You know, when neo-nazis align themselves with anti israel leftists, I would say that’s not good, but apparently western “communists” kniw better then anyone, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”, enjoy being on the same side with neo nazis, must feel great isnt it?
So? Israel is on the same side as white supremacists and far right Christian extremists. Your logical faculties are garbage.
Besides literally no one on the left is looking at Neo Nazis and saying “the enemy of the enemy is my friend”. You’re just making shit up because that’s easier than trying to defend what the IDF is actually doing right now. It’s always games and misdirection with the pro-Israel crowd.
Think of Jordan Peterson. There was a time where he was riled up against “ideologies who would kill people in the name of a higher good.” And he named examples, Stalin and Mao most prominently. For all the abstract criticisms of ideologies, he rarely distances himself from Fascism, named Hitler only very occasionally as an example.
Now he is forethinker for the Republican Fascist party which is now normalizing the exact dehumanizing language that the Nazis used to prepared and justify their concentration camps.
Antifascists caught his thought patterns early on and warned of him using fascist arguments much more sensitive than most people, the missing distancing from Hitler along his other prominent examples being one of them.
Now, dear leftists, the mirror of this arguments wants to ask you if you are really only motivated by reducing human suffering and wanting peace. And if so, you cannot ignore the role of Hamas in this longtime ongoing conflict nor in this war. If you skip that, if that’s not in your mirror, it’s big time necessary to go outside your bubble. Because then chances are you are a puppet playing the propaganda trumpet for the Hamas, or otherwise playing in their hands.
Tedious as it may be, missing distance to a terrorist group like that in a conflict like that is a big red flag.
And just as a tedious albeit necessary disclaimer, I believe Netanyahu and quite a bunch of other Israeli actors belong in a courtroom and then in jail for their atrocities, and certainly not in power.
And if so, you cannot ignore the role of Hamas in this longtime ongoing conflict nor in this war.
Israel created Hamas, because they wanted to destabilize the PLO and Fatah. They continue to recruit more people for Hamas by killing fathers, wives, and children indiscriminately. Israel’s only path forward is genocide–either literal, or through the absolute destruction of Palestinian identity–much like we did in the US to the Native Americans.
That is at best a totally skewed version. Yea we know Netanyahu for a few years let the Hamas grow, and we have records of him with vaguely the reasoning you have there.
But to make Israel entirely responsible for the existence for the Hamas, and for what the Hamas does and wants, demands a world view of an all powerful Jewish government that plans and executes for immense time frames that span generations. Don’t we have that thought pattern in widely spread antisemitic conspiracy theories?
Lmao. It’s beyond pathetic how hard people try to paint literally anything as antisemitic at they can shut down dissent. Do you actually think anyone takes this kind of comment seriously? It’s such a ridiculous stretch.
Not to mention that to set it up in the first place, you had to lie and downplay Netanyahu’s involvement with Hamas as if it doesn’t matter. Lies on top of lies. You must think the rest of us are so fucking stupid.
But to make Israel entirely responsible for the existence for the Hamas
Well, they largely are though, because they created the conditions that allows Hamas to flourish. Israel is the country that has been waging war against the Palestinians. Israel has continually fought against making real progress on a two-state solution, and Israel is the one using it’s army to let Israeli colonizers take over more and more Palestinian land in the West Bank. Israel is thr country that is illegally occupying the West Bank. Israel is an apartheid country.
Hardliners–like Netanyahu–oppose any peace process with the Palestinians, and oppose allowing them to have the land back that is rightfully and legally theirs. Hardline Israelis are every bit as deranged as evangelical Christians, and for largely the same reasons.
This isn’t about anti-semitism, unless you want to insist that Israel is a Jewish ethno-state, and that any opposition to Israeli policy, politics, and military action is actually antisemitism.
Your comment reads like you’re addressing mostly the history since 2005 or so. I definitely see that Israel after the 2nd intifada has had a very different strategy than before, including these things that you outline.
Just don’t ignore that there was a history before. There was an offer for a 2-state solution on the table where the world agreed it won’t get any better. Arafat just walked away and started the 2nd intifada instead. Hamas is still much older than that. Irans support of the Hamas is newer, though.
It’s so lame to blame it all on Israel. My take on this still is that for the security of Israel, it doesn’t matter much what Israel does. Their tries for peace negotiations were largely ignored, and their hard crackdowns do shit for their security. The signal to deescalate the conflict must come from Iran, which will impact how Hamas and Hisbollah work.
