Need to get off the grid fast. Is a gas or diesel generator my best option?

The energy suppliers in my area all have contracts I do not agree with. My gas & electric service may be cut in a couple weeks.

What’s my best move? I need enough electricity to power a mid-sized refrigerator (but could downgrade to a minifridge if needed), a few lights, router, laptop.

My boiler is gas but I have an old previously used mazut tank and furnice which I could possibly get working again with some effort.

Not sure what to do for cooking. Maybe use a portable electric cooktop.

(updates)

I’m favoring diesel over gasoline, for these reasons:

  • My large mazut tank could store a year supply diesel but I doubt I could safely store gasoline in that quantity. It’s questionable though because it has mold or something growing in it so I’m not sure if it needs to be cleaned (or whether cleaning it is even possible). Or maybe the mold is harmless.
  • Mazut and diesel may be compatible (not sure). That is, maybe a diesel generator can burn mazut or perhaps the mazut furnice can burn diesel. Guess I should find out how different they are.
  • Clean biodiesel can be made in a basement from waste cooking oil and lye. I can probably get the waste oil at no cost.

W.r.t renewables, it’s in a densely packed city with a tiny terrace so wind turbines are probably impossible. Solar panels may be viable, I need to look into that. But I would be really surprised if solar could warm the house in the winter -- it’s not a passive house (in fact not even insulated). I think solar would be a nice clean & quiet supplement.

Camping propane or butane stove may be the way to go for cooking.

DV8,

I’d recommend reading this article: arstechnica.com/…/i-disconnected-from-the-electri…

The author probably went further than you want to go, but it’s probably got some good tips to minimize your power usage.

greengnu,

Skip the batteries for now, get a few solar panels and an inverter. Skip depending on a fridge until you can get batteries in. But more details about your must haves, want to haves and nice extras would enable more exacting calculations.

Details on basic setup can be found here: anarchosolarpunk.substack.com/p/offgridsolar

ciferecaNinjo,

The guy suggests not mounting the panels on the roof. That would be my only option. Then he mentioned hail. Well that would seem to blow it. We get flash hail storms. They’re short enough that in the time it would take me to protect the panels (assuming I'm home) the storm would stop and the damage would be done.

radec,

I agree. skip the generator and skip batteries for now.

Put some ice blocks on your fridge that will help it stay colder longer and run less often. Also add some rigid foam insulation around the outside of it and the door (don’t cover any cooling coils or fans or anything like that) OR get a small chest freezer and use it as a fridge, you can often find them used for cheap or free. Freezer tend to be better insulated also a top opening chest freezer is less convenient to store/organize stuff in but it holds cold better because it doesn’t dump out the door every time you open it.

vacuumflower,

offtopic: Such a nice post for a place themed “green energy”, LOL.

poVoq,
@poVoq@slrpnk.net avatar

slrpnk.net/c/offgrid would have been the better place indeed 🤷‍♂️

vacuumflower,

Yeah, I meant that normally people focused on being able to live off the grid are often aggressive towards green energy proponents and vice versa, because, well, gasoline and diesel fuel and all that are good to be autonomous, but very, very not green. I’m thinking of survivalist types.

JacobCoffinWrites,
@JacobCoffinWrites@slrpnk.net avatar

Honestly not even that autonomous - there are a lot of ways to make electricity as an individual, making gasoline is much harder (diesel or something close enough maybe but it’s still going to be an ongoing project). Hard to be off grid if you’re making trips to the gas station

vacuumflower,

Rather “asynchronous supply” than “off grid”, yes.

I’d argue that as an individual you’ll find early XIX century approaches most realistic, like from Jules Verne’s books sans possessing all the industrial knowledge of contemporary humanity.

ciferecaNinjo,

I’m favoring diesel at the moment for a few reasons:

  • I have a large mazut tank which could store diesel. Although it has mold or something growing in it so I’m not sure if it needs to be cleaned (or whether cleaning it is even possible)
  • Mazut and diesel may be compatible (not sure). That is, maybe a diesel generator can burn mazut or perhaps the mazut furnice can burn diesel. Guess I should find out how different they are.
  • Biodiesel can be made in a basement from waste cooking oil and lye.
MooseGas,
MooseGas avatar

Is propane an option? I have a propane generator.

ciferecaNinjo,

Not sure, but perhaps worth noting that I have no car. I guess I need to see if propane is cycling distance and consider a bicycle trailer for hauling it.

