Why is Linux so frustrating for some people?

Don’t get me wrong. I love Linux and FOSS. I have been using and installing distros on my own since I was 12. Now that I’m working in tech-related positions, after the Reddit migration happened, etc. I recovered my interest in all the Linux environment. I use Ubuntu as my main operating system in my Desktop, but I always end up feeling very limited. There’s always software I can’t use properly (and not just Windows stuff), some stuff badly configured with weird error messages… last time I was not able to even use the apt command. Sometimes I lack time and energy for troubleshooting and sometimes I just fail at it.

I usually end up in need of redoing a fresh install until it breaks up again. Maybe Linux is not good for beginners working full time? Maybe we should do something like that Cisco course that teaches you the basic commands?

yote_zip,
@yote_zip@pawb.social avatar

I’ve been using Linux for so long that it’s hard for me to give an approximation of what a new user might find challenging, but I think that something important to remember is that computers are hard. I’ve spent my entire life studying computers and I’m still learning every day.

Most people grew up with Windows and learned how to use it over the years, but remember that it took years, and most of them still aren’t very good at it. Linux requires different knowledge than Windows, but it doesn’t inherently mean that it’s harder. If everyone grew up using Linux we wouldn’t hear about “how hard Linux is” but instead about “how hard Windows is”.

At least when something is broken in Linux, it probably has a cause (usually the user) and solution, and a way to debug what happened. When something breaks in Windows you’ve got about 3 things you can try before the solution is to reinstall.

As for solutions, I don’t know if there’s a certified pathway into Linux - I think installing something like Linux Mint and just using it like a computer would go a long way towards getting you comfortable with how Linux works without forcing you to study. Once you’re comfortable using the GUI, you can take a peek behind the scenes at your leisure - there is documentation everywhere for everything on Linux.

Nougat,

When something breaks in Windows you’ve got about 3 things you can try before the solution is to reinstall.

From the point of view of a lifetime Windows guy, I have to disagree with this. Unless you have a malware problem (where it can be exceedingly difficult for the average user to know whether they've gotten everything out), almost all failures of Windows in the modern age are the result of hardware failures. If your Windows 7 or newer computer blue screens, it's very likely a bad piece of hardware, occasionally a bad driver. The OS itself is quite solid.

... there is documentation everywhere for everything on Linux.

In my experience and perspective, I've found the documentation for Linux things to be of varying quality and usually for an audience who already knows their way around Linux. Admittedly, I haven't had to go looking in quite a while, so maybe that landscape is different today than I am aware of - but when I was looking, I found myself quite frustrated more often than not.

Finally, with Windows, if you really have to, you can pay for support incidents from Microsoft. They're not cheap, but I've found their server and server application support to be reliable. Is there something like that available to a Linux user?

yote_zip, (edited )
@yote_zip@pawb.social avatar

I don’t have a ton of experience with Windows lately, but from trying to troubleshoot family members’ PCs, it usually ends up being corrupted drivers or bricked bootloaders/failed updates.

As for documentation, the Arch wiki (and Gentoo wiki, Debian wiki, etc. etc.) is usually a good source of information for general topics, but there’s also decades of forums and stackexchange posts on various problems if you’re just using a search engine. Every program also has extensive official man pages on how to use them (example), and you can even use something like tldr to shorten the man pages into something usable right now (example). If you’re willing to read documentation, everything you use on Linux probably has a manual behind it.

With regards to paying for support, it’s not really my wheelhouse but to my understanding that’s what companies like Canonical, SUSE, and Red Hat offer.

RiikkaTheIcePrincess,
RiikkaTheIcePrincess avatar

| If your Windows 7 or newer computer blue screens, it's very likely a bad piece of hardware, occasionally a bad driver. The OS itself is quite solid.

Okay, really, though? Windows is solid and good because it doesn't kernel panic much? Who's getting kernel panics out of Linux without faulty hardware or doing something risky? I think you've equivocated a bit here: either we're comparing kernel to kernel or we're comparing userland to userland. You're comparing Windows itself to Linux userland or using some kernel even freakier than the weird patched-up stuff I like to play with.

I feel like discussion of this topic is plagued by double standards and shifting goalposts :-\ Apples to oranges comparisons, refusals to even consider things just because they're 'foreign,' blaming "Linux" for things that really aren't its fault (neither in the OS sense nor in the broader sense) ... including of course (sometimes) turning the discussion into an "us versus them" thing. Software on Linux has iffy documentation! ... But the same software exists on Windows, or the equivalent(s) is(/are) just as bad. Linux kernel documentation is scary or weird! ... But no one relevant is touching it anyway and wasn't touching Windows kernel anything either. The UI is different! Yeah, so's the new one on every version of Windows you get forced into. Casual Windowsers all hate it every time but somehow "Linux" is unusable because they won't learn a new UI unless Microsoft tells them to.

