Instance getting too centralized?

EDIT: Thank you all for your answers, now I'm reassured this platform is in good hands and we will always have the freedom to switch. Let's make this place vibrant, diverse and decentralized, like the old web used to be.

I feel like this instance is getting too big and all the content is being centralized here. Am I right or there are other instances thriving too?

Wherever I go I keep seeing lots of lemmy.world users and communities and kind of feel worried about centralization.

Liontigerwings,

C'mon. No single instance has as many users as any of the top 20 sub reddits I bet. Spreading out over 5 main instances is fine. The important thing is if one instance shits the bed, you have options. If the community isn't served properly they can easily jump to a new instance.

314xel, (edited )
@314xel@lemmy.world avatar

You can check stats on instances here.

lemmy.world is #2 by total user count (lemmy.ml being the 1st), but #1 by active users.

And judging by the Local posts and Local comments count, it seems that .world users interact more with communities in other instances than the local ones, unlike the other top instances.

So I would dare to say that your concern over content being monopolized by .world (based on subscribers to local communities) isn't founded - high number of users, but they tend to subscribe and interact more with communities on other instances.

This is of course anecdotal (same as your example), but I tend to see the opposite in my feed - few posts from communities on .world. It's very subjective based on what you subscribed to.

The high number of users on .world is because it still has open registration (server was recently upgraded beyond current capacity).

pilvlp,

Where's kbin on that list?

TheYang,

it's not lemmy, just also on the fediverse, so it's not on there.

but it's at over 30k now, soooo...

ElSapo,

Kbin is another software altogether from lemmy, so they are not counted.

Otome-chan,
Otome-chan avatar

we're not a lemmy instance so we wouldn't be on there at all.

314xel, (edited )
@314xel@lemmy.world avatar

Good question, didn't notice that.

Edit: I briefly forgot that kbin uses a different source code / platform than Lemmy, even though still uses federation and ActivityPub and counts as part of the fediverse. So it's counted separately here.

Same like Mastodon, Matrix etc which are different platforms that have the ability to federate with some of the other fediverse platforms like Lemmy.

And also just now I learned that kbin has multiple instances, so it's like its own thing, not just a Lemmy-federated instance.

!deleted107246,

deleted_by_author

    •
    yankeebobo,
    @yankeebobo@mastodon.world avatar

    @Dav @hydra @314xel @pilvlp just like joining a gym but not using it

    314xel,
    @314xel@lemmy.world avatar

    Interestingly, Active users ~= Total users on kbin.social. But I have no idea how that Active number is computed for either lemmy or kbin on that site.

    atypicaloddity,

    kbin.social is really new, so it doesn't surprise me that active ≈ total.

    Otome-chan,
    Otome-chan avatar

    we're literally a month old, so MAU and total users should be pretty much identical right now lol

    sokolobo,

    Or joining one gym and going to another gym of the same franchise. Just like I'm doing now, hello from kbin :)

    I've seen a lot of kbin users interacting with the rest of the fediverse, I think because it has a better sorting, it's easier for us to find new threads on other instances.

    randomperson,
    randomperson avatar

    It has better... everything. Like seriously better.

    Parallax,
    Parallax avatar

    It makes me so fucking happy that I'm somewhere in that graph.

    passport,
    @passport@sh.itjust.works avatar

    The high number of users on .world is because it still has open registration

    I wonder if accounts on certain servers will be "prestigious" one day lol

    lotanis,

    I think it's ok, as long as federation still works and migration is sorted out. The problem with centralisation is the control that can give. If there's a mechanism to move a community or user to a new instance without too much disruption, then the users maintain control and have recourse if the operators do something unpopular.

    Mastodon has a pretty good system that automatically moves people's follows to your new account if you move. We need something like that for Lemmy.

    Denaton, (edited )

    programming.dev is thriving but we are also a niche, lots of good communities for developers.

