Very cool how neoliberals and libertarians are being annoying weirdos and nonchalantly defending Joe Biden as he continues to support the Palestinian genocide
What’s really funny is that some of the same infamous neoliberals appear whenever a post like this is made, going, “Are these neoliberals in the room right now?” because they know its them, but they can’t help but express themselves in a condescending, implicitly ableist manner.
I’ve been enough arguments with some of these same exact users that I’ve concluded there’s little chance of either educating them or understanding their position. I just know they’re willing to gloss over atrocities for optics, and I feel like that’s all I need to know about these people
What I hate is when politically driven assholes decide to post their political opinions in a community that’s about shitposting and memes to lighten the fucking mood out of the whole god damn infinite doomscrolling we go through every day.
IDGAF if you’re left, right, center, up, or down; go talk about that shit in the political communities. Or actually be proactive and do something instead of bitching at each other all the fucking time in every corner of the net.
except this is a prominently queer, and consequently predominantly leftist community (since large parts of the right want us dead). being apathetic to politics is a luxury marginalized people don’t have, and that helps build empathy towards other oppressed groups
I’m predominantly queer, too. You don’t have to be apathetic about it; just keep it separated from the non-political stuff. And I’m not necessarily talking strictly about this community, but in general I see politics get brought up everywhere, often times in very inappropriate places and it just turns into a flamewar with the bulk of the discussion getting nuked when people start crossing the line and saying shit that’s ban worthy.
The picture is a pinned political statement in 196. 196 is inherently political because leftists (especially LGBTQ+) are forced to be political, often to not be killed. Apartment 196 is not exclusively about shitposting, it’s just that the community that lives in 196 seems to be very good at it
There was a lot more of this. Though nowadays, especially after the disaster, r/196 has lost its leftist edge. There aren’t as many posts about world events as there used to be. Or about the people.
Very cool how accelerationist leftists deliberately misunderstand the points being made and paint those who disagree with them slightly as being pro-genocide.
Very cool and not bad faith at allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Obviously I’m not going to write a thesis (especially since I don’t think you’re arguing in good faith, considering how ubiquitous it is to see liberals accuse leftists of being bots or Trump supporters) – but here’s one example.
Edit: OP screenshotted a bunch of comments from this community. You seem to be ignoring that. Scroll up the thread.
Nothing in your screenshot or the ones OP posted show anything resembling someone responding to someone saying the US president should stop aiding genocide by calling them a fascist or astroturfer.
Even in your screenshot, nobody is calling you a bot or a Trump supporter.
I’ve yet to see anyone, and definitely not swaths of people, saying anything like what’s in the last panel.
The only time I’ve seen anything close is when people threaten to not vote or vote for Trump in the general election. But I DO see a lot of stuff like this complaining about it, more than the inverse. My uncharitable assumption is that people are getting comments that disagree with their takes and assuming it’s the entire community.
I’ve been pretty consistently accused of being a bot and/or Trump supporter, whenever I point out that Biden supports genocide. Maybe you don’t see it because it’s not directed at you. Empathy is hard…
I eventually asked to create my own community where I can freely post just because these people are like soldiers trained to derail any discussion that paints the US system in a bad light. I even had one user follow me here from another instance just to harass me. Guess it’s a compliment having my own personal troll! Kinda ironic though that they are what they accuse you of being.
I’m glad you’re enjoying your time on kbin though, and I hope you stick around.
A now-deleted-post was inundated with that shit hence that post was made. OP screenshotted some of the comments. There were many more, the post was basically a lightning rod of horrible takes and completely misunderstanding the US primary system
Per my view, Israel has the right to self determination and the Jewish people deserve to have a country to call home. IMO, this right is not based on any religious belief but their history in that region. The Palestinian people are not Hamas though, they’re people unlucky enough to born in that region and in this time.
Politicians killing children to stay in power does not do justice to the ideals of Judaism and is a disservice to the Israeli people as it alienates them from their neighbors. If I could, I would advance understanding between Muslim politicians and Israeli politicians in that region, but it’s not my field lol
I kinda wish society would be more secular as I think that would resolve a lot of issues in that region, and also in the US tbh.
So to answer your question, I think that’s the frustration that people feel when they encounter this situation and you see it in memes etc here and there
Politicians killing children to stay in power does not do justice to the ideals of Judaism and is a disservice to the Israeli people as it alienates them from their neighbors.
Also (and I can’t believe that I need to say this), killing children is wrong.
I kinda wish society would be more secular as I think that would resolve a lot of issues in that region, and also in the US tbh.
Perhaps some things would improve, but this is a war over resources, not religion.
GW Bush literally dropped bombs on Iraq because he believed he was fighting against Gog and Magog. Religion is a huge part of the instability in that region. The Iraq war is kind of related to this conflict as the (mis)treatment of Muslim nations and Muslims in that region by Western powers and their allies often is because of religious motivations
Why is this community filled with people deliberately sowing discord by misrepresenting the conversation and accusing people of being neoliberals and libertarians defending support of a genocide?
