Are you suggesting that Israel should be bound by international law to not impose collective punishment, while the state of Palestine is killing and kidnapping civilians and clearly not hindered by it? Palestine is a hostile nation that just launched a bloody attack on civilians. Aren't the effects of a war typically felt by all members of a state participating in it?
Gaza is still accessible via Egypt, supply lines can still remain open. It seems absurd to suggest Israel should be forced to aid and supply a hostile state that is currently killing their civilians. A blockade seems appropriate to me given the circumstances.
Theoretically if Mexico invaded the US we should still keep supplying them with energy, food and water while they attack us because otherwise it's collective punishment?
Food and water can still get in via the Egyptian border, supply lines are still open. This isn't a mediaeval siege, if starvation were the goal no border crossings would be allowed.
Funny how in this conflict one side is expected to adhere to international law while the other side totally ignores it, intentionally attacks civilians, takes hostages, launches missiles indiscriminately at civilian centers, etc., If Israel adopted the tactics Palestine is willing to employ there would be no Palestine.
I would guess that Palestinian civilian death counts are significantly higher, as most of the fighting has been done within occupied Palestinian territories, civilian uprisings happen against the IDF often there, Israel can bomb targets in Palestine freely causing collateral damage while they are protected by the Iron Dome, Hamas and other such groups are fighting a guerilla war by hiding among civilians, and you wouldn't have brought it up were it not a huge ratio. 9:1?
With all the civilians they intentionally murdered the ratio is certainly moving in their favor now.
The only reason why I mentioned is of what seemed to be a disconnect from reality. Either that, or I just misunderstood.
Funny how in this conflict one side is expected to adhere to international law while the other side totally ignores it, intentionally attacks civilians, takes hostages, launches missiles indiscriminately at civilian centers, etc., If Israel adopted the tactics Palestine is willing to employ there would be no Palestine.
“if Israel adopted the tactics Palestine is willing to employ, there would be no Palestine”. How to you reconcile that kind of statement, when the ratio of dead children is 20:1?
“the other side totally ignores it, intentionally attacks civilians, takes hostages, launches missiles indiscriminately at civilian centers”
This here perfectly describes what Israel has been doing for 50 years, at a 20:1 ratio. So… if you were suggesting that this was what Palestine [sic] is to blame for… Is it?
Yeah Israel is expected to obey international law because it gets $3.8 billion a year in funding from the US to support their military. If Israel refuses to follow international law then the US is effectively giving that money to terrorists.
But the US doesn’t require Mexico to get running water and electricity from the US and refuse to let them build their own infrastructure or get it from anywhere else…
They should stop occupying the foreign hostile power that is presently attacking, killing, and kidnapping their civilians with guerilla attacks? Given that Hamas refuses to negotiate or make concessions in return, that sounds like bad game theory.
[Hamas's charter,] article 13, "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
Calling the native population foreign is certainly a take.
Are you saying Palestine isn't a state, or that Israel isn't a state? Because if they are two states as they claim, inhabitants of one are definitely foreign to the other.
Isreal is not a legitimate state. It is a colonial project occupying Palestine. The settlers are the foreigners as they have been in every other historical case of colonialism.
That "drive them into the sea"/don't recognize them attitude is what got us here in the first place. Like it or not there are millions of Israelis there now and they aren't going anywhere. Everyone must live with the consequences of the past even when it was unfortunate or atrocious.
The genocide of Palestinians is not in the past, it is ongoing. And they are displaced constantly to make way for more incoming settlers. You are simply handwaving genocide because it’s status quo.
And you are handwaving away the realpolitik because you have issues with unethical behavior in the past, presumably of Sykes-Picot and the British Mandate. I agree that this was terrible, however it's one thing to say the levant ought to belong to Palestine and the current occupants are illegitimate because of historical injustices, it's another thing to actually take control of it. That is not a viable option for Palestine although they seem to be willing to settle for nothing less.
The real tragedy is that the killing is perpetuated by people who were simply born into these places and had no hand in what you call colonial injustices, they are merely fighting for safety, life, and loved ones due to the irrevocable trajectory of the past and its causality. They become slaves to a past that many are unwilling to accept or see from another perspective. Every atrocity makes the other's point of view less accessible and justifies the next one.
