nuanceposting rule

seen this post elsewhere? click for explanationThis post got banned from !memes for reason “Troll Posting” which is Very Disrespectful in my opinion. 😕 I mean this meme with full respect and love to my fellow community members and I was proud of the discussion and support it was creating. EDIT: POST RESTORED YAY. (Thank you to the mods it turned out to be a misunderstanding.)

:::spoiler Important clarification/FAQ I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!

I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :) :::

Very good comments that express key points:

ZILtoid1991,

I was “groomed” into the far-right around 2006-2010, and I have to say progressives always understood me much better than anyone on the right. Best the right could do is blame my single mother for remarrying to an abusive jerk due to financial necessity, my father for not taking me with himself to my also abusive stepmother (my actual parents also needed a lot of self-reflection to be at least tolerable), and of course the same scaremongering and Jordan Peterson-level life “advices” that are popular today. They were way more transparent about not understanding gaming and the likes, unlike today’s right that pretends to care about it with its gamergates and similar culture war talking points.

spujb,

Thanks for sharing that experience wow!

And welcome back to the cool as hell, progressive, respecting of human dignity club 💖🙂‍↕️🐺💪 we missed you

rxin,

What was the original hypothetical question? “Would you rather be stuck camping with a man or a bear?” Or is it “young man”? Or “creepy man”? I’m browsing the comments on all these threads and I’m just so confused.

spujb,

If you were alone in the woods, would you rather encounter a bear or a man?

DAMunzy,

I get their reasoning but seeing every other TikTok being about it (either women against men or men crying about when picking bears) is just too much. It seems too much about picking a side now and no discussion is happening. I just block anyone that pays about it on TikTok.

spujb,

i totally understand that experience, as i’m sure do many others! ❤️

your emotional response to all of this is valid because it’s a very emotionally heavy topic. through all of this, it’s really important to listen to one another. the patriarchy has existed for millennia, and that generational trauma isn’t going to magically dissipate for either end of the gender spectrum.

if you are interested, i have been encouraging folks to look into !mensliberation, which i think has been and can be a good spot for folks to voice their experiences in a supportive setting.

rxin,

Honestly this just leaves me more confused. Maybe it’s just where I live. People I would find in the woods? Hikers and foragers mostly, usually in their 50s likely minding their own business. Though, no chance of a bear here.

spujb,

i’m with you haha, it’s not a rhetorically great meme. at the root it’s just important to listen to what women are expressing by saying they’d choose the bear, but best not to try to double down on the hypothetical or take it personally. :)

rxin,

Good point, thank you ^^

franklin, (edited )
@franklin@lemmy.world avatar

Everyone has a right to be heard.

Everyone has a right to their pain.

Someone else’s pain being acknowledged and addressed does not invalidate yours.

Comparing pain leads only to a race to the bottom when we should all be lifting each other up.

HauntedCupcake,

Acknowledging someone’s pain also makes it easier to understand their motives, find common ground, and love forward together

spujb,

love forward

wait i love this actually i don’t know if it was a typo or not and honestly i don’t care this is such a beautiful phrase

bolexforsoup, (edited )

Look, everyone knows you catch more flies with honey and all of that, but you are kind of conflating a lot of issues here. When it comes to the Internet, there is a very serious right wing problem. There are groups who run around trying to drive wedges into communities and sowing dissent wherever possible. It is deliberate action, not some friendly disagreement or differing opinions. When these people come out and say things like “women are just as bad as men“ anytime sexual violence is brought up, which is categorically untrue, there has to be pushback or these ridiculous notions get normalized and internalized.

Somebody comes to me curious to learn more, or just seems to have a flawed notion of something, I will generally have a gentler approach. But that is not what is happening on these threads that you are probably responding to with this meme.

White men get to go on cable news and YouTube etc and scream and rant about all the conspiracies they are afraid of every day. About how trans people are destroying their country. How all women lie about sexual assault and men are the actual victims not women. No one bats an eye, this is normal. But some women support a meme about how they don’t feel safe around men, using a bear as a kind of humorous example to make it stickier, and everyone loses their damn mind! They immediately make it their mission to prove them wrong because to open up this issue and discuss it would be to admit there’s a problem that needs to be addressed. And that just does not work for some people.

