Not necessarily. It’s genocide because they’re being specifically targeted for their race, religion, ethnic group, or other genetic or cultural characteristics. Which they absolutely are. If you lock the doors at rock concerts and kill everyone in attendance it’s just mass murder.
Religion is just an excuse to get people on board. This is a territory war, religion is just the thing dividing the two sides, but this is not about religion or race, this is about land and power.
It’s genocide because their culture is slowly getting wiped out. Genocide happens not only in the giant open air concentration camp called Gaza, but also in the West Bank, where the Palestinians are supposedly living in peace with the Israelis. Check out Anna Baltzers documentary about her experience in the West Bank. She went there as a sceptic upon hearing from friends about gruesome stories of how the Israelis treat Palestinians.
Lots of people seem to have learned what “war” is in the last few months and are shocked that it includes large numbers of civilian casualties.
Israel has the equipment and capability to wipe Gaza off the map if they wanted to. If this were an actual genocide and killing Palestinians was the only goal, there would be way, WAY more casualties.
Now, is Israel committing war crimes? Absolutely. So is Hamas. So is nearly any armed group that finds themselves in a conflict. War is brutal and turns men into monsters capable of horrendous things. But this doesn’t fit the definition of genocide and it cheapens the word to try and frame it that way.
Mate if they orchestrated a complete mass murder in an instant, absolutely no one would be able to defend it. This way, people get to just say “well, it’s war”.
Right. Because if their goal was to wipe out all Palestinians, they would of course put all of their efforts and resources towards that without letting international politics affect what they do and how they do it… /s
I think their point is that: of course it’s not the intention to wipe them out, because if it was, it would already have been done on Oct 8th. Which isn’t a terrible argument.
Hamas has stated it wants to genocide Israel, and their actions match that. Indiscriminate rocket fire, suicide bombing, invading etc. essentially everything they can do.
By contrast Israel has not (officially) said they want to genocide Palestine, and they aren’t using even a fraction of the weapons at their disposal. Personally, I see their actions more as angry and sloppy. What’s the alternative, that they’re going to kill hundreds of people a day for the next years? That’s ridiculous.
of course it’s not the intention to wipe them out, because if it was, it would already have been done on Oct 8th.
…
Unless they wanted to commit a genocide while maintaining just enough plausible deniability to have people like you and I debating their intentions while it happens.
In which case it would look… exactly how it looks. Crazy, that.
It’s “the VAST majority of deaths are innocent civilians”. It’s like if Texas kidnapped 5 random citizens to kill every time someone was given the death sentence. Would you say that’s acceptable because it’s just “collateral damage”?
This is by design on the part of Hamas though. It doesn’t excuse the situation, but it does make it more complicated especially with regard to intent, which has to matter when considering charges of genocide.
I don’t know that one negative makes the other right. They can both be culpable of fabricating this situation to feed larger interests. IDF is reeling in Bibi’s dirty war and Hamas is Iran’s puppet to destabilize the region. They are all shitheads, as history had shown. I don’t know why leftys have coraled around defending Hamas when it’s the Palestinian people suffering the brunt of their actions.
Not saying I don’t believe you, but do you have sources or more info?
My reason for “defending” Hamas is because of the scale of destruction (Israel is systematically destroying their entire country vs homemade mortars made by Hamas) and the intent (Israel wants to have the entire land to themselves by almost any means necessary vs Hamas wants to fight their oppressors) so I place much more blame on Israel for killing civilians than Hamas. Both are bad, sure. Everyone knows that, every innocent death is an absolute and heartbreaking tragedy. Hamas has little control of the situation tho, while Israel has the third largest military in the world. Who do you think is more responsible?
You don’t think two things can be true at the same time? Hamas absolutely are using human shield tactics, and have been for as long as they’ve been in existence. There are articles on the Internet showing how and why they do this years back.
AND at the same time, Israel is using that fact to bomb much more indiscriminately than they could be.
Wait, so you’re claiming that Israelis are Middle Eastern but are trying to exterminate themselves and preserve white people? I am so confused by your insane argument.
As for the evidence, you linked me a sketchy article from a non-reliable source. Just Google “Hamas human shields” and set the year to 2014, 2015, 2016… It’s one of their longest running traditions and has been acknowledged by the UN and virtually every country on earth.