At the end of the day, Palestine was defeated. They were defeated a long time ago. Until they are willing to accept this and make concessions for peace, the misery will continue. Israel isn't going anywhere, and they evidently have no leverage left but acts of terrorism that burns whatever goodwill they have remaining.
I don't like the fundies who are doing it or the way they treat the locals. They are clearly an encroachment on Palestinian territory, and I can understand why they represent an existential threat to Palestine and are such a point of contention.
I understand why Palestine loathes them, and why Israel ignores them. From the Israeli perspective ignoring them is good game theory. This is a reasonable, (but perhaps not ethical,) response to an enemy who refuses to negotiate a viable solution despite the realities of the situation. Unless Palestine comes to the bargaining table in good faith, willing to make some concessions, they will eventually lose everything. This puts continual pressure on them to do so, if they do not they will continue to lose territory. They have been overwhelmingly defeated time and time again but refuse to acknowledge this, leaving Israel with few viable options to deal with the threat that a hostile and belligerent Palestine represents. There's little else they can take from them but the land, and they still seem unwilling to compromise. This will either bring them to the table or leave them without a home, either way resolving the threat in their favor.
You don't think they don't care about losing land they will never get back? If this didn't matter to Palestine they wouldn't have cited it as a motivation for this attack.
If a nation states justification for violating such laws is that a terrorist organization is doing too, then they fucked up completely.
This terrorist organization, Hamas, runs the government in Gaza. They were elected in democratic elections in 2006 and no elections have been held since. This is an attack from a terrorist state, not an example of clandestine civilians acting on their own.
The Hamas is called a terrorist organization by Israel, most NATO countries and many others. It is the official language of the Western nations and neither Gaza nor Palestine ist recognized as a “state” by Israel or again most of NATO.
Adding more hypocricsy to the hypocricsy doesn’t make it better as a justification.
Terrorism is most obviously defined by attacks on civilians for political ends. Hamas, who is in charge of Gaza, just orchestrated the murder of 1000+ civilians. I'm at a loss as to how one can try to portray this as not a terrorist state. An EDM concert full of civilian youths is not a valid military target, this wasn't collateral damage, it was an intentional attack on civilians.
Is it any wonder NATO and Israel doesn't want to normalize relations with them?
Israel has announced a “total” blockade of the already besieged Gaza Strip, including a ban on food and water, after Hamas carried out the biggest attack on the country in decades.
Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said on Monday authorities would cut electricity and block the entry of food and fuel as part of “a complete siege” on Hamas-run Gaza, where about 2.3 million people live in one of the most densely populated areas in the world.
der crossing points; the third is controlled by Egypt.
“We are putting a complete siege on Gaza … No electricity, no food, no water, no gas – it’s all closed,” Gallant said in a video statement.
Israel’s chief military spokesperson, Daniel Hagari, told reporters on Monday that Israel has “control” of its communities following Saturday’s mass incursion of Hamas fighters into its territory.
Hagari said there had been some isolated incidents on Monday morning, but that “at this stage, there is no fighting in the communities”.
He added that “there might still be terrorists in the region”.
Israeli tanks and drones were guarding openings in the fence to prevent more infiltrations, Hagari said, adding that 15 of 24 border communities had been evacuated, with the rest expected to be evacuated over the next 24 hours.
Earlier, Hamas spokesperson Abdel-Latif al-Qanoua told The Associated Press news agency that the group’s fighters continued to battle outside Gaza and had captured more Israelis as recently as Monday morning.
He said the group aims to free all Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, which in the past has agreed to lopsided exchange deals in which it released large numbers of prisoners for individual captives or even the remains of soldiers.
This conflict has been bringing out the absolute worst in people. Lemmy is acting more civil than reddit, but fuck… it’s not great. I see why this subject is avoided.
The Israeli government has been waiting for an excuse to do this for years. Finally, they’ll get the land and homes of all the people who were there before them and the Western world will largely support them. It’s disgusting.
