George Takei's Based Voting Take [Rule}

Image Transcription:

A tweet from the George Takei Twitter account which states:

“A Democrat was in the White House when my family was sent to the internment camps in 1941. It was an egregious violation of our human and civil rights.

It would have been understandable if people like me said they’d never vote for a Democrat again, given what had been done to us.

But being a liberal, being a progressive, means being able to look past my own grievances and concerns and think of the greater good. It means working from within the Democratic party to make it better, even when it has betrayed its values.

I went on to campaign for Adlai Stevenson when I became an adult. I marched for civil rights and had the honor of meeting Dr. Martin Luther King. I fought for redress for my community and have spent my life ensuring that America understood that we could not betray our Constitution in such a way ever again.

Bill Clinton broke my heart when he signed DOMA into law. It was a slap in the face to the LGBTQ community. And I knew that we still had much work to do. But I voted for him again in 1996 despite my misgivings, because the alternative was far worse. And my obligation as a citizen was to help choose the best leader for it, not to check out by not voting out of anger or protest.

There is no leader who will make the decision you want her or him to make 100 percent of the time. Your vote is a tool of hope for a better world. Use it wisely, for it is precious. Use it for others, for they are in need of your support, too.”

End Transcription.

The last paragraph I find particularly powerful and something more people really should take into account.

JimboDHimbo,

Not based. This is the same sentiment I’ve seen on the politics community here on lemmy, and in snapshots of twitter posts posted to lemmy as well. Same boring rhetoric. “suck it up and vote for the lesser of two evils”

Gormadt,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Unfortunately here in the US with our current voting system, voting for the lesser of 2 evils is the best strategy once it’s election day.

Primaries are for voting with your heart, election day is for strategic voting.

JimboDHimbo, (edited )

Live and served here. I’m aware of the song and dance. Just saying George isn’t providing some sort of revelation. It’s the same bullshit every 4 years

Edit: not sure why my original comment was removed, even after scrolling through this community’s rules. But it’s cool, the other 196 is better anyway.

!deleted125603,

deleted_by_author

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  • the_q,

    And? Do you want people to vote for Trump then?

    Maalus,

    Or maybe, just maybe, there is a third way? When it comes to politics, americans are as defeatist as russians are.

    idunnololz,
    @idunnololz@lemmy.world avatar

    Do you want to run back 2016? Because this is how you run back 2016.

    HobbitFoot,

    What is defeatist about it? It is about constantly participating in the system to make sure your views are still considered.

    It means participating in primaries to make sure some of your candidates get picked even if others are going to lose. For instance, I’m going to vote in the primary because it will have a major impact on choosing a Senator of my state even if Biden is going to be the Presidential nominee.

    It means choosing candidates in the general election that you can at least try to influence with protests and other actions after the election. I’d rather have a percentage of what I want politically done than nothing.

    The alternative seems to be not to participate, which feels more defeatist.

    Maalus,

    Thw alternative is to choose people who would change the status quo of just having to choose between two candidates. Seriously, how is it democracy, if it’s the exact same shit going on year after year after year? One president is a democrat, one is a republican. Average that out, and it flip flops from one to the other. Neither change the status quo at all. So maybe vote in someone who will?

    null,

    Thw alternative is to choose people who would change the status quo of just having to choose between two candidates.

    If only it were that simple.

    thecrotch,

    It literally is, but too many people bought the “throwing your vote away” BS. Including you.

    null,

    It’s really not. How does me, and me alone voting 3rd party help?

    thecrotch,

    How does you voting for anyone help?

    null,

    Me alone? It doesn’t. That’s the point.

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Here’s a great video that explains the issues with our voting system, it even explains why voting third party is throwing your vote away.

    TLDW: It’s because voting for that third party ensures that the candidate that you hate the most has an easier time winning as the candidate that is closer to their opponent (the third party) takes votes away from their opponent.

    Maalus,

    See, defeatism. It is that simple.

    null, (edited )

    It’s really not. How does me, and me alone voting 3rd party help?

    Maalus,

    If nobody votes 3rd party, then they’ll never win, now will they?

    null,

    Of course not – so what you’re effectively saying is that it’s “simple” to get enough people to agree on what the right changes are to the status quo, and collectively back a candidate that promises those changes for them to get enough votes to be able to make those changes.

    Which is of course exactly what 3rd party candidates are attempting to do by campaigning in the first place. I wonder if they know how “simple” it’s supposed to be.

    Maalus,

    Yeah it is simple - when people stop buying the “a vote for third party is lost”. Go out, protest, vote for 3rd parties. But nope, it’s easier to let democracy be eroded further and further.

    null,

    You must have missed this part, let me copy and paste it again for you:

    “get enough people to agree on what the right changes are to the status quo, and collectively back a candidate that promises those changes for them to get enough votes to be able to make those changes.”

    Please explain how that’s simple to make happen.

    Right now, what you’re saying is tantamount to saying that achieving world piece is simple, all people need to do is just be kind to each other. It’s cute, but it’s completely devoid of any critical thought.

    HobbitFoot,

    The President isn’t a dictator; a lot of decisions are made by other politicians as I noted. Hell, we are seeing what happens when you have a divided government versus one led by one party.

    Also, there is voting in primaries. Again, the presidential candidate may be chosen, but there are other candidates as well and some may need your support and align with your interests.

    And I get that you might have an election with a candidate you may not love like Biden or you find out that a candidate is a piece of shit like Simena. However, I’d still rather show up and get a chance to affect the choosing of my leaders rather than not.

    Not voting is defeatism.

    Maalus,

    Which again - go vote and vote for a third party.

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Primaries are for voting with your heart, election day is for voting strategically

    Maalus,

    Yeah I heard that repeated without a reason as to “why”. Ultimately it boils down to “we got conditioned to voting for the status quote”

    null,

    This might help you understand better: www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

    Maalus,

    I know how it works. I’m saying you got convinced that your vote doesn’t matter and to “vote strategically”. Which is entirely defeatist. It’s no wonder you only have a two party system, when it’s so easy to tell people “you don’t have a choice”.

    null,

    What you’re arguing is directly addressed in the video.

