I don’t even think the CLI stuff and so on is an issue. The main reason people don’t use Linux is because it’s simply not pre-installed everywhere as Windows is. The same reason many people use Edge on Windows and don’t install Firefox etc. The average user just uses it as it is and doesn’t tinker around.
Installed Linux on my grandmother’s computer some years ago and she was working with it fine because it was the first time of her using a computer and she learned it that way. For she Linux was was for other people Windows is. She didn’t had any issues installing software via apt etc. after getting it explained and teached a few times.
But a user who just uses a system as it is and who is used to Windows will always dislike Linux. I dislike Windows because I find it complicated in many parts. I used Linux and sometimes MacOS for my whole life besides Windows Vista as a child.
Today’s Linux is not yesterday’s Linux. Now, the platform is incredibly easy to use. There’s no more need to use the command line.
It still blows my mind when people say this. Linux is incredibly NOT user friendly, and you’re constantly sent into the CLI for basic debugging or even just installation of software.
The reliance on CLI is exactly why it will never be more popular, and I think Linux users/developers like it that way.
As for an “official” Linux distribution, that’s a neat idea but simply never going to happen. No one will ever agree to that.
This is an inherent limitation of “free as in freedom” software. The simple option of choice complicates things, and always will.
people are ok with using the command line but they get scared about the potential complexity
God you people are so blind. No one gets “scared”. They just don’t want to dedicate the time to memorize a thousand different commands across a hundred different OSes.
If a gui is equally complex, it would turn away users too
You can put a myriad of setup and administration options into the GUI and most people still have no interest in them. These people just have no interest in using a computer like that. They “just want it to work”. It’s not a CLI v. GUI problem, it’s one of assumed responsibility.
This is an inherent limitation of “free as in freedom” software.
“Free as in freedom” really only refers to developers. The non-developers are beholden to whoever packages and distributes their software for them. We Linux users who aren’t system developers let the “distro maintainers” do the developer work for us. That’s why a distro’s website is full of mission statements and declarations of philosophy–it’s how we decide who to trust.
And it’s the same for the “non-nerds” with system administration. Businesses hire admins to handle their internal software and networks, and at home people let Apple, Microsoft or Google take increasingly more control over their devices so that they aren’t responsible for getting it all working.
These people just have no interest in using a computer like that. They “just want it to work”.
Yes these are the people I’m referring to also. We’re not talking about network engineering or developing software. We’re talking about installing a program or virtually any kind of debugging.
This ignores a bunch of stuff. Also when a lot of non Linux people think Linux the first distro that comes to mind is Ubuntu so there you go, you have your pr distro. Linux in my experience is not easy at all to use. There people that have been on the platform exclusively for 10+ years really don’t understand the modern windows experience. In the 15 years I’ve been using windows I’ve only had to use the command line for rather niche things. Winget is a nice curiosity not a necessity like apt or pacman. In windows shit just works. And 99 percent of the time it doesn’t it’s as easy as right clicking and selecting windows 7 as a compatibility option, and non tech users call you a wizard for knowing how to do that. They get scared when they see a command prompt and I understand it I was like that at one point.
Also everyone is used to using windows. We use it on our schools, we use it on our works, we use it in our libraries. It’s what people know and people are reluctant to swap because why learn something new that’s considerably harder, when what you already have just works. Almost every computer comes with windows pre-installed. For people it’s just plug and play no need to worry about anything. And I belive this is the greatest problem. If there were more devices with Linux out of the box, if school and colleges used Linux instead of windows we would see a dramatic increase in the number of users. But this is going to piss off Microsoft the moment that feel it might injure their bottom line. They want Linux in a leash, a project they can steal from for their own platform, just like github. That’s why they donate so much money to the project and the moment they feel threatened they will stop donations, pay politicians to stop any change and sue people for whatever bullshit reason they come up with
I’m interested by the fact that we have very different experiences with Linux. I switched from Windows to Kubuntu when I was starting out and I found it pretty easy to learn, aside from a few new concepts that were just different. Aside from programs that just didn’t work because they didn’t have Linux versions, I had vastly less problems running Linux than Windows on my PC.
I fully left Windows because things didn’t just work and in my experience they did on Linux.
I don’t find CLI more necessary in Linux than Windows, if I used my package manager GUI then I’d use CLI more in Windows than in Linux
I feel that Linux is better for the average person because their use case is opening a web browser. Viruses and tech support scammers will be less likely to hit them
I disagree. I think it’s mostly a combination of baby duck syndrome and the perceived difficulty of gaming (unless you’re a kid who “needs” to play the flavor of the month over-monetized multiplayer trash)
Baby Duck syndrome is real, and probably the reason I’m using Lubuntu; it superficially resembles the OSs I grew up using (Win9x/OS9/WinXP.) Windows, MacOS, Gnome, and Mate on the other hand relentlessly change their interfaces.