Arafat did not just “start[…] the 2nd intifada instead”. Israel wasn’t really negotiating in good faith, and was=–at that time–actively undermining the PLO and Fatah. There was a lot of shit that led up to the 2nd Intifada, and putting the blame on Palestinians, when Israel shoulders a lot of blame due to the actions of their hardliners, is simply historical revisionism. The very fact that Israel continued restricting movements of Palestinians, and weren’t–and aren’t–willing to dismantle settlements in the occupied West Bank are some of the direct causes. You’ve also got the provocation of PM Sharon (of Likud, the same party as Netanyahu) showing up to temple mount with an armed contingent that directly kicks off the Infitada.
Every sane person just reading the news of what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank can make their own conclusions. If you really value human life no matter the religion, ethnicity or skin colour you can see a clear pattern.
I don’t need the exact numbers to know how bad the situation is. I have a couple of questions for you:
Do you agree that the civilian casualties on the Palestinian side far exceed those on the Israeli part?
Do you agree that a large chunk of the population in Gaza is displaced and currently living in makeshift tents?
Do you agree that there is an ongoing humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza?
Do you agree that there is increased violence and imposed restrictions in the West bank by the IDF, and that far right settlers are persecuting Palestinians and killing them.
Weren’t there members of the Israeli parliament calling for nuking Gaza, to do the same in the West Bank, etc?
What about illegal settlements, land grab, numerous human rights violations, etc.
I also want Hamas gone, but don’t think this is the way.
Yes, there is all that. As I said, I think Netanyahu and his bunch belong in jail, not in power.
But even if this guy is out of the way, here’s a few more questions to consider:
Do you agree that after Oct 7th, Israels strategy of building a wall and an “iron dome” must be considered totally failed?
Do you agree that the Hamas can not be talked with?
Do you agree that in addition to the Hamas, Israel is surrounded by militant groups that want to erase the state from the map?
Do you agree that in the past no palestinean negotiator honestly considered a 2-state-solution?
What are, positively speaking, Israels options? What should a moderate follower of Netanyahu do to achieve some sort of piece? I’m lost here. Do you have any ideas other than saying “not this way”?
By being involved in a constructive dialogue, ready to make concessions, outlining a plan to withdraw some Israeli settlements in the West bank, giving more autonomy to Palestine, active persecution of settlers, who are violently attacking Palestinians in the West bank. No double standards in their treatment. In exchange for peaceful disarmament of Palestinians and power transition to PA, but also disarmament of settlers. Removal of some of the checkpoints, outlining a plan of removal of more checkpoints if certain criteria are met. Reconstruction of Gaza.
And tell me how restricting water and food in Gaza helps IDF, I can to certain point understand the fuel ban and to a lesser extent the electricity ban, but food and water are essential for every human being and limiting them is a human rights violation.
Unfortunately at this point there is a lot of bad blood on both sides and this is definitely not a good start.
Then surely they condemn Hamas, support their removal from the face of this planet, and call on their elected representatives to put boots on the ground in Gaza to do so with minimal loss of innocent life? Surely they do those things. Surely you do those things, right?
nah, I would go more along the lines of abolish the apartheid system in Israel, stop specifically targeting civilians, stop committing pogroms in the west bank, and stop supporting Hamas because you don’t want the PA to be able to actually argue for a two-state solution, etc…
the list is long, and surprisingly most of these options don’t involve attacking Gaza in some form of retribution, nor do they involve the ethnic cleansing/genocide (and yes, what Israel is doing is a genocide by the UN definition we came up with based on the Turkish genocide of Armenians)
edit: where exactly does this bullshit of “Palestinians rejected every attempt at a two-state solution” bullshit come from? the only “two state solutions” they rejected were the soviet style client state proposals Israel came up with, the whole reason the PA exists instead of the PLO is that Palestinians were ratifying the Oslo Agreements, until Israel decided it wanted to keep occupying the west bank because it’s clearly rightfully won land, leading to an expansion of illegal settlements, and anti-Palestinian violence and racism.
You mean these kinds of UN definitions? The kind that the current conflict doesn’t even come close to meeting? The kind of definitions that nearly all of Israel’s neighbors have fallen into against them over the past few decades? Those kinds of generations right? That’s the kind your smooth tankie brain is thinking about right? Those? The definitions that every war against Israel can be categorized under? Sure thing buddy.