Also, a lot of communities remove posts for a lot of reasons. It is not disrespectful that they removed your post and complaining elsewhere about it is not productive. No one is out to get you, you probably violated the rules of a community. Rules you didn’t look at very closely.

spujb,

When these people come out and say things like “women are just as bad as men“ anytime sexual violence is brought up, which is categorically untrue, there has to be pushback or these ridiculous notions get normalized and internalized.

Absolutely agree. Please do this :)

bolexforsoup,

What I’m trying to say is your meme is bundling in those responses with “stop pushing back against right wing shit bags.” They don’t need to be coddled. They need a firm “no.” There’s actually a lot of my response that you kind of didn’t respond to - I’m guessing you wrote this meme partially as a reaction to the “I would rather come across a bear than a man in the woods” meme right? It’s too mean and blaming? Or am I missing the mark here?

I guess what I would like to see is clarification on why you wrote this

spujb,

See my other comments for a very full and nuanced explanation. I didn’t respond to your comment in full because there is a level of accusation that I don’t have the emotional bandwidth for right now. Example:

Stop pushing back against right wing shit bags.

This is you forcing words I would never say in my mouth. Please be kind and mindful of what you are doing to me. I don’t want to be an ass and block you but this is incredibly mean.

My actual position: Push back hard against right wing shit bags. At the same time, be mindful that very young men, often age 10-20, are still malleable and incredibly succeptible to the right wing antifeminist propaganda machine, and we have the opportunity to do better than last generation by getting those children on our side. Fuck fascist misogynist pigs though and never coddle them.

I hope this doesn’t come off too mean, it is just very tiring to be ~ told what I believe ~ by people who might ordinarily agree with me.

bolexforsoup, (edited )

I did not say you said that. I’m saying a lot of stuff is bundled implicitly because we don’t know what spurred your post and we don’t know who you’re talking to, it’s very broad and it - whether intentionally or not - tells everyone to stop. Which is why I asked for clarification on what spurred this on. I’m not going to go poking around the thread looking for every response that you wrote to piece together your point and I didn’t accuse you of malice. Clearly your intentions are good and I thought you wanted a discussion. But you’re now getting heated with me when you are the one who created this whole post and subsequent threads in the first place as you say “I don’t have the emotional bandwidth for this discussion.” I mean honestly why did you do this then? What did you expect would happen? It was clearly a grenade from the get-go.

Edit (rewrote this to make more sense): I mean ultimately this post is shaming people man. That’s the framework. You’re saying “stop being mean to misunderstood and confused men,” which feels reductionist and like you’re saying we are the problem, not the people saying and doing heinous things online and beyond. Again, because you’re being very broad. I am all for compassionate approaches and educating but this post isn’t that dialed in or nuanced. And using Pepe - a major right wing symbol unfortunately because some folks don’t know this and the creator sure didn’t intend it - muddies the water as well.

spujb,

Hey. Other commenters in this post are getting my point just fine. I am sorry that you refuse to read their comments, but that is a decision you made, not me. I don’t owe you a personalized breakdown of every misconception you are having the moment you bring it to the table, nor does anyone else, especially if you refuse to peruse a few threads.

That said, I hope other commenters who have more time than me can help you out. For my part this conversation between us is over.

bolexforsoup, (edited )

This comment is pretty antithetical to the purported spirited of your post but that’s your business man. If you trumpet a lecture on a public forum you need to be ready for a few folks to disagree. Burying your head in the familiar sand of those who agree with you while ignoring those who don’t is an interesting choice when you’re trying to tell us to be gentler and listen, but again, that’s your choice.

I hope those of us who disagree with you - which I am not alone in - maybe get you to consider the vague possibility that there are some elements of your post that perhaps need retooling. Some people agreeing with you doesn’t mean you’re right.

Have a good one.