    MyOpinion,

    A little bit early to be worried about this. This server is very new.

    hydra,
    @hydra@lemmy.world avatar

    Maybe indeed it's a bit too early c:

    Let's hope for a future where the Internet is the vibrant and diverse place it used to be before the big tech walled gardens.

    MushuChupacabra,
    @MushuChupacabra@lemmy.world avatar

    I'm an ex-redditor, so I'm still getting my lemmy legs. I don't know how things will play out a decade from now, but I'm enjoying being here during this little sliver of social media history.

    I'm kinda digging the order and the volatility. I very much enjoy how easy it is to simply up and leave one instance for another, without experiencing an abrupt shift of everything from how stuff works, to basic etiquette.

    It just seems like a very difficult place to power trip.

    halo5,

    Well, from what I've seen and read, this is mostly due to the fact that @ruud (am I doing that right?) has put in the time, effort and, most importantly, the money into providing server performance necessary for lemmy.world to survive and handle the load. I wouldn't worry about centralization with Lemmy, simply due to the fact that, should @ruud all of a sudden decide to turn into a first-rate a$$hole (definitely don't see that happening from @ruud's reputation!), the exact same software works on other servers which could supplant lemmy.world should the need arise. Long story short, Lemmy is tyrant-proof, IMO.

    On a related note, I would encourage those who appreciate lemmy.world to visit the homepage and contribute when they can, since the associated costs are not insignificant. Who knows what may happen 5-10 years from now; Lemmy could become the dominant platform. I have no problem with that...

    MiddleWeigh,
    @MiddleWeigh@lemmy.world avatar

    Do you know where i can donate to @ruud efforts?

    Qvest,

    He has an opencollective and a patreon

    MiddleWeigh,
    @MiddleWeigh@lemmy.world avatar

    Thank you!!!! Exactly what I was after.

    kring,

    the exact same software works on other servers which could supplant lemmy.world should the need arise.

    But all the communities on lemmy.world would be lost. I was hoping that communities could be forked and run on a different server if needs arise, like we can do with Git repositories.

    Qvest,

    This is kinda already happening. Searching for tech gives me more than 3 communities that are about the same thing, all in different instances

    kring,

    I'm more thinking about old threads. I used to search in subreddits because some information is still useful after years (guides for games, comments on movies/series, ...). The information, e.g. this thread, will only be in one instance. Even if there's a similar community in another instance, this thread will die with lenny.world.

    bill_1992,

    I've posted about this before and I think a lot of people disagree, but some centralization is good. There has to be a no-thought option for when people want to join Lemmy. After they learn more about federation, they can move on to another instance.

    The reason why kbin grew so fast is because for a lot of people, Kbin = kbin.social (See how "kbin" links to kbin.social on: list of alternatives on Reddit)

    I believe this also explains Beehaw's growth despite their onerous rules. When someone recommends Beehaw, they don't need to think about which instance of Beehaw they want to join, they just go to Beehaw.

    A lot of people are dogmatic about federation, but I quite frankly think that if you are going to die on the hill, don't complain when you die.

    Odo,

    Isn't beehaw just another Lemmy instance?

    overzeetop,
    @overzeetop@lemmy.world avatar

    After they learn more about federation, they can move on to another instance.

    Right...but, what if they've created a community (or communities) here on lemmy.world and decide they'd prefer to move on. The communities aren't portable. And I'm not sure how identically named communities co-exist across instances. They clearly could be separate, but co-mingling by identical names...would it cause problems? And by that I mean it would, I just don't know how it gets solved. Also, if I start a community and then abandon that instance, does the community automatically die unless there are other mods?

    UnicornKitty,
    @UnicornKitty@lemmy.world avatar

    Wouldn't each instance have its own identifier? Like Bengals@lemmy vs Bengals@beehaw

    I'm completely new to this concept so I might be thinking the wrong way.

    overzeetop,
    @overzeetop@lemmy.world avatar

    It does. I’m thinking about new people (likely far less savvy, on average) who are confused by the multiple instances as well as casual users who may think their c/Chicago is pretty small when, in reality, three other instances which have c/Chicago communities were created after they signed up are getting the bill of the traffic. Unless you regularly go search or someone happens to tip you off that there a community on another instance you’d have no idea you were missing most of the action.

