ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

Having made a perfectly good notes app as a single-page, hosted-for-free web app, I now wonder what else could be done like this and what would be a great additional enabling tech.

I still really want a personal, private, key-value store with a simple REST API.

If people could have this then all sorts of stuff would be possible with super-cheap web apps.

And I wonder if things like this exist. But it’s SO hard to find them. Because nothing is simple. Everything is made over-complicated!

ttntm,
@ttntm@fosstodon.org avatar

@ross I made a couple of those too.

I think itrack.work is the simplest I made.

As for KV storage: I like/d using fauna, but I never had too many user on any of my services, so I can't argue about cost for 100s of users.

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@ttntm That’s really nice. Reminds me of Thyme: https://usethyme.com/

I remember when I first saw Thyme. The lack of a login totally threw me! But it’s such a cool feature!!

ttntm,
@ttntm@fosstodon.org avatar

@ross Cool, seems to have a couple more features than my super-minimal tracker ;)

I'll be sure to keep it in mind, thanks for sharing!

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@ttntm Super-minimal is great though! That’s my point. Build something that works for you. It doesn’t need all the bells and whistles of another too. You don’t have to compete. 😃

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@ttntm what else did you build? Did you say there were other things?

ttntm,
@ttntm@fosstodon.org avatar

@ross good point, I typed that comment on my phone and forgot to include URLs.

the first one was https://recept0r.com (family recipes); me and my wife are still using it a couple of times per week.

then there's https://watch3r.app which has somewhere between 50 and 100 users of varying activity. I myself use it every second day or so.

both are serverless SPAs built on top of netlify/fauna and haven't cost me anything in almost 4 years (if we can agree to ignore domain renewals).

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@ttntm These are really great. I’ll have to look into Fauna. Could be just what I need!

ttntm,
@ttntm@fosstodon.org avatar

@ross thanks 😊

Let me know if you want to know anything in more depth. Fauna's changed quite a bit over the years, but I think the fundamentals are still the same.

RadtkeJCJ,
@RadtkeJCJ@fosstodon.org avatar

@ross this is interesting - is the point that you don't need to host them yourself, since they work primarily locally and don't need lots of server resources?

I have been playing with yunohost for selfhosting which is pretty simple but requires a bit of work. I host a few tools that work along the lines you're describing, like a QR code generator for my friend who makes a lot of posters. I'd love to learn to build such things myself :)

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@RadtkeJCJ It’s hard to know what technical level to reply at. So forgive me and ask where I’ve missed the mark.

There’s services like Netlify and Cloudflare Pages that let you host files for free. This is good for HTML/CSS/JavaScript and images. It won’t let you RUN any code like PHP or Python and there’s no database. Just files.

So if you can build a site/page/app using just files they will host for free!

RadtkeJCJ,
@RadtkeJCJ@fosstodon.org avatar

@ross nice! I didn't know about those services. I'm very much a desktop developer, never really done anything web-based. I shall go read your post :) thank you!

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar
urusan,
@urusan@fosstodon.org avatar
kboyd,
@kboyd@phpc.social avatar

@ross what auth approach should it use?

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@kboyd I had a bunch of services recommended a while back. All of them were just too complicated.

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

Simple one-page web apps can be quick to build and free to host.

I consider several of mine “finished” software. They won’t ever need updates (unless browsers deprecate functionality). There is no maintenance burden.

We CAN build software like this now. So why don’t we?

FWIW… things I made:

https://notes.veryuseful.app/
https://veryuseful.app/
https://caniphp.com/
https://golf.pico.games/

Starfia,
@Starfia@mastodon.social avatar

@ross

I'm so fond of Web Apps.

May I ask for suggestions for free places to host them?

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@Starfia I wrote up my approach here:

https://rosswintle.uk/2023/08/free-websites-for-side-projects/

If it’s just static files (HTML/CSS/JavaScript) you can put it on Netlify or Cloudflare pages. They have generous free allowances for these services.