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

everyone knows you catch more flies with honey and all of that

The best part of this metaphor is that it’s incorrect. You catch more flies with vinegar than honey.

bolexforsoup,

I did not know that and that is actually kind of funny lol

barsoap,

Rotten fruit smells of vinegar and they’re attracted to that that’s why. If you want to get rid of fruit flies (It happens, no need to be ashamed) the usual trick is a glass of diluted vinegar with some soap added to lower the surface tension so the flies can’t Jesus all over it.

Bees and wasps and stuff, though, you can catch a lot of those with honey.

Pretzilla,

When it comes to the Internet, there is a very serious right wing problem

AKA mostly Russian trolls pushing for division and ultimately civil war, and CCP trolls doing their thing, depending on the issue.

bolexforsoup, (edited )

In addition to radicalized Americans, usually men, yes.

deaf_fish,

How does the man/bear discussion disenfranchise and antagonize young men?

On top of not being a creeper, you also need to bathe regularly to get a chance at a date.

Does the fact that you have to bathe regularly antagonize and disenfranchise young men?

I would argue the man/bear thought experiment gives young men a useful look inside the average womans life that they wouldn’t have had otherwise.

Ookami38,

One of these things (bathing) is a trait you can have, and change. The other (maleness) is one that you cannot (reasonably, for most people) change.

It’s easy enough to be told “I don’t want to interact with you because you smell” - I can change that with just a bit of effort. It sucks to hear “I’d rather interact with a bear, because you’re a male.” That’s something I have no control over. You’re telling me that a fundamental aspect of my existence means that I’m a threat to you, and that I can’t be trusted around.

Quite simply, replace “man” with “black person” and try the whole experiment again, you’ll probably see how gross the argument is.

deaf_fish,

Your feelings are valid, but so are women’s. If 1 out of every 6 of my friends got shot by a black person, then I would rather be in the woods with the bear instead of a black person. Now, does that justify treating black people badly and avoiding them, no. You can have a feeling and understand why it is bad and racist and not act on it. Do women avoid men, no. Feelings are not the same as actions. You can be afraid of what might happen while going out on a first date with a man.

The outcome man/bear thought experiment never said that all men are bad/rapists.

Can you change it, yes. But it is harder (societal changes).

  1. Make sure your male friends understand consent. The 1 out of 6 number is how many women who have experienced sexual violence against them.
  2. I know a lot of women watch crime scene investigations. Maybe throw some real statistics about crime in those shows, so that women don’t get the idea that there is a murderer around every corner.
boo_,
@boo_@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I don’t read this as the discussion disenfranchising young men, rather just stating that the broader disenfranchisement of the working class has its effect of making many men vulnerable to far right rhetoric of a day where many white cis-het men did not have to try, like at all (at least, that’s the rhetoric).

I read this as saying that we need to counter these societal issues on multiple fronts; not pandering to right-wing men, while also not letting the far right rhetoric take hold of younger men. Offering a good alternative which actually helps them (leftism) instead.

spujb,

Exactly this. ^^^ Excellent expression of my position, thanks homie :)

deaf_fish,

I see, I may have misinterpreted it.

recklessengagement,

I was wondering where this post went. I was so confused when it dissapeared - someone in the comments had mentioned a community called “nuance posting” or something and I was trying to find it :\

spujb, (edited )

yeah that was me 😭 the community doesn’t exist but itd be cool if it did

ArmokGoB,

We should all post this there.

spujb,

no do not brigade

i appreciate your sentiment but i am not calling for a brigade

SharkEatingBreakfast,
@SharkEatingBreakfast@sopuli.xyz avatar

Know what tipped me off that Lemmy really doesn’t get nuance?

There was an article about a ride-share / taxi company that cateted to women and provided drivers who were also women, to make them feel safer getting a ride.

The comments were absolutely venomous, calling it out as “sexism” and how “what’s to stop me from identifying as a woman and calling? They can’t refuse me!” which… fuckin’ oof.

But I figured out why they’re upset: because they want people to be treated equally instead of acknowledging that some people have different needs that may require extra services to level the playing field.

Equality vs. Equity.

franklin, (edited )
@franklin@lemmy.world avatar

Wait Cabracadabra is real!?

I agree with your comment though, taking special care for vulnerable populations is important and when in a privileged position can (incorrectly) feel like exclusion.

