The number of examples I have seen of people being told to shut up about their lived experiences with sexual abuse in the past 24 hours on this platform is deeply disturbing.
I am calling on y’all to take a deep breath and listen to women for once. There is a time and place for tone policing and it’s never the very minute a woman speaks up.
I wanna know why nobody is standing up for the bears. Just because some bears attack people in the woods doesn't mean they all will.
Most bears aren't aggressive and wouldn't actually attack anybody unless provoked. I mean, I get it. Maybe only 10% of bears would get agro for no reason. But how am I supposed to know if this one is one of those 10%?
We need to have a discussion about how the good bears are becoming disenfranchised by being lumped in with a very small minority of bears that would go out of their way to harm you for no reason. #NotAllBears
absolutely valid haha. if you don’t have the context or the emotional bandwidth currently to look into the details i have provided i encourage you just to move on, thank you :)
I appreciate that, friend. I hope my comment didn’t come off as flippant. I absolutely believe you’ve seen the shit you’re railing against, I just haven’t seen it (on Lemmy) myself.
*”Men telling women to say their experiences in a less antagonistic way is an affront to women.” FTFY
I am absolutely with you in agreeing that the bear meme is inflammatory. But this post is about women who are telling their stories about being SA’d and men dogpiling telling them to shut up. A very different matter that I haven’t seen in any other community.
This post might not be about you, but it is about a real thing that happened/is happening. Take a beat to internalize that :)
Second of all, the discussion surrounding this meme prompted several women to share their stories regarding SA, to which quite a few men brigaded and harassed those women, sometimes until they deleted their accounts.
Ohhh, that issue. Thank you! Yeah, Lemmy silencing them is not at all cool. I really hate how we are needing to sensor or provide a trigger warning for practically everything anymore. Sure some things like SA, or self harm make sense. I’ve literally seen someone put a trigger warning on a kid friendly picture of a fucking fursuit, with hashtags specifically to attract other furries. The internet has become way too sensitive about everything, it’s so annoying sometimes
There’s a viral meme whereby women are put to the question of “if you were trapped in the woods would you rather be trapped with man or trapped with a bear?” Because a bear is always dangerous whereas men can only occasionally be a dangerous (and possibly something about a man being able to fight off a bear, depending on the source). It’s a dumb hypothetical made up by dumb people to try to redeem toxic masculinity.
Okay very basically this whole thing started with a hypothetical posed to a bunch of women about which they would rather run into while alone in the woods; A random man, or a bear. A lot of women chose the bear. Reasons varied from “The worst the bear will do is kill me,” to “At least I know the bear wants to kill me,” with a general theme seeming to be that whatever tangible threat the bear posed was preferable to the uncertainty of wondering whether or not a random man would assault them.
The poster’s stated goal with the hypothetical was to get men to think about why the women were choosing the bear. Instead a lot of guys took it as a personal attack, like they were being punished for the actions of other men. Many started attacking the question, insisting that bears are way more dangerous than virtually any man. This led to a lot of dismissive responses of the criticism like “This is why women choose the bear,” or talking about women’s safety being more important than men’s feelings.
I’m simplifying a lot but that’s the basic gist of it.
To add the final unfortunate details, there was a recent discussion on Lemmy where women were sharing their reasons for choosing bear, which involved sharing personal stories of SA. Unfortunately, many men responded in a toxic manner, causing some women to delete their posts or accounts. Very disturbing and this is what inspired me to make this post, as it is quite reminiscent of the Catholic church sweeping SA under the rug.
Ah yes, this IS about the bear meme. Maybe this is a lesson that doubling down on an inflammatory meme is the worst way to attempt to get a point across, claiming that people annoyed with the meme are attempting to silence you is just trippling down.
Hey you had some decent points in the other thread. :) Please take a moment to reflect as I know you have it in you.
claiming that people annoyed with the meme are attempting to silence you
Emphatically: Not what I am doing. I am referencing literal instances where woman said “hey this is what happened to me,” and men responded in a dogpile “shut up, you are antagonizing me.”
