Sex hormones are powerful. Running through everybody's blood. Creating massive aggression, obsession and mental disturbance. What if we could remove their mental influence?

I’m talking about the fight/fuck/dominate hormones. Testosterone, estrogen. The reason why putting a pretty girl in an advertisement works so well. And it might explain a lot of aggression too.

Take them out of the equation and that’s 99% of politics, advertising and popular music gone.

So what would that look like for society?

Would it be Star Trek? Would it be a dystopia?

What about the individual??

Flat effect no ambition misery? Or creative powerhouse and visionary?

Give me your speculations.

PrinceWith999Enemies,

I’m assuming you don’t mean people abusing steroids, but hormones, period (no pun intended), because you say they’re used by everybody.

So, okay. I’m a biologist and I’m not sure how to answer this question except to say that we wouldn’t exist. By “we” I pretty much mean life on earth as we know it.

Let’s start with Wikipedia:

A hormone (from the Greek participle ὁρμῶν, “setting in motion”) is a class of signaling molecules in multicellular organisms that are sent to distant organs by complex biological processes to regulate physiology and behavior.[1] Hormones are required for the correct development of animals, plants and fungi.

A hormone is not a drug.

A drug is any chemical substance that when consumed causes a change in an organism’s physiology, including its psychology, if applicable.[1][2][vague] Drugs are typically distinguished from food and other substances that provide nutritional support

You can take hormones as drugs, but drugs are things that are consumed. Hormones produced within your body are part of and necessary to maintaining your life from before you are a you until the day you die. They regulate your metabolism. They’re directly responsible for keeping your body alive and in sync with the environment. They’re everywhere - animals, plants, and fungi.

So, no, please don’t get rid of hormones. We’re using them.

Now, diseases and disorders caused by hormonal dysfunction are a different story. Those, hopefully, can be treated medically or with therapy. That’s a different question, though.

cameron_vale,

I meant sex hormones. Creating this powerful mental influence, coloring how we see and think. Urges to fight and fuck. Aggression. Obsession. All that.

I guess I wasn’t as clear as I thought.

(In my title, I’m trying to be clear yet succinct. Stick to terms everybody can understand. Deliver it all inside 50 characters or whatever the limit is because everybody skips the text. So I’m honing that craft)

Poggervania,
Poggervania avatar

Me, a misanthrope: “so you’re saying we should definitely get rid of hormones”

Sheeple,
@Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

Time to report any transphobic comments made here and block them 🤣

Seriously it’s like some of the people coming here can’t help it

agent_flounder,
@agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

I think your question is based on an incorrect assumption that testosterone directly and solely causes aggression and other effects. I did a very cursory search for some research papers on the topic that immediately suggest things are nowhere near that simple.

Based on that, if you further tamped down any effects hormones have on human behavior and psychology, I think what would happen is that the many other environmental and genetic factors that cause anti social aggression, obsession, libido, etc., would continue to cause nearly as many problems as they already do.

If you want a better world then I personally think we need to work on eliminating childhood neglect and abuse and improving the emotional / mental health of parents (and, really, everyone).

cameron_vale,

One example of the power of sex hormones : our obsession with titties (and related sexy stuff). A huge amount of popular music and advertising treats that obsession as its foundational strength. A glance of nipple is like lightning. A bared breast becomes the talk of the town. Porn is massive. Why? Because our sex hormones told us to think that way. Whole multibilliondollar industries depend on it. My mind reprogrammed. My aesthetics turned.

I don’t know about you, but I find the idea that my mind has been manipulated like that to be concerning.

And then when it’s an entire population being affected like that. It’s huge. Like beyond the internet scale huge.

uphillbothways,
uphillbothways avatar

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/the-smell-of-newborn-babies-triggers-the-same-reward-centers-as-drugs-58482/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3029708/

Also, baby smells get you high and promote warlike behavior and ethnocentrism. Don't forget those.

cameron_vale,

Woah, I didn’t know that. Ya I definitely don’t want that stuff running around in my head.

Have you heard the one about St Augustine?

Nougat,

What about the individual??

Flat effect no ambition misery? Or creative powerhouse and visionary?

Personal experience: I spent my entire youth and a large portion of my adulthood being amazingly preoccupied with sex, and with a fair amount of aggression towards everyone and everything.

Between testiulcar cancer, many consistent years of antidepressants, and just being old, I am finally feeling relief from those. I don't claim to be a "creative powerhouse and visionary" by any stretch, but I am far from having a flat affect, I'm no more or less ambitious than I was before, and I am decidedly less miserable.

