We’ve been telling you libs that you were enabling fascism for decades, but you just kept on simping for fascism anyway. Yet suddenly when you realize that you might be on the receiving end of it, suddenly you start to whine.
Yes, you’re right. When given a binary choice it’s always worse to choose the side that will bring more fascism. I’m glad you recognized that at one point. Hopefully you can come back around to it.
I love when PEOPLE on lemmy act like THEY tried to warn everyone so THEY'RE not responsible. How many election cycles have you participated in? You haven't done shit and will continue not doing shit, congratulations.
Out of the three choices available to me it’s brought the least fascism one can muster through the voting process. Not voting is a way to bring about marginally more fascism (I especially hope you are voting locally right?) There are 3 years and 364 other days to do political action. Please use those. I don’t see voting as anything but an awful way to choose the lesser of two evils and as a miniscule but necessary part of mine and your capacity for political action.
I wholeheartedly encourage you to spend your time advocating for socialism and trying to revive the movement, hell, I’ve spent time canvasing for local socialist candidates. You know what that didn’t stop me from doing? Spending 20 minutes walking to my polling place once every 4 years to vote for the least fascist out of 2 shitty candidates.
Of course. I hate the system I exist in. Not voting for either fascist is saying you’re ok with either one winning, and you’re fine with the more fascist one winning, not somehow ascending yourself out of the system.
At the end of the day one of only two candidates will win and enact their favored policies. As I said, please for the love of God be politically active in favor of socialism the other 3 years and 364 days that exist, we need to change the system.
unsurprisingly, “yeah he’s a fascist, but” is not a convincing answer. I’m voting for the PSL. I won’t be holding my nose to vote for this octogenarian zionist again , fuck that lmao
I mean, that’s fine. You’ve convinced yourself that both candidates are equally bad to placate yourself. That is so clearly not true but if you’re holding on to that totem there’s not a lot I can do about that.
You have rationalized yourself into voting for fascism, as if it’s the only moral option. Nothing you could say would ever make me take you or your opinions seriously. You are not someone I would take advice from, nor someone whose thoughts would ever affect my own, in any form.
Liberals have systematically destroyed all serious attempts at left wing organization, and put structures in place to make it impossible for them to reemerge. And they did this with a hundred times more gusto then they ever put towards stopping the rise of fascism.
If there was a serious revolutionary effort here, you would call them Russian/Chinese backed authoritarian terrorists and beg the government to drown them in white phosphorus
If there was a serious revolution here you would still stay home coming up with three new excuses an hour for why it isn’t your exact vintage of preferred revolution and why nothing will really change because of it.
Just a reminder: voting for the lesser of two evils has not ever resulted in the Democratic party stopping their march to the extreme right right alongside the GOP, to the point now that in order to vote for the Democratic nominee one must accept that their vote goes to supporting a genocide.
No one had to tell me it, it is self-evident. He’s the representative you choose and he’s going to absolutely 100% take your vote for him as vindication that supporting genocide is politically viable, which means Dems will keep fielding zionists and taking AIPAC money.
That’s the consequences of your choice. You need to accept that, not try to pretend you still get to have sone kind of moral high ground.
Well, I don’t support either one of them but it’s very clear that Trump is the worse of the two options in the two party system. I did not choose him. I really think it’s moronic for randos on the internet to try to tell me what I support. It’s not a moral issue for me, it’s a logical one.
Again, voting for Biden is not supporting him. I’ll acknowledge that he is one of two shitty options, but my brain works well enough to recognize that in a two party system, we’re not going to have more than two options. That’s just math.
My memory works well enough to remember the Trump regime and its lasting impacts on our country. Not voting for Biden is an endorsement for further rollbacks to bodily autonomy, a greater division in wealth, the privatization of public services, religious indoctrination in schools, AND the continued genocide of Palestinians.
It honestly still sounds like cope to me. You’re voting for Biden and the Biden agenda, but somehow think that declaring that you are not supporting him absolves you of enabling him. Take ownership of your actions.
You’re not being honest with yourself because you like to believe you’re a moral person, but it turns out you are willing to cache in your morals out of fear. Which I guess tracks, cowardice and will lead to cowardly actions.
Tell yourself what you need to in order to sleep at night, but your unwillingness to truly resist is why the country continues on the track it has been on, why Democrats keep following the GOP to the right.
The third option being doing nothing at all? Is that the third option or are you going to inform me of a new way to do electoral math?
I am voting for Biden as a vote against Trump. I do not support Biden; I abhor Trump. I am not really sure why this is difficult to process for you.
You keep mentioning morals after I already told you that my decision is not one based in morals; it's based in logic. Keep schilling for the right and you too will no longer need to worry about voting at all.