I have no idea what this post is even referring to, though. This have something to do with the bear thing? That shit started cropping up all over my feed, then this. Explain to an out of touch aging fucker what’s going on here, will ya youngin? There’s a hay penny in it for ya
Basically an overgeneralized meme representing the very true and valid fear women have towards strange men, where if they were stuck in a forest and had to choose to be stuck there with a strange man or a strange bear, many women would choose to be stuck with a bear, started cropping up on lemmy. Unfortunately this meme ALSO hit on the lived experience that a lot of men have had where they’ve grown up their entire lives feeling like they’ve been villainized and made to be the source of all societies ills, and so they voiced, with varying levels (and lack of) nuance why this meme upset them as it felt like a further villainization. This caused more friction than nuanced discussion, and more memes that more directly antagonized those who didnt appreciate the meme started cropping up, and now we are here
TBH this really wasn’t the kind of discourse I was expecting in 196 of all places, especially since there are Tumblr posts on this sub preemptively calling out this kinda stuff for being terf talking points
I’m really glad I haven’t seen any posts like that here on Lemmy but that sounds really awful. :/
And I completely agree with your thought and intention but I still have to nitpick about:
There is a time and place for tone policing and it’s never the very minute a woman speaks up.
Of course it’s not never. Just like with men, women are not infallible and can do shit.
I know you’re (hopefully) not literally meaning it like that, but I thought it’s still noteworthy.
thanks for your kind words! and you are correct; i am using strong language there that should not be applied literally, though i do stand by the sentiment.
to be more precise, “There is a time and place for tone policing and incredible care should be taken that it is not done to silence or speak over any person’s expression of lived experience, so as not to discourage people who have found the courage to speak up.”
People “don’t want to listen” because the moment anyone speaks out against the generalizations, it becomes personal attacks against them. “you are part of the problem if you don’t immediately agree with everything I say.” That’s not to say that someone is not valid for the way they feel after experiencing something traumatic like SA and having hesitation associating with or being around men, but the accusations of being the problem towards people who are innocent make people not want to support you. It’s also very “only my feelings matter” when it starts sounding like I shouldn’t be anywhere in the remote vicinity of or exist because I might be making a woman uncomfortable.
Once when I was in high school I was in the classroom alone waiting for class to start, minding my own business and not paying any attention to anyone else. A girl walked in and told me that I looked like I wanted to kill her. I didn’t even look in her direction. How dare I be quiet and mind my own business, I made her feel uncomfortable.
It’s also funny that people are saying “y’all always have to make it about you, it’s not about you so what you think doesn’t matter.” Yeah how dare I have feelings and be offended that other people make generalizations about me and start saying I’m part of the problem.
Your comment is kind of funny because it’s definitely problematic in several ways. So I’m not surprised at all that you have heard from others before that you’re part of the problem. When enough people tell you that, then maybe you should do some selfcrit instead of continuing to victimblame women for experiencing sexism 🤷
It’s funny that you assumed that “enough people told me that” from one instance that this reminded me of. I didn’t victim blame them for experiencing sexism. I said that accusing innocent people who they’ve never interacted with and generalizing statements is ridiculous. Maybe be more specific on how my comment was “problematic” instead of some vague doublespeak.
I hope you don’t mind me joining the conversation, but I just wanted to say that I understand and validate your experience and emotions. It’s really terrible to go through something like that, and I don’t appreciate the other commenter minimizing your experience.
One thing that isn’t always acknowledged is that the patriarchy can negatively impact everyone, regardless of gender. Your story is a clear example of this. Feminism, as it works to dismantle the patriarchy, can ultimately benefit and liberate men as well.
If you haven’t already, I suggest checking out !mensliberation. I’m not very active there, but I’ve seen some really positive conversations happening. Feel free to give it a try if you’re interested - you might find some value there. And of course, you’re always welcome to stay here in 196 as well 💙🦈.
The people “speaking out against the generalizations” need to find their own space and time to do so, not to do it in direct replies to women who are speaking up about a very personal and invasive topic.
It’s an exact parallel to those who screamed “All Lives Matter” in response to BLM.
There are inumerable comment sections for men to explore and express the negative qualities of the patriarchy in their lives, !mensliberation being one I have seen that seems positive. But that space is not to be held the moment and place women begin to talk about their own experiences.