To be honest, this is probably just a troll account so I’m not sure why I’m even wasting the time.
trying to exterminate themselves and preserve white people?
Israeli apologism requires some hysterical pretzel-logic - but you’ve managed to go even lower than the average shill here. I guess white supremacism is a hard subject for liberals who want to pretend it doesn’t exist, no?
you linked me a sketchy article
Ignore it if you want - it doesn’t change anything.
Just Google “Hamas human shields”
Riiiiight, Clyde - every picture of a Palestinian child is a picture of a “human shield,” right? And if you can’t see the Hamas “terrorist” said child is carrying on her back it’s just proof of how sneaky they are, correct?
I’m not sure why I’m even wasting the time.
You have to because your pro-white supremacist propaganda is falling before your very eyes. It’s a bit of a case of sunken cost fallacy if you ask me - but I have yet to see fascist sympathizers drop a debunked narrative in a timely fashion.
And Nazi Germany could have used poison gas to clear the western USSR of it’s population so much faster - so I guess there was nothing genocidal about Nazi Germany, eh apologist?
All of these posts are so weird to me about arguing that Israel is commiting genocide. No one seems to mention or care that over and over again Hamas has admitted and encouraged genocide against Israel. But they’re smaller so I guess it’s okay?
The whole point of the state of Israel is to have an ethnostate - at the minimum, apartheid, at the maximum, genocide - which is why there is a huge split among Jewish people worldwide as to whether or not be Zionists.
They went aggressive defense, after the effects of WW2. They built an impressive machine to both keep themselves safe (by all means necessary) and hunt down Nazis who fled into hiding.
Unfortunately, they ran out of targets, on the nazi front, and really pissed off their neighbours. Rather than risk de-escalating, they’ve gone all-in.
The intergenerational changeover, and the political games that entailed lead to the current situation.
Stare too long into the abyss, and the abyss will stare back into you.
Give it a break. One of Israel’s staunchest allies since the start was West Germany - which enthusiastically co-operated with Israel while Israel was fully aware that it’s intelligence services were jam-packed with nazis. Israel only hunted the nazis that were convenient to hunt.
The ones working for west Germany, as well as America weren’t hiding, they were useful. Their targets were the one who were useless alive for anything other than getting revenge against.
The key is they had a good excuse to build a highly effective surveillance and infiltration system. It also was/is skilled at getting their hands dirty on foreign soil, while keeping the mess contained. At the time, they have a worthy target. As time went on, the number of targets dropped. The system in place was then turned to other uses.
I always see historical fallacy being used to suit their own biases and frankly I am getting tired of it. While many Nazis and collaborators weren’t prosecuted, and they should have been, did West Germany still have laws prosecuting Jews and other minorities after the war? The fact that you will be prosecuted for doing Nazi salutes and symbols in Germany says a lot. Post-war Germany is not the same as Nazi Germany as evidence show, for crying out loud.
I know Lemmy is as left leaning as Reddit, but as a left leaning minority myself, these shoehorning and virtue signaling from the left is cringey af.
After the war, discrimination against Roma continued all over Europe. The courts in the Federal Republic of Germany determined that all measures taken against Roma before 1943 were legitimate official measures against persons committing criminal acts, not the result of policy driven by racial prejudice. This decision effectively closed the door to restitution for thousands of Roma victims, who had been incarcerated, forcibly sterilized, and deported out of Germany for no specific crime. The postwar police authorities took over the research files of the Nazi regime, including the registry of Roma who had resided in the Greater German Reich, and police harassment and discrimination continued.
Only in late 1965 did the West German compensation law explicitly acknowledge that the acts of persecution that took place before 1943 were racially motivated, creating eligibility for most Roma to apply for compensation for their suffering and loss under the Nazi regime. By this time, many of those who became eligible had already died. In March 1982 Federal Chancellor, Helmut Schmidt, formally stated that German Roma had been victims of genocide.
I guess it’s true what they say… underneath the liberal 1st world pretensions it’s still the same old Europe.
Let’s be clear on one thing… the nazis were not some “aberration” - the predatory and parasitic socio-economic systems that enabled and nurtured them is still very much alive and kicking in (so-called) “western civilization.”