And I’m voting Uncommitted against Trump as well as zionism and genocide being tolerated in the Democratic party.
You might be ok with Dems being complicit in genocide, I am not and my action reflects that. It doesn’t take a whole lot to get my vote back, just don’t fund genocide. Easy, right?
You keep mentioning morals after I already told you that my decision is not one based in morals; it’s based in logic.
And I repeat the question you side-stepped; logically, how would one discourage Democrats from supporting genocide? Remember now, I’m not talking about Republicans, I know that they’re difficult to distinguish these days but I’m asking about Democrats. How, logically, does one stop Democrats from funding genocide and accepting AIPAC money?
In my state, we're not even having a primary. Again, tell me more about how to do the electoral math.
And I repeat the question you side-stepped; logically, how would one discourage Democrats ftom supporting genocide? Remember now, I’m not talking about Republicans, I know that they’re difficult to distinguish these days but I’m asking about Democrats. How, logically, does one stop Democrats from funding genocide and accepting AIPAC money?
Show up to the meetings in your county. Get the phone numbers of the local party leaders that you can actually speak with. Engage with them. Tell them what they need to support. I'm tired of being the youngest person in the room as a 40 year old, it doesn't bode well. All politics is local.
1.) I did not say to contact your representatives. I said to get in touch with your local party leaders. That means the people running the either weekly or monthly meetings that happen in your county. Depending on where you live, that might be your neighbor, or it might be someone down the street, but either way; it's going to be someone that you have a possible chance of encountering at a store in your area.
2.) Based on how you responded, I can infer that you haven't tried contacting your representatives either. So tell me again... what have you tried other than just doing nothing?
Ok, so the party leaders and representatives and your local city council or whoever else say "Nah, we like supporting genocide and taking AIPAC money, we’re going to keep doing that” what then?
What’s the next step, logically, if those in power aren’t listening or interested in changing their behavior?
Perhaps... but you also have to realize the timeline involved in such an endeavor. In the meantime, you have a two party system. Vote for the better option.
You’re just circling back around to alluding to Republicans again. I didn’t ask about how to stop Republicans. I asked how to stop right-wing extremist Democrats from directing the party.
You admit on one hand that getting people to vote against a genocide-supporting candidate is ultimately the way you influence the Democratic party’s support of genocide when those in power won’t listen, but then still end up at the conclusion that we should vote for the genocide-supporting candidate.
I fail to see how this will effect the Democrats future behavior. Why wouldn’t they just continue their strategy of propping up extremist right-wing opponents to make their genocide-supporting candidates the lesser of two evils?
What do you think, logically, I should infer then about your claim that you’re a logical decision maker?
What does "alluding to Republicans" even mean? I need an explanation of that statement because I can't process that.
I told you exactly what to do. If you missed it, scroll back up. It doesn't mean change is going to happen next week. It takes time and you've literally done nothing other than asking a bunch of questions and schilling for the right. Ask all the questions you want, and I'll answer them but you need to get off your ass and go be politically active within your community.
If you'd like me to figure out how to do this for you, let me know your county and state, and I'll be happy to get you pointed in the right direction.
While I’m so disaffected that I’ve had to have my fire rekindled to vote for the “least damaging option” yet again, and while I’ll be dragging my feet to the booth in November, I feel from key words in this conversation that their mastery of English is surprising to the point of suspect when I consider the errors they’re committing.
I’d advise saving your energy for a less disingenuous conversation.
I’m pointing out that in the end you still just invoke them as boogiemen. You still fall back to “Well, the reason you vote for the problematic Dems this time is…(because Republicans).” Which is what you’ll say next election and the next and the next.
It is the exact feedback loop I’m asking how to not participate in reinforcing since that very strategy has objectively failed for decades and only moved the nation further to the right. Yet it repeats because every election cycle morons come out and vote based on fear.
I’m explicitly not asking about kicking the can down the road again.
I told you exactly what to do. If you missed it, scroll back up.
You suggest asking nicely and then, if that doesn’t work, voting in local elections and hoping some day in some indeterminate future, that trickles up and effects the party leadership somehow.
I’m looking to destroy or disable the entrenched power structure in the DNC, not continue to indefinitely play a rigged game they themselves run. I’m not looking to help them continue playing grab-ass with the other flavor of fascists, do you understand?
I am 100% uninterested in waiting for the general public to wake up on their own, they can wake up from the slap across the face that is Donald Trump if thats what it takes to get them to actually move their dumbasses into gear. Because if that doesn’t do it then the general public will simply acclimate to the slow boil of fascism that we are currently experiencing, and that’s when things are truly done for good.
