Observation of a selection of infinite “possibilities” results in collapse of the wave that encapsulates those possibilities into a single outcome.
You can have the electrons from an electron gun start all shooting into one direction based on whether it’s observed or not. And that’s because each electron is equally likely at all times to go in any direction along its waveform of possibilities. But it will never suddenly start firing lead particles or entire dogs.
The universe in which multiverse theory can’t work would be an isolated universe in which every outcome is already observed and quantum theory and waveforms like the ones discussed before can never be observed.
It doesn’t mean multiverse theory isn’t real, it just means that universe can’t ever even grasp the idea because it’s in a situation where it’s like a 1D person trying to understand a 3D world. There’s enough of a gap that it’s feasible that no intelligent life could ever come to the conclusion they’re an outlier.
Being a sample size of 1 is the most difficult hurdle to overcome in science. And in truth we’re also a sample size of 1 until we somehow manage to make contact with other universes.
I’ll tell you what, I’ll you a universe inside a multiverse that is essentially unreachable and for all intensive purposes could be treated as a universe where the multiverse is false, are we good?
A multiverse is something external to any one universe in that multiverse, so even in an infinite number of universes there cannot be one which redefines what’s outside that universe.
The way it was stated is not a paradox, it’s simply logically invalid.
Valid statements would be that in a multiverse there can be one universe where it’s impossible to access the rest of the multiverse or that there can be one universe were the theory of the multiverse was never and will never be thought of.
And then of course, on top of this there is @Carnelian’s even bigger point, which is that it’s perfectly possible to have an infinity of possibilities which are all bound by certain rules. A simple mathematical example: there is an infinite number of decimal numbers in between the integers 0 and 1.
Yeah, if there’s a multiverse where all possibilities play out, and if any universe can directly affect another, then there’s an infinite number of universes that do affect or get affected by others and there’s an infinite number of universes that don’t.
Just like time travel with multiple timelines. If you travel back in time, you’re splitting off at least 3 timelines. One is the original where the past remains unchanged and you timetravel, one is the original where the past is the same and you fail to timetravel, and one is the original timeline up to the point that you travel to, at which point it diverges probably very drastically (which makes me think that traveling back in time will be a one way trip because your original timeline won’t be very close to the new one’s future). Though if you can travel back to the future, there will be one version where you never do to pair with the one where you do.
Though I’m not holding my breath on any kind of direct influence between universe and timelines other than maybe something like gravity from one can affect others, and really don’t think that traveling from one to another will be possible. But who knows what is really possible, as advanced as we might be compared to our past, I wouldn’t be surprised if our knowledge is still just a drop out of a whole ocean.
are u saying that all those who up voted the meme, did it just bc they didn’t understand what they were reading? tbh i didn’t even understand the first sentence you wrote. That means you must be very smart. Not sure if i will up vote u
What always bothered me about multiverse moves is how a person’s life could be so different across universes, even though their ancestors lives must’ve been fairly consistent across universes or they wouldn’t exist. Hell, forget about whether you would be born, would humans even evolve? Would life even evolve? A lot happened between the big bang and your conception. A lot could’ve happened. I’m just talking out of my ass though
Such movies generally explain it as there are other universes locally clustered to yours. As in, there are so many universes that some are only a few decisions/variables off yours
Although ones like Star Trek’s Mirror Universe are absurd. If humans remained that warlike and aggressive the timeline would be drastically different, with few counterparts existing.
I often think about the silicon lifeform from A Martian Odyssey because of how uniquely different it is from the carbon-based lifeforms we’re used to seeing even in science fiction.
One small change can lead to a totally divergent path. Think about it this way. You are supposed to meet your SO today at work. But you forgot to brush. No big deal. Right? Well your SO says hello, so you say it back and then she gets a whiff. Well end of conversation and that’s that. No wife. No kids. Not with her.
Or maybe you miss that buss that you barely caught. Or maybe you win the lotto at 19 and that changes everything for you.
You’re thinking wrong if you think lives have to be drastically different in every way for it to manifest as a whole new life. It can be the smallest thing but that tiny, infinitesimal thing can lead to a cascade of change or shunt people down an entirely different path.
