'Sometimes' and even 'most of the time' isn't 'all the time'.
WW2 is an exceptionally rare event in which one side is so fucking awful that the support of the opposition is mandatory to not be a vile piece of shit.
No. The Israelis committing genocide is the extremely common event in which one side is awful enough that supporting them in unconscionable. It doesn't make their equally genocide-eager but less genocide-capable foes morally necessary to support.
You are going to be in for a real surprise if you learn the things the ANC did to the Apartheid. And the Native Americans did to their colonizers when raising villages. And all these other resistance movements that we now describe as “heroic”.
October 7 sure as hell wasn’t the cleanest attack ever, but it sure was a lot less genocidal than almost every resistance group that has ever done these kinds of things.
October 7 sure as hell wasn’t the cleanest attack ever, but it sure was a lot less genocidal than almost every resistance group that has ever done these kinds of things.
These people can barely hide their own bloodlust while scolding others for daring to even suggest that there is nuance or complexity here. It’s bold even for tankie brain rot.
Right? I learned yesterday that Israel is suffering from a lot more friendly fire incidents than is typical in urban warfare. Almost like the people they’re fighting are so poorly equipped to fight back that the main threat to Israeli soldiers is other Israeli soldiers.
The only thing I can say is that both have no problem with harming combatants and civilians alike, but one side is disproportionately killing civilians with the resources at their disposal (Israel) just because they can.
I’m not convinced that Hamas wouldn’t do the same if the tables were turned, but one side needs to be better if we’re ever to see an end to this conflict.
I always thought the IDF was supposed to be super skilled and tactical. I expected surgical strikes to take out terrorists and minimize civilian casualties. They had a reputation for strength.
Turns out they’re either incompetent or they’re genocidal or both. Hint: both.
Unfortunately, for those in the know, the IDF's callous and sadistic operations in Palestine have been known for some time. They had a good PR arm making themselves out to be super careful in the occupied territories, but it was always at odds with their actions.
Well, the good PR arm is pre-October 7, back when they were 'just' doming American citizens and tying Palestinian children to their vehicles as human shields. Right now I'm pretty sure their entire PR team is either on vacation celebrating that their job is over now that Israel is going mask off, or have chosen to eat a bullet over seeing their work whitewashing all these atrocities pissed away by Netanyahu.
Hamas and the Islamic brotherhood have only fired 12,000 rockets at Israel since 10/7. I’m sure they don’t want to kill indiscriminately, just give the Israelis a fireworks show! /s
If 12,000 rockets fired means they are attacking indiscriminately, what would you say about the many more thousands of bombs that the IDF has dropped over the entire area of Gaza? Why are IDF engineers rigging residential buildings with bombs and destroying them after clearing them out? What is the purpose of their missile strikes on refugee convoys and ambulances?
I mean I’d say that also counts as attacking indiscriminately. The idea behind the term “indiscriminately” means that you don’t care who is on the other side, so it can apply in both of these situations.
I haven’t seen a number of bombs dropped by the IDF recently, but it was in the thousands last I heard probably in December. Israel also has much heavier munitions and is capable of high accuracy. Independent analysis show that by November 6th, the IDF had dropped at least 500 2,000 pound bombs, causing impact craters larger than 40 feet, in densely populated residential areas.
The heavy munitions, mostly manufactured by the US, can cause high casualty events and can have a lethal fragmentation radius – an area of exposure to injury or death around the target – of up to 365 meters (about 1,198 feet), or the equivalent of 58 soccer fields in area.
Whether or not militants hide in hospitals or ambulances it is abhorrent to attack medical staff and is generally recognized as a war crime. There have been numerous deaths of independent observers, foreign medical staff. More UN aid workers have been killed by the IDF since October than in any other conflict in their history.
Yeah, I’m not making excuses for anyone. People just have this tendency to exaggerate towards “their” side.
Taking either side in this thing like it’s a sports team seems kind of obscene to me. We don’t need to be making things up to try to “win” an online argument.
Regardless of how much damage Israel has done, I don’t think they’ve dropped 16,000 bombs.
Data from conflict-tracking group Airwars suggests that the US-led coalition against IS in Iraq carried out 15,000 strikes between 2014 and 2017; the Israeli military has carried out 22,000 in Gaza in less than three months.