I think young men who are at a particular vulnerable and formative age seek community and to make their impression on the world.

That feeling has been weaponized by alt-right influencers to start a culture war in order to stifle class conflict.

spujb,

💯💯💯

Kedly,

The fact that is post got removed for trolling is exactly why my feelings towards the bear meme have evolved from annoyed to “Reminded of the multiple times women have attempted to use cops as a weapon against me”

TheFriar,

This has happened to you multiple times? In what type of situation does this happen to you?

Kedly,

One of the times I was living with an overly controlling roommate who was trying to control who I dated and what I ate, when I started making clear that they did not get to dictate who I dated and what I ate, they started picking fights over smaller and smaller things. This culminated in them screaming at me through the door as I was showering that I needed to stop showering without first turning the bathroom fan on, and when I told them to leave me alone they opened the bathroom door and turned it off themselves. I was not and had never been in a romantic relationship with this woman so I ended my shower as fast as I could and tried to escape to my room while she proceeded to scream at me. She continued to follow me into my room and I had to physically push her out of my room and use my body as a barricade against the door to stop her from getting in. Eventually when she couldnt push her way in she said “Fuck it, I’m doing it” and called the cops to say “SHE” felt unsafe. I called a friend, shaking, and they came to get me. And from that point I never entered that building alone again, and only came back to get what few valuables I didnt want to leave behind

Soulg,

Bad people who happen to be women, know that they will be given the benefit of the doubt, and can 911 during an argument

spujb,

Holy shit I am so sorry this happened to you!?! That is not cool.

ACAB and also abusive women can kick rocks

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

I saw your post and don’t think it should have been removed, let alone banned, but I don’t think you did yourself any favours in the comments. You kept asserting it as fact that there is a huge problem with silencing SA survivors, and when asked to give evidence, the only thing you had was three comments in the same thread, where the one sexist guy was being downvoted and the multiple people correcting him were upvoted. Not good evidence of a systemic problem.

(Ironically, you now do have that evidence, in the form of your ban.)

spujb, (edited )

Literally no. Entirely different post you are referencing, one that is still up in fact.

Many of the votes reversed after I made this post due to brigading. Careful, you are spreading a bit of misinformation here, dude. :)

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

You are being very deceitful here, dude

Wow, rude. An honest mistake is not deceit.

Are you sure the one that got taken down wasn’t just because you were being an arse to people for no reason, like you are here?

Anyway, I’m glad the one I saw did not get you removed or banned. As I said, it wouldn’t have deserved that.

spujb, (edited )

Sorry if this was an honest mistake I apologize. Edited my comment

I have gotten no shortage of personal insults for trying to be kind and fair over the past day so I hope you understand why I jumped to being defensive in this situation too.

Thank you for your kind words and I hope you have a good one ✌️

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

Peace, friend. ✌️

SuddenDownpour,

This post got banned from !memes for reason “Troll Posting” which is Very Disrespectful in my opinion. 😕

I find it really disrespectful as well since it was one of the most productive and well tempered OPs on this whole drama arc, at least on Lemmy.

ObviouslyNotBanana,
@ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world avatar

I agree. That doesn’t mean women should step back to please men, rather that we all as a society need to take the problem of disenfranchised men as the serious issue and long term threat to stable society that it is. This doesn’t mean that we need to fight them, just communicate to them in a better way.

spujb,

Excellently written!

ObviouslyNotBanana,
@ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world avatar

Thank you.

Kalkaline,
@Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

Dudes need to sack up and realize there’s a lot of dudes out there that are creepy. It’s up to you as a stand up dude to call these creepy dudes out when they act up. Women don’t owe you anything, you stand up for them because it’s the right thing to do, and not because you want sex.

beardown,

Muslims need to sack up and realize there’s a lot of Muslims out there that are creepy. It’s up to you as a stand up Muslim to call these creepy Muslims out when they act up. Normal people don’t owe you anything, you stand up for them because it’s the right thing to do, and not because you want acceptance.

barsoap,

Yes but do you condemn Hamas.

explodicle,

But people actually choose to support a book that suggests stoning gay people to death. It’s not an inherent part of what you are.

spujb,

Being a model and force of positive masculinity is chad, sigma-pilled, and hot as hell. 🙂‍↕️🥵🐺💪

Mongostein,

Telling dudes to sack up is toxic masculinity. I thought we were against that.