    Gormadt, (edited )
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    CGP Grey’s whole voting series is great and more people should watch it

    Edit: Spleling

    null,

    Your silence speaks volumes.

    Glad that video helped you understand and hopefully you’ll spread less bullshit in the future!

    Maalus,

    People have shit to do. Also, I decided to stop arguing with a person who doesn’t even know that they have a choice. I’ll now be ignoring you, since I don’t care about debating a defeatist american and furthermore I don’t care about you.

    null,

    Haha cute. I posted something that completely dismantles what you’re saying so you run away with your tail between your legs.

    Classic.

    darq,
    darq avatar

    The system doesn't actually require any collaboration to eventually become a two-party race. It's pretty much statistically assured if voters behave rationally, but with limited information.

    CoggyMcFee,

    You’re starting out with the wrong assumption in your question. The question should be “why is it that there are only two choices?” And the answer is: because the voting system laid out in the constitution makes it an inevitability.

    It’s not a coincidence that the countries in Europe with many parties have a different type of system. Statistical models demonstrate that their many parties and our two parties are a natural consequence of how our voting system works.

    It’s bad enough being stuck in the situation we are, but wrongly attributing the cause to a vast conspiracy, involving both parties working together, just leads to the wrong conclusions about what to do about it.

    In reality, voting third party instead of the party you most align with just helps the party you least align with. The GOP backs third party candidates that might attract liberal voters for a reason.

    onkyo,

    You could also organize outside the electoral system. In fact it’s the only way to keep politicians accountable

    HandBreadedTools,

    If you got the money for that I’ll be down to be your campaign manager

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Who says you can’t organize if you vote?

    Organize and get people to loudly push for some things you want in our country AND vote

    Doing both is important

    Edit: I accidentally a word

    Kusimulkku,

    “suck it up and vote for the lesser of two evils”

    But that’s the smartest thing to do in a two party system

    CluckN,

    Youngins will complain about old people running the country while also skipping the polls to eat hot chip and lie.

    MindSkipperBro12,

    Women☕️

    Neato,
    Neato avatar

    You're the people he's talking about and you're oblivious.

    JimboDHimbo,

    And you’re blocked.

    Neato,
    Neato avatar

    Lol

    Lemvi,

    Wild how he doesn’t even mention the possibility of voting for a third party. I mean I get that there a reasons one might stick with the “lesser of two evils” approach, but this tweet makes it seem like there just isn’t any other way.

    darq,
    darq avatar

    Wild how he doesn’t even mention the possibility of voting for a third party.

    Why would he? The US voting system makes third party candidates an impossibility. It's not a viable option.

    !deleted125603,

    deleted_by_author

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  • darq,
    darq avatar

    Well, sorta but also not really.

    Neither party seems to have any interest in reforming the voting system to something more representative. So in that way I guess you could say they are colluding, but more reasonably they simply share a common incentive.

    But it really is the system itself that makes third party candidates basically impossible. It incentivises people to vote strategically, not for the party they want but rather against the party they don't want. That system is eventually sure to collapse into a two-party system.

    Lemvi,

    I understand that. What baffles me is how willing he is to accept the FPTP system they have in the US, especially with his history. Given the beginning of his tweet, you’d think he’d conclude with an appeal to reform the system, to make it viable to vote for third parties. Instead, he acts as if the system was a constant of the universe, not a man made one that can quite easily be changed. He lays down the perfect argument for a reform of the system, without actually speaking out in favor of it. Thats whats wild to me.

    HandBreadedTools,

    And who should be the one to actually do the reforming? Everyone always asks for reform in the system but no one actually wants any specific entity to do it.

    Lemvi,

    The people doing the reforming would need to be the people with the power to change the system in those ways. I’m not familiar enough with the system in the US to know whether that is the president, the supreme court, congress, or some other entity, but someone has the power to do that I’m quite certain.

    To get them to do this, the people would need to pressure them into it, be it with their vote, petitions, demonstrations, social media posts or whatnot. There are many ways to achieve change, but it won’t happen as long as people just keep voting for the lesser evil, because “eh, what can you do”

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    To elaborate a little further: Our First Past the Post system makes third party candidates a spoiler candidate for the party they most closely resemble

    Say you’ve got 3 people running for a position. Person A and Person B are fairly similar but differ in some key points, Person C is the exact opposite of Person A.

    The election happens and this is the result: Person A gets 30%, Person B gets 30%, and Person C gets 40%. Person C wins, even though 60% of people didn’t want Person C.

    This is why third party candidates are usually considered “spoiler candidates”

    fathog,

    Where fourth party?

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Down the street, at the house with the big tree. Look for the large number of cars and the thumping music.

    Can’t miss it.

    TheFrogThatFlies,

    I think that logic is employing the “best of two evils” ideology again. People should vote on the person that better represents them and person C is the one that represents most people. Voting against people they dislike is not the basis of democracy!

    BrandoGil,

    No, it’s a well fleshed out theorem and is mathematically correct

    ChairmanMeow,
    @ChairmanMeow@programming.dev avatar

    That’s because FPTP is a terrible voting system. Tactical voting is the only realistic solution a voter has to the FPTP problem.

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Person C had 60% of people vote against them, they didn’t represent most people.

    Unfortunately in our first past the post system it doesn’t matter how many people vote for other candidates, if you get the most you win.

    Here’s a fun little history fact for you: back in 1860 there were 4 parties on the ballot for the presidential election. The winner got 39% of the votes. Link

    !deleted125603,

    deleted_by_author

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  • the_q,

    Reading comprehension isn’t your forte is it?

