Hydrogen will be the future when it is 95% produced by solar or some other low polluting method. Right now it is just a way for petrochemicals to stay relevant in the 'renewables' market.
The fact that it is currently 95% from fossil fuels is a conspiracy theory?
Fossil fuel companies have decades of history of manipulating renewable initiatives towards their own byproducts. Keeping that in mind so we can focus on the long term need for cleaner hydrogen production is important so we don't pretend hydrogen from fossil fuels is clean just because the hydrogen is clean at the point of use.
It's the same accusation made against BEVs. That it is just powering cars with coal. But it's a dumb argument because you can power them with anything. Same is true with hydrogen.
Except we had already made massive strides with production of electricity through solar, wind, and other renewables and have continued to improve the ratios of renewable to fossil fuel generation for electricity. All of the renewable methods had enough obvious potential that the claims it was mostly fossil fuel were accurate, but there was a foreseeable path away from fossil fuels. Note that a lot of the 'it is just fossil fuels so it isn't better' came from fossil fuel producers who wanted to muddy the water.
Hydrogen is still at a place where there is no obvious potential growth in using renewables to produce hydrogen. The only thing that is currently obviously scalable is more fossil fuel based production. That doesn't require the fossil fuel companies to end provide misinformation, that is just where we are at technologically the last I checked when electric and hydrogen cars were being compared as the new potential hotness within the last decade.
Is there some new scalable production method for hydrogen that has come out that I missed that will impact that 95% rate? If there is I will be pleasantly surprised!
And what is the end result of that, other than equally massive strides in production of green hydrogen? You cannot say that renewable can take off, but then claim that its direct consequences won't happen.
It's pretty obvious you didn't read the article. Green hydrogen is absolute necessary for a green society. It's not merely an idea anymore. People who still think otherwise are either stuck 10 years in the past, or are repeating generic anti-green energy lies, no different than what the fossil fuel industry said about renewable energy.
Look, there are multiple things going on and you are dismissing one criticism because one part of the process is lagging behind.
Electric and hydrogen vehicles are awesome! The both reduce pollution in cities and places where people live by reducing it at the point of use. We absolutely need to continue the work on the use of hydrogen fuel cells for applications for the same reason as electric, primarily the short term benefits and the long term potential of being 100% renewable.
I mean my first response was that we needed to focus on more renewable methods for producing hydrogen because right now the fossil fuel companies are set up to benefit immediately from any increase and that will just incentivize them to spread more misinformation as the renewables get sorted out.
You started saying that it is just a way for oil companies to sell more oil. That's literally your first post in this thread. That is the conspiracy theory.
No, I said since oil companies currently account for 95% of hydrogen production and no scalable alternatives currently exist, oil companies will be excited to see increased demand for their products. They stand to benefit from any increase unless an alternate comes up and that is a fact, not a conspiracy.
I did not say oil companies were the ones promoting hydrogen. Wouldn't be surprised, but made no such claim.
You can say the same thing about coal companies and BEVs. It's totally missing the point. The non-conspiracy version of events will find that all fossil fuel companies are terrified of green technology. None of them are actually supporting green technology beyond pushing a few side-projects.
You're implying that it is the case. That is still doing the same thing.
Because, again, this is a conspiracy theory. People have an issue with your quasi-climate change denial. People are "going to such lengths" because they think you are opposing progress and trying to sabotage solutions to climate change.
I will add that this is a fairly pessimistic projection. We will likely need a lot more for transportation and heavy industry. Especially once you account for economic growth in countries like India, Indonesia, all the African countries, etc.
You started off assuming "pro-BEV = good, pro-anything-else = evil oil conspiracy." There comes a point where you have to realize that the BEV is not a panacea, and in reality is a just a transitional idea. People need to accept the existence of newer ideas.
Right now Hydrogen generation is near as makes no difference all performed by burning fossil fuels, so it’s easy to see why oil companies would want to concentrate on this as a technology. Your posts are an eclectic mix of hydrogen related news and nothing else, which makes me wonder what your position is in this space?
Electricity, until recently, included nearly zero wind or solar energy. This type of accusation is pretty much identical to the accusation that BEVs are just an extension of coal power.
There is no secret agenda here. Hydrogen is just flat-out the green fuel of the future. BEV fanatics are just being upset that it is not their favored idea.
As a bit or a nerd and environmentalist, I’ve had solar panels for more than 20 years. My personal electrical consumption has been entirely renewable for all of that time, and many thousands of kWh have been fed back into the grid.
Compressed hydrogen or liquid hydrogen are simply not a realistic alternative to BEVs with any current or emerging technology.
Hydrogen may have a place in future, and I agree there is no panacea, but at the moment Hydrogen is an technology looking for a purpose.
My main question again… what is your skill set and position in renewables and the hydrogen industry? Just a fan or do you work in the sector?
If you are both a nerd and environmentalist, you’d also know people said the same thing about BEVs just a decade ago. You’re being closer to a Luddite than an actual nerd.
If you must know, I am a fan of hydrogen. But the issue is that you are not asking in good faith. It's mostly coming from the perspective of a closed-minded BEV fanatic who thinks only BEVs can exist in the future.
You couldn’t be further from the truth, I have a 24 year old diesel and my partner a 20year old petrol car. Our low yearly mileage means the energy it would take to recycle our cars and create new ones is not worth the switch right now.
As for the bad faith I just have a lot of knowledge about the current research into Hydrogen fuelled transport and while it may work for very large vehicles I don’t believe it’s practical or safe for cars in my lifetime.
I also know there is a greenwashing effort going into “eFuels” made with Hydrogen.
What is your main reason the prefer HEVs/FCEVs to BEVs?
The you must realize that BEVs carry too much of an upfront penalty to make sense. Clearly, you are sticking with ICE vehicles because of that.
Millions of people will never be in a position to own one either. No matter what you think, you will have to accept the existence of hydrogen cars for those people.
There is no real effort to push e-fuels or whatever as a way to maintain fossil fuels. It is way too expensive for that.
In the end, FCEVs will as cheap to own as ICE cars, and just as practical. It's pretty self evident that BEVs aren't competitive against that.
They do carry an upfront penalty, but offset that by being almost 100% recyclable. I can buy an 2nd hand electric car for less than I can sell my 24yr old truck, so they are cheap enough for most people now.
As the ICE stock is replaced by BEVs we’ll get to majority EVs in the next 10ish years. If the Hydrogen Hulx could replace mine I might get one, but I couldn’t fuel It around here or at home, so it’s not practical when compared to a BEV.
Hydrogen offers the same without the upfront penalty. You don't have to worry about recycling either, which BTW is likely a very energy-intensive process.
There will be a hydrogen refueling infrastructure everywhere soon. People simply aren't aware how much progress is being made here.
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