Lastly, your ancestors would also be subject to these events, making all their lives very different as well.
right, but some movies show universes with very different pasts that still show a weirdly similar present. As you said, the smallest of things in the past should cause the present to be even more different, but in many movies that’s not the case
You are correct in thinking that there would be an infinite subset of universes where humans never evolved. However, there would also be a much smaller, but still infinite, subset of universes where humans did evolve. And there would be a muuuuuch smaller, but still infinite, subset of universes where the history of the universe and all of human history transpired exactly as it did in our universe, up until the point it diverged with the necessary changes in order to be relevant to the plot of the movie. That tiny tiny tiny subset is the only thing we talk about in movies, because otherwise it would be too confusing for general audiences. Hope this helps.
Let’s say the theory of infinite multiverses is correct This means that there must be a multiverse where a version of me is able to traverse the multiverse. Then if there is an infinite version of this verse, then surely one of them will choose to visit my verse. Therefore doesn’t this disprove the infinite multiverse theory? As no one has visited me yet?
There could be different laws of physics in this universe that makes it near impossible for somebody outside of it to visit. Or, from another perspective, would you wilingly visit yourself?
We don’t know that, if multiverses are real, that it is possible to travel between them. Infinite variations doesn’t guarantee this, because that just effectively means that all possible universes exist. Were multiverse travel to turn out to be impossible, then nowhere in an infinite multiverse would it exist.
Smaller and larger infinities exist. If the set of universes where you exist is larger than the set of universes where you have multiverse travel, then most of the time, you won’t be in a universe that gets you a visit, even though the number of both is infinite.
If the way the system works is that a new universe is created for each possibly each time something happens, then every time someone travels to a different universe, it will diverge into one where the visitor arrives, and one representing the option that the visitor does not arrive. No matter how much travelling is done, there will still be a set, indeed an infinite one, representing the scenario where no visitor arrives is what happens every single time any multiverse travel occurs. In that set of universes, you never have received any visits.
Or the laws of physics are just the same between all of the multiverses, and it’s impossible to travel between them. Maybe the walls between universes are so thick that nobody will ever even detect that the other universes are there at all, making it basically the same as there being no other universes in the first place
This is actually a huge pet peeve of mine. Just because there are an infinite number of possibilities doesn’t mean anything is possible
Let’s investigate the list of natural numbers. 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. It stretches on for infinity, but nowhere in this infinite set will you find the number 2.5. Or negative 1. Or countless other examples.
Next let’s consider a warehouse with an infinite number of CDs, each burned with a copy of the Donkey Kong Country soundtrack. Each of these discs are different. They have slight differences in the label, diameter, and flatness, due to manufacturing tolerances. They have different random bits that get flipped sometimes due to solar particle collision and quantum variation, which may eventually make different discs unreadable. They decay over the centuries at different rates, due to temperature and sun exposure differences in the warehouse (climate control for an infinite space is very expensive).
Each of these discs are, materially speaking, completely different from one another. But, from the perspective of our limited human perception, they are for the time being completely interchangeable. Whichever one you select, you will listen to and have the same experience.
This is by far the most likely scenario if we indeed live in a multiverse. An infinite number of earths, with an infinite number of you, lives filled with all the same mistakes and triumphs, all reading this comment together right now.
due to the nature of infinity — a la monkeys and typewriters — you could have not only a single CD that due to a catastrophic series of errors is actually something completely different from a CD — but an infinite number of them.
Is it entirely beyond the realms of possibility that an infinitesimally small stroke of luck could create a sentient race of CD people? Except “small” doesn’t make sense in infinity — “small” just means “a less common certainty”
An infinite series of random letters would of course contain every book, that’s definitionally true.
But infinity itself does not empower the whims of the imagination (indeed this is the entire point). Yes, it is definitely impossible for the warehouse to contain a sentient race of CD people. Polycarbonate plastic simply cannot exhibit any of the qualities of being alive under any circumstances
I know I’m nit picking here but that’s the point of examining infinity, but wouldn’t it be foolish to say “there are no examples of hydrogen gas becoming sentient under any circumstances!” because, well, we’re both sentient decendants of a reaction between two or more hydrogen atoms.