    !deleted125603,

    deleted_by_author

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  • the_q,

    Go look up at the fucking betterment of the lgbtqia community over the last 20 years and then come back and tell me that voting any other way than for Democrats, even when many of them individually are shitty like Sulu is talking about, isn’t the right thing to do in an imperfect world. Goddamn.

    irmoz,

    Fucking idiot.

    !deleted125603,

    deleted_by_author

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  • irmoz,

    Then who is? George isn’t.

    MindSkipperBro12,

    Go.

    Away.

    the_q,

    A vote for a third party candidate is a vote for Trump.

    thecrotch,

    I live in a state that has reliably , by a wide margin, given all of its electoral votes to the same party for over 40 years. Voting third party and helping them get 20% of the popular vote so they have a spot in the debates next election is literally the only way for my vote to matter.

    the_q,

    This is 150% never going to happen so Trump thanks you for your vote.

    thecrotch,

    I live in Connecticut you idiot, all of our electoral votes are going to the democrat even if I voted for trump directly. It’s amazing that you people have such strong opinions on the electoral system yet know next to nothing about it.

    the_q,

    How was I supposed to know you lived in Connecticut? Vote for Trump if you want to, bud.

    thecrotch,

    I don’t expect you to know where I live. I do expect you to know that this ‘every vote matters, a vote for anyone but Biden is automatically a vote for Trump’ rhetoric really only applies to like 6 or 7 swing states.

    the_q,

    Ok, bud.

    thecrotch,

    I don’t really care how much rnc/dnc Kool aid you guzzle but don’t try to pour it down my throat

    the_q,

    Lol ok.

    the_artic_one,

    There aren’t any third party Presidential candidates in America who deserve 20% of the popular vote. None of them put any effort into winning congressional seats or pushing alternative voting to make themselves viable. They’re just a bunch of grifters and fools who only show up every four years to beg for donations instead of doing anything useful to fix our political system.

    thecrotch,

    Do you believe there are any major party presidential candidates who deserve my vote?

    EndlessApollo,

    If you’re not with us you’re with the terrorists.

    amio,

    That's because unless they get rid of the first-past-the-post system, it's 100% wasted.

    Unfortunately, FPTP also keeps the existing dominant parties complacent in only having one enemy, so they don't actually have to try very hard. So changing it is unlikely to gather a lot of steam, either. "Lesser evil" sucks, but is ironically a lesser evil than just throwing away the vote entirely.

    Sprucie,

    I disagree with this mindset.

    In a purely hypothetical scenario say 10% of people vote for the third party candidate, and this candidate has policies which neither of the two main parties have, say more green policies. When the results come in and one of the main parties lose by 5%, they’re going to start thinking about adopting a few more green policies to capture some of that third party vote for the next election.

    Voting third party can absolutely change the policies of the main parties, it happened in the UK with UKIP - a party which had less than 10% of the vote and no chance of a majority, but it spooked the big parties enough that they promised a referendum on EU membership.

    KoboldOfArtifice,

    Sadly this doesn’t work if one of the parties is threatening to do all they can to break down the democracy before you get your chance to see the results at the next vote.

    amio,

    Disagree as much as you want, that certainly still seems to be how shit works. If I'm wrong - awesome! Show me how.

    buddhabound,

    Bernie Sanders was the best-positioned potential third party candidate in probably the last 50-100 years. Why, then, didn’t Bernie run as a third party candidate? Because it’s not a viable strategy in the FPTP way we run elections here. He knew that it would be the worst option.

    There isn’t a viable “other way”.

    !deleted125603,

    deleted_by_author

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  • HandBreadedTools,

    To make it true? That would be the federalists and the democratic republicans. To keep it true? Well that would be the winner-takes-all system the US has. Blaming a single entity for systematic issues will never work the way you want it to.

    If the democratic party died tomorrow, a new party would take its place and it would be just as terrible as you believe the DNC is now.

    Neato,
    Neato avatar

    He does. A "protest vote" is the same thing as throwing away your vote for a third party in the general election for president.

    Lemvi,

    He doesn’t mention protest votes though, only not voting out of protest, which is something entirely different imo. Not voting can be interpreted as satisfaction with the status quo, while a protest vote is the opposite, a clear statement of rejection of all available choices. Not voting is quiet approval, a protest vote an active display of discontent.

    Also, I disagree that a vote for a third party is a protest vote. I usually vote for a fringe party, but I’m not doing so to protest the system or ruling parties, but simply because I think they are the best candidates.

    Finally I don’t agree with the idea that I am throwing away my vote by voting for an unpopular candidate. If anything, I am doing the opposite, I am making my will known. The people who decide that this vote has no worth are the ones throwing away my vote and they are the ones undermining democracy.

    nebula42,
    oldbaldgrumpy,

    Voting out of anger or protest is what got Obama elected twice, Trump and Biden once…so far.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Saying democrats or voting got black people rights is a slap in the face of those who literally fought for them.

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I’m sure black people would have gotten better rights if no one voted for the lesser of 2 evils.

    People fought for the rights, and politicians who supported those rights won elections because people voted for them.

    TheSaneWriter,
    @TheSaneWriter@lemmy.thesanewriter.com avatar

    It played a role. Because the Democrats and President Johnson were in charge during the Civil Rights movement, we got the Civil Rights Act. Because the Republicans and President Trump were in charge during the BLM movement, we got jackshit (on a federal level). This stuff matters.

    banneryear1868,

    The parties didn’t have unanimous ideological consensus within them back then, that’s really only been a thing during the last 30 years.

    Great illustration of this from Biden during a campaign event in 2019:

    At a New York City fundraiser Tuesday night, Biden told donors he has reached across the aisle throughout his career. “I was in a caucus with James O. Eastland,” Biden said, according to a pool report. "He never called me ‘boy’; he always called me ‘son.’ "

    “Well, guess what? At least there was some civility,” … “We got things done. We didn’t agree on much of anything. We got things done. We got it finished. But today, you look at the other side and you’re the enemy. Not the opposition, the enemy. We don’t talk to each other anymore.”