You mean keeping the land with strategic importance since Israel’s neighbors have tried to invade a commit genocide through it multiple times? The area that Hezbollah and other groups used to shell Israeli civilians? That part of West Bank?
You are aware that Israel even proposed a two-state solution where they’d give an equal exchange of land while they maintained the strategically important parts in the West Bank? But you know who rejected that, right?
You’re trash. Every moment of self improvement and education you’ve had is completely wasted. You couldn’t argue anything for shit. That’s why you’re sitting here online as a fucking anonymous loser.
You’re right, we can condemn them both in the same breath. Which I’ve done myself. But the vast majority of the “pro-Palestinian” crowd on here seems completely incapable of doing so. In fact, if you call them out on it, they just double down on “Israel is a monster!” and excusing atrocities committed by Muslims. 🤷
You are incredibly hostile towards people who have no part in this tragedy. You are also creating a strawman of Crazy pro-hamas lunatics, most people critical of Israel are also anti Hamas and we agree that they are terrorists. Anger is acceptable in this situation but you are directing it at what is at best a vocal minority or at worst you creating a strawman to deflect attention from Israels wrong doings.
I mean, it’s not like the majority of Gazans have supported Hamas or elected them to office. Are you saying it’s unfair to hold people accountable for the government they elect? Are you saying that every German who wasn’t named Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, etc was innocent?
most people critical of Israel are also anti Hamas and we agree that they are terrorists
Really? Are you? Maybe you personally are that way, but the vast majority of tankies and other crazies on here certainly aren’t. There’s no strawman to be had here. The majority of Palestinians support Hamas. It’s a fucking statistic.
Oh sure one sec…let’s see…bomb a refugee camp, a hospital, and ambulances and kill kids and others who did nothing or…take a surgical attack on the people who attacked you? Tough decisions…hmmm…going to go with attack the actual people who attacked you.
Just FYI, your complete fucking ignorance is showing.
Or are you saying it’s okay for Israel to launch “surgical strikes” against hospitals, schools, and camps with a Hamas presence? I would have thought you’d be against that.
There’s a reason why I call most leftists I interact with on here anti-Semites. They cannot stand it when you call out anyone who’s not Israel that’s done worse.
Even completely ignoring all the history of the region and how the current State of Israel came to be and only focusing on the present in a vacuum, there is still is a glaring contradiction that I have never heard any sort of coherent answer from people who support Israel’s actions: If you truly believe that simply having a negative opinion of Israel’s actions against Palestinians is antisemitic (or simply being a Palestinian that’s still alive is antisemitic according to too many people), then surely it also holds that both Israel’s outright killing of Palestinians and their ongoing apartheid policies preventing Palestinians from existing in the same areas as Israelis is anti-Arab right? Is being anti-Arabic somehow preferable to being antisemitic? Are Arabs not human beings and do they not deserve the same rights and protection as Jews or literally any other human? What makes it okay for Israel to be anti-Arab then?
One of the half baked arguments I have heard is that Israel is “justified” in being anti-Arabic because “it’s in self defense against Palestinians that want to kill them,” but if you make that assertion, then what makes the other side different? Israel is certainly not just attacking the Hamas and there have been more Palestinian civilian victims than Israeli civilian victims so wouldn’t you saying that also automatically imply the inverse and equally justify the Hamas’ actions against Israel? You can’t attack someone while claiming self defense and then cry foul when they defend themselves against you.
Okay, so I have a few points: If some people say that disagreeing with Israel is anti-semitic, they are just wrong. I myself know a lot of Jews who disagree with the current Netanyahu’s government’s actions (so do I) and they are definitely not anti-semitic. It’s definitely valid to point out Israel’s mistakes in this conflict (e.g. occupation of the west bank, radical opinions of some politicians such as throwing a nuclear bomb onto gaza, etc.). No one can call you anti-semitic for that. However, if you support Hamas in their mission and call for the removal of the state of Israel, it can be considered anti-semitic because you practically ask for killing millions of Jews.
You have also mentioned that Israel is anti-Arab which is not true. Currently fifth of the population is Arab and they have exactly the same rights as Jews. Also I don’t understand how Israel is apartheid. The people who are supposed to be oppressed are literally under a different authority. That’s like saying France is apartheid because Germans do not have the same rights in France as French people have
I see they have that little Egypt strip there … I do take your point and it’s a good one but I still struggle with the Germany france comparison. Maybe like luxembourg and Germany or France… or Avignon with the double pope – How about that?