Interesting, I hadn’t realised that. Thanks for sharing. It did take a long time for Germany to come to terms with their past. It was the children and grandchildren of the war generation who fully acknowledges and admit of the atrocities. But even so, that hasn’t really got to do with Germany somehow influencing Israeli state’s policies, unless there is evidence to show for.
It did take a long time for Germany to come to terms with their past.
Have they?
Germany is still controlled by the same kind of capitalists that funded the nazis to protect them from working-class revolt. Germany is still controlled by the same kind of politicians that gave up power to the nazis out of political expediency. Germany went from being a fascist state to enabling another pretty darn obvious one - Israel.
No, I think Germany has no more “come to terms with it’s past” than any other colonizer state.
But even so, that hasn’t really got to do with Germany somehow influencing Israeli
Germany aiding and abetting a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonial state has got nothing to do with this?
Germany is still controlled by the same kind of capitalists that funded the nazis to protect them from working-class revolt. Germany is still controlled by the same kind of politicians that gave up power to the nazis out of political expediency. Germany went from being a fascist state to enabling another pretty darn obvious one - Israel.
Another leftist overreaching and attribution bias that make my eyes roll everytime. Just because a society is capitalist it doesn’t mean they’re Nazis. Norway and Denmark are capitalists albeit have very strong social protections and regulations. Germany is similar. Fascism has a specific meaning than just “capitalist”. Just because you don’t like something, you just can’t call it “fascist.” Germany isn’t perfect but by no means they are still Nazis or fascists. They accepted refugees en masse, second to Sweden. How does that sound like Nazi to you?
Germany aiding and abetting a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonial state has got nothing to do with this?
And this is another case of oversimplifying complex issues and requires a lot of unpacking. It’s a chicken or egg scenario. There are those who agreed to the creation of Israeli state, but then there are those who hasn’t-- which led to the conflict as it were now. Israel did not start as a fascist state-- they have been ruled by a left-wing party in the first half of their existence. But tensions and refusal by Arab states to recognise Israel put Israelis into a siege mentality. This created a cycle of violence as Israel turned to become more vengeful and right-wing due to the past conflicts and invasion. Eventually, and at the very least, Arab states came to terms that Israel is here to stay. However, more radical Muslim Arab paramilitary factions are still prodding Israel. The latest of that prodding is from Hamas.
Now, of course, as the UN secretary general said, Hamas violence did not start in a vacuum. Israel had been treating Palestinians as second class citizens. But it’s also because Israel have developed a siege mentality for aforementioned reasons, which they retaliate in return but also makes Palestinians seek vengeance in return as well. And the cycle of revanchism continues. “An eye of an eye makes us all blind”, and that is precisely what is happening. This, however, does not excuse Hamas attack on October 7, nor Israel’s treatment of Palestinians.
However, even with all that, Israel is still far from being a fascist in spite of the military supremacy in the region. Being far-right or right-wing does not mean they’re fascist. They still have election and Netanyahu’s party is actually unpopular and clings dearly to forming coalitions. Israel is still open to negotiations and as a matter of fact-- before the Hamas attack in October 7, there was meant to be a deal to be signed between Saudi and Israel for closer cooperation in exchange to unequivocally giving up occupied settlements in West Bank. But Hamas derailed that at the last minute with their attack. I bet you did not hear that? That being said, Israel is far from being a fascist because they still allow elections and decorum (until debatably recently which I will get to that later). Fascists don’t do that as they would limit free and fair elections. Fascism has more specific criteria than just being capitalist or anything you don’t like. I suggest you read on Umberto Eco’s 14 characteristics of fascism instead of just throwing labels.
While I do not agree with providing Israel more aid (they received more than enough in all these years), attributing Germany as still “nazi” or “fascist” simply because they help Israel does not make Germany “fascist”. And by the way, the FT article you linked is one month and a half old, before Israel’s fascistic behaviour in invading Gaza strip. So, Germany gave aid to Israel before the invasion of Gaza so they could not have known how Israel would do. This does not make Germany fascist. You could accuse these countries too as fascist for supporting Israel for being invaded. Throwing labels willy nilly on something you don’t like and don’t know the meaning, dilutes the meaning and significance of the term. It’s not intellectually productive and is lazy. This is what Slavoj Zizek have railed against with liberals and left just throwing buzzwords.
overreaching and attribution bias that make my eyes roll everytime.