If someone is outnumbered by ineffectual morons with lots of money and entrenched political support and voting with the morons changes nothing, but voting against them disrupts their pattern of stupidity because they need your vote to move forward, then doing the latter is a legitimate choice to make. That is being politically active.
It’s the difference between getting on the idiot wagon or laying down in front of it.
It doesn’t mean change is going to happen next week.
Right, and how long do we continue empowering the lesser of two evils? How many generations before that cycle is spontaneously disrupted by “talking to your local party leadership”?
Fear-based “Later” politics are idiotic and cowardly. I’m opting out of that.
Just a reminder: voting for the lesser of two evils has not ever resulted in the Democratic party stopping their march to the extreme right right alongside the GOP, to the point now that in order to vote for the Democratic nominee one must accept that their vote goes to supporting a genocide.
“Their march to the extreme far right”
Tell me you don’t know history, or remember even 10 years ago, without telling me you don’t know history or remember 10 years ago.
Ten years, why not twenty? I wonder how Biden voted on the Iraq war and invasion of Afghanistan?
How long have we been voting for the technically less evil for now? And where are we at this exact moment? How many times were we all promised “Just vote fascist lite onnnnne more time and next election cycle will be better.”?
Well, how right-wing is genocide compared to starting an unjustfied war?
Do you actually think that somehow you’re going to convince people that we are both on the precipice of fascism but also the Democrats have gotten better at resisting fascism?
Yes there was a massive Lurch right in the 90s. Since then the Democrats have waffled extremely hard. Flirting with moving back left slightly but often retracting back to their '90s positions. But there have been a few solid moves to the left in the last 20 years. Nowhere near enough of course. But some is always better than none.
I will never vote for Joe Biden again. That decision was made many years ago and has nothing to do with his vile actions over the past few years.
If you feel like maybe you don’t wanna vote for Biden either, because he’s a genocidare or because he gave up on getting roe back or because he literally just came out and said the campus protests are wrong and he won’t change his mind, join me and cast a ballot for PSL at the presidential level instead.
Send a clear message that when the democrats run genocide Joe they won’t get your vote.
And more importantly, go get chummy with your neighbors. Make sure you have a few weeks worth of food in the pantry, get your finances straightened out, stay hydrated and keep some water in rotation.
No one knows what we’re facing in the future, but you can be a stabilizing force for yourself and those around you no matter what it is.
If you cared about that you’d be pressuring the democrats to run someone else.
If you believed it was a real threat you wouldn’t be trying to shame and browbeat people into casting a ballot for the democrats vile running dog and preparing to endure a time of upheaval instead.
If you cared about that you’d be pressuring the democrats to run someone else.
Who says I’m not?
If you believed it was a real threat you wouldn’t be trying to shame and browbeat people into casting a ballot for the democrats vile running dog and preparing to endure a time of upheaval instead.
And if you were a decent person you’d hold your nose and vote against the obvious worse choice.
But you both-sidesers just want to pat yourselves on the back.
I already said I won’t vote for Joe Biden. Nothing you say will ever convince me and the only effect your replies can have is on third party readers of them.
It doesn’t make me a bad person that there’s a bridge too far for lending my paltry, unimportant political support. Biden crossed that bridge before I even voted for him the first and only time in 2008.
I will be voting against trump though, since my PSL ballot isn’t gonna be counted for him.
If you think me and people like me (a group that is growing by the minute as Biden continues to carry water for Zionist fascism) are necessary for a democrat victory and you see that as of the highest importance, join us and add to the pressure the democrats are under to pick a different candidate.
Roe v Wade got obliterated in 2022, btw. Instead of codifying it when he entered office, he stood by and let it get scrapped. This does not sound like someone who respects women’s bodily autonomy.
damn, sounds like Dems are powerless to stop the ever-advancing march of American fascism, and we should be organizing alternate power structures to protect the most vulnerable around us, rather than hoping they’ll decide to do something useful this time around!
I’m not handing the election to anybody, I get one vote and it’s going to the PSL. You can place the blame for losing on the Dems for running such an absolute dogshit campaign and candidate.
You get one vote and you choose to throw it away (because you’re smart enough to know how the system works and what the stakes are right now) instead of using it in the only way that can meaningfully prevent Worse from beating Bad.
I’m not throwing anything away, I’m voting for the party that most represents my interests! This is the fundamental basis of a democracy! I’m sorry that your candidate is fucking garbage, but there’s no way I’m gonna hold my nose and vote for an octogenarian apartheid lover again. Maybe the party should’ve listened when so many people withheld their vote or voted “uncommitted” that it actually made the news.
Lmao okay :) my wife is trans, every one of my friends is some sort of queer or minority that the government would want to kill, and none of them are voting for biden. It would be cool if libs would stop throwing them around like a political football to deflect blame. Anyways, good luck in November! I guess we’ll see if this “ignoring everyone’s concerns for the future” strategy will work out as good as it did in 2016.
