhaps 2 downloads offered, one with and one without.

All to show you as an individual made the choice to use those codecs. If there were any possible damages from an individual download is would be less than $40 in licencing. So a lawyer would have to submit a case for each individual for that as a possible settlement, not even guaranteed.

As long as a large organisation isn’t liable for the codec install, it falls into “de minimis” legal territory.

I remember a Live CD install of Ubuntu required some hoops to get codecs at one point in the distant past. I looked it up then out of curiosity.

Wrench, (edited )

I think the discussion below your comment is good, but your comment, and the community response (in the form of comment votes), illustrates a problem I have with the lemmy community.

Counter arguments are important.

It seems Lemmy has an even bigger problem than Reddit did with circle jerks. Any counter argument that goes against the grain is immediately pounced on here. Especially if you don’t write a page long disclaimer that you don’t necessarily agree with the decision, I’m one of you, etc.

I simply pointed out that <hated company> may have had a good reason to consider <3rd party plugin> a big enough legal liability to triage out of their store for the time being, based on some half remembered related knowledge of murky legal details of the past.

You immediately implied that I’m some sort of corporate shill, even if it was politely worded. And the community piled on in response.

It would be nice if there was at least an attempt to understand both sides of an argument here.

Uglyhead,
@Uglyhead@lemmy.world avatar

Are,…we,…the baddies?

Wrench,

But what about all those highly voted articles about how OTHER social media sites are dangerous echo chambers!

ripcord,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Ha. The downvotes - to what seems like a reasonable reply (even if people disagree) - seem like they’re proving you right :)

brbposting,

Very fair!

mkwt,

Even if they’re currently shipping some LGPL components, they may want to prevent new LGPL components from being added if they eventually want to be LGPL-free in the future.

Jaysyn, (edited )
Jaysyn avatar

I won't ever buy another game made after 09/2023 using Unity. It's a dead platform & this is the sound of it's death throes.

EDIT: Cry more @IWantToFuckSpez, fucking bootlicker.

ech,

Did you just call out someone that downvoted you by name? That’s kinda weird.

cybirdman,

Is that even possible? How do you know who downvotes you?

QualifiedKitten,

Yup. Use an instance that makes that data visible, such as kbin. It takes a few clicks, but it's there for anyone to see.

Alto,
Alto avatar

Incredibly

blargerer,

Game development can take years. If someone was already halfway into their game, and chose to finish it in Unity rather than throwing away a year+ of work, is doubly punishing them rather than actually punishing Unity.

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