You can buy (a licence to, if MS likes you lots, borrow) a copy of Windows and apparently buy support for it too... yeah okay, but that's business, not a software issue. There are enterprise distros and software packages with all' that business-type support, unless they've all vanished? That's how that stuff works, no?

I'm not demanding anyone switch and distro hop over the course of months to find a distro they love but I'd really prefer to see some more fairness discussing the matter. "Linux" is never going to be "usable on desktop" if it's always just the enemy to be spurned and derided.

(Also, sorry this got so wordy. It's not meant as a diatribe, just I feel like there's a lot to say and I'm not saying much of it 🤷‍♀)
TLDR: It's unfair or outright dishonest to blame an apple for not being tart enough and hide that your actual standard is "is it an orange."

moon_matter, (edited )
moon_matter avatar

Windows auto-recovers from almost any issue the average user might encounter. It cannot be understated just how hard it is for an application or driver to break modern Windows. It goes much farther than just fixing a kernel panic. It will reset to a serviceable state for almost anything you can think of ( e.g. bad display settings, borked application install) and even in the worst situation will still give you some sort of GUI and try to walk you through the problem.

Linux sort of just gives up and lets you shoot yourself in the foot if you really ask it to. It's up to you to then figure out how to fix things and that usually involves diving into the terminal. But even ignoring that, a lot of Linux applications have a serious UI/UX problem. I cannot count how many applications just do things like throw a config file at you even for common tasks and expect you to read a doc page in order to figure it out. I have better things to do than read yet another wall of text just to do something simple like remapping key bindings (e.g. mpv). That would be an unthinkable thing to do to a Windows user.

Linux developers seem to want to develop software for other developers. Windows developers develop software for average people. The fragmentation of 1000s of Linux distros, each with their own quirks only make matters worse by further complicating where and how to get help.

dmrzl,

When Windows 3.1 came out I had a hard time understanding any of it and never left my cozy DOS CLI with its Norton Commander.

Granted I was still a child, but one might think that mouse-first and colorfulness would have driven my curiosity. Instead I switched when Windows 95 arrived.

moon_matter,
moon_matter avatar

I’ve been using Linux for so long that it’s hard for me to give an approximation of what a new user might find challenging

The average person would fail on step 0 of Installing the OS. In fact 90% of the problem could be attributed to Linux distros not coming preinstalled on PCs sitting in big box stores.

All of Linux's success stories for the average user (Android, Steam Deck, Chrome book) have one thing in common. They are low cost, simple, purpose built for very specific tasks with a bunch of exclusive games/software that people want to use. We need to start looking at PCs almost like they are highly moddable game consoles. It should come with the expectation that most users don't want to leave the comfort of the walled garden.

krellor,

For most people computers are just the same as cars. People want a car that will drive them from place to place, are easy to refuel, easy to operate, and can be taken to an expert for anything difficult or that requires specialized knowledge. Same for computers. Most people want a computer to navigate the web, install the apps they are used to and that their friends use, is easy to operate, and can be taken to an expert for any involved work.

Even the friendliest of Linux distro don't check all those boxes. You cant get ready support from a repair shop, many of the apps are different or function differently, and it doesn't receive all the same love and attention from major third party developers as Windows does.

Most people could learn to use Linux; it's not that hard. Most people could learn to change their own oil. But for most people, it's not worth it. For most people it's not the journey, it's the destination and cars and computers are just tools to get there.

voidMainVoid,

To use your car analogy, using Windows is like using a car that has the hood welded shut and can only be opened with a special key that only the auto manufacturer has.

You can’t repair it yourself. You can’t just take it to any expert to get it fixed. Only the manufacturer can fix it, because the source code (or car hood) is closed.

Kushan,
@Kushan@lemmy.world avatar

That’s not really a fair analogy, Windows isn’t that locked down. It’s more like the hood is open and for general maintenance you’re fine, but all the parts are proprietary so if something breaks, you can only go to one manufacturer who controls the entire supply chain for that part. However, the parts are generally okay quality so for most people who just drive A to B, they’re unlikely to encounter too many issues.

Linux is a kit car. You can pretty much build it yourself or have one preassembled but either way you can rip any part of it out and replace any component with anything you like, entirely within your control. Most people wouldn’t have the competency to build one themselves because most people don’t really know how cars work but for those that do, it’s the dream.

