I hope to some day live somewhere that allows me to take a train to where I want to go mid to long distance and the ability to walk short distance to the rest.
Here’s the thing: I live in a mid sized city in Brazil. As in America, Brazil is very car centric (thanks, Kubitschek). But there’s no trains. The capital city of my state has a single urban train line, and I think it’s the only in the whole state, that’s as big as France.
Your options here are:
use a car and endure the traffic;
get a poor planned, crowded and falling apart bus, and endure the traffic, because they rarely have exclusive lanes;
get a motorcycle, so you can split lanes and get through the traffic, but risking your life and not being able to carry more than one (adult) person and a handful of small items;
or use a bicycle in this very hilly and mountainous place, with close to no infrastructure to make it less risky.
I chose to use a motorcycle (although I couldn’t afford one yet because we’re poor), but I understand that for anyone with a family, owning a car is not a choice, it’s a necessity (and it’s a very expensive one)
First we have to convince people here that this is a problem at all. Most people think that the solution to the traffic problem is more roads, more lanes, cheaper cars, and better buses.
The buses are bad? Just make them better. There are too many cars in the streets? Just make better streets
Buses are that bad usually because they are a monopoly or very close to it. The government chooses which company can do public transportation by rigged licitations, and no other company can do it. Then they have no reason at all to do a good job.
Most people seem to have given up on the idea of more train lines. No company can do it, only the government. Every politician promised it, but adding train lines to an existing city is very hard, so none do
Agree to all points. Sadly this is prevalent among countries with political corruption (my country included). And these are the countries that have the least buying power for general public and therefore the the societies that would most benefit from public transport and micro mobility infrastructure.
Hopefully having a global discussion helps bring out awareness. My local politicians regard the US as some sort of gold standard, therefore I am hopeful whenever the US makes “fuck cars” infrastructure changes.
I get that you are being snarky, but in Japan, they have trains that take you to the middle of nowhere. So, yes, a train can. At least, to your last mile car option.
I get this is absurd on purpose, but I don’t think having a decent amount of groceries on hand is crazy. I don’t drive and I aim to not have to go to the store every other day. 2 weeks seems about right for grocery store frequency.
Not really sure if this is for or against my comment (or just neither), but to clarify, I’m saying I do load up on 1-2 weeks of groceries without a car and I don’t think it’s unreasonable with or without a car.
When grocery stores are close (walkable) it becomes super convenient to just go there every few days instead of managing a stockpile of food. Works way better for small spaces and for eating fresh foods. Don’t knock it til you try it!
I’m not saying that’s unreasonable either, tbf. I don’t live in walking distance to a grocery store, though, and neither do most people I suspect, so bigger shopping trips just make sense. It would definitely be nicer to have a store nearby, though!
Fun fact: suburbs and related approaches to the design of land use are structured around increasing the distance between homes and services. The idea is to isolate the suburbanites (at the time, white people) from everyone else so that their material conditions could become disconnected and racism catered to. Red lining and all that.
So a big part of the reason things are so far away is so that capitalism could continue using racist policies to get what it wanted. And now we have to buy 2-3 weeks of food at a time even if we don’t live in suburbs, as our infrastructure is built around the expectations of the surrounding suburbs.
Anyways it’s not your fault you’ve gotta stock up so I don’t blame ya! We’ve all gotta deal with structures in our society that we had no control over.
From my perspective it’s sorta crazy. How does one even have the space for several weeks of perishable groceries, or move them effectively from the store home. It all seems like so much wasted space.
Also how does one plan buying all you potential cravings for two weeks. I sorta don’t get it, emotionally I don’t.
I encourage you to try living a <10min walk from a grocery store if you ever get the chance. Right now I’m at< 3min to walking to the grocery store. It’s the best. Especially if it’s open till midnight or god forbid 24/7.
Utter bullshit. It’s not about driving from a to be.
Have you ever brought your old and ill grandparent to a doctors appointment 20kms away when he can’t hold it anymore - via train/bus? Have you ever took your grandma to the grocery shop via train/bus? Have you ever get home as fast as possible because of a accident at home? Have you ever done anything outside of a big city?!
In places designed before/not for cars you'd have places within walking distance like groceries. In the doctor scenario, we've had adult diapers for a long time. Your solution is you let them pee in your car?
In the doctor scenario, we’ve had adult diapers for a long time. Your solution is you let them pee in your car?
And your solution is they shit themselves on public transportation?
I mean, I’m 100% for better public transportation and urban centers designed around walking, but let’s compare apples to apples here.
They didn’t make a straw man argument, they had a point. It’s a genuine issue and they deserve better than a flippant remark telling them to make grandpa wear diapers so he can piss himself on his walk from the bus stop.
And your solution is they shit themselves on public transportation?
