@daringfireball bad take John. One should not be silenced through expulsion for speech. As your podcast cohost often says, speech is best combatted with speech.
@daringfireball Focus in all those answers is on your expelling argument, but I‘m ashamed that so many people think that Hamas actions are justified and saying it like that is free speech. Hamas did a terrible thing and this shouldn‘t be seen as an argument to call out Israel.
@daringfireball Not since you pivoted from calling Facebook a criminal organization to cheerleading Threads (after your podcast buddy got a chummy interview, of course) have I seen a pivot this wild from you. Apple might need someone else to pitch softballs to them next summer if you keep quoting the Washington Free Beacon.
@daringfireball I'm really surprised by the unseriousness of this argument, John. By decrying the "far left" you seem to be saying "I'm a centrist," so let me say first, "me too." The situation in Israel and Gaza is extremely complicated. Books have been, and will continue to be, written about how we got here (wherever "here" is at the time of publication). I disagree with anyone who says the situation is entirely Israel's fault. How can you justify making a turn from there to "these students should be expelled from college" for expressing their beliefs, no matter how misguided and wrong you think they are? That is a stunningly illiberal position. You're essentially endorsing the cancellation, to use the modern parlance, of these students, where they lose their job prospects and educational opportunities. Meanwhile, cancellation is a favored tactic of the "far left" you so ostentatiously call out.
I suppose it's fitting that a commentator whose livelihood depends on staying in Apple's good graces posted such a statement the day after they cancelled The Problem With Jon Stewart over an editorial disagreement about China. Tell me John, if you can: What happened in Tiananmen Square on June 4, 1989?
@daringfireball blew my mind seeing this jingoistic coverage. the linked story is a micro-outrage intended to provide cover for genocide, not a serious issue of concern.
right wing agitation on campus politics is Jordan Peterson territory
@daringfireball. Maybe take up your "words have meaning” scries with the innumerable "word people" who probably have thought about this before. Here's one:
"Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. You have done violence to him, consumed his energy.” -- Frank Herbert
He had no problem using the word “violence” to mean "doing harm”.
@daringfireball@gruber For someone I’ve looked to for many years for really insightful analysis, I have to admit this take is surprisingly close-minded and poorly informed.
Have you taken the time to read the statement in question? What about the letter, which seems cogent and rational, even if you disagree with one of the word choices. Calling for expelling students over one word choice in an organized group’s statement about the frustration of the outcome of a student being cancelled for expressing their point of view, which wasn’t even extreme radical (and which still stressed / emphasized on the horrific attacks against Israelis), seemingly justified by a right-wing rag that doesn’t even provide the source material, seems to be steeped in closed mindedness or simply bias.
Side with humanity, not leaders. The horrific killing of innocent people is terrible no matter who it happens to. My heart goes out to all involved, and none of the killing is justified or deserved.
@daringfireball
I agree with the take that redefining words leads to confusion and nonsense. But advocating for these students' expulsion is the essence of cancel culture.
These students attempting to redefine 'violence' aren't actually committing violence or advocating violence. What they're doing blaming Israel for Hamas' terrorism. Which you can argue is self-deluded and ignorant, but throwing kids out of school for holding deluded or ignorant beliefs is no way to promote education, much less the truth.
@daringfireball when your enemy is MLK's "negative peace, which is an absence of conflict, rather than a positive peace, which is the presence of justice", calling the abuse of a power imbalance "violence" is about the only way to get heard. And is it so wrong? Rescinding job offers, heck, promoting explusion, over a fairly milquetoast political statement, that you may happen to disagree with, it is real harm done to these people's livelihood and prospects.
@daringfireball “look I know you kids are broken up about all these dead people, but let me correct your language, and advocate for your expulsion” you are a cold, callous individual. What about the rest of the story, Gruber? Why do these kids feel so strongly? Care to mention that? Not your best, man.
@daringfireball I’ve been wondering about Mastodon since Twitter became a right-wing cesspool… Seems like a left-wing cesspool over here.
Does anyone doubt John similarly condemns the human rights violations of Israel against Palestinians? That people are reading that into what you wrote is absurd. But I suspect they know that; it just feels too good to be vitriolic and inflammatory and angry and righteous.
I guess you have to take your post down and resign, John!
@daringfireball@gruber Curious since you lived through 9/11. Were you similarly angry at people who said 9/11 was because of American foreign policy in Middle East for decades? Do you consider the Israeli occupation/American foreign policy in Middle East since 50s ‘violence’?
@daringfireball expelling the students for having an opinion? In a free and democratic country? A bit harsh and uncalled for, Gruber? You have been very quick to jump the gun on people who disagree with authority, and almost totalitarian and merciless in your suggested punishment. Ie your post about feedback https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/09/13/feedback where you suggested any employer should fire employees immediately if they dislike the word "feedback". What has happened to you?
@daringfireball Gruber- If the students you believe should be expelled were attending a public university their expulsion would absolutely run afoul of a little thing called the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. In as much as NYU is a private university expelling them wouldn’t violate the Constitution, but it would 100% violate the fundamental principles of academic freedom. Fighting illiberalism with more illiberalism is a pure douchebag move.
@daringfireball As a technology enthusiast and long-time reader I think everyone including technology writers – should talk about important social and political issues that should not be ignored.
But your take was terrible for all the reasons given by other responders to this thread. Yes, the young people in question, needs to maybe grow up a bit and develop more nuanced thinking. But to expel someone for immaturity or being ill-spoken is illiberal, as is advocating that they be expelled.
@rmischook Id certainly welcome retraction and sincere apologies in lieu of expulsion. But those views are incompatible with our culture and societal values.
@gruber@rmischook I think what many in these replies believe is that expelling someone for their words is also illiberal.
As someone who works on a university campus, the views often expressed by students all the way up to faculty are fairly wild and wide ranging in opinion. If you started ejecting individuals for their opinions you would bring the whole system down.
I must point out a looseness with words in the last paragraph of your article. The terrorist attack by Hamas did kill “1,300 innocent Israelis”, but did not “kill thousands of Palestinians”; it was Israel’s retaliatory airstrikes which killed thousands of [innocent] Palestinians.
I think this is important in a post about misuse of language.
Thank you for your writing. Daring Fireball is almost always thought-provoking, well-written and insightful.
@andrewf all of the Israelis killed were innocent. Some of the Palestinians killed in retaliatory strikes were. Maybe most, we don’t know. But not all. And that’s how war works.
@gruber@andrewf There’s a near-zero chance this will be effective but for selfish reasons (I want to keep following John and DF) I’d advise to back away, since strongly opining on what may be the most intractable conflict of our time will unnecessarily alienate a significant portion of your readership. Fine if you feel that strongly about dunking on immature or misguided college students’ sloppy use of language, but I don’t think it’s worth it.
@gruber
About 10x as many Palestinians as Israelis have been killed over the decades of the occupation. Generally, those Palestinians were killed by IDF attacks, and Israel has compulsory military service.
To put it bluntly, it’s all horrific, but there’s a much greater probability that an “innocent” Israeli killed in that attack was a soldier who had previously killed a Palestinian, than that a Gazan killed or left homeless in the retaliatory strikes had ever harmed an Israeli.
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