Or the Basques would be good if they ever had their own real country
laws? it’s internationally illegal, but that doesn’t matter, hence all the UN resolutions that Israel ignores.
incidents? sure, here’s an article from a few years ago of an incident that got somewhat prominent outside the region, it’s just that no one cares if the IDF blows a few brown fishermen out of the water (hell outside the English publication of a few prominent Hebrew papers people wouldn’t even know that Netanyahu was aiding Hamas to stay in power)
This is a complete nonsense. If Israel wanted, they could have starved Gaza far sooner and would not play with them for 80 years.
In addition, we can theoretically consider Israel the biggest Gaza supporters because they give them electricity and water for free. No Arab country does that.
it really isn’t, the only thing keeping them from going full on holocaust on the Palestinians is international pressure, because Israel exists at “the pleasure of the west” in general.
Ironically, the only reason Gaza doesn’t have their own Power and Water production is because Israel bombed it a long time ago and refuses to let it be fixed, because the bibi government uses it as a tool to influence Gaza, hilariously to support Hamas.
Regarding the power plant: it has 4 operational units but ran out of fuel as it was diesel powered. I have seen some information that Hamas has diesel as one of its resources but that was only reported by an Israeli media, hence it cannot be trusted.
It is debatable whether they would go “full holocaust” on Gaza without international pressure. However, I personally know some people who would support that and also certain right-wing parties want a complete siege of Palestine. I strongly disagree with this rhetoric. On the other hand, some political subjects support negotiations.
you do realize that the current ruling powers in Israel consist in part of literally anti-Muslim terrorists who have dedicated their lives, and publically call for the historic Jewish homeland (from the Euphrates to the Red Sea) to be cleansed of Muslims and retaken for the Jewish people, they literally mirror Nazi rhetoric, (and ironically call holocaust survivors that disagreed with them antisemites), and the other calling for a full on apartheid state and for territorial expansion via annexation.
As for the idea that the Gaza power plant would just be out of fuel, that contradicts any number of local reports from various NGOs and even the UN, and judging by the Israeli track record in the area i will believe the other sources over them.
Israel is a democratic country (check democracy index) and there is a freedom of religion. 18.7% of population are Muslim, so Israel is definitely not against Islam. The comparison to Nazis is literally funny because Arab people (usually Muslims) have exactly the same rights as Jews. In addition, Israel is not an apartheid state. Some argue they perform apartheid on the Palestinian people but those under a different administration. By this logic, every state can be considered apartheid because citizens of that state have in that state more rights than non-citizens. That’s standard.
Mind showing any sources about the power plant? Wikipedia was reporting that all 4 generators were fine.
Some argue they perform apartheid on the Palestinian people but those under a different administration. By this logic, every state can be considered apartheid because citizens of that state have in that state more rights than non-citizens. That’s standard.
most of the world isn’t the sovereign in control of the other countries, nor do Americans just annex towns in Canada every few weeks
Democracy index? which one? the economist? they don’t care much about things like civil rights, as long as the majority of the population can vote, the government can enact + Radicalize legislation, if you actually looked up the methodology of the ranking (remember other nations in the same ranking as Israel still have legislation making being LGBT+ illegal and other such things)
18.7% of the population? that’s less than the Armenians in Turkey.
and lastly, on the apartheid regime; if multiple Israeli human rights NGOs, the UN-HRC, Amnesty int., HRW, and even the Israeli supreme court have said it is an apartheid regime then maybe it is.
18.7% of the population is a considerable amount of people. In the country I live in, the biggest “minority” is less than 7%.
The apartheid is debatable though. I know that European commission stated that Israel is not an apartheid regime. Israeli judiciary also does not say that the country is apartheid.
However, the Supreme court of Israel and UN decided that Israel illegally occupies land in the west bank, so there cannot be an excuse/counter argument for that.
may I ask what you mean by LGBTI+ rights? If I remember correctly, Israel is quite good in these terms (Not as good as some eňEuropean countries but far better than rest of middle east)
The point of the LGBT+ thing was pointing out that the definition of “democracy” the Economist uses, doesn’t include civil rights (tho if you want to start comparing the treatment of LGBTQ+ people Israel isn’t even the best in the M.east).
as for 18.7% being a considerable amount of people, thus can’t be apartheid state is a massive nothingburger seeing as we have seen genocides happen to larger groups.
and in context of the European commission, I recommend you read their actual answer, because the “Israel is not an apartheid state” bit is politics, read the rest, and it’s basically admitting that the Israeli state clearly disregards the civil rights of group/s
What other middle eastern country is better in terms of LGBTI rights than Israel? Lgbti rights are not ideal there but they allow registered partnerships and even recognize same sex marriages performed elsewhere. In addition, Tel Aviv is one of the most gay-friendly cities in the world with some additional rights for LGBTI people.