Kalkaline,
@Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

Not in the context of the statement. If I punched them in the shoulder and said “sack up and don’t rub it” that would be toxic, sure. Instead I’m saying sack up/man up and have a higher level of emotional intelligence which is not exactly a classic toxic masculinity trait.

Mongostein, (edited )

What you’re telling men is that they shouldn’t talk about how the constant referral to creepy men/douchebags as simply “men” does have a negative effect on the mental health of normal men and the way women perceive them.

deaf_fish,

Nothing wrong with masculinity. Toxic masculinity is what we are against.

Mongostein,

Thanks for mansplaining

deaf_fish,

I was just trying to be helpful. No need to attack me for it.

bolexforsoup, (edited )

You corrected them then had the gall to accuse them of mansplaining them when they responded lmao are you fucking joking? You can’t be serious.

Mongostein, (edited )

They aren’t the one I was replying to and I don’t need a concept explained to me that I already understand.

Settle down.

bolexforsoup, (edited )

Settle down yourself. Don’t be an asshole.

Mongostein,

Ok there. Have a nice day.

Ookami38,

Toxic masculinity is applying that mentality to something inherent to men. So, man up, sack up, nut up, etc. The implication is that if you are not masculine, you should start being so. You got nuts, use em. Pretty toxic.

How about “grow up” “act an adult” or the like, at least then we’re not tying ability to change and be better with genital status.

PugJesus,

Absolutely. Unfortunately, I think the biggest impact of decent men standing up for fair treatment for women will simply be to make the cretins run back under their rocks - certainly good, but not enough. It’ll take generational change, changing the way boys are raised, the kind that’s been slowly happening with each successive wave of feminism, to truly solve this problem.

I was lucky enough to have a mother who was, despite being otherwise fairly conservative, unyieldingly feminist (in practice and speech, if not in labeling). I was raised with the knowledge that women, fundamentally, are people (gasp), for better and worse, and that society unfairly discriminates against women and harasses them for no other reason than the petty cruelty of a few who benefit and the many who are easily misled or hope to benefit.

spujb, (edited )

EDIT: Post has restored and it turned out to be a misunderstanding! Thank you to the mod team for being really chill about this. :)

You guys have no clue how sad I am that the mods did this. I reached out for an explanation, but nothing so far, and all that positive discussion and holding each other accountable is just wiped out, meanwhile all of the other posts full of straight up misogynistic hate and flaming is still up. Guess this is what I get for trying to be a good actor online.

https://lemmy.cafe/pictrs/image/8e6ff73d-3255-4fbb-89c8-e48e8af694fa.webp

henfredemars,

Take heart. Should the reason be less than stellar, the fediverse protects you by offering numerous venues to share your thoughts.

Fundamentally, you only require an audience who wishes to hear. You were able to come to this place and share anyway. No one can dominate the discussion. It’s a beautiful thing.

spujb, (edited )

Honestly serves me right for trusting any .world community without JonsJava as a mod. 😝 JonsJava and the Blahaj mods are what make this platform bearable.

Edit: The mods reached out and were actually very kind about the misunderstanding. No hard feelings!

match,
@match@pawb.social avatar

I’m not sure youth disenfranchisement is caused by bad rhetoric considering the other causes like wealth inequality and generally poor life fulfillment

NaibofTabr,

No, not caused by, it just feeds the confirmation bias of people who are already on that mental path.

Sop, (edited )

Being kind and understanding to bigoted men has done nothing for feminism. This meme is ignorant of the feminist struggle.

spujb,

I am not calling to be kind and understanding to bigoted men for sure!

I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)

rand_alpha19, (edited )

I would like to respectfully remind you of bell hooks and her work towards bridging the gaps between men and women.

The big one is The Will to Change, an excellent feminist text about being kind and understanding to men who act in bigoted ways; she does acknowledge that there are, of course, many men who are unwilling to listen.

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