Everytime there is a war with Israel this is said. But yet it never happens… Israel control the area for a short time and gives it back when things calm down
I mean my job gives me a lot of free time too, but I usually spend it talking to people, reading, learbing something or even playing video games, fuck dude I even spend way too much time on lemmy too. You have so many other constructive options you could spend your time on instead of being a troll on niche social media.
Looking at their post history, I can’t figure out if they’re a troll, a propagandist, or are really just that stupid. I suppose it can be some combination of two or all three.
Or simply a bot to cause drama / increase engagement / because they can.
Maybe I’ve grown paranoid about the whole bot issue, but after I saw how people on Discord coordinate bots to fake entire conversations all of you are potentially non-human to me!
I think terrorists being killed is good for everyone on Earth.
I think the innocents who will suffer deserve every sympathy, and that all anger about innocent loss of life belongs squarely aimed at the terrorists who picked this fight
Hopefully the death of Hamas leads to radical shifts in Israeli policy toward Palestinians in general.
Their point whizzed right by your head and your being a condescending ass makes it even better. Take your own advice… or is reading comprehension hard for you?
The only prison you can leave, work in other countries from, vote for terrorists in before those terrorists canceled voting, and have autonomy in your daily life.
Oh and also purchase arms, break into a neighboring country, and murder their civilians, including beheading babies.
Hopefully they fully level it completely. Gaza shouldn’t be allowed to exist anymore.
I honestly think the two state compromise is no longer possible (something I strongly supported); we can all thank Hamas for that; they never wanted it either. They wanted Israel completely gone, and now instead it will be Gaza that gets wiped off the map.
I’ve no idea what will become of the civilians, but it likely won’t be good.
Edit: For those down voting me, why? Do you honestly see a better path out of this mess that doesn’t involve Hamas being utterly destroyed? Plus, none of the surrounding countries want Palestinian refugees because that means taking in Hamas sympathizers (did ya’ll forget what happened in Jordan as well?!). Wherever they go, they bring chaos.
You are wondering about downvotes? You are calling for the total destruction of Gaza which inadvertly murders or displaces over 2 million people.
Also putting the sole blame for the impossibility of a two state solution on Hamas ignores how Israel built more and more illegal settlemants on occupied territory to deny territory to a two state solution. Also the recent ramp up in IDF backed settler violence, the storming of the Al-Aqsua Mosque by Jewish fundamentalists and the genocidal rhetoric of Netanyahus coalition partners makes it evident that Israel didn’t want a two state solution long before the Hamas attack.
So if it’s a total blockade now, what was it before? (hint: it was also a blockade then, has been since 2007)
It’s saddening to see Israel’s military (which is not Israel) attack civilians and civilian infrastructure in retaliation for Hamas (which is not Palestine) having attacked civilians and civilian infrastructure- this is all a shit-show of punishing the innocent to get the other side to back down and it will never end.
Well it’s one thing to blockade a region during a war/conflict (which even has a border with Egypt) and killing and raping hundreds of festival attendees…
Eventually you have to stop letting your enemy make the rules, and defend yourself.
Well, it looks to me like both sides are convinced that unless they punish the other side, the other side will keep on doing what they’ve been doing. Acting on that belief only provides evidence for the other side for the case that the other will stop at nothing but the other’s extinction, that the only rational course of action is yet more offensive action until the other side finally capitulates- …which seems unlikely to ever happen so long as Palestine remains the accepted battlefield for the proxy war that this conflict is.
Yes, Hamas commits war crimes by using civilian infra Yes, Israel commits war crimes by bombing it The context of this exchange of atrocities is… the occupation of Gaza, which meets too many of the measures of a genocide. At this point, neither Israel nor Hamas are defending themselves, they’re cooperating in the genocide of Palestinians The broader context of that is that Israel:Palestine is a proxy conflict between their respective allies, who are just fine watching Palestine burn
ITT, no, you morally bankrupt Hamasaboos, not raping and murdering civilians is not white privilege.
Fucking Bougeyevik trash slime people, none of y’all can even read chat script, let alone speak any sham dialect to have even the vaguest clue about what you’re talking about from the actual Palestinian perspective.