Roll your eyes until they’re doing somersaults, Clyde… capitalism doesn’t cease working the way it works just because you find it’s thoroughly predicted outcomes inconvenient for the fairy tale you wish you were existing in.
They accepted refugees en masse, second to Sweden.
Gee… how is that whole “see no fascism, hear no fascism, speak no fascism” thing working out for you?
Israel did not start as a fascist state
Riiiiight… white supremacist settler-colonialism and fascism are totally not so intimately and indelibly linked that it’s almost impossible to tell where one starts and the other ends, eh Clyde?
It’s not as if the uber-examples of fascist states we have were all frustrated colonizers, or the fact that the most prolific sponsor of fascist terrorism in world history also happens to be the world’s most prolific neocolonialist.
Yep… pure coincidence all round, Clyde.
Israel is still far from being a fascist
Right… they can’t be fascist if you so desperately want them to be the “good guys,” right?
But Hamas derailed that at the last minute with their attack.
Oh, of course… it’s all the Palestinians’ fault, right? And if Jewish people would just have stopped with their nasty “Jewish-Bolshevism” Hitler wouldn’t have been forced into perpetrating the Holocaust, right?
What else do you have for me, apologist?
I suggest you read on Umberto Eco’s 14 characteristics of fascism instead of just throwing labels.
Oh, I’m very familiar with Eco’s little list - it’s a perfectly flawed and dangerous misunderstanding of what fascism really is. But liberals love it because Eco treats fascism as some kind of aberration to liberals’ precious little classical liberal nation-state - which is why people like you cannot recognize it when it is literally staring you in the face.
So, Germany gave aid to Israel before the invasion of Gaza
Sooooo… Germany gave aid to a white supremacist settler-colonialist state before said white supremacist settler-colonialist state did the very thing white supremacist settler-colonialist states always do?
Slavoj Zizek
Could you actually quote somebody less irrelevant?
We’re talking about post-war Germany. Are CDU and SDF, both parties that have ruled Germany after World War 2, far-right? The rise of modern German far right is way after Germany accepted refugees in 2015. You’re just showing that anyone you don’t agree with is fascist by shoehorning after the fact examples that you miscontrue to fit your bias. If this is a court of law, it will not go down well for you. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say it seems to me you have no idea about international politics or politics in general. Come back when you know more.
Riiiiight… white supremacist settler-colonialism and fascism are totally not so intimately and indelibly linked that it’s almost impossible to tell where one starts and the other ends, eh Clyde?
Palestine did agree initially, but then there was a civil war among Palestinians afterwards. If you actually know history you would know, but instead you keep parroting the same talking points.
But Hamas derailed that at the last minute with their attack.
Oh, of course… it’s all the Palestinians’ fault, right? And if Jewish people would just have stopped with their nasty “Jewish-Bolshevism” Hitler wouldn’t have been forced into perpetrating the Holocaust, right?
Well now, as I suspected, so you weren’t aware that Israel was going to give up settlements in West Bank, as demanded by Saudi Arabia as part of the deal? If you just get out of your naive lefty bubble, you would know. And it seems to me that you’re not acknowledging Hamas as a terror group despite taking foreign nationals as hostages? Am I reading that right? I never blamed Palestinians. Are you aware that Hamas does not mean Palestinians?
It is easy for someone to parse complicated and tangled mess with simple narrative and bitesize without seeing the full picture, because the average human brain-- stil unevolved from our lizard ancestors-- could not cope with massive amount of information and resort to heuristics. Go watch the video explaining the run up before Hamas attack, when Israel and Saudi were about sign a deal, part of which Israel was going to give up occupied settlements. Or if it is tldr for you, here is a9 minute run down.
Oh, I’m very familiar with Eco’s little list - it’s a perfectly flawed and dangerous misunderstanding of what fascism really is. But liberals love it because Eco treats fascism as some kind of aberration to liberals’ precious little classical liberal nation-state - which is why people like you cannot recognize it when it is literally staring you in the face.