I searched “number of Israeli bombs dropped” on duckduckgo and that was one of the first that came up, there are other stats I’ve seen referenced before like bombs dropped or mortar strikes etc. if you follow the original source cited by the Guardian it may be more specific, I haven’t looked at that yet whoops I see you say you looked at that already
Too many people don’t get that, I am 100% against Hamas, that might be different, if instead of a bunch of civilians, they had just taken like legitimate military people, I know everyone in Israel’s a veteran blah blah blah.
Hell, I could even have a lot more respect for them if they immediately released everyone who wasn’t an Israeli soldier.
Shit even if they just give up the fucking children.
But they didn’t do any of that and they’re complete fucking bastards and cowards.
But I can say damn hear everything the same against fucking Israel here.
They are both bad, and I don’t understand the people who are only against one or the other.
Yeah, that’s nonsense. Not once, from any media, Western, independent, or Middle Eastern have I heard that. They are Muslim but their sole purpose is Palestinian liberation and to fight Zionism. It’s in their party charter.
Note: This is sure as shit not meant to downplay or deny Israel's ongoing genocide. Only to point out the absurdity of some online leftists in simping for Hamas and expressing disbelief that far-right theocrats with a history of committing terrible crimes would commit terrible crimes.
In my view it’s rare that anyone really ‘simps for Hamas’, they are the leading militant group in Gaza opposing the Israeli state though so if there are victories against IDF forces it’s usually going to be under that umbrella, and praising a victory against IDF is not the same as praising past terror attacks. I’ve never heard anyone confused that they are communist. There are Marxist-Leninist groups in Palestine though, like the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.
By creating and attacking a strawman here you’re distracting from the important points. Hamas is a direct response to the oppression of the Palestinian people by Israel. It’s classic blowback and communists are just pointing out the obvious here. You can disagree that Hamas is deserving of critical support in the context of the current conflict, but if you ignore the conditions that led to Oct 7th and the fallout since you are taking the wrong lesson away from this issue and someday will be found on the wrong side of history.
72% of Palestinians believe the attack on Israel was “correct”.
This is only because it was. And I’m really sad to say it, but it definitely was “correct”.
Listen. Palestinians are fighting a losing war. Their enemy has taken their homes and is ethnically cleansing the region. There is NOTHING that they can do about it. We’re watching the death throes of an entire people. And sometimes when you corner an animal, it bites. It’s not gonna be nice. But Israel is fully responsible for this situation. It wasn’t Palestine that wanted the two state solution. It wasn’t Palestine that illegally settled Israel and stole their land. It wasn’t Palestine that got granted an entire fucking country for no reason. It wasn’t Palestine rigging elections in Israel and supporting the local terrorist organization. Israel has been the architect of all this destruction. Piece by piece, little by little, with the international community backing them and turning a blind eye to their genocide.
Everything Palestine can throw at Israel, it’s justified. And I hope they do enough damage for Israel civilians to maybe think “hey, I don’t want this. Let’s get these warring fucks out of power and end this. Let me get out of this failed notion of a state, I don’t want to be a part of it, I don’t want to support displacing and killing off an entire people”. But it won’t. It’ll just do a bit of damage to retaliate against the genocide, just enough to maybe make 1-2 people feel like they avenged the many loved ones who died. And I think - good. If you’re gonna die anyway, if you’re doomed either way? Fuck them. Fuck those Nazi assholes. Take off as big of a chunk as you can. Make them bleed, to remind them they’re not invincible. Just as a last act of defiance before they finish you off.
I mean… judging by Israel’s response this comment is some special kind of delirious. I’ve thought the day it happened “Welp, Israel is respond in kind”. Not because I’m some geopolitical genius mind you, but because it was extremely obvious.
The only people on Hamas’ side are Netanyahu, the former Muslim Brotherhood, and Iran who all worked hard to keep Hamas well funded and in a position of authority. The important thing is to side with Palestine, not with Hamas.
Nah I’m fine with backing Hamas in this case, it doesn’t mean I’m home with entering they’ve done or do but I can say that for literally every country including my own.
It is though. They’re both terrorist states that opportunistically attack each other but one thing is factually different Israel has killed more civilians even before the festival attack and subsequent “self defense” ethnic cleansing.
Funny how you immediately assumed I approve of the actions of the Israeli government. Even more funny: given the choice between which baby killers to back you pick a side. I’m against killing babies.
Just pretend that Hamas are AZOV and that instead of Islamic hardliners trying to reclaim their country, they’re neonazi hardliners trying to reclaim their country. I’m guessing you’ll suddenly lose your aversion to picking a side.