I genuinely don’t believe that one approach is better than another, but I do believe that the majority of folks out there want something that “just works” and Linux is usually not that option. Not on the desktop.

voidMainVoid,

What about Ubuntu? Pop OS?

Most of the distros I’ve tried “just work”. It connects to my wifi, I can go on websites, I can read my email. What are you trying to do that isn’t working?

WalrusDragonOnABike,

It's been more than a couple years since Ive tried using Linux (back when I used it as my primary os).

My experience have been mostly with ubuntu-based OSes like Mint. First laptop I installed Linux on, the audio didn't just work. It didn't work at all for a while, despite trying many fixes. Otherwise it actually did work decently well. On my next laptop, it would just one day no longer boot or login for some reason or another and I'd just have to do a clean install because I didn't know how to fix it. That happened maybe every other month? On both laptops, the two-finger scroll behavior had settings to change how it behaved in the default installed software, but on Linux it was always finicky getting it to work the way I wanted.

Also installing things is a lot more annoying for stuff that require command line vs just clicking it and telling it to install.

Bandicoot_Academic,

You are pretty lucky if you haven’t experienced any issues. For most people thogh spots are gonna be:

  1. Gaming. While a lot of games work perfectly a lot also don’t work (mainly if they have a kernel level anticheat rootkit)
  2. Nvidia. Do i have to say any more?
  3. Wifi. Often wifi cards just don’t work or work very poorly.
  4. Laptop specific features. Stuff like a MUX switch, ambient light sensors and fingerprint scanners very often have no drivers for linux.
moon_matter,
moon_matter avatar

We need the equivalent of what Android is for phones, but for the desktop. A preinstalled, very opinionated OS that completely eliminates issues 2-4 and is supported by a major corp. We need someone like Valve to take things a tiny step beyond some combination of a Chrome book and the Steam Deck.

techviator,
techviator avatar

Dell had a Linux line some years ago where everything worked out of the box, never got the popularity needed to keep it alive.

System76 has Pop!_OS so that they can provide great out of the box experience with their computers, but they are not as big as other vendors.

A good way to really get a product like that to mass market is to make it available in general stores (Walmart, Best Buy, Etc.), the problem is that most of those customers will not understand why their system is so different and they cannot install that MS Office 2003 they have always used, or that Norton Antivirus that their cousin's son recommended to them 10 years ago that was working fine on their old computer.

And then you have the younger generations that use every other device but a computer. They'd rather do all their school and college work on their phones and tablets rather than open a laptop, if they even know how to use a computer (you'd be surprised how many don't even know how to use a computer).

moon_matter,
moon_matter avatar

I hate myself for saying this, but the only way forward is to treat PCs like a highly moddable console. They need to come with some "exclusive" software that only makes its way to other platforms at a later date. They also need to be built for a specific purpose (e.g. media centre, gaming) with the expectation that most people won't want to leave the comfort zone.

odium,

To expand on this metaphor:

Windows and Macs are like automatic cars, for all the people who just use it to get to a destination, it’s the obvious and easiest option.

However, some people want manuals. Maybe they want it to race in the car (coding, resource intensive tasks, speed of computer, etc.). Maybe they just like the feel of a manual. Maybe they want to be able to control when the gears change more. Maybe they want to optimize the car for just one purpose. There are many reasons people might want a manual instead.

argv_minus_one, (edited )

Honestly, I wouldn’t mind being more knowledgeable about cars. I’m just afraid to touch anything, because I figure I’ll break it and incur a massive bill to replace whatever part I broke. PC operating systems carry no such risk; you can give up on whatever you’re trying and reinstall your old OS at any time without paying anyone anything.

Even PC hardware isn’t that risky to tinker with. It’s an order of magnitude cheaper than a car; lots of people have old, obsolete, but perfectly functional PCs lying around that they’d like taken off their hands; most components are within easy reach; and the component that isn’t within easy reach (the power supply unit) is pretty tough to break.

SexualPolytope, (edited )
@SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

I’ve been exclusively using Linux for almost a decade now. I started in high school when the computer we had at home was painfully slow with Windows. At start, it did seem a bit hard to wrap my head around. I was a kid, and there was no one who used Linux to teach me. I guess the installation etc. are much simpler nowadays. And the online spaces are much less toxic.

Even after all that, the main reason, I believe, is that it’s different. If someone is using a stable distro like Debian, and just wants to do what 90% of people do (i.e. browsing, looking at documents media etc.), Linux isn’t really a hassle. The installation process might be daunting to some people. But after that, they don’t need to open a terminal ever if they don’t want to. My sister is basically tech illiterate, and she’s been running Mint for a few years now. Never heard any complaints. Only issue she had was when she deleted her .config folder. But I had set up a script that backed up dotfiles to her external drive, so it was easily fixable.