Edit: This community is blowing up about a handful of people misunderstanding the primaries, while this (pic) bullshit is actually rampant, but gets UPVOTED here! At least he didn’t say he liked the Harry Potter game, I guess.
Maybe someone here can help me because idk how to feel about this whole conflict.
On one hand, Israel is fucked, the sentiment towards everyday Palestinians and the civilian death toll have been unquestionably bad.
On the other hand Hamas and Hezbollah are also fucked up theocratic and anti semitic regimes that do not have the best interest of their people in mind, not the sort of people I’m super enthusiastic to support, I don’t even see things necessarily getting better for the Palestinians in a multi state resolution, and a single state resolution which is not devastating to them is practically impossible.
So far i have agreed with zizeks take on the issue (both states are bad and want eternal conflict at the expense of the people), but there seems to be no solution to go with it.
If we understand this sense of negative and positive freedom, what appears as a contradictory stance within anarchism makes perfect sense. An anarchist might firmly believe that the Palestinian people deserve to be liberated from occupation, even if that means that they set up their own state. That same anarchist might also firmly believe that a Palestinian state, like all states, should be opposed in favor of nonstatist institutions. A complete sense of freedom would always include both the negative and positive senses—in this case, liberation from occupation and simultaneously the freedom to self-determine. Otherwise, as both actually existing Communist and liberal regimes have demonstrated, “freedom from” on its own will serve merely to enslave human potentiality, and at its most extreme, humans themselves; self-governance is denied in favor of a few governing over others. And “freedom to,” on its own, as capitalism has shown, will serve merely to promote egotistic individualism and pit each against each; self-determination trumps notions of collective good. Constantly working to bring both liberation and freedom to the table, within moments of resistance and reconstruction, is part of that same juggling act of approximating an increasingly differentiated yet more harmonious world
This situation is fucked to the point where any solution is going to be extremely complex. Right now the only thing to do is get a ceasefire to get the Israelis to stop killing so many Palestinians
The sentiment I’m trying to convey is that I go to specific places for politics, not here. I don’t think politics, in general, fits here. I avoid political posts and discussions in non-political spaces because politics, especially in the US, is extremely and demonstrably polarizing. It very quickly leads to toxicity which makes the community more stressful for me. I absolutely do not want to see it here. I would want to see it in a politics community where it belongs.
You don’t have to flame me for my opinions. This is exactly what I’m talking about: I’m getting flamed for trying to be apolitical about this. I don’t think it’s too much to ask for political posts to stay in their lane and out of my favorite queer memes community. I should be allowed to feel this way without persecution and we should be able to have a civil conversation about this. Calling my views a shit take isn’t productive.
Yeah, it’s a pinned post. That didn’t go amiss. Cool story, bro, but I don’t want to see people arguing about shit here. If this is a shitpost community, stop arguing and get back to shitposting.
This is classic 196 discourse, especially when fighting against people who downplay various rights (or life in the case of the Palestinians) infringements!
It’s ok to feel overwhelmed - just avoid these types of posts and do not click in!
But apartment 196 never was and never will be apolitical when people are dying and trans lives are being threatened. 196 includes politically advocating for groups that need support to live, in addition to the shitposts
I can appreciate this. It’s important to do what we can for the betterment of our cousins, but there’s only so much energy a person can spare. You’re right. I’m checking out of this post and I’ll aim to avoid posts like this in the future if I’m not in the headspace to be proactive.
People try to meta game on politics. They want their side to win so they think they should support policies that will win over other voters rather than what they support. People think that Jewish people will support Biden if they blindly support Israel because Israel = Jews or something. It's really braindead thinking.
The 2024 Presidential Election is a real big issue where most people feel like they are voting for the lesser of two evils. What solutions do you recommend?
Right now the only option we have is the uncommitted campaign for the primary to get Joe Biden to stop being a genocidal moron. If he keeps supporting it he’s going to lose the election regardless of how much people organize for him. He’s lost support with Muslim’s and younger people, especially with swing states. If doesn’t reverse course we’ll be stuck with Trump trying to turn this country into a dictatorship
this entire thread was removed because the mod believed that third comment, that it was an astroturfing attempt.
which i get, even though it was a mistake, i guess it’s an understandable mistake.
but it’s nevertheless depressing. i personally don’t stand by the “genocide joe” mantra but i am staunchly with those voting uncommitted. and i hate to see people doing their best in the face of genocide being condemned as fascist.