JingJang,

Propane can also be delivered in many areas.

mbelcher,
mbelcher avatar

You need to pull your usage records from the electric company to have a baseline of what you will need in terms of Kw over the course of a month. It should be on your bill.

Then figure out what you can cut, and what size generator/solar panels/battery backup you'll need to get by. Make sure to figure out what you are going to do in the cold months and the hot months.

THEN figure out if you are even allowed to be "off grid" in your area. You may be required to keep the electric line running to the house, but you can shut this off at your breaker box so you won't use any electricity. You will still get a monthly bill from the electric company for the hookup (it's usually very small, $5-$15).

best of luck!

taladar,

The energy suppliers in my area all have contracts I do not agree with.

Is this disagreement about price? Judging by the other comments all the off grid alternatives will be significantly more expensive, noisy, maintenance-intensive and polluting.

ciferecaNinjo, (edited )

It’s about payment (not price). They all refuse cash and the contract requires agreement to pay using a bank. Being unbanked (and refused by banks) makes it impossible to comply with an energy contract. That’s the abstract simple overview. It’s a big mess of systemic problems. I think I can pay cash for mazut though, once I get the mazut system running again.

JGrffn,

I know you’re probably oversimplifying a lot and this may not be the biggest issue you have with the service companies, but if payment method is what’s keeping you from getting the services, can’t you go to the bank the companies rely on to do a deposit directly into their accounts, then mail/message their billing department with your payment voucher? Pretty sure you don’t need to have a bank account to do this. The bank may deny you a bank account but I doubt they’ll do something about a cash deposit, and the service companies should be able to receive a manual transaction record.

ciferecaNinjo,

It’s not quite like that where I am. I know in the US anyone can walk into the bank of the other person and get stuff done. And there’s not even a surcharge for that IIUC.

And I don’t suppose many cashless banks exist in the US. Indeed, there are banks that simply cannot handle cash even if you have an account with them. I.e. no vault! Nowhere to put cash so you cannot make a cash deposit. If you need cash and your ATM card isn't working, these cashless banks have a bizarre hack: the clerk makes a temp emergency card, walks out of the bank to an ATM with you, pulls the cash out, and hands it to you. But not the card. If you need cash again and your card still doesn't work, you have to repeat the nannied process during banking hours. It’s like that in Denmark.

Theoretically I can go into a post office and pay them a fee to send money. But the hunt for criminals and the has lead to the payer being required to show a smartcard ID. In my case the software run by the post office took a shit and froze. I can only guess why.. possibly because the chip showed I was not registered as an official resident- which is not required unless I’m staying more than ~6 months or so. I bounce around so it wouldn't be sustainable for me to register as a resident even when I'm not, just to overcome a programming fuck up every time I need to send money.

Apparently the system has been hardwired to make some foolish assumptions by reckless people who find it acceptable to marginalize nomads/road warriors, anyone with an unconventional lifestyle, etc.

P00Pchute,

Depending on how often you run it you should look into doing a setup similar to what I have listed below.

One, get a gasoline Honda generator. 7000 kw ideal 3000 minimum. Depending on how many loads you’d like to run at once will decide on your size generator. Don’t go too big or fuel consumption will be excessive. Too low and you will not have enough to do what you need to or will wear it out prematurely. Make sure to get roughly 25 to 50 gallons worth of gas cans too otherwise you’ll be stopping for fuel multiple times a week.

Add in an 2000-3000 watt pure sine wave inverter/charger and a small 700-1000ah battery bank so that you can run your lights, router, small fridge, fans, furnace etc when the generator is not running. Idea is to add in some solar panels so that your small loads won’t require you to run the generator every day all day long. Run it when you need to cook, or power large loads and let the inverter system power the small loads when the generator is not needed.

Stock up on good quality oil for the generator and change the oil every 50 to 75 hours depending on how hard you run it. Oil changes are critical to longevity of an engine and the MFG suggested oil change interval does not have the consumers best interest in mind. Change oil early or change the engine early.

SJ0,

Gasoline and diesel will get you power fast, but remember it’ll cost 10x per kWh compared to the grid, so it’s a temporary solution unless you’re a millionaire.

schroedingershat,

Does it though? At $2/L and 20% efficiency, electricity from diesel is 25c/kWh or less than my local grid charges.