I agree that we have seen genocide happening to larger groups than 18.7% but those 18.7% in arabs are nowhere near genocide. Arabs with Israeli citizenship have the same rights as Jews living there. They are members of the supreme court, they have a political party, etc.
I have checked the article and I agree it points out some mistakes made by Israel towards Palestinians but those actions cannot be considered apartheid. Yes, they illegally build settlements in an undisputed land but that’s not apartheid.
You seem to misunderstand the Israeli occupation of Palestine. The West Bank is very much governed by the IDF and they treat Jews differently than non Jews. The IDF can legally detain Palestinians for up to 6 months without charges while being required to defend settlers who attack and harass Palestinians. They undermine the Palestinian Authority and override their supposed authority all the time. Gaza is more of an open air prison as people can’t leave. The reason Israel doesn’t occupy Gaza is because they did in the past and it was uneconomical.
There are a ton of people who basically paint all pro Palestinian groups and protests as antisemitic, from the ADL to Israeli lobbyists. These people are totally unreasonable and have a large amount of influence. “Opposing Israel’s actions = anti-Zionism = antisemitism,” isn’t the fringe narrative it should be. At the same time, there are braindead so called, “leftists,” who can’t comprehend that both Netanyahu’s government and Hamas are genocidal theocratic fascists. They’re also frustrating as fuck and cannot be tolerated. Far too many have lost their minds and morals over this conflict.
First of all you say that the West Bank is governed mostly by the IDF. To be more accurate, the West Bank is divided into 3 zones while some are under total Palestinian control, others under joint control and some and controlled solely by IDF. There are exactly zero Jews living in the areas which belong solely to Palestinian authorities. Israel respects that. What they do not respect is the status of undisputed territories where they continue to make settlements. These are, under the international law, considered illegal and the decisions were also supported by the Supreme Court of Israel. About the Palestinian authority: most of citizens in the West Bank support Hamas over the leadership of Mahmud Abbas. There is literally no authority to undermine.
I do not think Gaza is an open air prison formed by Israel. Israel is not even able to lock it completely out because of the sea and the border with Egypt. So I would rather call it a land with which no one wants to have anything in common. If “Gazans” were peace-loving people hated by Israel for no reason, they would at least have a normal relationship with Egypt, which, as we know, is not the case. In addition, the genocide by Israel somehow does not work because the population of Palestinians has been rising throughout the whole time of the conflict.
With the rest, I pretty much agree. Criticism of Israel is not anti-Zionism and definitely not anti-semitism. I would also like to see Netanyahu out. He tried to weaken the judiciary, he formed a government with radicals who are “proud homophobes” and who believe that “Israel should use a nuclear bomb in Gaza” and didn’t do much in order to resolve the land in the West Bank, but rather built illegal settlements. Apart from that, the intelligence failure was quite massive. Hamas, on the other hand, attacked Israel with one goal in mind: killing and torturing as many Jews as possible (simply because they are Jews) and radicalized the population so much that even Arab countries (such as Egypt) would rather sacrifice millions of lives for the sake of not accepting Palestinians as refugees.
The checkpoints and control of roads in the West Bank prevent Palestinians from moving freely. The PLO “controls,” The West Bank, but when an occupying nation controls many of the roads, preventing usage of certain roads by the citizens of your territory and only letting their own citizens travel on them, how can they be considered independent? They lack basic sovereignty, with their citizens not being able to move within their own country due to an occupying force. You claim there is no authority to undermine, but even if correct, the reason for a lack of authority is squarely on Israel.
The idea that Palestine’s population has grown for the entire conflict falls apart when you look at the late 1940s, where over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled from their homes by Zionist militias. It was almost half of the Arab population. In just a few years, zealous Zionists used violence to flip the demographics of the region to favor Jews over non Jews. This wasn’t genocide, but was undeniably ethnic cleansing. It’s an important piece of context that Israeli fascists have tried to keep out of the conversation, focusing on population trends after their ethnic cleansing and assuming people won’t investigate.