I am going to bring it up a level. I don’t really agree with the surface level analysis of ZDNET.
It’s all a bit janky. The jank is really reduced BUT it is there. There are two flavors: distro jank and app jank. And the reason it’s janky is because the maintainers want it that way.
We should applaud the dedication of companies and people to relentlessly improve. Things are as great as they have ever been. This stuff is hard and Linux does make some things really really simple.
But…go to any distro support site, and you will see the usual things. Why does the secondary monitor not turn on. Why did audio stop working, laptop won’t wake. Etc etc. the solutions are better and better, but unique hw cfgs causing distros jank is one hill to climb.
The other are the apps. Again, I am glad they are there. And they are better than ever.
However, sometimes app workflow causes a great app to feel janky. It’s like “good enough” is all the love they get.
Finally, the open source community can be a removed to work with. Anyone who has ever submitted a patch knows that some projects and tools are … interesting.
It’s like…thank you for your time, but your patch to eliminate jank is rejected because … ego.
Not all open source repos are like this. But more are than you’d think. Different ideas are not always welcome, even if end users would appreciate those very same ideas.
And the repos with a more open mind? No surprise that their results are more usable.
Linux is user-friendly, people are just used to Windows and that scares them to learn about Linux… but KDE and many desktops are much better than any iOS or Windows system… Only Windows XP were pretty good with the UI, just too old right now.
Nope. Not true. Windows has an intuitive and easy to use GUI for everything. Linux depends on CLI for basic functions with commands that aren’t even the same across the various distros. It’s as simple as that.
Nope, Not true, Linux has as GUI to do anything you need, you can install LibreOffice and use Excel easier than on Windows. You don’t even need to download stuff from unknown websites, so that’s even a security feature for someone that don’t really know how to use computers. I know people that only have used Linux, and they are not technical, that says Windows is so bad and not-intuitive, the way you need to manage things, now Windows 10 and Windows 11 has mixed interfaces/UI to do things, full of bloated ads and apps that you don’t even need… I think you don’t see this clearly.
Look, I just ran into another example. SimpleX just released a desktop version. Only they only offer a .deb file. Go to search for how to install this on Fedora. I have to install a whole other program just to install this program. How do I install that program? Straight to the CLI with you.
The Windows version is a .exe so all I had to do is download it and click it and it literally just installs itself.
Are you sure? I thought the “desktop version” of simplex was currently just a cli program for windows too. Have you tried it? I just checked their site and don’t see anything about a non-cli desktop client still.
@blkpws for me i have to download binaries from website or their git repo. Ubuntu store either dont have them or is stuck in an ond version. Recently installed a snap on my colleagues pc which was released in 2018. Thats 5 years old.
@HughJanus windows is not user friendly. You are confusing familiarity with ease of use.
Most are familiar with it since its widely used as the first OS since school. Give it to a lifelong mac user and see how much they struggle. Even ones who are using windows for nearly a decade struggle as soon as they need to use anything more than office, chrome or the file explorer. They fear the control panel nearly as much as they would a terminal and i have to give detailed instruction on what to click
You people keep saying this but it’s simply not true. I used Windows for 20 years and never went into the CLI, which is basically a daily occurrence to complete basic tasks in Linux.
For example, today I went to download the new Simplex app. On Windows, download and run the .exe and it installs itself. Done.
On Linux, they only have a .deb version. So to install that on Fedora I have to install some other program, and the only way to install the program is from the CLI. Tried to do that. The first command I copied and pasted the first command into the CLI and…nothing happened. Not even an error message. Give up.
@HughJanus whos 'you people' here? My point was that just as terminal for linux is scary, many people find even the control panel in windows scary and hard to use. Your personal experience may vary but many issues you point to isnt linux specific.
Assuming you refer to simleX chat, I just grabbed the appimage from their github release page, marked it executable and ran it without a hitch. Took me 5-10 clicks and nearly the same as for Windows. Don't have fedora RN but assume its the same.
“You people” who are delusional and incessantly lie about how “easy” things are.
My point was that just as terminal for linux is scary, many people find even the control panel in windows scary and hard to use.
This is not even remotely comparable. You don’t need the control panel to install software (a basic task), and even if you do need it for something, it’s fairly intuitive. You just click around until you find what you need. Using the CLI requires you to have a working knowledge of a fucking encyclopedia of gibberish commands.