Horrifically polluting, but not expensive compared to grid electricity. Would even take a year or two to pay off ground mount solar at 40c/W

SJ0,

Meanwhile culpa, power is a quarter of that here.

schroedingershat,

10 x 6c is still 60c, so you were still way off (and how much is generator oil where you live)?.

ciferecaNinjo, (edited )

One way to improve efficiency is to make use of the wasted energy. So my question is- are most generators liquid cooled or air cooled? Would it work to replace the radiator with a heat transfer component that heats radiators throughout the house?

Horrifically polluting

Perhaps a long-term option would be to refine waste cooking oil into biodiesel. A former colleague did that and copious research along with it and found biodiesel to be so much cleaner burning than petroleum diesel that the life of a car diesel engine doubles when burning biodiesel (something like 500k miles before the engine needed a rebuild).

Hillock, (edited )

You probably want a gas generator since diesel smells terrible and you don't want that anywhere near your home.

You just need to make sure you get one that can run long enough without having to stop. Most portable can't even run an entire day. If you get a stand by generator, that shouldn't be an issue. But you might still need to take a break once a week.

In general gas generators require more maintenance and have a shorter lifespan. But you probably want to switch to another energy source all together. A generator is. only good for 10,000-30,000 hours. Which is 1-4 years if you are using it every day.

A diesel generator would last longer and is easier to repair. So if you plan on using a generator for the next few decades, get a diesel. But I would suggest adding solar power asap and then only using the generator as backup. That way even a gas generator could last 20-50 years.

For cooking get a gas stove. You can just get a 1-2 burner stove or a full on stove and just hook it up to a cannister rather than the gasline in your home.

Chup,

But how would that work without infrastructure? OP said his gas and electricity would be out. To supply a gas generator, he would have to buy a new gas cylinder every few days? Is there even a supply for that? I would only know camping sized propane suppliers in my region but that is not enough for a house. Also I do not know if my gas burner would work properly with propane or require specific gas properties.

The handling and storage of diesel, as well as the supply should be way easier - even in large quantities. There are also no high pressure containers involved.

Hillock,

For the generator you get a big enough tank so it lasts a few weeks or months. Then you call a gas supplier to fill it up as needed. It's no different from Diesel except doing it yourself isn't an option. But the amount OP would need also makes diesel not convenient for diy and you end up paying someone to deliver you hundreds or even thousands of gallons.

For the stove you just use a propane tank for grilling. It will last several weeks or even months. It's a very common setup here in the Philippines because there is no infrastructure for gas.

ciferecaNinjo,

For cooking get a gas stove. You can just get a 1-2 burner stove or a full on stove and just hook it up to a cannister rather than the gasline in your home.

Good idea. Maybe I should be looking at camping stoves and get in the mindset of camping. Perhaps a charcoal grill would make sense too.

P00Pchute,

Unless your using a 1800RPM industrial generator you will be lucky to see 2000 hours of use. Any generator you can get at Home Depot, Lowes, etc will not last long. They hold less than 2qts of oil and do not have oil filters. They are in no way made to be used in a prime power situation.

Hotchpotch,

Both will blow a lot of dirt and greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. What about solar panels or a windmill?

Hillock,

Neither can be realistically installed in a couple of weeks. Depending on where you live, the waiting time for a battery is already 3-4 weeks.

theory,
@theory@feddit.uk avatar

Would that generate remotely enough power?

Hotchpotch,

That depends on how many sun hours or/and wind you’ve got at your place, how much panels you can install and of course how much light you’re using. I don’t have the knowledge to do the math on that.

Is there a free market to buy (sustainable) electricity from at your place? Or are you forced to buy from the local/regional provider?

I_Miss_Daniel,
I_Miss_Daniel avatar

Solar with enough panels and storage can do a great deal. For cooking consider an induction cook top as they're about double the efficiency of a traditional stove.

Batteries are kinda pricey though. I guess it depends on your budget. Perhaps a generator for standby or night time / overcast power.

crossover, (edited )

Solar panels can generate plenty of power. My house basically runs off Solar 8-12 hours a day (8kw system). Air conditioning, laundry, and all the electronics. My stove is gas though.

The expensive part is battery storage. My system for example can generate 20-40kwh excess power each day. But buying a 10kwh battery to keep things running overnight costs more than my whole solar system already.

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