    Those “across the aisle” politicians he pointed to there were James O. Eastland and Georgia Sen. Herman Talmadge, both racist segregationist Democrats.

    TheSaneWriter,
    @TheSaneWriter@lemmy.thesanewriter.com avatar

    I fully agree that politics have changed, I’m just arguing that having a sympathetic President and Congress in office makes it significantly easier to get legislation passed by protest.

    banneryear1868,

    Generally I agree with the idea that “great people don’t make history, but sometimes history produces a great person.” There’s a few points in US history where individual people’s decisions did impact a lot though, thinking of Andrew Johnson during reconstruction. The economic system now and what America is to the world isn’t really up for debate anymore, some have referred to this as the post-political era where more and more issues are culturally focused since both parties are consented on the economic system where meaningful change actually happens. Obama really embodied this because he was so powerful a figure yet change didn’t really happen, he’s like the best case scenario in this current arrangement, and look what happened after him… all of this is part of the slide to the right because it’s via the economic arrangement consented to by both parties that this happens.

    With Civil Rights era I think the battle was really won in the courts and through labor organizing. Economic pressure was put on the system in this way and the system had to deal with it. Then you had those individual moments of bravery, like after segregation laws were struck down, “Freedom Riders” tested the laws by riding desegregated busses to the south, getting mobbed and jailed but unable to be formally charged.

    Raddnaar,

    It’s a shame liberals/progressives cannot practise the tolerance they preach.

    I expect this to be a wildly unpopular post. Bring the hate - it serves only to illustrate the truth of my first line!

    beckerist,

    deleted_by_author

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  • Raddnaar,

    Not trying to incite anything. And yes, they are actively practicing ant-tolerance. And you are acutely aware of that.

    There is no more tolerance on the left than there is on the right. That about sums up the problem doesn’t it.

    qarbone,

    “Not trying to incite anything.”

    says only incorrect, inflammatory things

    profit??? (from being a paid actor to incite discord, because I don’t want to believe an unpaid idiot is posting such horrendously idiotic takes unprompted)

    Raddnaar,

    Lol. You mean like your incorrect, inflammatory post here? This idiotic one you didn’t get paid for? Haha.

    I can’t have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent!

    Zess,

    There is no more tolerance on the left than there is on the right.

    Hahahaha you centrists are so fucking stupid

    Raddnaar,

    And there’s your tolerance. Thanks Sparky. Lol

    Basil,
    neurogenesis,

    This image shows a comic book scene depicting Captain America punching a red masked super-villian with a large swastika on his chest. A balloon of text above the villains head reads “SO MUCH FOR THE TOLERANT LEFT”.

    Holyginz,

    Oh if we are just going to pull things out of our ass in the hopes it makes things true I’m a multimillionaire and my wife and I are set for life! See, my statement has just as much truth as your little made up victim complex statement.

    Raddnaar,

    You are all so predictable. Pwnd. Lol

    papertowels,

    Bring the hate - it serves only to illustrate the truth of my first line!

    Do you… Think you’re some sacrificial martyr or something for conservatives?

    Most people don’t care about someone blatantly trying to inflame others. You’ll get a few that will bite but by far most people will look at this with more pity and apathy than anger.

    Raddnaar,

    Lol. Like you just did. You’re just a sanctimonious self-righteous liberal

    Like all the rest. Everyone of you entirely missed the point!

    papertowels,

    Aaah, this is satire for folks who base their personality and all interactions around politics, gotcha.

    Sorry, tone and nuance doesn’t carry well over the internet.

    Raddnaar,

    Nice comeback. A lame c+ at best

    papertowels,

    Sure I’ll take it.

    Have a great day!

    Raddnaar,

    Now that was good. Thanks for the conversation. You enjoy your day too.

    mydude,

    My father beat me when I was a kid, he ran for child services president and I voted for him. I heard that the other guy beat his kids more, so I really had a moral duty to vote for my dad. You guys, it’s really important to vote for the guy who beats his kids less.

    Soulg,

    Idiotic take

    Faresh, (edited )

    How? It is exactly what it sounds like when people say to vote for the “lesser evil”, especially in this post.

    CheeseNoodle,

    But that IS still better than voting for the greater evil.

    nul9o9,

    If there was absolutely no chance for some one other than the two child beaters getting elected, then it would make sense. But that’s not the case for the US presidency.

    hydrospanner,

    Really?

    SasquatchBanana,

    Alright. Here’s the scenario.

    You’re at the ballot box. It is between Biden and Trump. In this hypothetical it is so far a tie. They are neck to neck. Let’s say it is 5 mil votes to 5 mil. Either needs one more vote to win. Your vote is the deciding one to be president.

    What do you do?

    knightly, (edited )
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Refuse to vote because the right-wing bias of the electoral college would give that hypothetical election to Trump either way, just like it did in 2016.

    For the sake of argument let us ignore the electoral college, in which case I would still refuse to vote since a tie must be broken by Congress in an undemocratic process that harms the government’s claim to legitimacy just like when the supreme court gave the 2000 election to Bush.

    SasquatchBanana,

    So you relinquish responsibility and defer it to another entity? One that is currently corrupt and broke, paralleling your issue with the executive office and election process.

    So you’d put it up to some nebulous future decision, by another entity, with who’d be president? If Trump is elected he isn’t leaving office. We are going full fash, and people of color and queer folk will be going first. Trans people will most likely first.

    If Biden wins, for the most part the status quo stays the same but we get a chance to democratically make life better. Trans people are much safer in this path, same with other marginalized folk.

    With this information, would you reconsider your answer?

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    As a trans person myself, I dont want to be a martyr but I cannot abide by a false choice between bad and worse. That isn’t Democracy, it’s a Faustian Bargain that can only temporarily delay the inevitable crisis of legitimacy that marks the end of the American Empire.

    Justice delayed is justice denied, and waiting for a more convenient hour will only preserve a status quo where people like me are frequently murdered without consequence.