People get frustrated because whenever something happens on Linux, and they go online, they see all these walls of text that they need to read, and commands they need to run. But they forget that on Windows and Macs, that isn’t even an option. Most of the time, you need to reset your system. Or, in the case of Macs, get it replaced. The frustration that people experience is caused by conditioning. They accept the inconveniences of Windows and Macs because they grew up with it. But since Linux is new to them, the shortcomings stick out much more.

TL;DR: For the average user, the OS doesn’t matter (they should probably still use Linux for increased privacy). For the power user, unless some specific applications they need are missing, Linux is always the best choice. The frustration is mostly due to conditioning.

shapis,
@shapis@lemmy.ml avatar

If someone is using a stable distro like Debian, and just wants to do what 90% of people do (i.e. browsing, looking at documents media etc.), Linux isn’t really a hassle.

I see this point repeated a lot, it’s just not true.

For example sudo apt upgrade is broken currently on the debian live images.

Imagine you tell someone “if you want stable, go debian” they hear it and install it and literally first apt update upgrade it’s borked.

There isnt a distro that isnt a hassle, that doesnt exist.

amanneedsamaid,

Why is that an issue for a desktop user?

shapis,
@shapis@lemmy.ml avatar

Because you can’t update your system at all. How’s that not a problem?

amanneedsamaid,

… from a live environment. Thats not a problem because almost no one does that, and certainly not a problem because no one relies on updating a live environment for their desktop usage.

shapis,
@shapis@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s not it. If you install on your hardware with the live image. Apt upgrade is broken. On your hardware. Not on the live image.

amanneedsamaid,

Ah, well that is a serious issue! I’ve never experienced a bug even close to that bad on distros with a reputation of being less stable than Debian, so that surprises me.

Audacity9961,

Why would you be running apt upgrade on live images?

shapis,
@shapis@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m confused about this question.

If you install debian through the live image. The apt upgrade of your installation will come out of the box broken.

priapus,

I haven’t seen anyone mention this problem, and I’ve recently installed Debian and didn’t have this problem.

shapis,
@shapis@lemmy.ml avatar

I linked it elsewhere. It’s a problem if you install from the live image. If you want I could find the link again for ya.

priapus,

I ended up finding it after replying. Definitely an unfortunate issue, but the replies say it is fixed and the updated ISO will not have it.

magnetosphere,
magnetosphere avatar

The sky-high barrier to entry was a MAJOR problem for me.

When I was seriously considering installing Linux, the first issue I ran into was the lack of tutorials - or, more accurately, the bewildering array of tutorials. You couldn’t just search the term “Linux tutorial” and expect an answer that was specific enough to your case to actually be useful. There was (and is) a wide variety of distributions, each with their own unique behaviors and requirements.

If you were looking for help with the Windows or Mac OS, all you needed was the OS version number, plus maybe some basic hardware info, and most of the time you were good. With Linux, answering even the simplest question required a focused, concentrated effort, and there was still a decent chance a beginner wouldn’t have enough background knowledge to understand the answer. Generally speaking, beginner-friendly tutorials were often too broad to be useful, and specific tutorials tended to assume knowledge that a beginner didn’t have.

Unless you had someone standing by who was willing to be your Linux Yoda, starting out was very difficult. I didn’t know such a person, so I just gave up.

Granted, this was several years ago, and things may have changed. I’m speaking from my own limited experience.

kyub, (edited )
  1. False promises early on

We desktop Linux users are partly to blame for this. In ~1998 there was massive hype and media attention towards Linux being this viable alternative to Windows on the desktop. A lot of magazines and websites claimed that. Well, in 1998 I can safely say that Linux could be seen as an alternative, but not a mainstream compatible one. 25 years later, it’s much easier to argue that it is, because it truly is easy to use nowadays, but back then, it certainly wasn’t yet. The sad thing is, that we Linux users kind of caused a lot of people to think negatively about desktop Linux, just because we tried pushing them towards it too early on. A common problem in tech I think, where tech which isn’t quite ready yet is being hyped as ready. Which leads to the second point:

  1. FUD / lack of information / lack of access to good, up to date information

People see low adoption rates, hear about “problems” or think it’s a “toy for nerds”, or still have an outdated view on desktop Linux. These things stick, and probably also cause people to think "oh yeah I’ve heard about that, it’s probably nothing for me"

  1. Preinstallations / OEM partnerships

MS has a huge advantage here, and a lot of the like really casual ordinary users out there will just use whatever comes preinstalled on their devices, which is in almost 100% of all cases Windows.