None of the situations I was talking about involved direct replies to women talking about their own experiences. Everything I’ve seen has essentially been “I’d choose the bear and you should feel ashamed.” If there are people making those kinds of comments in reply to women speaking about their experience and how they feel, I would agree with you that it is not acceptable. But 90% of what I see is blanket accusations or false dilemmas placing some viewpoint on me that I do not hold.
And in a way it does resemble “all lives matter.” But when there are people here directly saying that all men should be ashamed, that they are not safe to be around, and I have seen people saying in these threads that all men are rapists, it seems a little hard to see how that would make anyone understand or sympathize with the people making these comments. It starts to sound like “my feelings should take precedence over your existence” instead of “this is what I feel and why” or “this is how we can improve things.”
Its also ridiculous to me when it’s “but a man could rape me” but no “a bear could maul me.” If someone says that they have been SA’d or have otherwise had negative experiences, fine. I still think its a bit of a stretch to generalize it but I’m not out there saying “BuT nOt AlL mEn” to that.
Commentary isn’t irrelevant just because it’s not the exact same thing that you said. Exploring related questions/scenarios is half the point of a good discussion.
Valid! I encourage you to pop over to this post I made instead perhaps. It already has some rich discussion going on about exactly the concerns you are voicing here.
Uhhhhh they deleted the post which is very disheartening because there was genuinely really positive discussion going on. 🙁 Here is a reposted version.
And you disagree with the sentiment of that comment? Sorry, I’m trying to figure this out.
Men (especially young boys) being raped is a also a huge problem, but are you saying they shouldn’t be lumped together? Or that expressing one without the other is fine since they are sufficiently distinct?
@LinkOpensChest_wav has it correct. I do not disagree with the sentiment of that comment at face value but the comment and the discussion that follow constitute men talking over women expressing their lived experiences.
As a community and a society, there is certainly room for tone policing and discussing how best to express the terms of our oppression. But that discussion should never be forced in at the very moment a person or group has found the courage to speak their own stories, which is what happened there.
Hi, I’m going to chime in here as a male survivor of SA.
They are distinct in that the problem is far more pervasive toward women than men. If I may recommend some reading about this, the book “Everyday Sexism” by Laura Bates explores this very thing and was a big eye opener for me regarding what women experience just by existing in society as women.
This in no way diminishes the experience and trauma of people like myself, but this is a greater societal issue that disproportionately affects women. That’s what we’re talking about here.
Similar to how anyone can experience discrimination, but we need to talk about the specific groups and larger systemic issues lest we lapse into the “all lives matter” way of thinking.
Fortunately, that was always the point. The hypothetical is stupid and makes no sense. But it really trips men up and exposes them as they rush to say “not all men” in a different way.
It’s clearly ragebait, but let’s be real here: the amount of accusations against men in general is astounding. Not the real, actual cases, but the implication that by virtue of being male I’m immediately accused of being a predator. And that’s just shitty.
I can understand that a lot of men feel very attacked by that, because a whole lot of men just try to be good people. This kind of ragebait is harmful, because it will definitely turn a bunch of men hostile towards anything feminism, since in their view, they can only lose. And that’s incredibly bad.
Ya it shows how many men really are a bunch of fragile bitches and are outing themselves, its great for women.
Im a man and i know im fucking awesome so im not triggered or offended when women say they would rather be in the forest alone with a bear. Which i also completely understand because most women have had truly awful experiences with a man.
Id rather be in the woods with a bear than a man like you and im not scared of being sexually assaulted, men like you just annoy the ever loving shit out of me.
I don’t normally upvote flagrant trash talk but gotdam this is so on the nose for the issue at hand that I can’t help it. Can’t unilaterally condone the tone but if there were ever a time, place, and subject, this is it
im just sick of stupid people who lack basic empathy and then still try to play the victim. Like holy fucking shit if you wouldnt attack or rape a women then they arnt talking about you, but for whatever reason some men feel the reason to band together when they are slightly threatened in the least. Ive had bad experiences with every type of person under the sun, no one group of people is perfect but i also understand that isnt representative of the entire people. However i can say that i as a man the majority gender causing bad experiences are unfortunately men. I know how truly dangerous some men are and how some view and treat women.