I’ve been tracking the comments on all of this across various websites to see what people’s thoughts are. This genuinely might be the most contentious issue of our age. There are people who are vehemently pro Palestine and can dismiss the loss of civilian lives as’ what do you expect when people are pushed like this’ . Then others are hugely pro Israel and see this as an unprovoked attack by a terrorist group and any retaliation is justified.
I think everyone’s shitty here. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They use terrorist practices and target civilians. That’s a terrorist organization. There’s no discussion on that point. Israel is a right wing authoritarian state that regularly commits war crimes. The total Palestinian body count far exceeds the death toll from this attack by orders of magnitude so we can’t pretend like Israel was minding its own business and was attacked.
I don’t think you can point to one or the other as being the true hero or the true victim. It’s the greatest grey area of all time.
I absolutely condemn the Palestinians and Hamas for this act. I absolutely condemn the Israelis for their continued mistreatment and violence towards Palestinians. One will say they only act this way because of the behavior of the other. But at this point where does the original blame for all of it start and end.
The only thing that is certain is that there will be far more blood shed and every dead Israeli will be met with 10 dead Palestinians. I suspect this will be the turning point for this ongoing conflict. And in the future there may no longer be a Palestine as we know it. With the US protecting Israel no other Arab countries will dare intervene militarily. If the Israelis occupy Gaza it’s going to quickly become a quagmire with a never ending insurgency. It will be costly and in ten years Israel will be more unsafe then they were today.
There’s no good answers or good parties here. Just disgusting human nature and the consequences of half baked racist geopolitics from the 40s.
“In the beginning, some old British guy drew some lines on a map. This had made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - The first line to the history of many regional conflicts across the globe
Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration basically created the political climate of the Middle East.
Basically, the British and French decided that the Arabs were too stupid to figure out borders and squiggly lines that followed lame things like “shared cultural heritage” and “similar religious beliefs” were far too complicated.
I did some digging today because I was curious on what led to the Balfour Declaration, and what led to that, and so forth. The only thing I have to add here is there were geopolitics involving a separatist Ottoman sultan, and it seems the British wanted to create a sphere of influence for themselves in the area through a Jewish population (Catholic Church gave France influence, Orthodox Church gave Russia influence). Zionists were happy to work with them.
That begs the question then, how did the Zionist goal of a Jewish homeland start? The furthest I could trace it back to was Russian pogroms of Jewish migrants. The pogroms led a Jewish intellectual to contend that the only way for Jews to live freely and respected was an independent Jewish state. There was a zeitgeist of a enlightenment for Judaism at the time as well which asked questions about culture and religion and identity.
I have yet to go back further from there. It seems like oppression and discrimination against Jews during the middle ages could be a significant factor… and that would probably draw us back to the Romans in Jerusalem.
At this point, shit’s just fucked. The idea of a Jewish state, the creation of one, and what led to the originating idea span centuries and several nations. And having a Jewish state is central to this whole issue. I don’t think history has an answer for us here.
Which was influenced largely by the antisemitism of the West and the rise of Zionism for Jewish people which is partly radicalization as a response to thousands of years of oppression. But Brits were still in power with colonialism in full force.
That’s a foolish assumption. Plenty of countries have strong reasons to weaken Israel, and plenty of other countries have strong reasons to support them.
Russia and China are spreading as much propaganda about this as the the US and its allies, guaranteed.
Do you have LITERALY any proof for this or is this baseless assumption. I can tell you the PRC through there statements and actions are being PAINFULLY middle of the road in there efforts to remain nutral in the middle east, and I am sorry but russia is no supper power, and it also, as you may or may not know has bigger things to worry about than trying to propogandize over a war over opressed people who have been subjected to a genocide striking out.
Need I remind you the language that Isn’treal is using in relation to the Palistinians, or what they have done for the past decades. No only one side is mobilizing an astroturffed army, and it sure as hell is not the palistinan side.
FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALISTINE SHALL BE FREE
Do you mind clarifying at all, I mean I can make up my mind. Capitalism=bad Genocide=bad Opression in any form=bad, shall I contenue. I really live my life by a simple idea, anyone who trembles with indignation at every injustice is a comrade of mine. What Isntreal does is an injustice, and so I am opposed to it.
I might not be perfectly logically consistent, however atleast in this, and in thinking genocide is bad, I have been.
Modern day Russia is no commrade of mine, they are typical post soviet capitalist shills, so yes in that respect Russia is bad. Russia is also bad in there repression of the LGBT community, and you will not hear me or a comrade of mine disagree with this. However I am unaware of any genocide they are carrying out, if you could please point me to one I would be happy to share in my shaming of the Russian Federation and their genocide. I do want to point out the ongoing genocide Ukraine has carried out on the ethnically russians in the east, Ukrainian opression of minorities of any stripe and the LGBT community, as with political parties left of Facism.
As with China, I do not like the Republic of China and am willing to state so publicly at any opertunity presented to me. As for the Peoples Republic of China, While I will not say they are perfect, and if I felt you where willing to engage in a good faith discussion and not just quippy quote grabs, I would be more than happy to talk to you about my thoughts on the PRC. That being said they are Communist so I am not going to yell at them for that, do not engage in opression, (before you reply to this please follow your evidence chain and make sure it does not end at Radio Free Asia or any other CIA puppet) and same for genocide, they do not engage in genocide, Before you bring up the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, an audit by majority islamic nations said that no genocide had happened, and all evidence that does say that ends with RFA or another CIA puppet. Before you bring up that China is a one party state, it is not it has 8 parties the CPC wins a super majority in free and fair elections done by the law of the PRC. I mean it is truly interesting to read about, and agian I would be more than happy to talk to you about it
If you where able to provide evidence on this I would, however everything about the Uyghurs has been traced back to RFA with no other evidence, and This is genuinly the first time I am hereing about the kidnapping of Ukrainian Children and I would love a source so I could read more on it.
Which is why the Palestinians need to recognise the writing on the wall decades ago and pushed to settle somewhere else where it isn’t a lost cause. They can’t just keep turning their people into combatants and not expect to be suppressed for it.
Israel isn’t going anywhere, it will take more than the Middle East to force them and even then, they already have nukes.
You know why their passport is weak? Because everywhere they went and got absorbed into the general population, they fermented revolution against the country they were in.
They did it to themselves.
It’s clear that Palestinians are not interested in peace with Israel, so why ask for help?
Ahh, the good old “Ukraine should make territorial concessions for peace” style of “argument”…
Because history has shown that conceding territory to Israel or Russia is such a great way to stop them from coming again later, killing more people and “be willing to stop” for more territory.
Where exactly are the Palestinians supposed to settle? The Israelis took their land, homes, and businesses, so a great many Palestinians are impoverished. Many can’t afford to move. It’s not like the Palestinian government can just purchase land and build new cities elsewhere as it’s poor too. If the Palestinians were to all move to any other country, they’d largely be refugees, reliant on their host country for food and shelter, which is a huge financial drain. Who is going to take and care for all of them?
And if they were to move, Israel would take over the evacuated area. It’ll be enough for awhile, but the population is ever growing. Who will Israel invade next?
Didn’t the Palestinians also “evict” all Jewish people? They went to Israel because they were refugees. It was about the same amount of people who fled from both sides. The only difference is that Palestinians grew from under a million refugees to more than 5 million by now. That is why they want Israel. Where would you have the Jewish people go? The Hamas want all Jews gone.
That’s the biggest pile of regurgitated Israeli propaganda I’ve seen yet. People existed in the Palestine area before the beginnings of the formation of Israel. Said formation was largely begun by the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, which resulted in waves of Jewish immigrants into Palestine. Israel was officially created in 1948 by the Israeli Declaration of Independence.
So, to simplify it - Palestinians lived in Palestine. The United Nations declared support for a Jewish “national home” in Palestine, a place already occupied by Palestinians. Lots of settlers moved to the area and began to displace Palestinians, causing tensions between the two groups. Israel declared its Independence in 1948. Supported by the United Nations, Israel continued to displace Palestinians and expand the borders of Israel, evicting Palestinians from their homes to be replaced by Israeli settlers. Rinse and repeat for nearly eighty years, interspersed with Israel playing the victim and acting surprised their continued genocide of the Palestinians has resulted in the formation of terrorist groups.