    It’s great that we have a bunch of technically savvy people quickly building new communities, but the fractured nature will prevent or discourage non-tech-savvy content from ever taking root. Put another way, Corporate control of the internet has dumbed down the average interface and user friction. Otherwise we’ll always just be a bunch of tech nerds - which is cool for things like selfhosted, but probably not as useful for !crocheting or !musicaltheater where the is less overlap with IT personnel. The sad fact is that reddit is easier in this way, and letting them keep/poach the average user is to the detriment of a diverse voice here.

    /soapbox 😉

    UnicornKitty,
    @UnicornKitty@lemmy.world avatar

    I didn't consider that because I don't search that way. I didn't search for specific communities. Per your example I would have searched "Chi" then slowly added letters until what I wanted came up. Chicago is proper so that doesn't really work. But there are several ways to look for autism related stuff, because it could be autism or autistic or whatever and if you just put in "auti" you get all of it. And since I saw that there can be more than one with the same community name, I know in the next few weeks I will have to keep searching for new ones.

    I would rather use my energy to do that than go back to reddit. Not everybody would feel what they did was bad enough to warrant expending that energy. Okay that's not great for diversity but once things settle down it will be pretty close to that easy.

    ewe,

    I think community portability will need to be built into the platform. Without that, we are one bad server owner from losing entire communities. It will inevitably happen at done point.

    Otome-chan,
    Otome-chan avatar

    we're doing fine here on kbin, a little too much growth tbh. lemmy.world is pretty active but it's not the only active instance :)

    hydra,
    @hydra@lemmy.world avatar

    That's great. Love to see Kbin thriving but I wish more instances came online. I know that at least fedia.io exists

    Otome-chan,
    Otome-chan avatar

    give it time. kbin is literally just a month old and most users joined in the past couple of days.

    ZephyrXero,

    I think we'll see a bunch of the top communities gravitate towards a few instances, but the userbase will spread out over time. Right now people are going to the biggest, b/c they just want to get on and try it out. But over time as people learn how to work with this new system they'll venture out to others. I could see a lot of people eventually hosting their own instance just for their one user, but have no communities of its own.

    But for communities, finding an instance that has the right rules and plugins available will lead them to looking for trusted servers to moderate them from. As long as what Beehaw's doing doesn't become a trend, it should be fine

    CannaVet,

    The Beehaw thing pissed me off because it was a systemic version of the post I've been so fuckin tired of - "Why isn't this Reddit and when will it become Reddit?"

    Really wish the people who want a 1 for 1 walled garden Reddit clone would just Go to one of the 1 for 1 walled garden Reddit clones instead of users demanding devs make it Reddit and server owners defederating from everyone in an attempt to be the winning walled off lemmy server instead of using it as intended.

    jcb2016_,

    @CannaVet @ZephyrXero Admins need to make it clear that this is a reddit alternative. it's not reddit. They need to hurry up because June 30th The next wave of the reddit migration will come over and overload everything. Admins need to put it in the sidebar when users first join

    hydra,
    @hydra@lemmy.world avatar

    Me too, I really hope it doesn't devolve into defederation wars

    Seismos,
    Seismos avatar

    I think people(people includes me, I think the majority of users are new to this stuff) still don't get that unless a certain instance de-federalizes others en masse, you're still gonna be able to access it's content and contribute from your instance.

    Although, in general,I wouldn't be worried. Even if a certain instance is getting big, you are still not subject to the whims of some venture capitalist corp in silicon valley.

    hydra,
    @hydra@lemmy.world avatar

    still don't get that unless a certain instance de-federalizes others en masse, you're still gonna be able to access it's content and contribute from your instance. Sadly it just happened with beehaw.org, one large instance defederating another. That's a pretty big wall.