Oh, you’re the person who responded to my message in that now-deleted post and I couldn’t figure out why I couldn’t see it anymore or respond to you. (I’m with you btw, we weren’t fighting lol) Thanks for this post because I thought either Lemmy was broken or I was using it incorrectly
I’m really bummed out by 196 getting flooded with assholes trying to make bad faith or stupid arguments for standing with Joe Biden, we’re all on the same side here, we don’t want Trump elected but if Biden keeps supporting the Israeli genocide of Gaza then he’s going to lose regardless of whether or not people vote for him
Really? Because all I’ve seen on 196 are people making bad the faith argument seen in this very post.
but if Biden keeps supporting the Israeli genocide of Gaza then he’s going to lose regardless of whether or not people vote for him
This is where the disagreement comes in. This sentence implies that a very significant percentage of Democratic voters will either vote Trump or stay home if Biden doesn’t make a hard left turn against Israel’s actions. But that doesn’t seem to reflect reality.
Most American democratic voters are against the violence perpetuated against the Palestinians. And somehow, most Americans still support Israel. I don’t know how that makes sense either, but it’s true. There’s a LOT of americans very upset with what appears to be WH apathy about the genocide. But most Americans just don’t care that much about things that don’t affect them. They care way more about abortion rights, immigration, the “economy” and such and are more much likely to become apathetic about those than a genocide elsewhere.
I think the point is that Democrats are making absolutely no concessions to anyone who’s not extremely right-wing or pro-establishment. I understand the concept of damage control, but what I’ve seen leads me to believe that Democrats are willing to dismiss the concerns of any leftist or progressive, even using dehumanizing tactics like calling us “bots.”
I myself plan to protest in the primary but vote for whatever ghoul they put forward, but I can totally sympathize with people who can’t morally bring themselves to vote for someone who is actively contributing to a genocide, who is increasing the number of innocent refugees being imprisoned and deported at the southern border, and the like.
I think it’s also worth noting that committing genocide is never okay, no matter how many Americans think otherwise. What would happen to me if suddenly the majority wanted me in the “out group.” This is why we call it “fascism” – that’s not an exaggeration, it tracks with what Biden and our nation have been doing.
The uncommitted vote is an easy way to tally how many care enough to protest vote. In Michigan, where the messaging beyond the anti-genocide sphere was strongest (this movement has little money), almost 20% of the vote was “uncommitted”. That’s a significant portion of the Democrat base that cares enough to protest vote against genocide! Keep in mind there’s plenty of Democrats who oppose the genocide but wanted to show support for Biden as a whole. Support for ending the genocide is significant, and while the news orgs continually downplay it, for a large amount of voting Democrats it is clearly a priority to end the US-funded-and-supplied genocide of a people who literally cannot escape or be protected in any way.
And do not equate “supporting Israel” with “ending the genocide”. Israel have extensive strike capabilities and defensive capabilities including the Iron Dome, the Palestinians get entire housing units imploded in the blink of an eye. If the US did everything it could to force Israel to stop the genocide now, Israel as a country will continue to exist. If the US does not stop the genocide, the Palestinian people in Gaza will not continue to exist. When Israel attacks the bottom quarter of Gaza that is still standing yet holds almost all of the Palestinian people, the civilian casualties will be enormous since they’ve all been penned in there (hence this is termed a genocide).
You are correct on the general voting topic. All people, regardless of party affiliation, with any critical thinking skills are aware that Biden will be better than fascist Trump (for Gaza “complete the mission” and the US #insurrection) and come general will vote for Biden. I understand some want to “make him sweat” but that must be done in other protest venues as in the general it’s a binary choice between Biden and fascist-who-is-worse-on-literally-everything. So I am confident the vast majority of Democrats who voted uncommitted in the primary as a protest will vote Biden in the general, as any alternative does not make logical sense.
The post in question that garnered all of the comments referenced by the 3 following meta-me-mes that were posted here, including this one. The post was about ending the genocide of the Palestinians via urging Biden to use his influence by way of the uncommitted protest vote.
OP made the post in question. OP clearly strongly feels that Biden has the power to end the genocide or at least significantly curtail it and not enable it, which is the correct analysis of the situation.
I interacted with many people who clearly did not understand the US primary system in that post and informed them. But then the clear astroturfing began. OP captured many examples in their screenshots but it is not OP’s job to document all of the Bullshitticus, but I seent it. Additionally keep in mind that “defending genocide” to OP, and many others, can be people saying that the protest vote was wrong because it would weaken Biden in the general because people would also vote uncommitted there, a clearly stupid take. But that take has been manufactured to dampen support for the “uncommitted” primary vote campaign, and thus continue enabling the genocide of the Palestinians. Basically, the need to end the US-funded and enabled genocide surpasses whatever hoops people dream up for why you shouldn’t protest vote, since lots of civilians are dying and have literally no escape.
Essentially, yes OP’s post is factually correct, I am a first person witness, there were many out-of-196 bad actors saying horrible things, OP is not insane or stirring shit, it is good to call for the end of the genocide of the Palestinians, OP is correct that Biden is enabling the genocide, even in the face of pure fascism we must not give up the right to speak out against tyranny elsewhere
There is simply not a hoard of people out here telling people that they are fascists and astroturfers for saying the US president should stop aiding the genocide. None of those comments even come close to demonstrating that.
The mental gymnastics you had to do to spin it like they are is just ridiculous.
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