Can you give me a source for your side on this? Because on Wikipedia they describe it quite differently.
And also, aren’t these actual quotes from the Hamas covenant?
Palestine is an Islamic land… Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be.
[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement… Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam… There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.
Yep, here are articles. As to the motivation for war, it absolutely has antisemitic elements, but I was never disputing or even discussing that. I’m simply refuting the commonly spread propaganda that the Palestinians are somehow ungrateful refugees looking to take the Israeli’s land. It’s pretty well the other way around.
And if they were to move, Israel would take over the evacuated area. It’ll be enough for awhile, but the population is ever growing. Who will Israel invade next?
That is so bad faith. There is plenty of dessert left to expand into.
Where exactly are the Palestinians supposed to settle? The Israelis took their land, homes, and businesses, so a great many Palestinians are impoverished. Many can’t afford to move.
A great start would be to stop all this militant jihad nonsense and concentrate on stability and engaging with the Israeli economy. If you keep having thoughts of causing harm to Israel, why would anyone on their side want to employ you people.
Lol, “you people”. I think we’ve found an Israeli apartheid supporter.
If there’s so much “dessert” to go around, why don’t the Israelis fuck off and go there instead? The Palestinians were there first, they’re the invaders.
Nope, the Israelis and Palestinians have claims to the region and the Israelis did historically live there during Ottoman times. The Palestinians don’t have a better claim than the Israelis.
Also, Israel built infrastructure to make the dessert livable. That’s not free.
Palestine lost the war, they should stop being belligerent so that Israel can trust them to not be terrorists. That’s the whole reason why there’s an apartheid. They’ve made their bed for themselves.
who lived somewhere hundreds of years ago matters little compared to who lives in a place for the last few generations, as it is those people who get displaced in these kind of things, not the people who lived during the time of the Ottomans
Mhm, so the historical claims of so many countries about this shallow should be at risk too huh.
Also, did we forget that the British promised both Palestine and Israel these lands? Palestine tried to wipe out the Israelis and they and their allies have been on a losing streak ever since. That includes the loss of land in a conflict. You know, consequences.
Frankly, the history of the area is not an excuse in my book. Some child born to Palestinian parents can have had no part in any of that, why should they have to face consequences for the circumstances of their birth?
And yes, I don’t buy the whole “our country owned this land a hundred years ago so we should be able to take it and evict the people who grew up and live there now” kind of arguments where they apply to other countries too, but those are not the current subject of argument, Israel and Palestine are.
I don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea here, I’m not saying this to defend Hamas or anything, but punishing a civilian population for the actions of a terrorist organization that lives in the area is both morally wrong and foolish, it will drive more of those ordinary people to join the terrorists, out of desperation or desire for revenge.
It’s amazing the mental gymnastics that pro-Israel propagandists will go through to justify the genocide of an entire people. By your shitty logic, I should be able to go back to my childhood home, kill a few of the people who live there now, and feel justified moving in with the survivors, taking over a bedroom or two. It was mine before, after all, and I never agreed to sell it to them. I’m not responsible for the actions of my parents, right?
I would then play the victim when the survivors fight back as I systematically drive the rest of the household out and replace them with my friends and family. Then we’d start taking over neighbor’s houses. Sure, we didn’t live there before, but we’re a growing community and I’ll play off the retaliation of the first household as indicative of their “sub-human” nature. It was always my house, they were just squatting there so how dare they fight back. When the neighborhood gets fed up with our bullshit and starts burning our houses down, we’ll collectively pull a “surprised Pikachu face” - we didn’t do anything wrong, there’s no way this could have been foreseen, much less prevented!
I suspect this will be the turning point for this ongoing conflict.
Agreed.
And in the future there may no longer be a Palestine as we know it.
