poligraf

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

comments like that, which are essentially displays of heartlessness, only undermine the pro-Israel stance, suggesting that such lack of empathy for the suffering of innocent people is a requirement to stand along Netanyahu's regime…

poligraf, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

@VoxClamans @palestine

Netanyahu or not, displays of heartlessness and/or hatred undermine the pro-Israel stance…

the biggest threats to Israel's survival are its current regime, along with policies of domination and expansion… that being said, personally i don't believe the idea that Israel's survival is actually threatened, but rather, that some plans likely are, and rightfully so…

and if the various Israeli governments had acted peacefully over the years, Hamas wouldn't even exists…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

moreover :

« In 1977, the concept appeared in an election manifesto of the Israeli political party Likud, which stated that “between the sea and the Jordan there will be only Israeli sovereignty.” »

[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#History_of_the_phrase ]

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

not official ? the Likud is Netanyahu's party…

anyhow, that's beside the point : slogans are not actions… the current Israeli regime has committed more barbarity since 10/7 than Hamas ever did over the course of their whole existence… and Hamas never even came close to ever threatening the survival of Israel…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

« You must believe in Santa. »

trying to discredit me in the hope of supporting your claims is a clear logical fallacy… truth needs no such artifice…

again, you merely undermine your whole stance through such methods…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

Likud is part of the governing coalition, and is led by Netanyahu…

it seems you conveniently omit the blockades, occupations, illegal settlements, arbitrary limitations of rights and detentions, and generally treating people as less than humans, that were ongoing way before 10/7…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

the suggestion that « Hamas reaped what he sowed » is fallacious, as there was a context before the attacks…

moreover, there were courses of actions other than retaliation available to the Israeli regime, so to claim that Hamas took the population of Gaza hostage, or are somehow responsible for their massacre, is also fallacious…

poligraf, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

@VoxClamans @palestine

however true and factual such claims are, they don't justify to any degree the current barbarity taking place in Gaza and the West Bank…

hypothetical threats cannot justify actual massacres…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

the thread isn't about Ukraine… that i don't refer to Ukraine doesn't invalidate any of the points i have offered…

meanwhile, trying to redirect attention away from the flawed tactics (fallacies about the instigation of and responsibility for barbarity, and resort to Islamophobia and hypothetical threats to justify actual massacres) you've been using to try to support your pro-Israel stance further tells the story : you have no point, and thus you resort to artifice…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

of course, you offered none…

insinuating that all muslims will act in a certain way and/or represent a threat, because of historical events and/or interpretations of writings, is clear Islamophobia…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

you claim you don't need any artifices, but you keep resorting to them : even now you're trying to discredit me by questioning my good faith, which is a clear ad hominem…

you claim « i need a lot of artifices to avoid the facts, » but you haven't mentioned even one…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

there you go again with more ad hominems… as if anyone needed more proof of who's in the wrong here…

poligraf, 2 months ago (edited 2 months ago)

@VoxClamans @palestine

you can't point to a single artifice… you might want to consider your own ability to read before attacking someone else's…

and adding more ad hominems doesn't serve your cause… it only furthers undermines it…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@VoxClamans @palestine

when « facts » don't justify claims, they are irrelevant…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Miro_Collas @palestine

well, if the Israeli regime keeps asking for it, it might happen quite quickly… especially if people keep protesting and calling out the contradictions in the current US policies…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Miro_Collas @palestine

though choosing optimism might involve a cost in terms of personal vulnerability, exposing oneself to possible disappointment, it nonetheless allows certain actions, that other choices, such as pessimism or disengagement, typically preclude…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Bron1954

likewise, my comment was about lives in general, not specifically human life…

in other words, the life of an empire can also be cut short through carelessness…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Bron1954

« Humans are sadly mostly not compassionate, we can't even get the human race to go vegan to save the planet. »

as if this is something that can happen overnight…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Bron1954

you might want to consider that the clichéd denigrating generalizations you keep repeating about people are actually very close to the typical justifications for fascism…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Bron1954

it's not human nature : it depends on the individuals, and on the changes…

actually, it's a quite common experience for human beings to pine for change, and to feel relieved when it finally comes…

thanks to you too…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Bron1954

it's not a moot point : the full story hasn't been told yet, so it's way too early to claim that « we can't even get the human race to go vegan to save the planet »… no one actually knows that for a fact…

moreover, predictions based on scientific models are not facts either… there might just be much more time left than we can see from here…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Bron1954

appeal to accomplishment is logical fallacy : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_accomplishment

truth needs no such artifices…

moreover, trying to make it about me also suggests that you just have no convincing point to offer…

and for such a lack of respect i take my thank you back…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Bron1954

again, predictions based on scientific models are not facts…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Bron1954 who's advocating for gambling here ?

saying that change takes time actually stresses that significant action must be taken as soon as possible, precisely because change can't happen overnight…

yet, that being said, the fact is no one actually knows how much time there is left… again, predictions from models are not facts…

trying to denigrate human nature is clearly not helping… nor is stubborn pessimism…

poligraf, 2 months ago

@Bron1954

the pessimistic generalizations you've proposed about human behaviour (for instance : « people will want to go back to where they are comfortable » and « mainly because people are unable to think outside of their own environment ») are clearly not factual for everyone, and thus they don't actually reflect human nature, and therefore stating as much denigrates human nature… and it's not an insult to point that out…