Eco and other’s have overlap on what they consider to be fascist. Is Germany militaristic and ultranationalist after World War 2 despite budget cuts on the military and taboo if one proclaims to be nationalist? They allowed Turkish migrants after World War 2 to fill labour shortage. How does that even sound fascist to you? You just want to call anyone you don’t like fascist. Because for you it is easy to stereotype because it doesn’t involve much thinking.
Slavoj Zizek is perfectly relevant. Because the left has a certain naivete and blindspot with their worldview, which he has commented upon.
Yes we are. The real one… not the fantasy one you were sold.
Are CDU and SDF, both parties that have ruled Germany after World War 2, far-right?
How far to the right was the German politicians that sicced the far-right on the German populace during the socialist uprisings after WW1, Clyde? You seem to be under the impression that your (so-called) “moderates” and “liberals” have never allied themselves with fascists - and that’s quite laughable because Germany is the ur-example that perfectly demonstrates what function the fascist element plays in the modern classical liberal nation-state… and why liberal political establishments keep them around.
In fact… fascists cannot gain power without the aid of (supposedly) “moderate” political establishments unlocking the gates for them. Nothing surprising about that… after all - liberals and fascists share the same end-goal… the preservation of their precious status quo.
And we know how allergic liberals are to getting their hands bloody, don’t we, Clyde?
Come back when you know more.
Oh look… the “centrist understander” thinks they have a leg to stand on. Let’s put that to the test, shall we?
Are you aware that Hamas does not mean Palestinians?
I guess Hamas only recruits Inuits and Mongolians, then?
They allowed Turkish migrants after World War 2 to fill labour shortage.
Lol! Yeah… they allowed Jewish and Slavic labor during the war, too.
Blah, blah, blah, irrelevant apologetics ad nauseum.
Centrist, do you have anything to justify your fairy tale peddling that doesn’t just exist out of the same canned and thoroughly debunked liberal bullcrap I’ve heard a thousand times before?
Projection. You call everything fascist you don’t agree with it. You are like someone who calls everything gay that you don’t like. For you, a capitalist country is fascist including social democrats like Scandinavia. The fantasy one sold to you is if the world is democratic socialist or communist then only it can’t be fascist. You are embodying precisely what Slavoj Zizek comments, a naive, high-on-the-horse leftist who hasn’t touched grass. Come back when you educate yourself.
Are you aware that Hamas does not mean Palestinians?
I guess Hamas only recruits Inuits and Mongolians, then?
Do you realise there is PLO? Of course not, you just repeat whatever is said like a parrot.
Lol! Are we getting a bit flustered, enlightened centrist?
Come now… be honest. What were you doing when antifa was throwing down with fascists in the streets?
Want me to take a stab at it? I’d guess you were heckling those antifascists real hard, weren’t you? After all… how dare those troublemakers invite real fascism by harrassing those totally not-neo-nazis and their police allies while they were innocently walking down the streets, eh?
Fascists can always find a use for centrists… after all - it’s pretty much proven that centrists pose no threat to them. That must be a pretty comforting thought for you.
Can’t rebut anything and resort to usual lefty parroting points and buzzwords. Can’t admit you don’t know anything about the wider world apart from the naive lefty narrative you just regurgitate. Sure, call everything gay on anything you don’t like. That’s how you were conditioned. You pretend you’re not a bigot but you are. Come back to the big boy’s table when you’ve grown up. Oh wait… probably too late for you.
And I am guessing you only condone violence if it only serves you. So are you condoning Hamas taking foreign hostages who have nothing to do with the conflict? Least critical thinking troll.
Oh, you are absolutely correct, centrist - I cannot rebut the “see no fascism, hear no fascism, speak no fascism” fairy tale you are peddling. That is, after all, the point of this particular fairy tale, is it not?
But, as the recent collapse of the pro-Israeli propaganda consensus has demonstrated, you might find that your fairy tale convinces fewer and fewer people going forward.
I suggest you keep an eye on your copium stocks - you might need more than you think.
They knew what they were doing when they patronized a white supremacist settler-colonialist state.
I’ve never bothered to find out… can you actually see the walls of the world’s largest concentration camp from the venue they were holding that rave festival at?
Spoken like a true tankie.
Oh look… the enlightened centrist understander predictably still doesn’t understand the terms they are throwing around.