    In full consideration of the risk, I must continue to insist that Democrats aren’t worthy of my time and energy. Instead, I focus on building robust networks of mutual aid and community support that we might minimize loss of life during the transition to a new form of government.

    SasquatchBanana,

    Why can’t you do that while being under a democratic presidency? Why not vote for Biden, prevent deaths and pain and human suffering, but also work towards that goal?

    Under fascism, good luck doing that. It’s going to be impossible to build robust networks of mutual aid. You are going to be in a concentration camp next to me, waiting in line to be gased or cooked.

    And who needs to give Dems time or energy? Fuck them. I barely think about them. I vote blue, and while I do l, I work with my community to make it better. I help support progressive candidates and policies, unions, and so much more. All this only possible under a non-fascistic regime.

    To me, it sounds like you’re waiting for that convenient hour. That right candidate. I rather do that while alive and have my freedoms.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Why can’t you do that while being under a democratic presidency?

    There’s a Democrat in office now.

    Why not vote for Biden, prevent deaths and pain and human suffering, but also work towards that goal?

    Whether or not I actually vote is nobody’s business but my own. My public threats to withhold my vote are a sentiment manipulation strategy for pushing the party to suck less.

    Under fascism, good luck doing that. It’s going to be impossible to build robust networks of mutual aid.

    They managed to do it in Chile while Republicans and Democrats were sponsoring the Pinochet regime. We’ll do it too, because we’ll have to.

    And who needs to give Dems time or energy? Fuck them. I barely think about them. I vote blue

    And by admitting it, you reveal yourself as a “safe” voter whom the party can ignore rather than a potentially reachable voter that the party must actively pander to.

    To me, it sounds like you’re waiting for that convenient hour. That right candidate. I rather do that while alive and have my freedoms.

    I don’t discuss the details of my political activities in public, but you can trust that I’m not waiting around for some hero to swoop in and save the day. I’ve been disappointed too many times before.

    SasquatchBanana,

    I believe we should reduce harm. We shouldn’t cause more pain and suffering. Not voting for Biden does this. This accelerationism is a gigantic gamble, and no matter what it will just increase pain. If Trump becomes presidency, it won’t just be another Republican. It will be another Hitler. You are trans right? You are at the front of the chopping block. You aren’t getting any of your goals done.

    I am ultimately not telling you what to vote for. I want to explore what makes an individual think why they shouldn’t vote this upcoming election. This hypothetical leads to genocide. It’s unfortunate many people think this way. I don’t want my partner and loved ones come to harm. We don’t have that privilege to not vote.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    I agree, we should reduce harm.

    That’s why I’m doing everything I can to push the Democrats to reform now, rather than promising to “vote blue no matter who” and sitting on my ass 'til voting day.

    Its astounding to me that so many folks in these comments have such little faith in the party that they skip straight to the assumption that I won’t be voting and waste time trying to change my mind rather than calling their representatives and demanding they shape up.

    SasquatchBanana,

    It’s because you said you wouldn’t vote for Biden. It’s because of the accelerationist perspective which will kill minorities.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Then maybe they should call up the Democrats and tell them to run somebody who isn’t a war criminal.

    SasquatchBanana,

    That’s not going to change the fact of the next election candidates. We need to work with the system. We need to mobilize grassroot movements and affect local politics. Look at the wins in Michigan or Minnesota (forgot which) that had a full Democratic government. We got so much ground there. We gain a lot more when we have Dems instead of Repubs at the head of power.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    That’s not going to change the fact of the next election candidates.

    It’s a shame, but it’s not changing my message. The party needs to shape up and start sending war criminals to the Hague instead of the White House.

    We need to work with the system.

    The system is designed to disenfranchise us, especially if we work with it. I’m glad to leave room for a plurality of tactics, though. You go ahead and push the envelope from the inside and I’ll pull from out here.

    We need to mobilize grassroot movements and affect local politics.

    Yup, strikes need organization too. Especially when the bargaining unit consists of about 165 million democrats and nonvoters. If you run into anybody else that wants the party to reform and is willing to not-vote about it, send them my way.

    We gain a lot more when we have Dems instead of Repubs at the head of power.

    But we could be getting a lot more, especially if the Democrats started doing wildly popular things like forgiving student debt, blocking arms deals to war zones, and putting republicans on record voting against bills for postal banking, a public healthcare option, municipal broadband, etc.

    SasquatchBanana,

    Perfection is the enemy of progress.

    Yes, we need better candidates. Yes, we need these policies passed to change the material conditions of American. But the Dems will NEVER be perfect. Progressive will NEVER be perfect. Socialists, communist party, etc. will NEVER be perfect. We need to work with what we have.

    Right now we are faced with the decision of the country becoming fascist, making our goals unattainable, or working with a democratic system and doing our best moving socialist ideals. I rather do the work in that environment than seeing my partner and loved ones die because they are trans. I rather not be put in a concentration camp.

    Nothing will happen if America becomes fascist. We are done. Our movement will be quelled. Mass death. This isn’t an exaggeration. Look at Project 2025 and you can extrapolate from there.

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    Because it’s a stupid fucking reason not to vote and it’s a misrepresentation of the post itself. You can’t get much more idiotic than that.

    kool_newt, (edited )

    It is exactly what it sounds like when people say to vote for the “lesser evil”

    You do realize that if you don’t get the"lesser evil" what you get in fact is “more evil” right? We don’t default to “not evil” by not choosing.

    (edit) People that say this often seem to think the choice is between (A) Choosing one of the evils (B) Revolution that ends capitalism and sets up communism.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Voting for the lesser evil is still voting for evil. Those who find it morally acceptable to legitimize evil out of fear are called “cowards”.

    kool_newt,

    Ok then, thanks for supporting Trump I guess.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Lol, thanks for continuing to legitimize the Empire I guess. You’re really sticking it to those fascists by adding your voice to the implied consent of the governed. 🙄

    kool_newt,

    You’re really sticking it to those fascists

    This reasoning is part of your mistake about me (and many others I presume). I don’t vote for Democrats to stick it to fascists. I don’t vote thinking that voting is the solution to the society’s fundamental problems. I vote because my other, non-electoral efforts to make the world a better place are significantly more difficult and dangerous with far right wing leaders vs right-ish leaders like Democrats.