Your personal experience may vary but many issues you point to isnt linux specific.
@HughJanus
Legitimately don't remember the last time I had to use a terminal to install a program in linux, I pretty much just click to install everything using KDE's Discover store, except for things I download off github which often come as appimages which are practically the same as windows executables in terms of ease of use @vaidooryam
@HughJanus completey glances over the solution for your precise problem and yet making strawman arguments of how tough linux is and calling others liars without providing any valid proof. End of our conversation. Stay classy.
If the diversity of alternatives was putting off people, I guess we would still all be driving black Ford cars.
It’s very different considering your car only needs to run the software it comes with from the factory (for now).
If we had a thousand different types of fuel, and 95% of people used fuel 1 or 2, and then 5% used one of a thousand other lesser-know fuels, you’d probably just buy a car that uses 1 or 2, because they’re the easiest and most popular.
I use Windows because I have Windows software I need to use, whether for work or gaming, and I just want that shit to work with zero effort on my part.
“When someone comes to me asking how to get into Linux, they do not need to hear a laundry list of distributions to choose from. When they ask, I don’t want to have to say, something akin to, “You could try Ubuntu, Linux Mint, elementary OS, Zorin OS, or Ubuntu Budgie.””
Ok, so what if I need a car? People will give me a laundry list of car brands to choose from, so I don’t really see that as a valid point. What if I want to buy a pair of shoes? Is there another laundry list? Yes there is.
Just pick something popular, and try it out. If you don’t like it, you’ll have a better idea of the features you want or don’t want in the future.
There’s also literal 15% food. Better not think about the remaining 85%. Just see what google translate says about “ruoka” (in Finnish) or “mat” (in Swedish).
Well, it’s all about expectations and alternatives. People don’t expect to be overloaded with choices before the OS even boots.
Linux is the only OS on any platform where they have (to make) this choice.
Windows, Mac, Android, iPhone, all of these Systems don’t give you a choice between wildly different versions.
Also, the issue extends to after the installation as well. If someone asks me about a Windows issue of medium intensity, I can tell them on the phone how to fix it without having a PC nearby.
Say they ask me how to do something as simple as to install a program from the repository.
Depending on the Linux they are using, they will (or will not) have any one of a few dozen package manager GUIs, which will work wildly different. Even if they don’t use the GUI, they might be using apt, yum, pacman, snap or any other of a few dozen CLI package managers.
And depending on their distro, the package in question can have one of a few dozen different names, or might not be in the repo at all, so that I need to add a ppa or some other form of external repository.
That is a massive issue in everyday use. The only viable thing is for the local family/friend group admin to decide which distro to use and then everyone needs to use that distro or get educated themselves.
For example, I got a lot of experience (~10 years) on Debian-based OSes. Put me on Arch and I have no clue.
The same is not true for e.g. Windows, where I have used every single version extensively (except of Win11).
What’s crazy to me is that Linux was out way in front of this. Put me in front of windows back in the aughts and say ‘go install a program’ and you had to google it, hope you clicked the right download link, install it, hope you didn’t get a virus. Ubuntu you just opened up synaptic and bam, there was a wealth of programs you could just install with a single click. It was mind-blowing, and way easier than what everyone else offered.
That description sounds a lot like fixing a car or trying to operate it.
How do I turn on the windshield wipers? Oh that depends on the brand. You need to find that thing that’s usually on the right, but in some cars it’s on the left. Then you need to press, pull, turn or twist it clockwise or counterclockwise depending on stuff…
How do I replace the left headlight? Could be easy, could be a nightmare. Depends on so many things.
That’s kinda true, but because of that reason you need to take more than 40h of lessions (at least over here) and two tests before you are allowed to operate a car.
When you then buy a car, the salesman takes about an hour to show you everything you need to know about your car, and the car gets delivered with a pretty well-written 500+ page manual that tells you everything you need to know about operating and maintaining it.
The same is not true for operating systems in general and Linux distros specifically. There you get no course at all, nobody that shows you anything and all your resources are Google and toxic online communities where you get called names for asking questions. Makes it much harder for beginners to get into it.
Can we please stop this nonsense already? With Linux on desktop we had two goals:
hardware support
software support
We achieved both goals. Since probably 20 years ago I’ve been using Linux exclusively both at work and at home. All my hardware works, all my software works. Why would I care if Linux gets to 20%, 80% or 100% market share? At this point if some companies or game developers don’t support Linux it’s their loss, I will find an alternative. And if some users is still using Windows it’s also their loss. I feel sorry for them but I stopped encouraging people to use Linux years ago. We’re good, our feature is secured, we don’t need to push for more users anymore.