In hindsight, I can see that libido and aggression have always been an obstacle to my reaching my potential. Having built some bad habits over decades, they still are. None of us get to accomplish everything we want, so I'm trying not to fret about it too much.

Overall, as an individual whose life experience has changed from one extreme to the other - whether hormones have anything to do with it or not - I much prefer the current stage in my life to the former.

cameron_vale,

I think that St Augustine cut off his balls. Puberty was coming on. He didn’t like what it was doing to his clarity of mind. So he grabbed the scissors.

He was an impressive guy.

Born 1700 years ago. He adapted Classical thought to Christian teaching and created a powerful theological system of lasting influence. He also shaped the practice of biblical exegesis and helped lay the foundation for much of medieval and modern Christian thought.

So there’s one argument for. If he was born today he might have written a nice video game.

cameron_vale,

The influence of these hormones, it could be likened to being drunk all the time. But everybody’s drunk, so it’s normal.

Maybe later generations will invent a switch or a therapy.

AnonTwo,

...Nobody would exist, those hormones are what allowed humanity to survive and reproduce long enough to ask this question.

As crude as those things are when you look at the worst parts of humanity, they're necessary.

cameron_vale, (edited )

Well now that we’ve survived long enough. What if we did it today? What if we removed the aggression and the fixation on titties and the rest. Just extracted the whole mental influence there.

AnonTwo,

We'd die out. It's clearly a question that's hyperfocused on the worst aspects of it.

cameron_vale, (edited )

We successfully complete many projects that arguably have nothing to do with our hormonal fight/fuck imperative.

Why do you think that the “maintaining the population” project would be different?

AnonTwo,

Because those hormones are also involved with making people want to do those things. Just because you associate them specifically with fight/fuck doesn't mean thats all they do. "humanity" is heavily tied to those hormones.

Like i've been stressing for this entire discussion you're hyperfocused on two things for a subject that is far more multifaceted than that.

cameron_vale,

Yes, “humanity” is heavily tied to those hormones. And humanity is also motivated by much other than those hormones. So to conclude that without hormonal influences we would necessarily abandon important projects like “keeping the population maintained” seems rather hasty.

So let’s consider some more interesting results than “we would all just die”. Because no doubt they exist.

Come on, exercise your speculation muscles.

AnonTwo,

Maybe you could exercise your speculation muscles?? You made a discussion where you clearly just want people to say "Sex bad, fight bad" because you want to ignore all the other things the hormones you wanted to discuss do.

Like it's hard to discuss from the aspect of hormones when we're constantly hyperspecifying until we get to the specific part of them that you care about.

HeartyBeast,
HeartyBeast avatar

Here's a handy list of hormones produced by the body: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_hormones

Look at the list of affects in the right hand column. I doubt most of us would form into viable embryos beyond a few weeks, let alone form a society.

cameron_vale,

There’s a whole block of text there in my op that I think you skipped

ristoril_zip,

The problem honestly is your concept of hormones is incomplete. There are no hormones that only do one thing. They might have a primary function. But they all have secondary and tertiary functions. They all regulate other hormones. Evolution doesn’t do single functions.

If you knock down a “fight” hormone you’re probably going to mess up the homeostasis of the body in other ways. You can probably “fix” that artificially, but you’ll be constantly chasing the next side effect. Humans are chemical Rube Goldberg machines of infinite order. Disrupt one thing and it all goes out of whack.

cameron_vale,

Then go with “freedom fom the mind-altering influences”. What would that look like?

Alto,
Alto avatar

That doesn't exist, considering things as basic as hungry is a mind-altering influence

cameron_vale,

There was a whole explanatory block of text after the title that you missed.

I’m referring to the big famous mind-altering hormones. Testosterone, estrogen. The fighting and fucking urge that shapes 99% of politics, advertising and popular music.

sincle354,

Intro thoughts, feel free to skip to next paragraph: What you're basically suggesting (based off edit) is the massive and unrelenting attack on our more base urges. My boyfriend says this is "peripheral route persuasion", and it includes sex appeal and also things like happy people drinking Coke. Indeed advertising almost exclusively uses these tactics to get you to buy something (or at least remember) within 30 seconds or less.

But I think you're getting at the main core of human interaction, where the natural order of people is to act based off of emotion and not really think about it. Alternately, you can put your mind into big-brain thinking mode and make a salient choice to not drink brown spiced lemon fizzy sugar water.