Yes the conditions that led from hydrogen > helium > deuterium > … > … > … single celled organisms > … > … primates > … > … humans are incredibly complicated and specific. But what if we applied the same complicated and specific process (or an infinite variation thereof) to the CD factory. Are you sure it’s impossible? and worse yet - can you prove it?
Are you sure it’s impossible? and worse yet - can you prove it?
This is known as an argument from ignorance. I’m not sure how familiar you are with this terminology, so to be clear, I am not insulting you or calling you ignorant. But in summary, something is not true until proven otherwise.
The conditions inside the warehouse are not similar to the conditions of the early universe or the primordial soup. You need to demonstrate a mechanism for stable, non-reactive plastic to become sentient if you assert that it’s indeed possible.
for one - it’s an infinite warehouse, so the parts of it that are near stars, black holes, planets, moons and comets are destroyed, sucked in etc, creating several stable “rare-Earth” conditions at the Goldilocks distance from heat sources, and using the debris from collision follows the same basic principle of how life on Earth started, but with melted plastic from the burned cds instead of in water. Life - uh - finds a way.
Natural numbers doesn’t contain 2.5 because we define it so. Similarly all those CDs are practically the same because it’s made in a factory designed to minimize the variance. Is there a similar strong will or intention in how a multiverse evolves?
I suppose then you’d have been more satisfied with the example of an infinite number of grains of sand, each polished smooth and strewn across an infinite beach.
Or simply an infinite expanse of empty space, each with unique coordinates, yet unable to be differentiated in the absence of any reference.
The point being, infinity itself is a concept we defined a certain way. And no part of that definition mandates variation. People who hear “infinity” and immediately conclude that, in one universe they are a singer, and in another they are an astronaut, and in another still they weren’t born at all, etc., are making an incorrect assumption about the nature of infinity itself.
Framed another way, we have exactly one example of a possible universe. Tell me, what creative force do you believe in which would intervene to ensure other universes play out differently?
I think a creative force is required to ensure other universes play out similarly, not the other way around. Things naturally spread out randomly instead of unified, variances accumulate to cause chaos instead of order. Similar to how the overall entropy always increase.
Do things naturally spread out randomly? Given the same hand reaching into the same lottery box, does some inherent law of the universe guarantee that the number drawn is totally unpredictable?
Given our predicament of having limited information, and limited capacity for understanding, I agree that statistical models are some of the best tools we have, and a very practical way of navigating the world. Many things are effectively random to us, after all. We cannot hope to comprehend every variable at play when all of the numbers cascaded into the bucket.
But how random is it really? The electrical signals firing in your brain are as random and quantum as we could possibly imagine, yet somehow, you experience a single continuous consciousness, waking up as yourself morning after morning. How could that be possible if cause-and-effect were superseded by some principle of inherent chaos? Do you propose this randomness is merely too subtle to detect? In that case, it would be unfalsifiable, leaving us forced to conclude that the hand always draws the same number.
Things can be random and chaotic but if the effects are slow enough then we can still find order in a short period. Evolution is randomness + natural selection but it happens over such a long period we can’t really feel it. Yet we are affected by and products of evolution.
Once again, we model genetic variation as being “random” because we cannot currently predict it accurately, but in truth it’s no different than the lottery. You have quite the task ahead of you if you intend to prove it is necessarily and totally chaotic.
If things are usually “seemingly random” to us it would imply the multiverse would also be “seemingly random” to us. I don’t see the need to prove the chaotic to be truly, whatever that means.
Well, if you don’t care about proving anything, and you simply believe your assumptions are facts, then why are you discussing it with me? Please continue to think whatever you wish, just as I will continue to remain unconvinced by your gut instinct on this topic
Likewise I’m not convinced that I’m the one who needs to provide proofs in this discussion. You already said that “we” model genetic variation as being “random”. And the model is working great. Therefore it is only reasonable to assume things work according to the model unless proved otherwise. A model doesn’t need to be 100% correct to make correct predictions. We still use Newton’s physics model to predict things (flawlessly) even tho it’s not a “truly” correct model.