Do you not understand how incontinence works? Someone who can't hold their bowels or bladder wears diapers, full-stop. Sometimes this is due to an underlying issue that can be fixed, sometimes not. In either case the person has to wear adult diapers at least some of the time.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make. This person will be wearing diapers regardless of their transport. But you seem to disagree if they are being driven in a car. Therefore, would you allow an incontinent person to not wear diapers in your car, where they may have an accident?
My point is that the “piss in the car” comment was mean, thoughtless, and added nothing. If grandpa is incontinent, then he’ll wear diapers regardless of the car or the bus.
Your comment was either a.) implying that messing themselves in public was better than in relative privacy, or b.) if you use a car, grandpa doesn’t get to wear Depends.
Take your pick.
It might not be what you meant, but you were too busy being a jerk to notice that it’s what you said.
And more importantly: it's rare I post a rebuttal just for the person I'm responding to. Most people aren't going to be swayed if they made an emotional argument. It's for everyone else who sees it. Also me. It feels good to get thoughts out, sometimes.
@Miclux Oh wow, it's almost if villages or small towns could be improved with better public transportation options and fewer cars. This is a great revelation, thank you for this chat.
The photos OP is sharing are depicting 10 or more lanes. That’s precisely about a big city. Meanwhile the situation you describe, e.g doctor 20km away, no train/bus access, seems to be about not a big city. I believe you two are not talking about the same problem even though both are valid.
People who advocate for better public transportation usually also advocate for walkable neighborhoods. Your grandparents would not need a car to go to grocery, it’ll be at a walking distance. Same for doctors.
As for emergencies, yes, a car would be nice. But you can always get a can in that situation. No need to destroy the planet every other day.
Let me ask you this, have you ever done anything outside of a car only dystopia?
My god are you privileged. 2 towns 30km apart. Less than 10k population not trainstation, no doc, no hospital. Calling people words that just live and work for others is such a cunt move.
Are you willingly missing the point? Those town exist like this due to having a car centered society. Look at any other country where car isn’t the only means of transportation. Towns are closer together, with shared infrastructure so that such a situation does not arise in the first place. That’s what everyone’s advocating for. No one’s calling you a monster for using cars in a car dependent society. But realize that things can be better, and vote for change whenever possible.
And about the privileged thing, I literally grew up in rural India lol.
Edit: Also, who called you any word? Don’t play victim here.
What? Do you think using a truck to carry goods for hundreds of people and using a car everyday mostly to transport one person are same things?
Also, who said anything about destroying a car? I said that car culture is destroying our planet, which is a fact. You’re the one taking it personally lol.
Even cities below a population of 100k have their own hospital and dozens of doctor’s offices all within a ten minute walking distance from each other.
A population under 10k is closer to a village than a city. There are towns with a population of 5k that do indeed have their own clinics and even their own train stations as long as they are not located on the side or the top of a mountain, though it is extremely rare for a mountaintop settlement to have a population greater than 3k.
It is honestly baffling to see that people can not fathom that urban sprawl can take shape without suburbanization. You can have houses concentrated into small splotches of land and those are chained together by a singular road and railway. Everything around that is just farmland. That’s just how villages look like in Europe.
Sure, if you live in that ten minute walking distance. Sometimes I think progressive movements are their own worst enemies. The nearest urgent care facility to me is 26 mins, by bike, on main roads that are used by cars and trucks. Some spots have a bike lane (which is its own joke and hardly safe). I'd love to see how many actually fall into the "ten minute walk". I don't even have a pharmacy that close, and we've all heard the meme about a Walgreens/CVS at every corner.
Point is, those who are able to use mass transit or are in places where things are conveniently close seem to always chime in with victim blaming of those who aren't like them. It's a subtle version of the "if you don't like it, move".
I would love a world where everything is local and self-sufficient, but all the calls to action never talk about how to get there from here, they only say we should do "something" now. A trip without a roadmap will just get you lost.
All you’d have to do is do away with american zoning regulations and use european urban design principles instead. The market itself is impatiently waiting for that change in policy to happen.
I live in an ivory tower in Brooklyn where there’s like 5 groceries, urgent cares, and pharmacies within a 10 minute sidewalked walk. (and not fancy Brooklyn). Sometimes I forget most everywhere else kind of sucks for transit, but I’m lucky enough that I can choose not to live those places.
Yes, yes, we get it: folks like you and @Miclux are those special snowflakes who’re always the exception to any possible argument an urbanist could make.
But guess what: that very quality means that people like you are such a tiny minority that you don’t matter and there’s no reason anybody should give a shit what you think (on this topic, anyway). By all means, keep driving! Since you’re a rounding error, it won’t make a difference anyway!