The Elaboration Likelihood Model essentially assumes that "As motivation and/or ability to process arguments is decreased, peripheral cues become relatively more important determinants of persuasion. Conversely, as argument scrutiny is increased, peripheral cues become relatively less important determinants of persuasion." These peripheral cues can be hormone based, for example. Therefore, it suggests a central route of information processing (think hard about it), and a peripheral route of information processing (gut feeling).

This is any information, not just persuasion. You see hot girl on street, you consider your car looks cool, you try to pick her up by using your*(edit) car as evidence to hop in.

Btw, in the Wikipedia article they literally spell out the consequences of this theory in Politics, Advertising and Media (all of it).

cameron_vale,

Imagine a society made up of eight-year-olds. Gentle, un-aggressive. Couldn’t care less about titties. Incredible clarity of mind.

There would still be art and science. Soccer and carpentry would still be fun.

We just wouldn’t have that little pseudococaine gland squirting into our bloodstream 24-7.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

What would freedom from its influences look like for a society?

Have you seen 2002's Equilibrium?

simple,

I came into this thread to make the exact same comment, this is basically the plot of Equilibrium. Fun movie.

Amanduh,

Hello fellow equilibrium lovers

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Fun movie.

...they shoot puppies friend.

cameron_vale,

I’ll give it a watch. Thanks.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Wimmer did it better 4 years later as Ultraviolet.

zeppo,
@zeppo@lemmy.world avatar

Hormones is too broad a word to use without being more specific. ‘Taken by everybody’ is a bit broad and inaccurate. Personally I have to inject a very powerful hormone several times a day to avoid dying, which most people produce naturally in sufficient quantities (insulin). I assume you’re talking about exogenous testosterone and I agree, people without a medical need for this should not have access to it.

cameron_vale,

Ok. I thought it was obvious. Edited.

eyes,

You body begins to die a painful but probably mercifully quick death. Hormones are vital to your bodies continual survival and even if you targeted specific ones, you’d just be creating problems for yourself. Elimated dopamine? Congrats you’ve given yourself ADHD and a host of other personality problems. Melotonin? Oops no more sleep for you, enjoy your sudden weight gain and compromised immune system. We don’t take hormones, we are hormones.

cameron_vale,

Not what I meant. Edited for clarity.

agent_flounder,
@agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

I thought dopamine was a neurotransmitter not a hormone.

zeppo,
@zeppo@lemmy.world avatar

No insulin? Dead in 2-7 days.

Sheeple,
@Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    cameron_vale,

    Pre-puberty I was less aggressive and did not look twice at girls.

    That’s 99% of politics and advertising down the crapper right there.

    I’d call that a pretty big difference.

    AnonTwo,

    Do you...do you think kids don't have testosterone and estrogen???

    You just get more later....

    justlookingfordragon,
    @justlookingfordragon@lemmy.world avatar

    That applies to Testosterone / Estrogen, yes. But keep in mind that there are a lot of non-sexual hormones as well. Insulin and Adrenaline for example are also hormones, and if a body stops producing enough insulin, you can’t exactly claim that “not a lot changes”.

    cameron_vale,

    Yes yes, I’m referring to the big famous mind-altering hormones specifically.

    Sheeple,
    @Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

    Well Insulin for an example doesn’t change behavior which is what OP primarily asked about. But it certainly would cause issues if it was gone.

    Adrenaline’s function is primarily pain numbing agent with the additional effect of increasing resource flow to your muscles.

    Honestly 99% of hormones don’t affect behavior but rather so our physical biological activity. When I say “Not a lot” I mean mentally. Physically you’d fucking die tho lmao

    cameron_vale, (edited )

    I’m a big science fiction fan. I speculate as easily as I breathe. I’m in the minority.

    For the majority, to fill the hole where speculative exploration should be, there is nitpicking, pedantry.

    HeartyBeast,
    HeartyBeast avatar

    It was a poorly worded question, no need to be defensive.

    cameron_vale,

    Well now that you are clear as to my point, could you give me your speculations?

    justlookingfordragon,
    @justlookingfordragon@lemmy.world avatar

    To be honest, I get the feeling that the OP isn’t interested in a good faith argument and just wants to push an agenda, given how hard they try to change their question to get the answers they want to hear … logic and reason won’t help much with this kind of discussion.

    And looking at some of the other comments here (not yours, for the record), I’d better leave this thread before it deteriorates too much ^^° I’ll leave that drama to people who can handle it (I have a bit of a thin skin today, sorry)

    cameron_vale,

    Ok I’ll bite. What’s my hidden agenda?

    AnonTwo,

    You're arguing fight/fuck specifically (to the point you're saying those two specifically), while throughout the thread trying everything you can to narrow down to those two things even when it's not biologically possible, and some of your scenarios ignore that the same hormones that do those things are also needed for other things.

