rysiek, (edited )
@rysiek@mstdn.social avatar

If you need to "clarify" your Terms of Service (ToS) in a blog-post, your ToS are shit and need to be re-written.

✨ I don't give a crap about your blogpost. If it's not in the ToS, it's not binding. ✨

If you think I should understand your ToS in a specific way, great, there exists a perfect place to put that clarification in: your ToS.

And if you think your ToS are getting too long? Well that is hardly my fault, now is it.

arclight,

@rysiek As it turns out, lawyers will write whatever they are incentivized to write. If the TOS is unclear or too long, either the lawyers aren't very good or (more likely) the client has conflicting, inflexible, and/or and incoherent goals and probably isn't very smart.

SitaDulip,

@rysiek Out of curiosity, who decided to do this? So I can avoid in the future!

rysiek,
@rysiek@mstdn.social avatar

@SitaDulip Zoom is the specific trigger this time.

richard_merren,
@richard_merren@mastodon.social avatar

@rysiek In glad you clarified before the Star Trek fans started chiming in about what is or isn't in TOS.

robryk,
@robryk@qoto.org avatar

@rysiek

> If it's not in the ToS, it's not binding.

I wouldn't be sure. The standard legal theory is that intent of the parties when entering the contract trumps its letter (e.g. if the letter of the contract contains a typo that changes its meaning, and it can be shown that both parties intended to enter a contract without that typo, the contract without the typo can be enforced). The blogpost can be very strong evidence of intent.

That said, arguing that in front of a court will be risky and costly, regardless of whether it's actually correct.

rysiek,
@rysiek@mstdn.social avatar

@robryk blogpost can be helpful, sure, but as a user of a service, how the fsck am I to know that there's a blogpost that proves my point?

In other words, this kind of thing can be used to purposefully obscure stuff. You write X in your ToS, you get pushback, you "clarify" it in a blogpost that you send to the critics, but regular users still only read the ToS and are none the wiser.

Pretty crap move.

robryk,
@robryk@qoto.org avatar

@rysiek

That sounds like an undesirable situation for the company though: regular users see only the terms that can be understood to be worse than the terms they could actually argue in court they are getting. So, the company gets loss of business due to user-unfriendly terms and the user-unfriendliness is probably unenforceable. (IOW, isn't this unforced self-generated negative PR?)

rysiek,
@rysiek@mstdn.social avatar

@robryk or, they get to try to convince users that the worse terms are in effect, and a lot of users just fall for that without a fight?

robryk,
@robryk@qoto.org avatar

@rysiek

But what does falling for it consist of? The company can choose to act according to worse terms or not; they can't divine whether a given user has fallen for that and act differently in that case.

(I'm thinking of a difference in terms that allows the company to e.g. use user's data for something; perhaps I'm not seeing the kind of difference you meant?)

rysiek, (edited )
@rysiek@mstdn.social avatar

@robryk I never said it's a good strategy. But I can totally see it as a strategy devised by some idiot CEO to try to "maximize shareholder value."

"""
When we get criticized for this ToS change, we'll point people to this blogpost and claim its fixed.

Meanwhile, for most people, we'll just continue to use the exact language in the ToS, training them AIs on their data. They will never find that blogpost anyway!

We can't lose!
"""

It's bullshit, but I can totally see that kind of conversation

guiltmanager,

@rysiek had this myself with a company, emailed me about a promo, didn't even point out that the terms were in the blogpost then said i didnt qualify because wait for it, i didnt read the blogpost that they never said the terms were in, all they said is read more on the blog. not, the full terms are on the blog.

fsinn,

@rysiek 100%

MariaLiv,

@rysiek And may I ask, what, wha cough what is a ToS? 😬 I mean, I am actually asking for some man (or woman) to explain this to me. Thank you 💛

Loukas,
@Loukas@mastodon.nu avatar

@MariaLiv @rysiek terms of service

MariaLiv,

@Loukas @rysiek Aha, thank you Loukas! 😊

rysiek,
@rysiek@mstdn.social avatar

@MariaLiv @Loukas edited the toot to make it clear

MariaLiv,

@rysiek @Loukas Ok! 🌟🌟🌟

Deus,
@Deus@charcha.cc avatar

What about cases where IT Laws change for the sake of e.g. ‘national security’ and you have to notify your novice (aka non-tech savvy) users?

/Not commenting to argue but asking.

mwl,
@mwl@io.mwl.io avatar

@rysiek

plus: if it is not in the ToS, it is not binding.

Discussions around a contract are irrelevant. Only the contract matters.

kissane,
@kissane@mas.to avatar

@mwl @rysiek The statement, “If it's not in the ToS, it's not binding,” is in the post you’re replying to.

mwl,
@mwl@io.mwl.io avatar

@kissane It's ironic emphasis.

@rysiek and I are mutuals, he's accustomed to my funny little ways.

rysiek,
@rysiek@mstdn.social avatar

@mwl who are you?! Where did you get this number?!

@kissane

kissane,
@kissane@mas.to avatar

@mwl @rysiek lol ok sorry

it keeps happening to me in replies from strangers and always makes my eyes cross a bit

rysiek,
@rysiek@mstdn.social avatar

@kissane :blobcatheart: @mwl

mwl,
@mwl@io.mwl.io avatar

@kissane @rysiek

The Internet is full of annoying people, yes. And I suspect that, at times, we are three of them. ;-) Peace.

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