    Although, in general,I wouldn't be worried. Even if a certain instance is getting big, you are still not subject to the whims of some venture capitalist corp in silicon valley. Sadly corporations love to control everything and always end up giving small startups offers that are too good to refuse and they either take it over or shelf it forever. I really don't want corporate control to return to the web. Reddit swallowed all the forums due to how convenient it was.

    Seismos,
    Seismos avatar

    I'm aware of beehaw defederating. However, you gotta see how it happened. They were completely transparent about why they did it, and that it's not permanent. Once moderation tools start to get added, we'll probably see re-federation.

    corytheboyd,
    corytheboyd avatar

    Decoupled from venture backed tech corporations is all that matters. Close second is actual people creating actual content, which feels like the case! Curious to see how moderation pans out in the long run, but at least it’s in the hands of the community itself.

    Kichae,

    It's definitely not all that matters, but it's probably the most important at this time.

    A wider network is more robust in the long run, but people can always spread out later.

    tdawg,

    I think expecting individuals to solve this is a mistake. There should be something in the UI or in the backend that either automates this or makes it really really obvious that the preference should be to spread out. The problem will become more and more exasperated as/if more mainstream audiences migrate here (mainstream as in non-technical)

    hydra,
    @hydra@lemmy.world avatar

    Once the first moderation bots arrive things will start sorting themselves out

    bumbly,

    There are many other instances. Feel free to join them :)

    JohnDClay,

    I wish we could transfer accounts

    ddnomad,
    @ddnomad@infosec.pub avatar

    To be honest it is to be expected, people will flock to the most active (and consequentially better maintained, at least subjectively) instances.

    This might only change once these big instance become saturated and close signups, though even still I expect to see only a handful of Lemmy / KBin instances staying relevant once the dust is settled, especially with the recent precedents like Beehaw defederating from “too open” instances.

    kresten,

    There's still a world (no pun intended) of difference, between a single company with a single instance that doesn't interface with anything else. And a large instance on a federated network :)

    freebrick,
    freebrick avatar

    Totally agree.

    lenninscjay,

    Yup, I feel like a lot of people complaining of too much centralization don’t fully understand how the federation concept works. Even if a single instance goes down, turns evil, ect - all of the content would have already propagated to all the other instances. It’s not ideal, because those instances would loose sync with each other since the initial instance went dark but we wouldn’t loose the content but commenters can still discuss within their own instance.

    Again, not ideal - but at least the content would be preserved.

    gccalvin,

    So if lemmy.ml subscribed to lemmy.world, and world shut down with no warning, provided you aren't a lemmy.world account, you can still access and make content on the world communities? Has this been tested?

    Otome-chan,
    Otome-chan avatar

    this happened with lemmy.world and beehaw. after the defederation/shutdown, the blocked instance still has the old communities/threads and can interact with them, but they won't be synced out to the rest of the fediverse.

    gccalvin,

    Yeah, I'm trying to figure this out from a high availability standpoint. I guess the next question would be if all the servers are operating on the same out-of-sync server, probably not, as those servers aren't connected together, they are just connected to the now-offline server. I wonder if the server comes back up if it propagates or trys to re-sync. Seems like we would have issues either way, and the best bet is finding an instance with good availability.

    I was kind of hoping that if an instance subscribed to another instance's community, then the originating instance can go down without effecting the community because another instance is now acting as the backup.

    I'm also concerned if Lemmy as an application can support a large user base.

    Otome-chan,
    Otome-chan avatar

    My understanding is that in the activitypub fediverse there's considered a "true" version of a post/thread/etc. This is the one that is hosted on the instance that it was made. For example, the "true" version of beehaw communities is the one on beehaw. So all other instances then ask beehaw for the true version, and beehaw sends it to them. When someone makes a post on a beehaw community, they send that info to beehaw specifically. Then we simply indirectly see each other's comments due to syncing with beehaw.