Which, you know, is effectively impossible. So it’s a throwaway vote. And you’ll counter that you’re in a red state anyways so Biden vote would be a throwaway too.
But then what you’re actually doing here and elsewhere is pushing the agenda for others to actively not vote for Biden; which, in other places, is absolutely not consistent with voting against Trump.
You are privileged enough to not have to care whether Bad or Worse gets elected. Must be nice.
My state might be a battleground tbh, idk. It doesn’t enter into my decision making.
I am literally out here trying to normalize not voting for Biden. They’re running the worst born loser trash candidate ever and he had an active hand in destroying this country over the last fifty years, is pissing away tax dollars on two foreign wars, one of which is a genocide and is speaking out in favor of people cracking protestor skulls.
Join me, walk away from omelas. Lend your voice to the chorus that the democrat strategists hear at night before their fitful sleep. Reject their awful candidate and demand better.
It’s way too late to genuinely campaign for that result. You know that.
The next thing that happens from here is that either Biden or Trump get elected. There is only one way to meaningfully vote against Trump. Anything else signals either plain ignorance, or a disregard for those those who would be affected more negatively by Worse than they would by Bad
We’re not past that. He could step down, the convention could choose someone else. You personally could just say “actually, I’m a human being with a heart that pumps blood that bleeds and I will not support this piece of trash” along with me.
It is never too late to stand up against genocide and the fascist police state.
The democrats already lost those voters anyway. Anyone who thinks Biden is a piece of shit but doesn’t want trump will just stay home. If anything you ought to hope that the democrats realize that Biden doesn’t have a path to victory and they run someone else. Then there’s a chance of getting all those people who voted him in during 2020 back onboard.
The third clinton campaign ought to have made it clear to you that you can’t scold people to the polls, don’t repeat the mistakes of the past.
Making a great case for the democrats. Their guy can literally be complicit in genocide and speaking out against free speech and the right to protest and they still won’t change course no matter how many raise their voices against them. Party of the people.
Let’s dive into how trying to get people to vote PSL is pushing worse over bad though. We agree that PSL ballots don’t get counted for trump and you’d have to be a paleo conservative to think the democrats have a better platform. How exactly is encouraging people to vote for the objectively better party and candidate pushing for worse?
Do you think it’s all about winning? Even on the off chance that PSL doesn’t sweep every state harder than Regan, significant support for a third party opens the doors for massive funding and institutional advantages.
And it shows the other parties that there’s a support base for that platform, leading them to change theirs.
Do you really think trump will be worse than Biden on free speech, protest and the gaza genocide?
What’s the line where you say “actually it’s better to push for an alternative than to try and pick 99.99% Hitler over the genuine article”?
And if you really think it’s about the terrain, why don’t you take an accelerationist view and push for the terrain that heightens the contradictions soonest?
We’re past the line. We should already be pushing for alternatives. That changes nothing about the strategy of working with the actual possibilities that exist in front of us, today.
And if you really think it’s about the terrain, why don’t you take an accelerationist view and push for the terrain that heightens the contradictions soonest?
Because like both-siders, that’s a ridiculous and juvenile political take.
Okay, well you only have one vote. When is it more important to use it for an alternative rather than perpetuate a possibly (I gotta emphasize this) less bad status quo?
And I don’t ascribe to accelerationism but it’s not juvenile by any means. How is your outlook of using the only minuscule political agency you’re allowed within the American electoral system to make the terrain a little nicer for everyone any different than using it to move closer to where it’s bad enough that a mass uprising happens?
People don’t overthrow their rulers when everything’s hunky dory.
So there’s never a time when voting for a third party that isn’t projected to be in the running is acceptable?
Knowing that the institutional acceptance and funding mechanisms for third parties are tied to their turnout and that third party turnout signals to the two main parties where they could shift to get votes?
What’s so funny? The Perot campaign defined messaging on nafta and put us on track to run candidates who would replace it over two decades before it happened.
It’s easy to laugh at and dismiss third parties or accelerationism, and maybe that kind of rhetoric works on twitter or whatever, but refusal to engage with or critique ideas is the mark of a deeply unserious outlook.
To your point about the structure of the system, if you never color outside the lines, you’ll never end up with anything different than what was intended when the page was printed.
Its funny because you’re still trying to package it like Biden and Trump are just a hairs-width apart in policy and track record, and then bake in all these and-thens on top.
The fact is the risk of a Trump presidency is too big of a threat not to snuff out. If you don’t believe that, then your head has been up your ass for the last 8 years.