Nah, you’re lying; you absolutely don’t apply that standard to the Russia/Ukraine conflict, let alone to something like WW2 (a lot of dead babies in Hiroshima)
Also, let’s see your evidence of Hamas killing babies.
“When did I say anything positive about the apartheid government? All I said was that Mandela and the ANC are evil terrorists who should be condemned!”
Far-right and “freedom fighter” are categorically opposing though. If you’re fighting to install a far-right government, you are fighting to implement authority and counteract freedom.
I don’t think fighting for freedom of your country is mutually exclusive with having far right views, also I’m not saying this about Palestinians or Hamas, but overall, the mere fact of fighting for freedom of your country isn’t even remotely related to ones political views, you can be on the whole political spectrum
Daily reminder that the word terrorism was only coined to prevent the obvious escalation when non violent protests are either ignored or put down violently.
When you’ve tried peaceful protest and nothing changes you only have one option left.
But you see, in a dialectical analysis, far-right terrorists like Hamas serve a progressive role by not being the US, and therefore deserve critical support by leftists who are definitely not crypto-fascists. —Marxist-Leninists
The PFLP has generally taken a hard-line on Palestinian national aspirations, opposing the more moderate stance of Fatah. It does not recognize Israel, and promotes a one-state solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, in a “democratic Palestine”, where “Arabs and Jews would live without discrimination”. The military wing of the PFLP is called the Abu Ali Mustapha Brigades.
I don’t disagree with this, but Hamas was created by Israel, and now Israel is bombing all of Gaza because of Hamas. It really seems like Israel has been planning this genocide for a loooong time.
Do you mean prior to the Israeli occupation of Palestine in 1967? Because I think it’s somewhat reasonable to be hostile towards an occupational force.
Not a gotcha I’m genuinely curious at what point in history you are referring to, apologies if it sounds antagonistic.
Not only an occupational force, but one extending colonial rule with arguably as bad or worse treatment of the native populace (and no, jews moving to Israel are not native to the land just because that was true a long time ago and they have a book telling them it is so).
So you’re saying Israel has a right to genocide Palestine because of the previous thousand years of history before 1967?
We can cherry pick timelines if we want to, but the fact is that Israel has occupied Palestine for the last 50 years. This is why Hamas exists, and this is the issue we face today.
The previous thousand years only serve as propaganda for modern Israel to be on board with the genocide.
According to the idf Israel removed themselves in 2005. But this is under heavy scrutiny from various human rights organizations.
“The United Nations, international human rights organizations and many legal scholars regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[5] This is disputed by Israel and other legal scholars.[75] They argue that occupation requires an actual, physical presence by a military force that maintains authority.
Following the withdrawal, Israel continued to maintain direct control over Gaza’s air and maritime space, six of Gaza’s seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.”
Well yes, they are well versed in history, right-wing politicians in Israel view the conflict on a biblical time scale and believe they are regaining their holy land. They are doing it as carefully and deliberately as they can, which is difficult and time consuming because they are supported by the West who mostly doesn’t want them to commit genocide. Without the support of the West, Israel would be much more likely to be defeated by the numerous enemies that surround them.
Loons, mostly. There's been a multi-talk page dispute on Wiki, for example, over internet twits removing a sourced 'anti-communist' descriptor from the Hamas page that had been there for a while, because they want to believe that Hamas is aligned with them so very terribly badly.
It’s a terrorist group defending their country from an invasion. Even North Korea has the right to defend their land. Even if I don’t agree with the way they manage their country, it’s their country.
Their political stance is totally irrelevant to me.
For me the issue is that Hamas already lost, and Israel is violating every single human right until Palestinians are exterminated using Hamas as an excuse.
Hamas needs to stop fighting, they are a piece of shit because they aren’t giving up. Israel has always been a piece of shit. The end.
But Hamas is far from the only militant group fighting the IDF. If they stopped fighting another group would be fighting the IDF. Palestinians fighting now view it as a struggle for the survival of their people and culture. Even if there was no organize military in Palestine fighting, many average Palestinians have been struggling against Israeli forces for decades, unaligned.
I agree but they need to stop. This is not helping them at all at this point. Israel has America’s backup. If the groups that are fighting don’t stop, Israel won’t stop.
They have stopped fighting before though and Israel continued their aggression. They have had marches and protests where IDF opened fire on groups of civilians, killing dozens. Israel won’t stop until Palestine doesn’t exist, they have been vocal about this position for years. They have continued to steal land, they have funded and propped up Hamas rather than more moderate groups specifically so they can have a better excuse to continue fighting.