Yea, I don’t think the two-state compromise is even possible even more. Israel won’t tolerate even letting Hamas stick around, so Gaza will be leveled. As for what will happen to the civilians; I’ve not a clue.
It never was possible. Israel’s goal from the jump was an ethnostate with control of all the land recognized as “Israel” from the time of the old testament. Anything else is failure to them.
Pretty much the only unbiased take anyone can have. Both sides f*cking suck. I disagree that this is the turning point tho. We’ve been here before and we’ll stay here until both sides come to the table and actually discuss a peaceful resolution to the conflict. It’ll never happen with hamas so they have to go. It’ll never happen with the current Israeli government so they need to be replaced with more diplomatic leaders. Neither is gonna happen tho, the continued conflict just puts more dependence on the bad actors that keep escalating it. Honestly I see hamas cracking before Israel softens but who knows if or when that’ll happen. I wouldn’t be surprised if this conflict continued far beyond my lifetime.
Turning point, no, but I can see this being, in retrospect, an erm fulcrum point. Like what 9/11 did to the US, where the question “why do they hate us”, besides further idiocy, also led to some legitimate insight into how the US’ actions affect the world and provoke reactions, similarly the notion “we bred that monster” might get some more wide-spread traction in Israel.
…and yes this very much is a 9/11 moment for Israel, worse, actually. Caught completely on surprise, the most Jewish deaths and that in a short time-span since the Holocaust, much larger percentage of the population, it’s definitely a defining moment.
This is why I mainly blame the US and Europe at this point.
Both sides in this situation are controlled by the most disgusting kind of sociopath and the only way to stop this is real (with teeth, not just bullshit talk) international pressure on both sides.
Instead there is real pressure on one side only, by declaring Hamas a terrorist organisation (which they are), whilst without pressure on the other side, the boot of Israel on Palestinian necks creates every day new people with nothing to lose, for whom joining an internationally labelled terrorist organisation is an actual step-up from their situation.
So the worst kind of Israelis have nothing to lose from joining the military or colonates and stealing from and murdering Palestinians because there are zero international sanctions on it, the Israeli authorities fully support it and they have overwhelming force, whilst the worst kind of Palestinians have nothing to lose from joining Hamas and murdering Israelis because they have nothing to lose since the actions of the above mentioned Israelis have made their baseline situation be “a life of misery treated as less than human” and even made any organisation that resists Israel (even one as bad as Hamas) be relativelly prestigious and an actual step-up for many in that environment.
Unless the “solution” envisioned by US and European leaders is genocide of the Palestinians, then both sides have to be put in a situation were they do have something to lose by doing what they’ve been doing and that means keeping on the pressure on Hamas and extending the sanctions to the Israeli government.
Why are you blaming just US and Europe? Why do Russia and China get a free pass? Russia gives support to Iran and Iran directly supports Hamas. China deliberately plays both sides while doing nothing to fix the situation. Nobody is actually trying to fix the whole situation but somehow only US and Europe are to blame. I’m not against being critical of the EU and US (there are things to be critical about), but let’s not act like they’re supposed to be the world police. We have other countries who could also work towards a solution, ideally in cooperation with US and EU, but they seem to be more interested in blaming “The west” than actually solving the issue.
It’s because most people on Lemmy are from those US, EU, or “commonwealth” countries, so that’s about all we have influence over. Also Russia and China’s democracies are not looking so hot these days… what kind of pressure is a citizen of one of those countries expected to have anyway.
In my country I can go to a government building and take a huge dump on a picture of our elected leader, and I may get thrown in jail, but I’ll probably be released after a slap on the wrist.
It goes back even further than that when you look into why Zionists wanted a Jewish state in the first place. I did a deep dive today trying to figure out the origin of the conflict and the original victims and aggressors, and I ended up in Revolutionary Russia before calling a quits for the day.
I don’t know what an ideal solution is at this point, nor what an actually viable solution would be. I wonder if it would even be better for the issue to not end instead of continuing on the path it’s on. The way things are going, the only place we’ll end up is with one of the sides completely wiped out. :/
I suspect this will be the turning point of tbe conflict. I don’t know that we are going to walk Israel back from the full on attack.