Um, sorry to say friend, but Newton’s laws are actually just approximations. This is the entire basis of the emergence of quantum theory.
This perfectly illustrates the error in your thought process. You live life assuming that whatever pops into your head is the truth. Well, look where that’s led you, you actually believe physics has not improved since the 17th century.
I’ll give you a hint: scientists do not simply write “this seems reasonable to me, therefore I feel no need to prove it” underneath their theorems. You made a claim, and you need to provide evidence if you expect to be taken seriously
It means it doesn’t predict correctly in quantum physics but still predicts correctly in 90% of other cases such as motions and thermodynamics in daily scales. Why do you think schools still teach those if it’s not useful?
It’s taught because it’s a convenient way to teach children the scientific method, and has some practical benefit in low stakes problem solving. Those who progress beyond the basics realize there is more to physics than predicting the final destination of a billiards ball in a perfectly frictionless vacuum.
Although if you want to believe everything you learned in high school is the Truth with a capital T then you do you. Explains a lot actually
It’s an analogy, the specific case doesn’t matter. It demonstrates that infinite does not mean literally everything, it’s possible for some item to be missing from any particular infinite set. In a box of infinite apples you won’t have an orange; in a box of infinite fruit you won’t have a chicken; in an infinite multiverse you by definition won’t have a universe which isn’t part of that multiverse.
Is there a similar strong will or intention in how a multiverse evolves?
Well, if we’re talking about the many worlds theorem, then probably yeah, because both worlds came from a common starting point and evolve together. Like, imagine that I flip 100 quantum coins, creating 2^100 (1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376) universes in a multiverse. Every universe will be different, but the vast majority of them will have roughly 50 heads and roughly 50 tails. 7% of them will even have exactly 50 heads. There is one universe where every coin flip lands on heads, but it’s only one universe among nonillions, you could spend your entire life searching universes and never find it. None of the universes are the same, but most of them are so boringly similar that you couldn’t tell them apart. It’s the central limit theorem, that lots of random events trend towards uniformity
nobody really knows, but if I had to guess I’d say that’s probably the way our universe would be, our universe might technically be different from the one next to it, but it would only be different by a single electron on mars that decided to move an atom to the left. There might be a universe somewhere where all of the particles in a lotto wheel quantum tunnel to make the winning number be your number, but it would be outnumbered an infinity to one by universes where that didn’t happen and it looks exactly the same as ours.
That’s true when you only looks at the point of start or point of differ. In each of the universe other random events will keep happening and the accumulate of variances would have chaotic effects.
Whenever I think about the possibility of a Multiverse it just gets so unbelievably convoluted that I can’t believe that that’s how the Universe/Multiverse actually exists. Is the idea that every potential change in every atom or event in the Universe leads to all these other Universes, all co-existing, no matter how small & insignificant the differences? So we’d have a ridiculous number of Universes whose sole difference from ours is that a single atom behaved slightly differently in a rock out in the parking lot. Then multiply that by EVERY possible atom in the entire Universe, all behaving slightly differently.
That’s just physical matter, what about conscious decisions made by living things? So in one Universe I filled my bowl of cereal with X oz of milk VS another universe where I filled it with X+1 oz of milk, and so on. All these micro-decisions that branch out into separate timelines, multiplied by the number of living entities in the Universe, every second of every day.
So are new Universes just constantly springing into existence at every moment in time, connected to every atom and every living thing, just brought about by tiny differences? I write some gobbledygook here: aksfhkashdf in one universe, adshfoasfdoajsidd in another, pooigjmasiodmfas in another, and so on. Multiple universes all suddenly springing into existence based on random key presses? Universes can’t possibly be that “easy” to create can they, all that mass and energy, just poofed into existence, and it’s constantly happening every second? Is mass, energy, and space just meaningless?
Or is it some other more basic set of differences describe the universe, just the starting conditions are different, but from there, each different Universe just proceeds as is, without multiple branching timelines? I’m not smart enough to understand any of it, it just quickly gets so incredibly convoluted and complicated for me to wrap my brain around.
All the universes existed from the start. Most just haven’t diverged yet. At any given moment, there are an infinite number of completely identical universes.
The universes literally split, and some quirk of quantum mechanics makes this actually possible.