    When someone then gets blocked by beehaw, such as lemmyworld, lemmyworld still has their copy of the beehaw communities and threads. It's still their copy of it on lemmyworld. However, they can't go ask beehaw for updates, and they can't send their content to beehaw. As a result, no other instance would get lemmyworld's posts on beehaw communities, and lemmyworld will stop seeing new posts on those communities from other instances (other than beehaw).

    There might be something that lets the instance grab the data from another "non-true" version. But I don't know if that's the case. I was told no, but idk.

    I was kind of hoping that if an instance subscribed to another instance's community, then the originating instance can go down without effecting the community because another instance is now acting as the backup.

    My understanding is no. While each instance makes a copy, I think without the originating instance, they end up falling out of sync. There is a way to fix this theoretically (since p2p does it), though I don't think the fediverse is doing this. I think it might work for mastodon posts that you "reshare" though? I'm new to the fediverse so idk the details.

    The way I think of it is more like internet achive copying reddit posts. if reddit dies, IA still has those posts. Yet IA's version can't accept new posts, and if reddit dies they don't get anymore updates.

    gccalvin,

    Thanks for the detailed reply!

    Andonome,

    I don't think anyone can tell where we're going. Mastodon.social was the largest instance by far for some time, then at the deluge, it splintered.

    Part of the reason for Mastodon to fracture is specialization - each instance does something unique. Maybe Lemmy will do the same, maybe not.

    But if we end up with 3 primary instances, it's still decentralized - I think the most useful feature of Lemmy isn't that we're spread out, it's that we could be.

    MeowdyPardner,
    MeowdyPardner avatar

    Yes this, and I could totally see the startrek instance growing into a hub for sci-fi related communities for example. More important than whether we are spread out is that the possibility and capability we have to spread out or migrate instances keeps instances in check by ensuring they don't have leverage or lock-in over the communities. Currently I think the main risk is communities living on 1 instance, but better instance migration tools would mostly mitigate that - imagine if you could migrate a community (which in underlying activitypub terms is very similar to a user account) to a different instance, the same way mastodon accounts can migrate between instances and keep followers.

    hydra,
    @hydra@lemmy.world avatar

    That's the thing, I don't want one instance with too much control over others. That is a gateway to reintroducing corporate corruption into the Fediverse

    Wooster,
    @Wooster@startrek.website avatar

    Yeah, like how Spotify and the like are trying to take over Podcasts, which were designed to be open.

    hydra,
    @hydra@lemmy.world avatar

    Heh, never been into Star Trek but I love how you guys have a Lemmy instance themed around it. Also Spotify was born as a peer to peer network and it still became what we have today. So I'm kinda cautious with that.

    Wooster,
    @Wooster@startrek.website avatar

    TBH, I think the Startrek Community has the right idea.

    I believe Lemmy instances should treat themselves like ye olde message boards. Have a specific interest and accommodate it. So a Star Wars instance, a Marvel Instance, a DIY instance etc… They should act like message boards, but with the key advantage of linking up with the greater federation.

    Things like geography aren't very conducive to finding content you're interested in.

    coldv,

    Yeah a lot of Lemmy instances right now are mostly based on country or language, so.tnrte is some making use of the decentralisation. I'm hoping an art instance would pop up, then I might migrate.

    Andonome,

    An art instance is a brave move. Lemmy takes up a lot of disk space already, but encouraging images means a lot more disk space. Lemmy also allows multiple images per post.

    anaximander,

    I think this highlights a very good point. It's totally ok for everything to gravitate to a central instance as long as that instance is run in a way that everyone is happy with. The key is the the moment something changes and users aren't happy, the decentralised nature of Lemmy gives those users an exit strategy - a way to replace the bad instance and carry on.

    If a single Lemmy instance becomes the new Reddit and then pulls a move that angers the community the way Reddit has recently, users wouldn't be reduced to protests and hoping that management listen, they could just spin up new instances, mirror the content, and carry on like nothing happened.

    kring,

    The big, bad instance could just disable federation and all communities and user accounts would be locked on that instance.

    There's a ton of other messengers and there's WhatsApp but as long as my family doesn't move from WhatsApp I'm stuck with it.

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