Not necessarily, definitely not generally. But the party “Die Linke” in Germany ( basically translates to the left/leftists) has some strongly russophilic currents. I’d wager that’s the case in more countries than just Germany.
What’s happening in Ukraine, Gaza, as well as countless other places, are frigging tragedies, but it’s not genocides.
There is actually a genocide being perpetrated presently, but as nobody wants to piss of China nobody’s talking about it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
I don’t really think that’s true, lol. It may just be my own bias as a leftist that heavily condemns Russia’s invasion, but the vast majority of leftists condemn Russia invading, with some also condemning NATO’s historical treatment of the Russian Federation, leading to an unjust invasion in the first place.
It’s kind of like people that say the US government caused 9/11 by being an absolute villian on a global stage, especially with respect to the Middle East. That’s not saying 9/11 was justified, but that the US government shouldn’t have held their foreign policy the way they have for centuries in the first place.
Maybe I’m blind, but I really don’t see anyone saying Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is justified.
Leftists are anti-Imperialism and Anti-Colonialism as a rule, so being pro-Imperialism is a decidedly not leftist take.
I’m just basing this on what I see all over hexbear and lemmygrad in particular. I have, in fact, gotten a ban for “genocide denial” on hexbear for suggesting that Russia is perpetuating genocide against the Ukrainian people. The absolute irony.
Yup, as a leftist Russia is an imperialist capitalist country doing the terrible things those countries do. These conflicts will always occur until we move on from this system. Every capitalist imperialist hegemon engages in these conflicts. Where I seem to agitate people is I don’t make exception for this for other hegemon countries like the US and alliances like NATO, as if this had no historical context and was inevitable.
I see, I just want to state that there’s an odd use of terminology you’ve used. I’m assuming that you’re referring to marxists, socialist, etc, as the “leftists”, I just wish to point out that they absolutely HATE liberals, like the Democratic Party and such. The liberals actually support Ukraine while those leftists are more “eh” on the subject.
Not at all. In fact, far from being risky, it’s the received wisdom here on Lemmy. I will get far more downvotes for merely questioning the framing of it as a genocide than will OP.
What total horse shit. Mark Zuckerberg’s safety is in no way conditioned on the existence of Israel.
But Biden isn’t a liberal (in conventional US usage anyway) and I doubt he’d describe himself as one. He’s an establishment centrist if there ever was one.
He’s a neoliberal Clintonite. He’s in the most right wing part of even that right wing form of liberalism, but still a neoliberal, which is the DNC default kind of liberalism and has been since 1992.
That comes with the boldest admission I’ve ever seen, that we as the entire rest of the world are uniformly unwilling to stand by and protect the Jewish people in our communities and countries. Fuck that. No, we must protect our Jewish neighbors, we must be willing to take in Jewish refugees of antisemitism. We must take it upon ourselves be the place where Jews are safe. Saying Israel is the source of Jewish safety is a fucking cop out and it’s a disgusting one at that.
There are lots of marginalized groups that do not have the benefit of having a homeland country that are continuing to survive. Maybe we were more barbaric in the past, and there’s certainly still antisemitism to root out, but I don’t agree with the take that countries couldn’t protect their own Jewish populations.
There are no other groups that had 2/3rds of their population in Europe and almost half their worldwide population systemically murdered, while the world refused ships full of Jews and had hard quotas on how many Jews were allowed in.
Should these countries protect their population? Yes. Did they? Maybe their own. But they sure didn’t protect Jews in the rest of Europe. Did the US have a duty to protect German citizens? Do we today? What has actually changed?
this is another meme using the European/PolSci definition of Liberals, meaning classic/neoliberal, as in 'capitalists'. Definitely confusing and generally wrong in a modern US context.
It’s true not all liberals support this, but I’ve certainly seen a fair number hand-waving Biden’s vocal support of this genocidal state as if it’s no big deal.
It’s not that it’s “not a big deal.” It’s that he’s still the better of the two realistic possibilities. No Republican running for president will be harder on Israel than Biden is being (which is, admittedly, in no way hard), and they are all far worse on other metrics important to the left.