    Not voting because voting can’t solve the world’s problems immediately the way you want seems like you’re letting perfect be the enemy of progress.

    You see the right wingers banning books, closing libraries, trying to take basic rights from minorities, those things make it harder for people in those groups to make real progress outside of the electoral system.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    The sooner we can begin the transition away from Empire and towards a more equitable form of government, the more lives can be preserved.

    Electoralism can only delay the inevitable, and that time and energy is better spent on building networks of mutual aid so we can support each other and minimize loss of life during the Second American Revolution.

    kool_newt,

    Ah, an accelerationist I see. For me, I don’t think it’s my place to choose to sacrifice other’s lives to achieve my political goals with expediency.

    WldFyre,

    I’m sure the furries will be fine in the event of a revolution!

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Call it what you will, the people dying in Gaza right now don’t have the luxury of waiting 'til after the next election.

    I don’t think its your place to choose to sacrifice other people’s lives to accomplish your political goals at a more leisurely pace either.

    kool_newt,

    And how exactly is forfeiting your vote helping the people in Gaza?

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    It gives the Democrats one vote’s worth of incentive to stop the war machine right now, as opposed to waiting a year and hoping there will be a candidate on my ballot more beholden to BDS than AIPAC.

    yetAnotherUser,

    Not voting for the lesser evil is very much akin to supporting the greater evil because the greater evil is receiving a larger share of votes.

    Who would you vote for: Adolf Hitler or some person who stole a child’s lollypop once, who seeks to improve everyone’s lifes? According to you, voting for neither would be the best since you’d be legitimizing evil eithet way.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Do the Democrats have a candidate whose worst feature is a single incidence of baby-robbing, or are they just going to run war criminals for office again?

    The Democrats have a year to sort themselves out, but so many people in these comments seem to assume that they won’t even try. Its weird that all these supposed Democrat voters have such little faith in the party that they’d rather try and persuade me to vote blue no matter who than call their reps and demand they do better.

    yetAnotherUser,

    Considering Republicans don’t have literally Hitler as the candidate (just Hitler lite™), my comment was meant to be hyperbolic.

    And honestly, does anyone think there’ll be any meaningful change? Are you optimistic they’ll change?

    Besides, I’m not even American, I couldn’t possibly vote Democrat. Though I could vote Republican funnily enough.

    As Americans, due to the influence of your country you have more responsibility than many other people on this planet.

    The climate will not survive another four years of Trump.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    I’m not optimistic, and haven’t been since before I saw the American public buy “they hate us for our freedom”.

    Pluckerpluck,

    I guess it’s fine to be responsible for letting the greater evil into power as long as you can tell yourself that you were morally correct at the end of the day. Because that’s what you’re doing. You’re making a selfish moral point, and in turn actively increase the odds of a worse outcome. You feel better about yourself at the expense of everyone (including yourself).

    Because what do you even gain by not voting here? The moral high ground? You just make it look like the greater evil is more desirable. At least spoil your ballot, so that it counts in the percentages…

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    “Letting” the greater evil take power is what happens when you choose to acquiesce to the carrot and stick. Regardless of the outcome, your participation legitimizes the false choice, gives the the lesser evil no incentive to reform, and the greater evil all incentive to push further in the future. No matter who wins, “Worse outcomes” are inevitable.

    The one making a “selfish moral point” is you, who argues in defense of evil because you fear the consequences of even the mildest rebellion against the Empire more than the cost of living under it.

    If you want me to vote for Democrats, then you’re talking to the wrong person. Call your reps amd convince them to form a Truth and Reconciliation Commission as a bare-minimum first step towards reform and they’ll have my support.

    Pluckerpluck,

    I’m fine with people who don’t care about politics. I think they’re missing out on having their say, but I get it. However I will never understand your mindset.

    You claim that participation legitimized the false choice, giving the lesser evil no incentive to reform, yet this is just wrong!

    Voting for nobody means the status quo sticks. Voter participation can drop insanely low, and still nothing will happen. You’re just giving more power to those who do vote. The lesser evil has no need to change their ways, because you are irrelevant to them. You are not part of the equation for them. You are, quite simply, nothing. You may as well not exist. Your voice isn’t being heard, because the only time your voice matters in the US is when you vote. If you don’t vote, you have no voice.

    But if you vote for the lesser evil, you are now a threat to the greater evil. The greater evil must now start leaning towards policies held by the lesser evil party in an attempt to take votes from the lesser evil party. By doing this, the lesser evil party once more must distinguish themselves, and thus they will move further away from evil in an attempt to keep your vote.

    Voting for the lesser evil has a chance of improving the country. Not participating guarantees the opposite.


    And all of this is ignoring the short term effects of how one party is definitely more evil than the other. One of them is actively trying to make the system worse, and less democratic. Ignoring that fact is so strange.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    You claim that participation legitimized the false choice, giving the lesser evil no incentive to reform, yet this is just wrong!

    Please explain.

    Voting for nobody means the status quo sticks. Voter participation can drop insanely low, and still nothing will happen. You’re just giving more power to those who do vote. The lesser evil has no need to change their ways, because you are irrelevant to them.

    Lower voter participation is a threat to “moderate” parties, forcing them to appeal to radicals they’d previously written off as irrelevant if they wish to remain relevant themselves. Rather than preserving it, this disrupts the status quo.

    You are not part of the equation for them. You are, quite simply, nothing. You may as well not exist. Your voice isn’t being heard, because the only time your voice matters in the US is when you vote. If you don’t vote you have no voice.