From where I’m standing, Biden has more border detentions, let Covid rip, is funding a genocide, didn’t protect roe and is currently supporting a crackdown on protesters.
That’s just what popped into my head sitting here on the edge of a mop sink. Biden of course has a terrible record going back fifty years so maybe don’t invoke records if you wanna make a side by side comparison where genocide Joe comes out smelling less shitty.
It’s hard to place the two men on a continuum between best and worst when they both just look like bespoke types of bad.
I’m not the only person who sees them this way. Biden lost the youth and “progressive” (whatever that means) vote. Can he tack far enough right to win without them? I don’t know and I don’t care.
I haven’t been both sidesing. They’re not the same, they’re just both bad.
I’m sorry you don’t like me saying that, but truly, how am I supposed to describe the at best centrist democrat candidate who’s electoral strategy seems to be flanking his opponent on the right?
That’s a pretty creative cut there. Watch out with that kind of stuff, we’re posting on world and they hate someone breaking their precious Reddit debate rules.
I’m sorry that you don’t have any argument other than to accuse me of both sidesing.
Biden is actively implementing a bunch of the same policies as trump plus doing some stuff in a uniquely different but still bad way.
You say you don’t want fascism and that’s why you’ll do anything to avoid trump. You currently have fascism under Biden. When do you lose faith in the electoral system? I asked earlier but when do you stop trying to pick the best genocide and put all your energy behind actually fighting it?
I keep giving concrete examples of how they both exist on the far right side of any classification a person might deploy and you keep calling names and dismissing me.
Why not engage in good faith instead? Show how Biden is different, how he’s not an outdated at best right of center husk, unfit for the moment he’s clawed his way to the top of!
once again, i have over and over treated you with the kindness and courtesy all people deserve, entertained your arguments and engaged with you politely.
i even invited you several times to abandon supporting a genocidaire and throw your vote away with me, as a true expression of the world you want, as material support that confers real advantages to third parties and to send an irrefutable message to the democrats that they can’t just tack right and expect to always have your suport.
how can you expect me not to just call you names and dismiss your ideas but not hold yourself to the same standard?
where is even the pretense of seeing the left as your allies? that you share the same vision?
if you made those arguments before, click the little arrow next to your name in the top right, select “profile”, scroll to the posts and copy and paste them here. it shouldn’t take much editing to make them fit our context and discussion.
You’ve treated the entire discussion from an inherent, single-issue view point to try and paint the situation as vastly different from reality.
Being polite doesn’t excuse being deliberately dishonest.
Since you won’t own up to it, I’m done here, and will continue to call it out elsewhere. Better that people see the con you’re trying to pull spelled out than waste my time in this buried thread.
Now go ahead and leave one last comment where you pretend to be disappointed that I won’t engage in your “totally honest and genuine” attempt at discourse.
At this point, I honestly doubt Biden will do anything to stop this from happening anyways. I have 0 confidence he will do what needs to be done to protect trans people.
Man, this last few dozen presidential voting cycles have been shittier and shittier every 4 years.
It’s no wonder people aren’t interested in voting, of course if they were some of these problems would sort themselves out… regardless, it’s hard to encourage people to vote when you’re voting against a shit sandwich and a literal piece of shit.
oh so there isn’t a genocide? the United States doesn’t have one of the most proportionally incarcerated populations in the world? our police didn’t drive a tank to a college campus?
So here is a Trump quote about from a few days ago about Israels war on Hamas:
They’re losing the PR war. They’re losing it big. But they’ve got to finish what they started, and they’ve got to finish it fast, and we have to get on with life.
So he actually wants Israel to speed up it’s military operation and win.
As you can see, the US foreign policy position on Israel has absolutly nothing to do with with party or president. In fact, Trump is arguably more pro-Israel. He was also the one that moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, which was a big diplomatic “fuck you” for Palestinians.
the United States doesn’t have one of the most proportionally incarcerated populations in the world? our police didn’t drive a tank to a college campus?
Both of these have been true for decades and have nothing to do with Biden, just stupid whataboutism.
it’s almost as if I am not trying to win clever points lmao
hey! you can take your disingenuous ass out of this conversation though because if you can’t think of an option other than voting Biden, trump, or not at all, then you’re either lying or you’re so uneducated that you wouldn’t be able to understand the conversation anyway
Teach democratic leadership that the progressive vote is fairweather at best and that efforts are better spent courting centrist independents who actually show up and vote without having to be beaten over the head with a rhetorical crowbar to convince them to do literally the bare minimum civic duty.
As opposed to the loyal centrist vote that checks notes formed a fucking PAC to elect John McCain the last time the party didn’t give them everything they wanted.
The point is that they don’t have to be convinced to show up at all, just that they have to be convinced to vote for you specifically.