  1. Schools / education

They still sometimes or even often(?) teach MS product usage, to “better prepare the students for their later work life where they almost certainly use ‘industry standard’ software like MS Office”. This gets them used to the combo MS Windows+Office at an early age. A massive problem, and a huge failure of the education system to not be neutral in that regard.

  1. Hardware and software devs ALWAYS ensure that their stuff is compatible with Windows due to its market share, but don’t often ensure this for Linux, and whether 3rd party drivers are 100% feature complete or even working at all, is not sure

So you still need to be a bit careful about what you use (hardware & software) on Linux, while for Windows it’s pretty much “turn your brain off, pick anything, it’ll work”. Just a problem of adoption rate though, as Linux grew, its compatibility grew as well, so this problem decreased by a lot already, but of course until everything will also automatically work on Linux, and until most devs will port their stuff to Linux as well as Windows and OS X, it will still need even more market share for desktop Linux. Since this is a known chicken-egg-effect (Linux has low adoption because software isn’t available, but for software to become available, Linux marketshare needs to grow), we need to do it anyway, just to get out of that “dilemma”. Just like Valve did when they said one day “ok f*ck this, we might have problems for our main business model when Microsoft becomes a direct competitor to Steam, so we must push towards neutral technologies, which is Linux”. And then they did, and it worked out well for them, and the Linux community as a whole benefited from this due to having more choice now on which platforms their stuff can run. Even if we’re talking about a proprietary application here, it’s still a big milestone when you can run so many more applications/games suddenly on Linux, than before, and it drives adoption rates higher as well. So there you have a company who just did it, despite market share dictating that they shouldn’t have done that. More companies need to follow, because that will also automatically increase desktop Linux marketshare, and this is all inter-connected. More marketshare, more devs, more compatibility, more apps available, and so on. Just start doing it, goddamnit. Staying on Windows means supporting the status quo and not helping to make any positive progress.

  1. Either the general public needs to become more familiar with CLI usage (I’d prefer that), or Linux desktop applications need to become more feature-complete so that almost everything a regular user needs can be done via GUI as well

This is still not the case yet, but it’s gotten better. Generally speaking: If you’re afraid of the CLI, Linux is not something for you probably. But you shouldn’t be afraid of it. You also aren’t afraid of chat prompts. Most commands are easy to understand.

  1. The amount of choice the user is confronted with (multiple distros, desktop environments, and so on) can lead to option paralysis

So people think they either have to research each option (extra effort required), or are likely to “choose wrong”, and then don’t choose at all. This is just an education issue though. People need to realize that this choice isn’t bad, but actually good, and a consequence of an open environment where multiple projects “compete” for the same spot. Often, there are only a few viable options anyway. So it’s not like you have to check out a lot. But we have to make sure that potential new users know which options are a great starting point for them, and not have them get lost in researching some niche distros/projects which they shouldn’t start out with generally.

  1. “Convenience is a drug”

Which means a lot of people, even smart ones, will not care about any negatives as long as the stuff they’re using works without any perceived user-relevant issues. Which means: they’ll continue to use Windows even after it comes bundled with spyware, because they value the stuff “working” more than things like user control/agency, privacy, security and other more abstract things. This is problematic, because they position themselves in an absolute dependency where they can’t get out of anymore and where all sorts of data about their work, private life, behavior, and so on is being leaked to external 3rd parties. This also presents a high barrier of convincing them to start becoming more technically independent: why should they make an effort to switch away from something that works in their eyes? This is a huge problem. It’s the same with Twitter/X or Reddit, not enough people switch away from those, even though it’s easy to do nowadays. Even after so much negative press lately most still stick around. It’s so hard to get the general population moving to something better once they’ve kind of stuck with one thing already. But thankfully, at least on Windows, the process of “enshittification” (forced spyware, bloatware, adware, cloud integrations, MS accounts) continues at a fast pace, which means many users won’t need to be convinced to use Linux, but rather they will at some point be annoyed by Windows/Microsoft itself. Linux becoming easier to use and Windows becoming more annoying and user-hostile at the same time will thankfully accelerate the “organic” Linux growth process, but it’ll still take a couple of years.

  1. “Peer pressure” / feeling of being left alone

As a desktop Linux user, chances are high that you’re an “outsider” among your peers who probably use Windows. Not everyone can feel comfortable in such a role over a longer period of time. Just a matter of market share, again, but still can pose a psychological issue maybe in some cases. Or it can lead to peer pressure, like when some Windows game or something isn’t working fully for the Linux guy, that there will be peer pressure to move to Windows just to get that one working. As one example.