I might describe Isreal’s practical intentions as genocidal because that’s the only way their strategy can make Israeli citizens safe like they claim to be working towards. Bombing Gaza does not make Israel safer unless they decimate the population enough to exert authoritarian control over the survivors. If they wanted Palestinians to live alongside Israel peacefully, they would ensure that there is a strong Palestinian state with little motivation to invade. If they got rid of settlements in the West Bank, funded a Palestinians state and reinvigorated their economy, and mutually agreed to harshly police hate crimes in both states, then they could coexist. The only ways to defeat Hamas in Gaza through force would be occupation of Gaza, or the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza.
The reason they don’t go all out on purging Gaza probably has to do with Arabs outside Palestine who might attack if it happens too quickly. Israel has nukes, but they still want to avoid all out war. The long term goal of this subset of Zionists, genocidal Zionists, is to take over all of Palestine eventually, something that would likely be genocidal. Some Zionists want two states, but the Zionists in charge want a single Jewish theocracy.
I want peace and safety for Jewish people and Palestinians, something that will not happen without a true two state solution, or a single secular state. The long term plan of the state of Israel is ethnic cleansing at best, and genocide at worst.
The situation with Egypt requires contextual knowledge of their history with the Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas is a breakaway from the MB, and still ally with them. Egypt’s more secular military overthrew the Muslim Brotherhood’s democratic government, and the current government doesn’t want them to rise again. Letting in Palestinians would let in Hamas members, who might create problems for the government. It’s not the peacefulness of Palestinians, but the politics of Egypt that prevent them from accepting refugees. If Hamas was exactly the same but would oppose MB forces in Egypt, Egypt would probably let in some refugees. However, it’s hard for a nation with Egypt’s problems, to deal with so many refugees by themselves anyways. Israel, the ones creating refugees out of Palestinians, can’t expect their neighbors to happily foot the bill of caring for people who’s property they stole and destroyed.
Can you elaborate on what genocide means here? I usually think that means to wipe out some race but in this case they aren’t targeting based on race but on who wants to displace or kill them.
Isn’t it the case that Palestine could have sovereignty if they made a deal with Israel to split up the territory? My understanding was that they refuse to make deal as they demand to have have all the land and to expel the Jews.
You mention that Israel is genocidal, maybe some of them are in secret, but mainly they are interested in taking control of the land and stopping their enemies.
You say that Israel displaced Arabs but I thought many of them just left because they oppose Israel not because the Israelis actually told them to leave? Many Arabs stayed in place and they were not kicked out if they were willing to live in peace is Israel.
Israel and many others send aid all the time to Palestine in the hopes of bringing peace but it’s not been effective in making them seek peace.
Palestinians in general still think they should hold out for getting the whole region back, and more or less support Hamas because they have been taught to think this way.
I find it interesting that there are few complaints about how a huge part of Palestine was turned into “the kingdom of Jordan” by the British yet Palestinians did not have a violent rebellion against that decision and Palestine is not demanding that land back today.
Palestine nationals did try to work towards a deal. Zionists did kick Arabs out of their homes, 80% of them in what shortly became Israel. Oh, but they’re not genocidal, they just want to kick the Arabs off their land and make them not exist as a collective people there. Why couldn’t I see that? Those pesky Palestinians need only accept being a minority in a Jewish theocracy, then they don’t have to leave their homes.
Jordan was not unilaterally turned into the kingdom of Jordan by the British, a Transjordan independence movement wanted to prevent immigration of Jews to Mandatory Palestine, but barely managed to unite the land in present day Jordan. Jordan wasn’t a fully independent nation at this time and Mandatory Palestine certainly wasn’t. They didn’t have a choice, and the king would have tried to unite Palestine with Jordan if the British didn’t have plans for it.
You seem to think that a common people with a shared culture will automatically unite as a nation, but organizing a state isn’t easy. Independent tribes need to be convinced of the usefulness of a larger collective in order to form a state. They give up autonomy in creating a nation, so the tradeoff must seem worthwhile. If not for the external threat of Europeans trying to carve up and control peoples in the Middle East for selfish interests, they would prefer to be tribal and borderless. This isn’t because they’re uncivilized or savages, but because regional autonomy is a cool vibe. It’s not true anarchy, but it’s a less centralized mode than what Europeans thought was normal and civilized.