Some folks in this discussion think that not even being that reliable is some sort of virtue that sends a positive message about their attractiveness as a campaignable demographic.
Where are you getting this information that centrists have higher voter turnout than leftists?
Centrists/swing-voters are definitely not reliable voters for Dems and I don’t know that it’s true that they have high voter turnout overall, yet they are still the focus of Dem campaigns.
Dems think they don’t have to appeal to leftist voters because they think of them as a reliable base. The unreliability of centrists is what makes them a target for campaigning.
Dems don’t try appealing to the left because the left is anything but a fucking base. If the left spent half the energy on primary turnout alone that they do on bitching and moaning on the internet Bernie would have won both primaries handily and the generals by landslide margins.
Bernie did extremely well in the primaries, definitely got votes beyond just the hardcore left population. Idk it just seems like the things you’re saying aren’t rooted in facts.
He did but he lost because both times the youth vote failed to turn out at a rate equal to their share of the population. Nevermind the easy overrepresenting share they could take in the party primary process given the fact that boomers break right much more than Millenials and Zoomers.
It wasn’t DNC meddling that defeated Bernie Sanders, it was the entitlement of the white left to everyone else doing the revolution for them and then putting them in charge of it afterwards.
Now you’re just conflating young people with leftists? And there are structural reasons young people don’t vote as much, in the US people don’t get time off for voting. That impacts young people of any political leaning. And white people vote at way higher rates than other races? Probably due to the structural barriers to voting?
Where are you getting these talking points for real
Millenials and Zoomers bend significantly to the left of previous cohorts
structural barriers does not excuse 27% turnout being considered an unusually good year. In fact it makes the case even further that these kids ought to be out in force to speak for the folks who are actually getting marginalized by systemic barriers to voting and that choosing not to is a letting down of others they need to be answering for.
Younger generations lean left, but not nearly enough to conflate them. Especially since there are plenty of older folks who are lefty as well. To make the point you’re trying to make, you would have to show that leftist voters vote less often than voters of other political leanings in the same demographic.
Younger people have less money than older generations, less seniority at work that lets them take time off. If you have to pick between making rent or voting, a lot of people are going to pick rent. Kind of fucked up for you to just dismiss structural barriers out of hand, it’s people like you who perpetuate these problems you claim to care about. You want to solve a problem you look at the underlying system, blaming individuals, especially those who already have the least money, power, and political influence, rarely does any good.
Your arguments just feel like you want to be mad at youngsters. Like the same kind of stuff people stay about the protestors, calling them entitled rich kids. It’s really gross and you don’t have any evidence to back your claims, nor do you present any solutions. And you’d probably be mad if the leftist kids came out and didn’t vote for the person you wanted.
How about instead of just trying to blame the youth, you get mad at the wealthy people who have convinced you to turn against your own people just because they are younger than you? Get mad at the centrist Dems who vote for any Democrat placed in front of them, no matter how reprehensible their politics? Where are you getting these anti-youth leftist talking points I seriously want to know.
Trump is worse, of course, but you are getting mainly downvotes because this is basically true and there is no counterargument that doesn’t depend on the fact that American politics is broken. The comic isn’t totally right (e.g. project 2025 is not Biden’s plan) but it’s too close for comfort for some people.
Think about the response if Trump was funding a genocide and protesters were being arrested, silenced and vilified under his watch. Every single comment section would be flooded with people explaining how this is a key pillar of fascism.
But it’s all fine and people should grin and bear it because the bar is so fucking low you’re more likely to stub your toe on it than fail to clear it.
Who said all is fine and people should grin and bear it? Last I checked, there were several protests happening at universities across the country.
One thing that I can mention as my experience… as a 40 year old, I was the youngest person at the local Democratic Party meeting last time there was one…
I wasn’t there in support of what’s going on, I was there to attempt to influence the party. I’ve been trying to convince them that the way to gain more votes is actually shifting further left.
My takeaways from that experience…
1.) People in their 20’s should be showing up to the meetings and shifting the party left, but they’re not.
2.) The party is only going to listen to people that do show up… which seems like the average age was probably 65.
They don't seem to be incredibly active in my area unfortunately, otherwise, I'd be there 100%. Their closest chapter is in Orlando, and that's about an hour south of me, they're not in my district whatsoever. Once I move to CO, I'm hoping to sync up with DSA.
I signed up with the SRA a while back and that was $35 wasted. Their closest chapter was in Jacksonville. They never reached out to me beyond sending me a link to discord (which I don't use). When I wrote an email asking for info, I was ignored.
When dumb assholes continue to say dumb shit, and their username happens to imply that their brain is somewhere other than in their cranium; it simply checks out. There's no high ground. My username could be "shit-shingles" and it wouldn't be implicit that my brain is elsewhere... "brain_in_a_box" on the other hand...