Get outta my head. 100% agree and could have written your post.
Last time I wanted a gaming laptop (go away gatekeepers, laptop was the right choice for me) I grabbed the first RTX2080 machine that fit my price point from one of my preferred mfr and the build I did just after I got it is still on it today. Have done everything I wanted to with it.
I wanted something smaller and lighter for some other tasks recently, so without much money to spend grabbed a 4ish year old refurbished Lenovo. Touchscreen, stylus, fingerprint reader, everything just works. I did no research beyond a quick google to be sure there weren't immediate results telling me to stay away for Linux for that specific model.
I can't remember the last time I cared what someone else ran on their computer, and at this point I'm annoyed that ZDNet and others think I'm supposed to.
I also use and support Windows at work, and I know how absolute bullshit the idea that everything works flawlessly on Windows is. (Setting aside things like "telemetry", the way you have to force windows to behave as desired, all the other privacy stuff, and all the ads) But, at least I only touch windows when being paid to do so now, so there's that.
You have a very loose definition of "achieved." There are countless hardware devices lacking support. Microsoft Office, the most widely used business productivity tool in the world by far, still has either limited or no support on Linux. Most of the top 20 games on Twitch are either completely unsupported, or require onerous workarounds with poor performance.
It's great that you have achieved what you desire, but you're not representative of everyone.
It's not Linux's job to run software designed for another OS. It's great that it sometimes does (thanks to wine/proton), but as a litmus test it seems a little odd.
I'm with that guy. It's exceptionally easy to run Linux full time these days for anyone who wants to. (Have been doing so since 2007, and it was already easier then than it was for the trailblazers.) It requires almost no thought to ensure the hardware I buy will be fully supported.
I don't care in the least if someone chooses something else to run on their computer, and I'm years past the point where I can even understand why I'm supposed to.
It’s not Linux’s job to run software designed for another OS…as a litmus test it seems a little odd.
LOL it is the job of an operating system (ANY operating system) to be able to run the software you need/want. So in that regard, it’s not “odd” at all.
Go run a Mac binary natively on Windows and let me know how that goes for you.
I don't care whatsoever if someone wants to use Windows for any reason at all. I take exception to this notion that Linux has some responsibility to be compatible with everything in the world while Windows only has to be compatible with Windows though.
Just make your choice and be open about it, don't manufacture requirements that are not universal.
I take exception to this notion that Linux has some responsibility to be compatible with everything in the world.
Well this is a point you’ve fabricated in your imagination because no one thinks that. Windows and Mac will both run whatever software a typical user needs. Linux often does not. That makes it not suitable for most users. It’s as simple as that.
You seem to be laboring under the impression that the success of Linux is tied to the needs of the mythical "average user", in addition to thinking that Linux is somehow responsible for the fact that MS doesn't make Office binaries for it, or Autocad doesn't make binaries for it, etc.
We don't need to agree on either of those, and as I said earlier, I'm years past thinking there's any reason to "convert" you or anyone else.
I find your premise to be flawed, and that's my only objection. However, I don't even care about your flawed premise enough to continue this discussion. You can go have an an OS argument with someone who feels like having one. I'm sure it won't be hard to find.
You seem to be laboring under the impression that the success of Linux is tied to the needs of the mythical “average user”
Nope. You’re once again just fabricating statements that no one is making.
Linux is not a business so “success” can be measured in a myriad of ways. One of which could be the number of people adopting it as their main desktop/laptop OS. For that, it has to be able to run the software most people are using.
This is also the topic of discussion that you seem to be missing entirely.
in addition to thinking that Linux is somehow responsible for the fact that MS doesn’t make Office binaries for it, or Autocad doesn’t make binaries for it, etc.
More things you’re just making up. No one thinks Linux is responsible for those things. If you want to have an argument with yourself, feel free to write it down on a piece of paper or something.
I find your premise to be flawed
You clearly don’t understand what my premise even is, so you couldn’t possibly.
It's not Linux's job to run software designed for another OS.
It doesn’t matter whose fault it is. This isn’t about assigning blame. It’s about acknowledging reality. The bottom line is that Linux is still lacking a lot of software and hardware compatibility which Windows offers.
And thus, if it's not a good fit for you don't use it. Not getting into another long discussion here.
My only grumpiness (targeted primarily at the article from OP) is the idea that the Linux community is supposed to be handwringing about the fact that more people don't use Linux.