But that’s another hand-waving deflection. When can we discuss the deeply problematic words and actions of our current president without establishment liberals popping out of wells to tell us he’s not as bad as Republicans? He’s still doing and supporting some unacceptably fucked up shit.
We can do that once the threat of right wing extremism is not so imminent. We lashed out at Hillary and got Trump. Now women can’t get abortions without dying first. Corporations have their record profits and record tax breaks. We don’t want another four years of constant stress
We can do that once the threat of right wing extremism is not so imminent
Is exactly the kind of attitude that results in the kind of right wing democrats that gave the extreme right wing enough leeway to take over the GOP rather than be shunned by society like they were before the DNC and their media arm elevated Trump.
The right wing extremism will always be imminent. It’s like a show that ends every episode on a cliffhanger to try to keep audiences watching. Hillary gave us Trump: salon.com/…/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentio…
Then she positioned herself as the only solution. It’s funny when people say “OMG HILLARY WAS RIGHT” yeah, of course she could tell the outcome of a situation she was key in creating. She wanted that presidency and she was willing to promote fascists to get there. Vote for her or die. This is basically the only democrat strategy now. I’m going to keep voting for democrats anyway because our system has no real choice, but don’t use this situation to shield democrats from criticism, they deserve plenty of it.
It’s funny when people say “OMG HILLARY WAS RIGHT” yeah, of course she could tell the outcome of a situation she was key in creating.
That’s s stupid comment regardless of which candidate or election you’re taking about. “Hillary warned us about Trump!” Of course she did. She was running against Trump! She would’ve warned us about her opponent regardless of who it was. In fact, if she didn’t do that, she would be a shitty campaigner.
You know who else Hillary warned us about? Bernie Sanders!
I’m going to keep voting for democrats anyway because our system has no real choice
Yeah… people are quick to point out that Republicans can’t win elections without massive voter repression - but they never admit that Democrats can’t win without literally threatening everyone with the other side’s fascism, either.
It’s been that way ever since the Obama betrayal - and that’s not something corporate liberalism will ever deserve forgiveness for.
It was that way during the 2004 Bush v. Kerry election and probably the 2000 Bush v. Gore election, too. (I don’t remember much about 2000 because I wasn’t really paying attention to politics yet.) And it probably goes back even further than that.
You know all of the rhetoric used against Trump? They were saying all of the same things about W. Bush.
Obama was very different… when Obama promised change people believed him. People don’t really talk about this… but I believe that Obama delivering nothing except more of the same was the last time people who voted Dem would ever trust corporate liberals ever again. There was a break there that the Dems can never fix, and deservedly so. It’s the reason why the Dem strategy to win elections now pretty much boils down to “vote for us or we hand you over to the fascists.”
Are you in America? Because right now, in America, wr have literally two choices: shitheel Hitler or old establishment.
I would LOVE it if we had viable third party candidates or ranked choice shit. But we don’t. So yeah I’m going to throw all my weight behind the candidate who ISN’T parroting shitheel nationalist rhetoric.
Your complaints against Biden are valid and worth discussing… but it’s stupid and irresponsible to suggest that pointing out the fascistic tendencies of conservatives is the fault of the democrats.
wr have literally two choices: shitheel Hitler or old establishment.
Even from here it’s pretty easy to see that those are not two mutually exclusive things.
I would LOVE it if we had viable third party candidates
But you don’t, do you? Do you think it’s some coincidence or “Act Of God” that you don’t?
So yeah I’m going to throw all my weight behind the candidate who ISN’T parroting shitheel nationalist rhetoric.
If that makes you sleep better at night, be my guest. Hell, if I was a USian I’d probably do the same.
Your complaints against Biden are valid and worth discussing…
Biden is not the problem - it’s the political establishment people like him (and Trump plus the rest of them) represent. That’s the problem - and voting is not going to fix that.
In order to use a “both sides” fallacy, Clyde, you first have to have two opposing sides. The “good cop, bad cop” routine that the US political establishment plays with you doesn’t mean there are two opposing sides here.
Democrats are not just pointing out that republicans are acting like fascists, democrats are actively funding and supporting fascists because they think of it as a valid strategy: npr.org/…/why-democrats-are-paying-for-ads-suppor…
Then they turn around and point at those candidates to say “we must defeat fascism”. The problem is that some of these crazy candidates actually get elected (see trump, as I pointed out with the link I posted about clinton’s team helping him). Democrats would rather slide into fascism instead of moving to the left, which is why they’re funding these campaigns and then claiming they’re the only way to fight it.