  1. Following the hype of new software releases and thinking that you always need the most features or that you need the “industry standard” when you don’t really need it.

A lot of users probably prefer something like MS Office with its massive feature set and “industry standard” label over the libre/free office suites. Because something that has less features could be interpreted as being worse. But here it’s important to educate such users that it really only matters whether all features they NEED are present. And if so, it wouldn’t matter for them which they use. MS Office for example has a multi-year lead in development (it was already dominating the office suite market world-wide when Linux was still being born so to say) so of course it has more features accumulated over this long time, but most users actually don’t need them. Sure, everyone uses a different subset of features, but it’s at least likely that the libre office suites contain everything most users need. So it’s just about getting used to them. Which is also hard, to make a switch, to change your workflows, etc., so it would be better if MS Office could work on Linux so that people could at least be able to continue to use that even though it’s not recommended to do so (proprietary, spyware, MS cloud integrations). But since I’m all for having more options, it would at least be better in general for it to be available as well. But until that happens, we need to tell potential new users that they probably can also live with the alternatives just fine.

joel_feila,
@joel_feila@lemmy.world avatar

Well lets look at what i did to switch to linux. It was about 2 years ago and I was still using windows 8 since I didn’t all the spyware in my operating system. I went with linux mint first since it was stated to be super new user friendly. I was so new to linux that I had to ask what neofetch was and how to use it. It was easy to use but I mostly just use web browser, steam, and libre office, which I had been useing libre office for years before that. Linux mint made a very frictionless new user experience. But I still needed that motive to move onto to something now. For me that breaking point was windows just having so must spyware in the os. Rather then using windows 10 or 11 I held onto window to windows 8 and then moved onto linux mint.

Synthead,

I’ll challenge your point with an analogous question:

Why can’t everybody speak French?

TheButtonJustSpins,

Because you have to know a bunch of extra letters to make basic sounds.

Underwaterbob,

I started using Ubuntu at work with version 18.00. It worked without a hitch. Then, it updated to 20.00, and printing broke. I tried multiple “solutions” and none of them worked for my case. For literal years, I had to go to the front desk and print my shit there on the Mac which always printed without issue. Thankfully, in my case I don’t print that much so it wasn’t a huge problem, but I know for some that would be a complete deal breaker.

Cue version 22.00, and printing works again, albeit not always. My jobs get canceled periodically for no reason I can ascertain.

I had similar issues back in the mid-00s with a laptop I was trying to run Ubuntu 6.00 on. It mostly worked, but the webcam and trackpad were a lost cause to someone of my moderate abilities.

It’s shit like this that hold Linux back. I’ve been running some form of Windows since 95, and I’ve never had unsolvable hardware problems with it.

ocassionallyaduck,

I’m a lifelong windows power user, and above average even in my industry for knowledge on technical expertise.

Nothing I know translates to Linux. Not the file structures, the commands, the permissions, the file systems.

You truly have to commit to learning an entirely parallel form of computing environment to become comfortable in Linux. And being frank, it is the most customizable and unique user experience out there, but it is also infinitely less user friendly. And for every time a 2 line terminal command fixes a problem and saves time compared with windows, there are dozens of instances where time is wasted for hours learning that command, its exact syntax and usage, and if it is the one you need for your circumstance.

Another user here recently said that it was when they were going through and compiling their own drivers to make their Webcam work and having to follow guides to make system specific tweaks that they just quit and went back to Windows for ease of use.

Linux is the OS of power users. Not even power users like me, but extreme power users who either have the time or training to learn that parallel system. All of which is easy if this is your job, but in many ways you are learning a second language of sorts.

squaresinger,

I think you are right, but I also think it’s a bit more in the relearning side than on the “Linux is hard” side.

I also spent most of my time working on Windows. When I started to work with Linux, like the OP I spent many years with in the “use it until I mess something up and then reinstall because I can’t fix it” loop. But after a few years I really got into it. I haven’t done a misconfiguration related reinstall in many years.

But if you put me in front of a Mac, I wouldn’t even know how to copy/paste text.

megane_kun,

But if you put me in front of a Mac, I wouldn’t even know how to copy/paste text.

I’ve had to troubleshoot router problems for a neighbor who uses Mac, and man was it a confusing experience. The UX is obviously Mac, so I’ve had trouble with it. But when I got to the command-line, it almost broke me. Why I was even in the command-line in the first place? I don’t even know! But it’s a confusing mix of familiar (from daily-driving Linux), and unfamiliar (different Mac-specific commands and syntax).