    This is a wonderful condemnation of our electoral process, detailing exactly why I’m being so openly performative with my refusal to vote for Democrats. A political party that is neither beholden to their constituency nor interested in appealing outside of it is not a viable party and must change to avoid a spiral into obscurity.

    But if you vote for the lesser evil, you are now a threat to the greater evil.

    If only it were that simple. In truth, the existence of opposition emboldens reactionary parties who rely on actual or perceived external threats to supress internal conflict. Dem victories drive Republican voters and vice versa. If the Republicans vanished overnight, factions within the Dems would split tomorrow. The structure of our first-past-the-post electoral system guarantees it mathematically and allows them to be manipulated by Capitalists playing both sides.

    The greater evil must now start leaning towards policies held by the lesser evil party in an attempt to take votes from the lesser evil party.

    This is the opposite of what we see in reality. Spite and fear drives the Republicans to further extremes to appeal to the most vocal and dedicated members of their base, and Democrats follow the Overton Window to the right in search of the new middle. This is called the “Political Ratchet Effect”.

    Voting for the lesser evil has a chance of improving the country. Not participating guarantees the opposite.

    I wish I could have such hope in the power of a single vote, but for that to actually be the case, we would need a Democrat party that’s willing to throw off it’s financiers and lobbyists to work for us instead. Until then, we’ll get (less) bread, (more) circuses, and maybe the occasional token gesture to rile up Reps and demotivate Dems to maintain the appearance of competition between them.

    Pluckerpluck,

    Just for clarity, I’m actually from the UK, but we also have FPTP voting and a number of similar issues. The Democrats would (for many issues) be considered right wing in the UK though… The really difference though is we actually have minor parties that can leech power from the big parties (see Brexit for a side effect of that).

    This is a wonderful condemnation of our electoral process…

    I agree with this actually. The electoral process is horrible and needs reform. We just disagree on how to hopefully eventually achieve said reform

    Lower voter participation is a threat to “moderate” parties, forcing them to appeal to radicals they’d previously written off as irrelevant if they wish to remain relevant themselves.

    and Democrats follow the Overton Window to the right in search of the new middle.

    Gonna combine the rest here, because I think the crux of the issue is this. I believe that not voting leads to the Democrats shifting right, feeling no need to chase the “lost votes” that are too “radical” to ever convince. They’re too focused at trying to take votes from the Republicans to care about those further left.

    Your (simplified) argument, if I’m correct, is that by not voting you present a base of people that are currently untapped, and hope to encourage the democrats to move towards you in order to convince you to vote for them again.

    It’s effectively the same argument I used to claim that voting for the dems would encourage the republicans to shift left, but you’re trying to shift the dems further left instead.

    My concern is I think I agree with you regarding how the dems are chasing the republicans to the right, but trying to think about this now (after a few drinks) I still think not voting is worse than voting. The not voting method seems to rely on things getting worse before they get better. i.e. you shift far enough right that there’s a big chunk of people not voting on the left that you can grab up in one fell swoop with a big policy change

    Hmmm… I’ll have to think on this further, because you do raise interesting points to consider. So for now instead I would like to say thanks for replying in full and in detail. It’s rare to see people engage this way.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    That’s the thing, I love arguing politics. It just gets frustrating when people come into it in bad faith rather than openly considering new perspectives and talking through the logic.

    And anyway, I’m only threatening not to vote. Whether or not I actually do is separate from the effect of my ultimatum to the party.

    If the Democrats believe that they need to shape up to earn the votes of people like me, then in a year’s time we might be lucky enough to have Democrats worth voting for on the ballot.

    It’s pretty much the best move I could come up with given that I’m not rich enough to buy influence.

    kool_newt,

    your participation legitimizes the false choice

    No, it doesn’t, this is a silly nonsensical argument. We are forced into this system and a voter can neither legitimize nor de-legitimize it to anyone except themselves or maybe their simps. Regardless of whether you participate in the voting, your going to get the consequences. A prisoner isn’t effectively fighting the system by refusing to choose their dinner option and ending up with kitchen floor slop.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Likening the American election system to a prisoner’s choice of dinner is probably a lot more apt than you intended.

    But to follow along with your metaphor, a prisoner does effectively fight the system by refusing to submit to prison slavery. Instead of providing extremely cheap labor and driving down non-slave wages, they become a drain on the finances of the prison system that is still obligated to provide them with kitchen floor slop.

    Participation in prison slavery, on the other hand, renders them complicit in their own imprisonment. Sure, they might be paid pennies on the dollar for their labor, but the vast majority of the value they create goes to offsetting the cost of keeping them locked up and fattening the profit margins of companies that rent convicts, providing financial incentives to further perpetuate the prison slavery system.

    kool_newt,

    a prisoner does effectively fight the system by refusing to submit to prison slavery

    I said nothing of prison labor, that is not the same thing. I agree with you that refusing to submit to prison slavery could effectively fight the system.

    Dagwood222,

    Frederick Douglas was legally barred from voting. He still worked for politicians who wouldn’t promise to end slavery. Was he a dupe? Are you more moral than he was?

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    When criticized on that point by abolitionists, Frederick Douglass is quoted, “I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong.”

    I think that rather succinctly describes my criteria for judging the candidates next year.

    Kethal,

    He was saying he would unite with someone evil if he could accomplish good, and he would not unite with someone good to accomplish evil. That’s exactly the thing everyone else is saying. You have found a quote that perfectly contradicts your argument and supports everyone else, and you don’t even realize it.

    Dagwood222,

    Thanks for replying for me. I’m sure they know it; they’re just the kind of troll who wants to wrap themselves in a cloak of piety.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    You’ve clearly misunderstood me…

    Dagwood222,

    So, you’re going to unite with Trump. Kissinger always explained that he’d had to kill all those Asians in order to prevent WW3. Henry would be proud of your logic, Frederick not so much.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    You’ve clearly misunderstood me, lol.

    HerbalGamer,
    @HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

    I assume you see a magical third option somewhere?

    kool_newt,

    Option C – Hold your nose and vote for the least right wing choices available and work your ass off to build community and independence from capitalist systems.