You raise a good point, and just as a disclaimer I’m not American, but I feel like there’s space for a) voting and campaigning for the democratic candidate, while also b) decrying your poverty of choice in the matter.
But maybe the stakes are just so existential (clearly), that any disent has to take a backseat to just getting the less shitty party in power.
It’s coming from a place of privilege to think we can wait until then. It’s coming from a position in which you can stand back and look at everything through the lens of a campaign rather than being deeply hurt by his policies. People in the border camps need to be freed NOW. We need to give the land back NOW. Israel needs to stop committing genocide NOW.
I’m sorry if it causes you “constant stress” to think about this. I’m sure other people’s pain and suffering is so hard for you to bear, but we need to talk about this. We need to somehow stop Biden and his party from continuing to support and bolster these atrocities.
“My world view is defined by my limited personal experience” is the most right wing thing I’ve ever heard. If we’re going around judging a person’s entire life on single statements.
You know what else is a right-wing thing? Completely misrepresenting someone’s words. I didn’t say what you quoted, nor did I allude to it.
Thinking we’re supposed to be satisfied with a right-wing neoliberal president who open supports and bolsters genocidal and colonial practices because there is worse opposition, or treating humans like pawns in some sick tactical election game while people suffer under Biden’s leadership-- these are objectively damaging and privileged positions to take.
If your response to someone criticizing the president for his genocidal practices is to become defensive and say “tEh RePuBlIcAnS aRe WoRsE!!!1!!” then you’ve got a fucking problem.
Edit: Besides, the Democrats are a right-wing party
Here’s another thing you do that really pushes people away: No one said a damn thing about voting Trump, or DeSantis, or anyone else.
In fact, I don’t think I even mentioned voting at all.
Who’s president right now? Let’s talk about him. We need to be able to demand he cease his genocidal actions without having people like you constantly deflecting criticism with this pointless whataboutism. It’s as pointless as it is exhausting.
OK. I’ll be that vs. someone who excuses atrocoties like fascism and genocide. I’ll be that vs. someone who clothes their speech in tolerance while building camps and walls at the border.
You mean the threat that he has basically only delayed? That as a party, historically, the democrats have only ever delayed because their shitty centrist candidates do nothing to progress beyond; leading to an America that is on the brink of fascism?
You should probably retire that macro… it’s getting a little musty.
It’s all a sick game to them. It’s always about the polls and the next election. Sometimes I feel like they’re incapable of any actual genuine empathy.
It’s always about the polls and the next election.
Isn’t that what democracy is supposed to do? The elected leader should follow the will of the people. If the people are saying do X, the leader should do X despite his personal preference.
I’m referring to people who shield the current president from criticism of his genocidal practices by arguing that if we talk about these deeply disturbing things he’s supporting and doing, it will somehow hurt his chances in the next election. Literally no consideration or empathy for the people being harmed by his actions – just “well, he needs to win the next election.” Extremely deranged.
If the people are saying do X, the leader should do X despite his personal preference
No. If the people are calling for genocidal or colonial practices, then no. You are using the same logic people would use to defend the anti-trans and anti-POC laws my own state has passed. The majority here may support them, but this does not mean they are immune to criticism, nor should they be. It’s really anti-human and anti-progress to think otherwise.
Edit: I want people to really read this user’s comments to me right here. This right here is the brainrot that privileged liberals bring to the table. Absolutely appalling behavior by this person.
This doesn’t seem correct. Any criticism of a Democrat immediately elicits defensiveness and wild accusations of supporting Trump. I’m starting to think they’re incapable of actual empathy. Imagine defending something like ICE or Israel.
While you talk about from a distance in terms of political theory, we have people suffering under Biden’s leadership. It’s people like you who enable these atrocities. It’s all a sick game to you…
You have confused me with the majority of people. If the vast majority said do X, a leader in a democracy does X or will be voted out with someone who will do it.
Trump has promised to do worse to Muslims and Palestinians. A large percentage of the American population agrees with Trump and will therefore vote for him.
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