Unfortunately if you’re a women alone the same thing cannot be said for seeing a lone man in the woods.
An unknown man to a lone women is truly a wild and chaotic thing. Most women unfortunately think ” is he gonna harass me, bother me, not leave me alone, assault me, intimidate me, or murder me.” Thats something that goes through most womens minds every single so fucking day.
So it pisses me off how so many lack a shred of common decency or understanding and immediately start huffing and puffing about how they are not like that.
Motherfuckas like that make me so fucking mad LIKE HOLY SHIT HOW ARE WOMEN CAPABLE OF KNOWING THAT JUST AT A GLANCE WHAT TYPE OF MAN YOU ARE. most serial killers where and are charming individuals.
if a man told me they dont wanna be in the woods alone with a women because they scared i wouldnt judge them either.
Too many men truly lack the understanding of what most women go through in their daily lives and its so fucking sad for the women who then have to deal with that bullshit. the sadder part is that many men DONT want to learn or understand.
And that is the patriarchy in a nutshell: a system that is advantageous to men, and then teaches men to consider any critique of that system as a whole, rather than of individuals, a threat or insult to be stamped out with vehemence. The people who do this shit genuinely believe that it’s unfair to be treated this way, never realizing that their attitude provides the infrastructure that allows thereally bad people to continue doing what they do.
It’s like ACAB; it doesn’t necessarily mean that every cop will abuse a minority given the chance, but that nearly every cop actively participates in a system that enables and protects the abuse of minorities, and that it is impossible to distinguish who the select few truly “good” cops are.
I think you fundamentally don’t understand my point and choose to be insulting instead.
Flip the meme to any other group. Jews and Muslims, for example. Would you say, it’s okay for either side to imply, they’d rather be with a dangerous animal than with the human? Do you think, it’s okay to say, since some Muslims historically are rabid antisemites, you’d rather be with a bear? Would you then say, every Muslim should just accept that, and if he complains, he’s one of the bad guys anyway?
And look at what you did here. Instead of actually engaging with my argument, literally called yourself “fucking awesome” and called me out for being… Yeah, what exactly? One of “them”? You don’t even know who. Yeah, the baddies, probably. Why would any of the good guys be somewhat concerned, if his entire gender is framed as being dangerous?
LMFAO youre such a stupid bitch. Id completely understand if a muslim didnt want to be in the woods alone in the woods with a jew or if a jew didnt want to be alone in the woods with a muslim. Wanna know why? Cuz i know both of them are capable of extreme hatred and prejudice. Just like most women know most men are capable of extreme violence especially when they are left alone with a a man. You getting your panties in such a twist over this truly shows how fucking pathetic you are. And cuz i am fucking awesome and you fucking suck loser. And no i dont care about my entire gender being framed because i know who i am and i know how shit most men are.
It’s less about being a predator and more about taking responsibility for the power the average dude can wield over women. Women are taken less seriously and have less social authority by default in comparison to men. On top of that, most men can physically overpower most women, a fact that doesn’t care about your feelings.
Even men should respect the danger other men can pose. Most murders are men killing men, so it’s not like men are safe. Be humble, understand the dangers, and have thicker skin when people tell you unpleasant truths.
Any man who turns hostile to women because of a bear meme was hopeless to begin with. Feminism isn’t convincing sexist men to not be sexist, it’s educating and empowering women to stand up for themselves and stop accepting vile behaviour by vile men.
Look, the bear meme was annoying but understandable, but the way that people are immediately attempting to character assasinate anyone annoyed by it or attempting to have a nuanced discussion about it is pushing people away.
Gee, I wonder if there are other groups of people who have been painted with one brush. Perhaps the is a group that is assumed to be less skilled at STEM jobs. Or another group assumed to be more prone to criminal behavior. Wouldn’t that just be something? /s
We men, especially we white men, get a fraction of the same treatment women and minorities have been getting for hundreds of years and freak out over how unfair it is. And that’s an excuse to demand everyone use kid gloves when talking about these issues?
If you’re only doing the right thing because people recognize you for it, I suggest you may not really be doing the right thing. If you’re a good person, then you should understand why the average woman may show fear and caution when encountering an unknown man.