They aren’t universes, they’re timelines. All the universes are in quantum superposition with each other.
There aren’t actually multiple universes. It’s just acknowledgement of the infinite possibilities. (This is how I like to think of most quantum mechanics, tbh.)
I think a lot of people assume a multiverse works that way because popular fiction makes it look like it does. However popular fiction is using something more akin to an omniverse (idk if there is an actual agreed scientific definition for a collection of multiple multiverses so Im just using that).
Using your analogy with the donkey kong discs being different universes with slight alterations in the warehouse (multiverse). In an omniverse scenario that you see in popular fiction, next door you’d have another warehouse but instead of donkey kong discs it is mario discs, or maybe donkey kong plushies.
However again that’s all speculative of if there even is a multiverse let alone something larger than that
You haven’t disproved anything. The common understanding of multiverses typically only extends to livable multiverses, but there are infinite multiverses capable of sustaining logic and organization, just as there are infinite universes of junk data.
I have disproven that an infinite set necessarily contains every arbitrary possibility. And quite simply, too. Notice how the set of natural numbers does not contain any grapes.
Thus, the burden of proof is now on those who claim they do know what is in the multiverse. Such as yourself. What evidence do you have for these “junk data” universes?
I’m going to blow your mind with a simple bit of logic. IF the junk data universes don’t exist, then the multiverse isn’t infinite. Order is an infinite subset of disorder.
You’re talking about countable infinities vs uncountable infinities, but you’re proving my point. Order is a countable infinity, disorder is an uncountable infinity. You’ve just abstracted yourself into a corner.
Grapes and real numbers are both finite distinctions of a shared infinitely ordered set, which itself is part of an infinitely disordered set. Numbers are an infinitely ordered set that do not contain grapes. Grapes are part of many finite sets that are also part of an infinitely ordered set. Both exist within disordered and ordered sets as well. You’re not describing limitations of the infinite like you think you are. You’re only describing the limitations of your understanding of the infinite.
Exactly this. I think the real problem is that “infinite” is virtually impossible to comprehend, so people regularly misunderstand what it means and how it works.
They’re slippery concepts to be sure. Language itself becomes an impediment when discussing the subject. How can one use terms which were created to narrow perspective in order to expand consciousness to encompass the ineffable?
What blew my mind is that it hasn’t been proven that pi contains an infinte number of ones, for instance. It’s not out of the question that there is a decimal place where the last 1 appears and there are none from then on.
It’s not really likely, but we simply don’t know and it is possible. It sounds weird given how many decimals of pi we’ve calculated, until you realise we’ve literally calculated 0% of them.
From a mathematical standpoint you’re right, but from the standpoint of application pi has an infinitesimal accuracy without going to 45 digits. At 3.1415926535, we’re more accurate than the distance between 3 atoms.
I don’t see how that’s relevant. Plus your last sentence sounds like you’re just repeating something you heard but forgot a part of it, because it makes no sense as it is.
The part they’re misremembering is that if you used 39 digits of pi as pi (not 45), it would be enough to calculate the circumference of the observable universe with a forward error of less than the width of a hydrogen atom (not the distance between 3)
Yep! Pi might be a “Normal” irrational number, which is a really poorly named classification that basically means that the “random” arrangement of numbers in pi isn’t weighted and so you’ll end up with 1 in 10 digits being 1, and that that will be true for all bases. We’re kind of at a point where we think Pi is “normal”, but we can’t prove it.
If it is “normal” though, then that means that you could find any arbitrary sequence of numbers inside of pi, somewhere. Meaning that in base 128, pi would contain the ascii sequence for every book ever written, every book that ever will be written, every book that could be written, the accurate date of your death, and anything else you could ever imagine. Again, that’s not proven, but we think it’s the case
There could be a multiverse and there are some universes within the multiverse where the people within them don’t believe in the multiverse, but not believing doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
Scenario B:
Conversely, there could be only one universe and the people in that sole universe believes in the multiverse, which in this scenario, doesn’t exist.
And also, multiverses aren’t part of universes. There isn’t a state where countries don’t exist, because countries aren’t part of states. States are part of countries.
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