Pretty fucking depressing that the anti fascism vote is also the keep supporting genocide vote. It’s a trolley problem but one track only has foreigners tied to it so we’re supposed to cheer for that option I guess
One track has Palestinians tied to it, the other track has more Palestinians tied to it, Ukrainians and probably others tied to it, AND American minorities by the bushel.
If you’re looking for a point in history when there wasn’t someone getting hit by the trolley, you’ll be looking a while. We have to find the choice that is most achievable and least damaging.
You’re seriously casting “stop supporting genocide” as a pipe dream for people with unrealistic expectations.
Congratulations. You’ve ‘stopped supporting genocide’ by witholding your vote for mean ol’ Biden. That’ll show him!
The trolley now goes down the Trump rail, and crushes even more Palestinians, in addition to Ukrainians, American minorities, and god knows who else.
Yeah, gonna go ahead and say that “CORNEL WEST COMES OUT OF THE DRESSING ROOM WITH A STEEL CHAIR!” or whatever the red herring candidate du jour is is a fucking pipe dream.
So your argument, then, is that you will be withholding your “support for genocide”, by doing exactly what everyone who is “supporting genocide” is doing.
One track has Palestinians tied to it, the other track has more Palestinians tied to it, Ukrainians and probably others tied to it, AND American minorities by the bushel.
Yeah wooooo go Biden so proud 🤣 vote democrat, we will probably be responsible for less death and suffering. New slogan right there. “SLIGHTLY! LESS! DEATH!”
It’s a complicated situation though golly who knows how to fix this problem
We have to find the choice that is most achievable and least damaging.
The smart people know that. Only problem is that not all of the people are smart and they all have the same voting power
I’m not saying it’s a bad decision given the situation. I’m saying the situation is dog shit and perhaps will come back to bite us in the ass when “slightly less death!” isn’t the biggest motivation to get out and vote.
I would be more sympathetic to your point if Biden couldn’t stop supporting this immediately with relative ease. Most voters are against what Israel is doing and especially democrats. It’s not like it would hurt his election chances. It’s not like the protests this has inspired are a good look anyway.
Americans Divided Over U.S. Support for Israel and the Palestinians Do you think the United States supports [Israel/the Palestinians] too much, about the right amount or too little? % Too much% Right amount% Too little% No opinion U.S. support for Israel U.S. adults 36 38 24 Republicans 26 37 37 Independents 40 36 22 Democrats 40 43 15
Most Americans, including most Democrats, think that the current level of support for Israel is either correct or too little.
Approval of Israel’s military action is separate from approval for the current US support for Israel, as the numbers compared from November and March (from Gallup, in your poll) show (compared to the numbers, also from Gallup, in the poll I cited). 63% of Democrats in November disapproved of Israel’s military action, yet, in December, 58% of Democrats still believed that US support for Israel was either appropriate or not enough. Again, both of those numbers, from the poll you cited and the one I did, are both from Gallup.
Man, if your argument is that people are fucking insane and don’t pay enough attention to matters of civic importance, I’m onboard. But if your argument is that this is an easy win for Biden that he’s just not taking, I don’t think the evidence backs that up, as much as I wish it did.
I would stress that my original point about this polling was
Most voters are against what Israel is doing and especially democrats.
Which is true, as per the most recent poll.
63% of Democrats in November disapproved of Israel’s military action, yet, in December, 58% of Democrats still believed that US support for Israel was either appropriate or not enough
But yeah good point. People are fucking stupid.
But if your argument is that this is an easy win for Biden that he’s just not taking, I don’t think the evidence backs that up, as much as I wish it did.
I think opinion has clearly shifted, as shown by the declining support for Israel’s military action. Even the poll I cited is now months old. So it’s likely less support funding them now. But yeah we don’t know that so kind of a moot point.
But what is true is that people don’t like Biden’s handling of this issue (shown by polling), that people don’t like what Israel is doing (polling) and that supporting genocide is bad (hopefully common sense).
So I don’t know. Maybe condition aid on not committing fucking war crimes? I think in any case it’s clear voters are not happy about Israel’s actions and Biden’s support for it obviously makes it more difficult for people to support him. If we insist in sticking with the polling and not necessarily morals, he should at least be clear in his condemnation of what they are doing.
I mean, I absolutely am in favor of Biden cutting off aid, at least conditionally (though honestly I’d be ecstatic if it was unconditional and permanent, fuck Israel). If it’s a lose-lose situation, one should go with the more moral loss. I just also recognize that it’s not a cut-and-dry strategic decision.