You can deploy with Git, or drag and drop files/folders to be hosted.

mike805,

@ross Dice golf looks interesting. Here's mine. Move files from anywhere to anywhere using WebRTC, and use a webcam as a security camera. https://TheUnCloud.co

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@mike805 Yes!! This is what I’m talking about. No signups. No emails. Built-in browser tech. No downloads. No apps!

Very good. I like a lot!!

mike805,

@ross Spread the word please. Trying to get it into widespread use. No I am not going to put ads on the site. Thank you

ronoaldo,

@ross I am planning to build some as well. I often find myself googling some tools and this looks like a fun project 😁

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@ronoaldo Cool! Let me know what you make! Or if you need help.

tappenden,

@ross Doesn't DynamoDB fit that bill?

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@tappenden Nah. Too hard to set up. Needs to be consumer-level easy.

tappenden,

@ross Hmm.

tappenden,

@ross I’m struggling to parse “key-value store” and “consumer”.

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@tappenden Well. Technically it would be a KV store. But for the user it would just be cloud storage.

App would have a “link to cloud storage” button.

That would OAuth you with the store.

Then the app can read/write to the store.

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@tappenden like Dropbox but for simple structured data like JSON blobs.

tappenden,

@ross You can’t tell a consumer that. A consumer doesn’t know what a JSON blob is.

You could easily make a service that did this, by just putting a really simple front on DynamoDB, or even S3. But how would you sell it?

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@tappenden You’ve made a big leap from “I really want” to “You could make” to “How would you sell…?” 😉

Sure. Such a service wouldn’t be about JSON Blobs for the user.

Just a “cloud save” thing. But one that can be shared between apps. Securely - of course!

tappenden,

@ross “I still really want a personal, private, key-value store with a simple REST API.

If people could have this then all sorts of stuff would be possible with super-cheap web apps.

And I wonder if things like this exist. But it’s SO hard to find them. Because nothing is simple. Everything is made over-complicated!”

You say you want this. I’m saying it’s technically easy, but tricky in practice.

This is not a big leap. This is how you get from complaint to resolution.

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@tappenden Oh, I know it’s both of those things. I could make it if I wanted to.

The complaint isn’t that this doesn’t exist (that’s more of a dream!). The complaint is that things become complicated because for them to exist they have to be monetised and marketed and spam proof and legal-proof and…

So I don’t want to make it precisely because it’s “tricky in practice”.

The “I want” is an idealistic dream. The frustration is almost that such a thing can’t exist as I want it.

tappenden,

@ross Uh huh. I don’t really do idealism, sorry.

I’m sure it can be made to work, if you really want it. It’s tricky. It needs thinking about. It’s not impossible.

Anyway, lucky for you, it’s my bedtime.

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@tappenden I only have fleeting moments of it.

Thanks for the info. I’m pretty up on what the possible technical solutions are. But it’s all good to know. Thank you.

Have a good night!

tappenden,

@ross iCloud has this, but it’s almost completely hidden from consumers.

I can’t think how you could make this into something people would sign up for and pay for on its own.

Perhaps you’d need to charge apps that use it, and then let them decide how to monetise their apps?

It’s gotta be paid for. It’s gonna be cheap, but it’s still gotta be paid for.

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

@tappenden Yeah. I know Bear Notes was working on something like this. A web-based app that synced using CloudKit.

And yes. It totally wouldn’t work as a product on its own. But maybe as a layer on top of Dropbox or Google Drive?

Could probably just store JSON files in Dropbox to be honest. Might try that and see if it works well.

kboyd,
@kboyd@phpc.social avatar

@tappenden @ross S3 and DO object storage might be a better fit

ross,
@ross@fosstodon.org avatar

Oh and also: things are made over-complicated so that they can be monetised. And to make them monetised they need huge marketing efforts with lots of SEO. And this is why finding simple stuff is hard. It’s lost.

The recently re-ignited interest in the indieweb is GREAT! But what if this also encompassed simple web apps and games built as open source using modern web standards?

What if apps like this were as common as blogs?

How could these be made discoverable? What’s the App Store for these?

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