Someone else could probably point out what I’ve done wrong, but it still doesn’t make it not a confusing experience. It’s humbling, and the kids who’ve hung around me watching me try to fix their computer were even giving me tips (mostly on how to navigate the UI, helping me where to find the settings, etc).

squaresinger,

Yeah, goes to show that one doesn’t know/learn “computers” but OS specific stuff.

I don’t know “computers”, I know Windows and Debian-like Linux.

cyberian_khatru,
cyberian_khatru avatar

yup, this hits the nail on the head for me. I consider myself very tech literate; I am my family's IT guy. I even have Mint installed in a separate drive but I seldom use it unless I have nothing else to do for an afternoon. And the reason is that the more I know about windows (be it editing the registry, troubleshooting services, learning diagnostics tools...) the less comparatively capable I feel in a linux environment. It's like moving countries after I spent my whole life learning this city and I could't even speak my native language anymore. Yeah I know it works out of the box and there's wine and I can make my UX the same. But, going back to my metaphor, that feels like moving to a different country and just not leaving my house and only talking to the people I knew back home. Yeah it would be the same if I severely constrict my comfort zone. You just have to learn a bunch of new shit and leave all you know behind and that's just one distro. Because YEAH linux isn't an OS it's a whole family of operating systems. The nerd yelling that it's a kernel is right in the worst way possible. I can learn Mint but I can form an opinion on Linux because I still wouldn't know shit about Arch or Fedora or Gentoo or what-have-you. It's all very daunting and what I have is functional. No, not "functional enough". This does literally everything I want in less than 4 clicks, everything is plug-and-play, everything works out of the box (and if it doesn't you're sure as shit it wouldn't work out of the box on linux), my knowledge on windows is applicable on every machine I find, it's the system everyone expects me to have (I'm fucking sure the software my uni made me install for online tests wouldn't have a Linux installer). It's not just that the path of least resistance points to mac/windows, Linux as a whole also has very potent repelling field. I still want to learn it but not because I see any practical value/utility in it.

PseudoSpock,

Pretty simple, really. Buy a console for gaming, or a separate machine for gaming. I don’t game, the joy of that died with the loss of lan parties and Tribes II.

Choose a system, make it your daily driver for work and home, and you will form the habits and muscle memory. Don’t and it will remain a struggle to some degree or another.

bankimu,

I’m not sure why you say that. I’ve been using Arch to play triple A games (Control, Diablo 4, Elden Ring, Death Stranding, etc.) with NVidia GPU even (which is known to have proprietary driver and not as tweakable). Never had a single glitch, everything runs like native.

PseudoSpock,

My experimentation with gaming using Steam had gone just fine, as well. But I hear it all the time, that Linux and gaming have issues. My response to them is pretty much that I don’t care. I don’t use Linux for gaming. Gaming isn’t my thing. To me, gamers and their needs are completely unimportant, as the pass time is just a waste.

h14h,

Most of the comments here are talking about the x% of time Linux gets messed up it can be really intimidating for new users and getting the right help can be a challenge, or simply more time than it’s worth.

I think this is true, but I think there’s another thing that irks people:

Software Compatibility

The general public primarily interacts with their computers through established applications that commonly aren’t available on Linux w/o intimidating work around (if at all).

A noob who switches to Linux isn’t going to know the limitations up front, and the second they decide they want to learn Adobe Premier for work, they’re kinda fucked. They’ll either spend hours/days of online research trying to figure out if it’s even possible, or they’ll ask for help only to have someone tell them they’re wrong for trying and to use some FOSS alternative because Adobe is an evil megacorp.

It’s a recipe for frustration.

megane_kun,

That last part is my experience when I tried installing a “non-supported printer” for my computer. I wanted to hook up into a computer my brother bought, and ended up in the printer model’s manufacturer’s page and having to choose between an Ubuntu driver and a Debian one. I use neither.

I eventually found my way to the AUR repository (because btw, I used Manjaro at the time—go figure what’s wrong in this scenario, lol!) and even ended up on some random repos for similar models. There were a lot of conflicting advice: like using a driver for a similar printer, or making my own package for my printer model.

I ended up deciding that I somehow have to make a package for my printer model, and having asked around for advice on how to do this, I was met with “why even brother with that printer brand?!” And I was like, “because that’s what’s available to me! And I don’t have enough money to buy a different one! I just want this to work!!”

squaresinger,

The last part is a real issue. You can pretty much guarantee, that whenever you ask for help/talk about issues with Linux anywhere online, some helpful Linux zealot will be there to tell you what an idiot you are for having issues with Linux. Most of the time, these guys have been running Ubuntu off a Life USB stick for a week or two so far.