This is why European empires carving up the Middle East and demanding they form nations is so fucked up. They made arbitrary borders, often intentionally drawn to perpetuate and create conflict, because they think centralized governments are just the norm. Centralized governments can be useful, but they’re not without drawbacks and aren’t always superior. They need to come about naturally out of shared interests and the desire to accomplish what can’t be done singularly. This is why the UK leaving the EU was so ironic and hypocritical: they wanted to be more than equal partners because they’re so used to dominating imperially. When you’re used privilege, equality feels like oppression.
Anyhow, your understanding is shallow and ignorant. I’m not in the mood to give you a college course in social science and history that you might not even listen to. The best I can do is advise you to ensure your arguments are supported by evidence. Try to use evidence to inform your opinion and not to cherrypick facts that support your preconceived worldview. It’s a struggle to do this and not as easy or convenient, but it is what people should try to do.
Israel is committing a genocide. - At best, one would have to concede they’re killing thousands of children to get at a handful of Hamas members. If you call it antisemitic to point that out, you’re saying genocidal kid-killing is inherent to Israelis - which is about as antisemitic as it gets, and a damn good justification for wiping Israel off the map. It’s a moronic,monstrous line to push.
(Not disagreeing, but offering a bit more insight)
To be fair, what the IDF is doing is hard. Fighting irregular forces in dense urban environments is hard, especially with their opponents having hundreds of underground bunkers and using civilian shields. Even if they were operating under best practice, there would be a lot of civilian casualties.
However, they aren’t operating under best practices. I don’t know how the average IDF soldier feels, but the top brass at best doesn’t give a shit if they kill a hundred palestinian civilians per one Hamas member; At worst, they see this conflict as an excuse to actively target them.
Between the genocidal rhetoric of Israeli leadership, the fact that Israel propped up Hamas over the PLO, and the fact that the casualty stats are squarely in line with the broader civilian population, what makes you think any attempt is being made to avoid civilian casualties?
Hamas and combatatant-aged men aren’t over-represented in the casualty stats - this is just an indiscriminate genocide they’ve been clearly signalling they intend to commit.
Fun fact; something like 60 percent of all Israelis are Mizrahi Jews from across the Middle East. Both in terms of their physical appearance and their material culture they have far more in common with Arabs than they do with white Europeans. Calling them “white” really doesn’t hold much water.
It is interesting how split opinions are here. Young democrats are more pro Palestine, older Dems are more pro Israel (although a little harsh). Republicans think Israel is doing the right thing.
Issue is many young people don’t realize it’s mostly Hamas ruining people’s lives and many older ones cannot admit mistakes made by Israel.
Or people are just completely on one side (which is imho impossible). Either they support Israel or they support Palestine and want Israel out. You know how few balanced opinions I have seen?
Exactly, and the few being balanced part is what drives us crazy. My wife is Jewish and has family in Israel. While we hate Hamas we dislike the orthodox Jews almost as much. Even with everything going on we care for the Palestinians that are mixed up with this and acknowledge both sides are truly bad in this. The enemy is Hamas not Palestine. Israel the nation isn't the problem, it's Netanyahu and company. None of that matters however as she has been spit on and treated like shit ever since this started just for her ethnicity.
There is so much information warfare going on and I am sure of it. As soon as that first hospital blew up, media immediately blamed the IDF before any evidence was out. Then all evidence pointed to Hamas being responsible and it barely got covered. Hamas is using hospitals as hiding spots at the very least. Meanwhile they do their best to heard and trap civilians into the crossfire while the IDF steamrolls. The whole situation is just fucked.
It is just so aggravating how everyone treats this as a black and white struggle like Ukraine when it is anything but. It's two shitheads fighting; with Israel at least having dissenters while Palestine is run like a dictatorship. That's the only simple part.
Whats black and white? This conflict? Not at all mate. First of all, IDF is not committing genocide. If they were, the number of Palestinians would not double in last 70-ish years. Killing unintentionally around 10k civilians (less than 0.5% of the Gaza’s population) because terrorists were hiding between them and Hamas built no shelters is not a genocide. I do not approve killing civilians but calling this genocide is very inaccurate. Secondly, Hamas is a terrorist organization which wants to eliminate Israel (plus 12 million Jews) and they have to be removed as soon as possible.
However, Israel has also been illegally occupying areas of the West Bank despite UN’s and Israeli supreme court’s decision, so they are not angels either.
Hence why the conflict is anything but black and white.
Young democrats are more pro-dont-commit-war-crimes whatever the history, older dems are disensitized by war-crimes and obsessed with anti-terrorism.