I would love more people to use Linux. MS and Apple are both in their own respective ways bringing all the worst aspects of profit-over-all into an area that used to be and should be about wide open spaces, experimentation, and learning. (shakes cane)
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, and I stand by my assertion that for the vast majority of people it's desire, not technical barriers, that prevent them running Linux. AND THAT'S OK, not everyone has to want the same things I want. But I don't feel an obligation to chase those people, and I don't think the Linux community at large should chase those people. The Linux community should be making decisions and providing tools that Linux users want; it seems ludicrous to focus on the wants of people who don't use it at all.
Without taking the time to go through the specific Twitch top list, I'm still very doubtful that the gaming side of things is as dismal as you state, given my very positive experiences gaming with Linux in recent years. Regardless, your litmus test about running software not designed for it remains a metric that is useful for disqualifying Linux if that's what you want to do, but not a useful metric for assessing the success of Linux overall.
Edited to add: I use and support Windows on the desktop and server for my job. I see firsthand the things that suck about Windows, and they are certainly no less than the things that suck about Linux. Living in Windows 8-12 hours a day has not once made me regret my transition at home. Each successive Windows version since I left it in 2007 has served only to reinforce it.
I’m using outlook on Linux (at work), it has a web interface. Office 365 works on Linux. As for games it’s entertainment, you can choose what you play. There are alternatives for pretty much everything (Figma, Gimp. Krita, Blender). Even if Linux gets 50% of the market some companies/game studios still will not support it. We will never get to 100% support so that’s simply unrealistic goal. You can disagree but for me the goal was to make sure that Linux will not get abandoned and die. The danger was in proprietary protocols and standards, in closed source firmware and drivers. Today it may seem obvious but when I was using Linux 20 years ago it was only possible because someone was reverse engineering protocols and drivers. Main communicator on the internet had only windows client, lots of hardware didn’t have Linux drivers, MS was actively trying to kill Linux by promoting closed standards. It was a real possibility that this shit will spread and make Linux on the desktop unusable. Today we’re passed that. We won. If someone is on windows it’s because they want to play specific games or use specific software. Their choice, I don’t care.
@JasSmith linux devs cant force every developer out there to release a linux compatible version of their sw. If MS doesnt want to build a linux version of one of their s/w, the best that can be done is support their custom doc format.
Also your argument is very one sided if you want linux to seemlessly run every type of binary like exe, dmg of completely incompatible OS. Linux does provides a decent translation layer that attempts at it. How many of the other OS can do so?
You incorrectly infer blame. This isn't anyone's fault. I am simply acknowledging the reality of the situation: Linux still lacks compatibility with a lot of hardware, software, and games. That fact is contributing to its low consumer adoption. In just one year, Steam Deck's exceptional adoption thanks to seamless compatibility and user experience should prove this.
@JasSmith steam just demonstrated there wasnt much lacking on part of linux but the will of the publishers.
Ive no idea how you expect compatiblity b/w different OS. No such thing exist outside of trans-layers like wine or compile to those specifc platform. You cant run linux packages on windows. Need wsl(which is a linux kernel running virtualised) or a full VM to do so. You can run win on a vm inside linux if you so desire.
Who has to fix nvidia reluctance to properly publish their drivers?
@JasSmith the lack of motivation from publishers is due to the small customer base. Linux with ~5% market share with a heavy bias towards FOSS isnt a big market for most sw publisher. If it was most would put in the effort needed to publish to linux like they do for windows.
Pretty much all dev tools i use have a linux tar available if not a deb or rpm package.
Thats the major benefit of having a large customer base. So I'd argue you have to cause and effect in the opposite sides.
I don't expect magic, so I don't expect Linux to be a Windows competitor in the consumer space for many years to come.
Surely you can see the material differences between the Steam Deck and someone trying to install a flavour of Linux for themselves on their Windows PC. Valve has done everything. No tinkering with drivers. The hardware works out of the box. No complicated workarounds. No CLI. Every game is clearly labelled for compatibility in the UI. It even has functionality which Windows doesn't have like sleep and wake for games in progress. They've even gone with an immutable OS, so developers know their games will operate if tested on the one distribution.
@JasSmith i am not claiming linux is as easy as installing a mobile app. And android itself shows how easy it can be with linux before steamdeck. But those typically come at a cost of locked down or too dumbed down limited uses.
Also have you tried setting up a fresh install of windows? Its largely comparable to ubuntu for me having faced hardware issue for both.
Installation would never be as simple as preinstalls that you never think after buying.
We achieved both goals and now I have to force my Nvidia card into high performance mode because otherwise I have a black flicker on my screen constantly. It’s way better than it used to be, but it’s far from where it needs to be.
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