Things like the bear meme aren’t asking about YOU. When people say “I’d rather choose the bear than a man” they aren’t saying every man. Yes, the generalization stings when you think about it being applied to yourself. But if you truly understand the issues and the hypothetical you understand that the answer isn’t about you. It’s about what women have learned to expect when encountering a man they don’t already know well enough based on prior experience
So discrimination is okay if it hits the right people?
Again, an entire group is set out to be predators for no fault of their own.
I’m portrayed as a predator, because some idiots are, and I’m supposed to view that to reflect myself, because some other people are also treated badly? That doesn’t make sense. This is purely parroting the party line, chastising oneself what an evil counterrevolutionary one is.
No positive, but tons of new hostility. Awesome. That’ll take humanity in the right direction!
Literally yes. It’s called punching up, and it’s pretty well accepted, culturally. It’s basically the only trade-off to being vastly more likely to achieve economic and societal status.
We’re not talking about an enslaved group here, but women. Yes, disadvantaged in many areas, but far from being universally inferior in every aspect. If I’m punching up, you know, who I hit? Several women. Hell, my chancellor has been a woman for literally the majority of my life.
Again, what does this achieve? Hostility of those who don’t want to be put on the same level as rapists. Instead of blaming the very real predators for their very real crimes, they’re blaming every man for being a man. That’s not punching up.
You’re not listening. YOU are not portrayed as a predator. YOU need to take a backseat for the betterment of the lives of the victims of injustice. Just because something isn’t your fault doesn’t mean it’s not your responsibility to deal with it when you are in the class of people benefitting from the injustice.
As the other commentor said: punching up is very, very different than punching down.
When a specific person treats you, specifically, poorly because you’re a man, THEN you can talk about how you are not a threat, and try to convey that you are actually an ally (which is questionable based on your reactions here). But when there is a conversation about average behavior and expectations, side with the victims. You are not a victim. You do not lose more than you gain from being a man. Maybe you get weird looks when you’re solo-parenting but you still make $1 to a woman’s $0.79 or whatever the number is today for soemeone in the same job.
So please, stop focusing on yourself. It’s selfish. Try to think about the bigger picture. And yeah, take one for the team when it comes to memes about bears
Tell me, exactly, how I am not meant? I’m a man, men are portrayed as universally dangerous. How am I not implied here?
Thinking I’m not meant is wishful thinking. And it’s extremely interesting, that suddenly I’m portrayed by you as a bad guy, because I say “hey, I’m not a bad guy, why do you call me that?”. I explicitly mentioned the very real predators. But you ignored that.
And thinking like yours is exactly why there’s so much hate. I don’t subscribe to the party line, that men have to shut up and just have to accept that they are all potentially vile beasts, and thus I have to be one of the vile beasts. Don’t you see that? Do you really don’t see what you’re doing here? You’re creating the us vs them chasm. You’re alienating people because you’re just now actively accusing me of being a bad guy. And yes, it’s about me, because I’m a man and this meme is about men. I’m in it. Just like you are.
You’re still not listening and it’s obvious you don’t want to. You seem incapable of stepping outside of your own lived experience and considering the experience of others. You take everything personally, rather than looking at why the generalization might be valid even if you consider yourself an exception.
I’m a 6’1" burly, hairy, white guy with a deep voice. My wife knows I couldn’t hurt anyone. The stranger on the street does not. So I don’t take it personally when women get startled in public if I’m unexpectedly boisterous near them. And I wouldn’t take it personally if, given the chance, a woman chose to create space between us on an empty street at night.
The fact is, other men have made the world harder for us. And that sucks. But not nearly as hard as they make it for women. So if you’re going to be pissy with anyone, aim your disdain at the shithead men who created this situation instead of the women who just want to feel safe.
It’s easy to demand women “don’t discriminate” against you. It’s hard to demand men behave better. That’s the difference between punching up and punching down. Learn to punch up instead of taking the easy way.
And to head off the obvious counter argument: it’s different than race because men actually, demonstrably hold positions of power and privilege over women simply by being men. The same is not true of skin color, etc. Again, punching up vs punching down.
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