TheQuantumPhysicist,

The Linux community doesn’t understand what “just works” really means.

Whether windows or mac, I plug my machine to the docking station, and it just works.

With Linux, every day a different problem. Out of the blue, screens just stop working. Resolutions change. Every restart different behavior. Zero consistency.

I’m not 17 anymore… I don’t have the time to keep tweaking. I need to be productive.

So what do I do? I SSH to a Linux machine whose desktop environment I don’t wanna see, and code remotely. Most productive setting.

You asked. Here’s the answer.

RassilonianLegate,
@RassilonianLegate@mstdn.social avatar

@TheQuantumPhysicist
@leninmummy
This is another one of those things I've heard about but not experienced, I use my computer every day and haven't had any issues in over a year at this point

squaresinger,

Well, bugs don’t spread evenly. Depending on your hardware, the software you run and your use cases, you might have no issues or really bad issues.

BOB_DROP_TABLES,

Try using screens with different resolutions at the same time. Always gave me trouble. In my case was always using a horizontal one and a vertical one together. I’ve had framerate problems, tearing, artefacts (parts of the vertical screen wouldn’t update while the other 2 worked fine). From time to time, X will forget my monitor configuration too after a reboot / unplugging the dock / waking from sleep. All that with 2 laptops from different brands using different docstations, one with XFCE on Ubuntu and the other with KDE on Arch. I got it mostly working, but it’s still troublesome

rocketeer8015,

That 40 year old X protocol might be the issue here, use wayland for multi monitor with different resolutions.

BOB_DROP_TABLES,

Yup, I suspect that is indeed the issue. Haven’t tried KDE in wayland yet as I’ve seen some people saying it’s still a bit rough. Will give it a try anyway. May give sway another shot too

joel_feila,
@joel_feila@lemmy.world avatar

you hit the nail on the head. When I first got into linux I was watching some youtube video about I think the pine phone and the person basically came to the realization, and you can see the sadness on his face, that people want their computer to work like an kitchen appliance. Plug it in, press button, it does it thing. No need to learn about how it works.

joey,

@deleted

I guess they’re linking the same repo. However they talk about their positive experience with linux on surface pro

https://lemm.ee/post/1451648

Edit: someone mentioned that nobara has the patches incorporated in their release. Might be worth checking out

deleted,

I installed linux-surface from github and gnome 43. everything now works.

joey,

Glad you got it working!

tehcpengsiudai,

Because clicking a button, finding out it works sometimes but not for you, then the top 3 google links might have a solution to parts of your problem, and you’ll have to type in commands to run stuff you probably ran less than 20 times in your entire lifetime, kinda sucks. Even if you try to learn what actually went on, you’d need to do mental gymnastics.

Having multiple buttons to click and have what you want done almost all the time is much easier in comparison.

Source: was once a beginner, although it does get easier.

denissimo,

This is like asking why manual or automatic is frustrating. You mostly use the thing you have grown up with and that’s it, particularly when you got bills to pay and there isn’t much free time unfortunately. If you put it into perspective, a massive amount of users already hold Linux in their hands and everyday life: Android. Nah let’s get back to computers.

IT class back in college taught a wee bit of Linux. I was one of the few who were interested and did what the teacher said, the rest played Hearthstone. Linux Mint is what intrigued me since high school. A wonderful OS that brings life to laptops too slow for Windows 7. But I’m still the cozy and unbothered person who sticks to Windows on their main machine. I just want to relax after a good days work and play Forza Horizon 5. However I do enjoy my Linux laptops that won’t run red hot just because of Windows Update, Defender, telemetry and other garbage. My love&hate about Linux is that there are so many distros to choose from. There were times when x is better than y and it was(still is) the devils circle: distro hopping. Today I’m cool with Ubuntu derivatives like Mint and Pop, along with Fedora and Suse, since a decade of having at least one Linux PC I still don’t find joy in advanced stuff like Arch. Anyway use the thing you are comfy with and don’t let anyone judge you, live your life. <3

Ew0,

Some of us like it to work, some of us like to make it work :)

squaresinger,

The zoo of system software on Linux is a real issue.

For Windows, if you are the local family admin, if someone asks you how to solve some issue, there are only two possible (and quite similar) options (Win10 and 11). You can either point them to the right location in the settings if you know it by heart, or you just fire up your PC and tell them each step.

If it’s Linux, you first start with the question “What distro are you using?” and then they answer something you maybe have never heard.

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