The reality is as long as there are Palestinians alive there will be a terrorist network operating in their ranks. Israel could offer an olive branch and stop their oppression of the people but that hatred runs deep and it won’t be long before there’s another attack and we are back to where we started.
There’s no good solution at all. There’s only the question of when does a military action in response to a terrorist act swap from righteous retribution to a genocide. Because short of genocide the Israelis can do nothing but occupy the territory and deal with an insurgency which will only breed more terrorists as all the fatherless sons grow up hating Israel and want to enact their revenge.
At this point a forced migration might be the option with the least bloodshed, as repulsive as it is. Then you run into the problem though that Palestinians are still shunned by the Arab world because being them being Muslim isn’t enough to override antisemitism from their nationality.
Ironically I think we might need another mandated “this region is now the home of Palestinians” like with Israel if they’re going to have a peaceful place to live.
For the record I don’t like any of these solutions. But like you said we’re quickly approaching the point where Israel may permanently end the conflict through the genocide of the Palestinians, and that’s the absolutely least desirable outcome.
I am not sure they understand what total means. Hamas didn’t get those rockets from Israel - hense there must be an unmonitored way in from Egypt that Hamas controls.
If there is, all food comes now from Hamas = Palestinians support Hamas more. If that gets cut, videos of mass starvation will eventually pull other Muslim countries into the conflict.
That’s what Israel wants. They want Iran to get pulled in and then further justify asking the West for more military aid and “support” to launch another “war” in it’s “defense”. Fucking terrorist regime in power unfortunately for Palestinians and Israelis.
Iran literally funds terrorists and advocates for the destruction of Israel
Israel could invade and conquer Iran tomorrow and they have not.
Iran’s military is as much a bungling shit-show as Iraq, Russia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. There is no universe in which Israel needs US help to shatter Iran.
Last time Iran even got close to enriching weapons-grade uranium, Israel launched airstrikes and flattened the plant, completely uncontested and without any reprisal from Iran, who knows they can’t win.
I doubt Israel could just invade and conquer Iran like that. Having superior equipment is one thing, but actually invading a place will inspire a population to fight against you more than almost anything else, and Iran is a mountainous country that has a population close to 10 times that of Israel. Actually occupying and holding a country like that for any length of time would be a nightmare even for a power like the United States (consider how Afghanistan ended), let alone Israel. They could maybe win a conventional engagement with their superior equipment, sure, and they could do tremendous damage to Iranian infrastructure with bombs or even nukes if they really wanted, but thats not the same as conquering a place.
Foreign invasion tends to cause people to rally around their government, or at least put internal conflicts on the backburner, historically, I’d imagine such a strategy would stand a serious chance of actually preventing any revolution that might otherwise take place.
You really seem to know nothing about the geopolitics of the region. Iranians were put in that position when the regime was much weaker, and everyone united against the invader. Iranians are not likely to welcome anyone who tries to invade as an invasion inevitably massacres civilians, and foreigners killing Iranian civilians won’t be popular with you know, Iranian civilians.
“Israel could invade and conquer Iran tomorrow and they have not.”
Why haven’t they then? Why hasn’t the US? Ever heard of millenium challenge 2002 for example? Invading Iran is not as easy as you seem to think. Iran has a geography that makes invasion very very difficult, strong natural defences. It would have otherwise been already invaded.
US doesn’t because it isn’t politically feasible, domestically or abroad
Israel doesn’t because they’re trying to normalize relationships with neighboring countries, and have had a lot of success, which is why Iran funds Hamas.
Iran’s army is hot garbage and their terrorist government is barely clinging to power as it is.
Likely Israel is planning to gain control of the border with Egypt to cut off anything coming in that way, and either annexing that border strip outright or maintaining control of the border will be part of the peace terms.
Irrespective of stopping the movement of new arms and missiles into Gaza, more hawkish israelis would probably salivate over being able to shut down all trade into Gaza every time they shoot off missiles, especially since every time they do it weakens confidence in being able to trade into Gaza, raising the costs for anyone trying to import anything into Gaza, and lowering the sell value of any goods made in Gaza.
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