    Like in one of your examples you brought up arts and soccer. You can't appreciate arts without those hormones. You can't be competitive without those hormones.

    DrMoronicAcid,

    Given that hormones control most of the processes occurring in our bodies, there wouldn’t be a society as there wouldn’t be any individuals

    Sheeple,
    @Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    aebrer,
    aebrer avatar

    All of these have very real physical effects, and human life cannot exist without them.

    cameron_vale,

    You know, most of you people can’t seem to get a point unless it’s boldfaced, underlined and verbosely detailed. It makes communication difficult.

    Not to whine or anything. Just part of the process.

    Alto,
    Alto avatar

    "How dare you take what I said at face value!"

    cameron_vale,

    Look at this guy. Thinks words have a face.

    oshitwaddup,

    Probably just go extinct very quick

    cameron_vale,

    Bzzzt. We’d find a way to breed without hormones pushing us around. Look at science, engineering, flower gardening. Plenty of ambition there without chemical influence.

    PP_BOY_,
    @PP_BOY_@lemmy.world avatar

    You seem to have a very poor grasp on science, engineering, and horticulture.

    cameron_vale,

    Skinny kids who couldn’t make it on the football field trying to eke out supremacy in a different arena? Ok, that’s a fair argument.

    PP_BOY_,
    @PP_BOY_@lemmy.world avatar

    What? Please research the endocrine system and what it regulates before making another comment

    cameron_vale,

    I’m talking about the famous ones and their famous effects. Testosterone. Estrogen. Horniness. Aggression. Obsession with titties.

    Now that my point is clearer, speculate.

    agent_flounder,
    @agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

    and horticulture

    This is awesome 😂 💀

    ShunkW,

    You… You know that hormones naturally occur in the body right? You know that without hormones, no one would grow ever? Hormones regulate eating, sleep, and more. You know this, right?

    DrMoronicAcid,

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume OP is only referring to sex hormones, though this could have been made clearer in the question…

    cameron_vale,

    Yes. You are right. Maybe I could have been clearer.

    cameron_vale,

    You know that hormones naturally occur in the body…

    These are the hormones to which I referred in the op. I thought that was clear.

    Ok, maybe “taking” wasn’t the right term but I couldn’t think of better.

    I specifically refer to the big famous mind-altering ones. Testosterone. Estrogen.

    The fight-fuck hormones.

    justlookingfordragon,
    @justlookingfordragon@lemmy.world avatar

    The fight-fuck hormones.

    You seem to be under the impression that “fight and fuck” are the only things caused by sexual hormones.

    There have been studies how low testosterone/estrogen levels affect overall health:

    Symptoms include hot flashes, hair loss, decreased muscle mass, increased body fat, fatigue, decreasing bone mass (osteoporosis), declining cognitive functions. increased risk of anemia, low blood pressure. (Testosterone, Estrogen)

    This applies to both hormones by the way. Every human body, no matter their assigned gender, produces both Testosterone and Estrogen, albeit at different levels. If you would somehow delete both T and E from your body completely, you’d end up as a depressed, overweight, brittle-boned, constantly tired person with memory issues and a messed-up sleep schedule.

    Does that answer your question about how it would affect society?

    cameron_vale, (edited )

    Then assume that we could remove the mind-altering effects without touching the rest. Speculate.

    swiftcasty,

    You just want people to dance to the tune you play.

    Nobody owes you a discussion, especially when you won’t listen or learn.

    Edit: just want to add that your calling hormones “mind-altering” or whatever sounds paranoid and obsessive. Maybe consider talking to a therapist?

    killeronthecorner,
    @killeronthecorner@lemmy.world avatar

    OP is a troll who spouts a lot of pseudoscience and tries to sound like a caricature of an intellectual while doing so. It’s not clear whether they are doing it for the lulz or they are, in fact, dumb as a rock.

    cameron_vale,

    well aren’t you charming.

    justlookingfordragon,
    @justlookingfordragon@lemmy.world avatar

    Aye … and they’re desperately trying to twist the original question into something that will result in the exact answers they want to hear, and that never leads to an honest, informed discussion. Logic and reason won’t work here. “Don’t feed the troll” - I’m off doing other stuff.

    cameron_vale, (edited )

    I said remove the mental influences of T and E. Not remove T and E completely.

    Because powerful uncontrolled mental influences are something that we don’t like.

    I swear. It’s like you people actually seek the most combative, problematic interpretation. Is that what you literally do?

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