Republicans love the war machine and think that genocide/wiping out the opposing side is the only way to resolve anything.
Biden is trying to put on his best dem face while attempting to also maintain control over nuclear proliferation in the middle east. There’s only 1 party when it comes to global control, and this exposed it clearly. Democratic or Republican presidents, they all answer to the Generals in the end.
Looks like homey would rather delete their comment than go online and find out that Palestine doesn’t have armed forces (bonus points for finding out why not).
For example by not creating a humanitarian catastrophe for the civilian population of Gaza. By actively restricting humanitarian aid, food, electricity, water. By setting up field hospitals and making sure that everyone who needs a medical treatment can receive one. By actively trying to limit the civilian casualties and adhering to international laws of war.
Or is this too much to ask from a state that pretends to be democratic and lawful?
I’ve seen examples Israel letting in humanitarian aid
Oh wow, how generous of them. Yesterday apparently they allowed 50 trucks carrying humanitarian aid, for 2.4M people. Please do the math and tell me do you seriously think this is enough?!? Those trucks are carrying not only food, but medical supplies and water. That’s extremely insufficient and is borderline cynical
but of course they have a concern about supplies getting in that would aid another attack.
Oh yes, humanitarian aid in the form of food, medical supplies and water can make a great bomb, that will obliterate half of Israel. Do you realise how your argument sounds?
Even fuel, never heard diesel to be used for any bomb or explosive. Or electricity. But please correct me if I am wrong.
More attention should be focused on why Egypt also has a blockade against Palestine in most respects too.
You are also missing the simple fact that actually Israel is also controlling the Rafah crossing, they were bombing it on a couple of occasions. Plus by saying this you are openly admitting that Israel is actively trying to land grab Gaza and expel all Gazans to Egypt. And a question for you with increased difficulty, how easy do you think for a developing country would be to assimilate 2.4M immigrants?
Aren’t my points valid though? What’s your counter argument? Yes, I was being sarcastic to emphasize my point but this doesn’t make it less valuable as an input.
I did suggest Egypt open their border for humanitarian aid, it’s the most obvious route. Food and water can go through. Medical trucks can go in.
You are once again missing the simple fact that it’s not Egypt who is slowing down the humanitarian aid but the Israeli personnel, who are also reviewing what goes inside Gaza. So the state of Israel is directly responsible for the current situation. They can alleviate the suffering of Palestinians but it seems they are unwilling to do so, hence the collective punishment narrative. And for the record they started allowing aid only after substantial international pressure on them. How humane is this?
There are many concerned about humanitarian supplies being repurposed into weapons, which can actually happen.
Please give me an example of what humanitarian aid can be weaponized? Plus if they wanted they could just ban particular items instead.
Egypt can supply them with electricity like Israel was before.
You do realise that It is not possible to build the infrastructure to transfer electricity to another country which is also an active war zone overnight, right?
And perhaps some food for thought, try to put yourself in the shoes of the regular Palestinian, even before this conflict. How would you feel, seriously, because I am pretty sure you WILL NOT be happy or content. And here you have your answer why all this is happening, you can’t treat human beings as human trash and expect them to tolerate it and accept it. Perhaps if they were treated with due respect and their civilian rights weren’t so restricted there wouldn’t be Hamas or 7.10.2023.
You really need to understand that there is a waaay bigger political spectrum than “Democrats” and “Republicans”. Especially when it comes to foreign policy.
Take off your offended pants and reread what they wrote. If that’s condescension then you’re too sensitive for the internet and should probably log off.
Lemmy seems obsessed with needless disputes and pedantic “gotcha” moments. (Your comment exemplifies my point beautifully, by the way.) It is condensing to read my comment in the uncharitable light of arguing the US political spectrum applies abroad. But instead of trying to discern what the other person means, a lot of you would rather find a disagreement where there is none.
You’re both being condescending and can happily fuck off.
In all seriousness my comment was meant to come off as condescending to highlight the difference. If you want to be mad at the world go right ahead. You’re the one with the shitty outlook, ya fucking baby. 👶🏻
Not American, but there is a shift lately that makes me feel a little hopeful. Like for the first time my parents and in-laws are starting to see how not all criticism of Israel has to be antisemitic.
Yes that does mean we’re having to be more vigilant for actual antisemitism (especially online), but it’s still progress of a sort.
The government sure, but when saying “Israel leans right” you mean all of israel. The population tends right in their political leanings. Currently, fascists hold power, but Israel as a whole is not fascist.
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