Now quit your reactionary bitching and let society solve the problems for the vast majority of folks that the solutions do apply to.
I have done most of those things, ~95% of everything I have ever done was in small rural towns/villages. I don’t have a car, refuse riding as a passenger, and no license either and don’t feel the need to get one at all. Admittedly I live in a 15k people city right now but that is just way too much so I’ll go back to something smaller as soon as I can. And I don’t live in the US so I got that going for me, which is nice.
this is a weird instance, to be sure. I thought it was satire, but there’s a lot of people who seem to lack the ability to think critically about transportation in general.
your comment isn’t even irrational at all. but you’re being downvoted because you don’t ascribe to the theory that the world should be all butterflies and rainbows and everyone can just walk everywhere or take public transport.
public transportation can be great. but it can be so bad it’s basically unusable.
all stuff I read in here sounds like a bunch of kids preparing for debate team about whether cars are “good” or “evil”
The only issue I have with this take is how it ignores how the changes happened over decades, not overnight. Of course no one would choose any of these pictures, but that's not how it started out, and the slow changes is exactly why we bought into the idea. It also can't be easily undone or changed, even in a progressive society.
the slow changes is exactly why we bought into the idea.
And slow changes can bring us back.
It also can’t be easily undone or changed, even in a progressive society.
Who said it had to be easy? Most things worth doing aren’t.
It is more important that the goal will serve us and that it will bring us value. That we are unwilling to postpone longer before it becomes even harder.
The Netherlands chose to do this when it was easy (easier anyway). Canada and the US made the choice to postpone then.
Other nations are chosing now, should we join them now? Or should he wait until the damage is even harder to undo? How many more must we slaughter and maim in the streets? How much more must we pollute our environment? Do we chose to act, or do we wait until action is forced upon us?
Evey road in north american must be resurfaced every 10-50 years. Car don’t last much longer that 20. That means without any additional resources, this can be done in about 15 years.
I should start handing these flyers out at gas stations on Sunday on the I15 from Vegas back to California. People feeling like shit hung over cursing traffic for hours on end, the usefulness of a train alternative is super apparent in this situation.
Even while having a car, I found my self taking transit anyways. To the point where both my daughters (15 and 17) have absolutely no desire to get a car or their drivers because not only do they see what’s happening to the climate, but know transit well enough that vehicles are next to pointless for them. My understanding is that many, not all, of their friends thing the same way, too.
That, and I don’t care if you drive a BMW. My ride costs 150k, and comes with a driver who opens the door for me. Fuck cars and the status that goes with 'em, too.
Also, it’s ironic that cars are supposed to be a status symbol because “public transit is for poor people” but cars are practically mandated and cities where public transit exists are expensive to live in thanks to high rents.
Actually, it’s public transit that should be the sign of wealth and cars that are “for poor people” but something tells me that by some strange alchemy, that means a car is a sign that one is a salt-of-the-earth working class type now.
Are there any non-extremist anti-car communities around? I hate cars too, but I also hate simple, blanket solutions like the world is easy or something.
For some people, not driving is just death from starvation. So, no. Thanks though.
The ironic thing is that there really is a “simple, blanket solution” in this case: changing the zoning code to stop outlawing density.
It’s not a fast solution – the law can be changed at the stroke of a pen, but the redevelopment enabled by the rule change will occur over years and years – but it’s the only one that actually solves the problem.
For some people, not driving is just death from starvation
That seems like the exact kind of thing many people are against. All of this was by design in order to create a dependence on cars. This is not how it has to be. There are a lot of alternatives that are worth investing in.
I don’t believe anyone would suggest to immediate destroy all cars right this second without putting in any kind of necessarily alternative infrastructure. That would be a pretty extreme stance on the matter.
I would like to see the US government stop subsidizing cars and start subsidizing alternatives such as trains so that maybe in 30-50 years we can start to see that it is possible to live without driving a car.
This toxic ass community is the same as BLM and anti work. Both have good intentions but alienate most people with their terrible names.
At least anti work had a better named workreform equivalent. But BLM shoulda be accountability for killer cops or something. I bad at naming shit too but hopefully you get my point.
Fuck cars is about infrastructure and mostly just cities. But it’s so terriblely named it will never catch on.
Fuck cars is mostly a meme community spreading ideas from the larger urbanist movement, which has the benefit of having a less hostile-sounding name.
The meme community inarguably manages to recruit new people into the urbanist movement, and I haven’t seen strong evidence that it’s alienating more people than it is recruiting, fwiw.
I don’t see anything extremist in this community. It’s mostly complaining about problems with cars and a few memes like this post. Talking about alternatives is fine here, as per the rules. There isn’t much as far as other communities to discuss alternatives, at least not that I’ve found. Here’s what I can point to:
Add comment