I hope that if the anti-Israel momentum continues, the pressure will cause Biden to shift - and considering his current responsiveness and his history of swaying with popular Dem opinion, I have hopes that he will if hostility towards Israel continues to increase in the Dem party.
Honestly, I didn’t think we’d even make it this far. When Israel’s disproportionate response to Oct 7th happened, I was well and truly prepared for the US electorate to shrug their shoulders and continue supporting Israel at the same rate like every other time this has happened in my lifetime. So maybe I’m more cynical than I should be on the matter.
It’s complicated for sure. I never thought it would get this far either.
I mean, I absolutely am in favor of Biden cutting off aid, at least conditionally (though honestly I’d be ecstatic if it was unconditional and permanent, fuck Israel). If it’s a lose-lose situation, one should go with the more moral loss. I just also recognize that it’s not a cut-and-dry strategic decision.
Agreed! I think conditionally cutting is best, make it clear you don’t support war crimes and genocide while still having cover - “the funding is available, we just insist that international law is followed.”
If you’re looking for a point in history when there wasn’t someone getting hit by the trolley, you’ll be looking a while
Sounds like I should do what’s best to send a message to the Democrats in an effort to steer them away from being murderous then, since people are going to die either way and there is no winning with this single election. Thanks!
Sounds like I should do what’s best to send a message to the Democrats then, since people are going to die either way and there is no winning with this single vote. Thanks!
“People are going to die either way, so I might as well enable the worse choice!” - Voter in Weimar Germany
Nice work, good job on murdering as many minorities as you can because… people are going to die anyway, so it may as well be as many as possible?
And fascist simps like you wonder why you’re disdained by so many.
No, turning away the Democrats from having killing as a policy is.
As you say, people are going going to die anyway “that’s just reality” and I have to vote for a fascist if I vote for anyone. May as well cast an Uncommitted and punish the party that should be anti-genocide but isn’t currently.
(I am one of the minorities that will be targeted by a GOP admin, btw)
“And punish the party” by… giving power to fascists?
You… you think that the electoral victory of the far-right will push the overton window… left?
Are you dumb, or just pretending to be?
(I am one of the minorities that will be targeted by a GOP admin, btw)
Congrats, we’ll be in line in the concentration camps together. I’m sure you’ll be loudly crying out “AT LEAST I DIDN’T VOTE FOR THE DEMONRATS” as the showers turn on for us.
When the Democratic party’s strategists have decided that “you definitely don’t want the other guy voted in” in place of literally any other strategy is their best option, please explain to me why anyone further left of your centrism should believe that the administration will take another vote cast for them as anything but approval of the job they’ve done so far and an endorsement of more of the same.
On the flip side, to hold Biden himself accountable for the overreaction from University boards’ decisions on behalf of their corporate masters (donors, if that wasn’t clear), or responsible for the large number of Representatives and Senators making and voting for policy with their heads up their own or others’ asses, when he has been caught on the hot mic disparaging Netanyahu for how Israel is conducting itself is holding the wrong person accountable.
I get where they’re coming from. I get it on a level you clearly don’t because you have proven time and again that you have little capacity to sympathize with those who are clearly tired of voting for the “least damaging option”. Take a break and let someone else debate with them, because the more you criticize the further you’ll solidify their position.
When the Democratic party’s strategists have decided that “you definitely don’t want the other guy voted in” in place of literally any other strategy is their best option, please explain to me why anyone further left of your centrism should believe that the administration will take another vote cast for them as anything but approval of the job they’ve done so far and an endorsement of more of the same.
Because the administration is full of politicians who have continually shifted with popular opinion. You wanna explain to me how a far-right fascist winning an election is going to convince the centrists in the Democratic Party that sentiment has shifted left and not right?
I get where they’re coming from. I get it on a level you clearly don’t because you have proven time and again that you have little capacity to sympathize with those who are clearly tired of voting for the “least damaging option”. Take a break and let someone else debate with them, because the more you criticize the further you’ll solidify their position.
Gee, I wonder why I don’t have much sympathy for those who are “tired” of voting for the “least damaging option”. Guess I’ll mull that over in line to the fucking concentration camps.
Get your privileged bullshit out of here, and go play apologist for fascism enablers somewhere where they give a damn about your overwhelming desire to see oppressed groups murdered so you can feel warm and fuzzy about how politically pure fascism apologists are when they stamp their feet and cry both sides are the same. Me? I’m more interested in not getting murdered and not seeing any of my family or friends murdered by a fascist regime which has no intention of letting another democratic election happen as long as it exists.
I’m not sure exactly what you mean, but both sides have their defenders and haters making pictures, toons, caricatures etc like this of their opponent, they always have. But it so happens that this particular artist doesn’t like Trump or Biden (same as me).
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