The 2018–2019 Gaza border protests, also known as the Great March of Return (Arabic: مسیرة العودة الكبرى, romanized: Masīra al-ʿawda al-kubrā), were a series of demonstrations held each Friday in the Gaza Strip near the Gaza-Israel border from 30 March 2018 until 27 December 2019,[13][14][15] in which Israeli forces killed a total of 223 Palestinians.[4][13] The demonstrators demanded that the Palestinian refugees must be allowed to return to lands they were displaced from in what is now Israel.
223 killed, included 46 children, and over 9000 injured
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Anybody who trying to make Conservatives feel remotely guilty for being totally chill with a lot of people starving, being unhoused in unsanitary conditions and being denying life saving medical care because they are poor, foreign or inconvenient.
Authoritarian bogeyman who will destroy civilization via terrorism
Not a Republican
By the Conservative rubric of identifying communists we’re pretty much all weilding a hammer and sickle.
That part supporters of either group fail at is that neither Hamas or the Israeli government are worthy of support or in the right. One behaves worse than the other at the moment. But there can never be peace with those two in power. It’s a really fucked situation and my heart really hurts for the people caught in the crossfire of it all.
It seems that netanyahu bolstered hamas for years for political gain, and squashing any moderate palestinian activists, teachers or politicians. Like jailing them. What happened was really predictable.
And both of them are getting what they want, to be the kings of ashes.
Doesn’t justify the bombing of hospitals and civilians. Nobody likes Hamas but they’re the result of Israel’s illegal annexation of Palestinian territories and subsequent genocide.
What do you think the Palestinians who had their house and families expropriated, blown up and/or resettled by an Apartheid State will do? Not like/join the guys who want to get rid of Israel more?
Before Israel’s bombing campaign, Hamas wasn’t very popular among Palestinians, now however I assume Israel gave Hamas way more recruits.
The state of Israel is older than Hamas and Israel bombing Palestinians started before 7th of October 2023. I think the establishment of Hamas in 1987 and rising popularity till they got elected on Gaza in 2007 can be fairly attributed to Israel’s bombing, displacement and apartheid rule of civilians.
Hamas arose from ideology that has been around a long time, with a rich history of stoning women to death for learning math going back hundreds and hundreds of years.
Same goes the other way as well. The popularity of Netanyahu in Israel would also be much lower if he couldn’t use Hamas terror attacks to justify the need for a “strong leader”.
Last I checked his popularity ain’t doing so well.
Also may I remind you that the genocide of the Palestinians has been ongoing for far longer than the 7th of October and far precedes Netanyahu’s government. In fact it even precedes hamas.
Hamas is indisputably the enemy, the issue is that the tactics Israel uses to eliminate them also cause more civilian damage than should ever be acceptable. Often they target hospitals and schools where Hamas activity isn’t even confirmed, seemingly just to cripple infrastructure and kill Palestinians.
Exactly. They are making the same mistakes as the US in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you have 10 terrorists and you kill 5 of them, you have 30 terrorists.
Our greatest successes were when we helped put in infrastructure for the locals. In my global economics class in college, I remember that when a playground was put in a city, al-Qaeda militants were eventually seen playing on the structures. It’s a silly anecdote, but when you lift people out of desperate times, you lift them out of taking desperate measures.
Of course saying this terrorism is purely about economic hardship is only a part of the picture. There is a hatred against Jews that is widespread and isn’t going away anytime soon (especially for those countries still following the Khartoum resolution: No peace with Israel, No negotiation with Israel, No recognition of Israel), so there needs to be some hard power Israel needs to wield. Unfortunately BB has gone rogue and has decided to put all his chips on hard power and that won’t help.
“The enemy” of who? If a group is elevated to being an enemy due to the killing of civilians, the Israel government would easily meet that standard before Hamas.
Just because one side is bad doesn’t mean the other side is good. They can both be different flavors of bad. Just because hamas is bad doesn’t justify a genocide like Israel seems to think either.
Sometimes it’s not as simple as the good guys versus the bad guys. Just because one side is bad doesn’t mean everyone on the other side is good. There are multiple villains in this conflict and a lot of civilians suffering because of them.
It’s not ‘good guys vs bad guys’ but there is usually an aggressor and a defender in conflict. Did Palestinians, or Hamas, organize this conflict? Did they decide to unilaterally take territory and kill thousands of people on repeat over the last decades? Hamas fighters are Palestinian people, if they weren’t organized under Hamas they would be under a different banner fighting the same war.
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