    We should probably join with the UAW and their plans for a general strike in 2028. Prepare to survive without grocery stores or a job for 1 year by working with neighbors. Anyone talking about any sort of revolution without thinking about how 350 million people that are currently 100% dependent on capitalist systems people are going to eat when the supply chains break and stores shutter is being childish.

    Plibbert,

    Look up logical fallacies. Specifically straw man, slippery slope, and black and white. The guys isn’t even making an argument, he’s pointing out an outlandish example that wouldn’t realistically exist in the given context to elicit an emotional response.

    mydude,

    If the politicians can’t give people something to vote FOR, then they don’t deserve our vote. Come get my vote, thats how politics work.

    spookedbyroaches,

    My local mayor wants to increase funding for the public transit, but he didn’t say ACAB, so I’m not gonna vote for him even if the other other guy is gonna slash the public transit funding by half 😤😤

    hydrospanner,

    You make a good point.

    The person you responded to also makes a good point.

    There’s no one-size-fits-all (all voters or all elections) solution on this one.

    All we can ultimately do is encourage our fellow voters to open their minds, learn all they can about the issues and candidates, and make the best use they feel they can with their right to vote.

    Shaming someone for not voting for your candidate is a great way to repel them from your camp long term. Respecting their decision, even if you disagree with it, sets a much better example of the sort of level-headedness you’d likely want people to associate with your causes.

    petrol_sniff_king,

    Does shaming people for saying slurs repel them from your camp long term?

    Is it acceptable to respect someone’s decision to say r*ard because it sets a better example of the kind of level-headedness the anti-slurs camp wants people to associate them with?

    Like it or not, shame, not fitting in with the group, is a motivating force.

    Daft_ish,

    Actually it doesn’t matter how much he beat you when the other guy molested and raped woman.

    HerbalGamer,
    @HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

    See, his not that bad really…

    Daft_ish,

    Maybe he was right to beat you. I know I wouldn’t hold back against a nazi.

    Thief_of_Crows,

    Yeah but thos guys dad also molested and raped women.

    Daft_ish,

    Sorry, I’m only aware of one presidential candidate who has admitted to molesting woman on tape and has credible accusations of rape against him as determined by a court of law.

    ShortFuse,

    Complain today about fewer options.

    Complain tomorrow about Führer options.

    deaf_fish,

    It’s ok to complain. The complaints are valid. Still vote and encourage others to vote.

    If your two choices are between a 99% fascist and a 98% fascist. Vote for the 98% fascist.

    spookedbyroaches,

    Problem is that people actually think that it’s 99% vs 98% (not saying you think that) when that’s not the case. You have a guy that incited a riot against our democratic process and a guy that kept encouraging unity and actually helped fund infrastructure, local chip manufacturing, renewable funding, etc.

    PhlubbaDubba,

    Not to mention who’s been negotiating the release of Palestinians being held hostage by Israel since long before the 7th, and who’s won concessions from Israel to let Gaza access their offshore natural gas deposits and begin selling for revenue to develop themselves.

    Biden’s done more for Palestinians in a month than these so called allies have done in their lives

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    Remember when the Democrats voted with Republicans to censure the only Palestinian-American in Congress for objecting to the arms deals that are currently enabling one of our proxy states to perpetuate a genocide against her ethnic group?

    Voting for the “lesser evil” is still voting for evil. Worse, it provides the lesser evil with no incentive to seek redemption, since they know you’ll vote for them anyway out of fear.

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    That’s why participating in primaries is so important, the primaries are where the candidates are chosen for the parties. So pushing for more progressive people in the primaries helps prevent such out comes.

    That vote was 234-188 it wasn’t a unanimous thing.

    Edit: the way people have been screaming about it makes it sound like all the Dems voted for that out come when they didn’t.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    “Pushing for more progressive people in the primaries” is what I’ve been begging people to do instead of wasting time trying to persuade me to hold my nose and vote blue no matter who, lol.

    Seasm0ke,

    Exactly. I registered D to vote for someone halfway decent in primaries, not to shill for whatever donkey the DNC force feeds us.

    PhlubbaDubba,

    Maybe if assholes like you didn’t have to be persuaded she wouldn’t be the only fucking Palestinian in Congress and wouldn’t have been ganged up on!

    Also, the is doing a shitton of work in that sentence when 188 Democrats out of the 200 didn’t do that but ok Priv tell me, the Palestinian here, why you get to hand me to the fascists because of what they, the fascists, did to one of my kin.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    I’m not asking to be persuaded, folks are just mad that I refuse to commit to “vote blue no matter who”. The people who need persuading are those 188 who aren’t demanding resignations from the other 12.

    I’m not going to give up the only leverage I have on the party by promising it my vote a year in advance. If you want to describe that as “handing you to the fascists”, then you’ve clearly misunderstood me.

    PhlubbaDubba,

    No, I understand you just fine, your a priv who knows you’ll be fine either way, so you leverage that to attempt extracting concessions from Women, PoC, and Queer folks while waxing ethical about teaching the establishment a lesson by treating them to our deaths if they don’t comply with you as if they’re an autocratic monolith who can just cave and give you what you want without any process or persuasion.

    You’re a vote karen, you’re demanding to see the party’s manager and until us lowlies customer service face it up for you and bring them to you you’ll see fit to torment us with the specter of you letting the fascists into power to have at us.

    If you’re someone who feels confident negotiating, you’re the exact fucking last person who should be right now, because you’ll inherently be talking over the people in greatest need right now.

    You prefer us as martyrs for your cause to us being agents for our own.

    knightly,
    @knightly@pawb.social avatar

    No, you’ve clearly misunderstood me.

    I’m a left-wing trans furry, why would I think I’d be “just fine” under the Trump dictatorship?

    Don’t you want “vote Karens” bugging the Democrat party managers to stop financing Genocide?

    Thief_of_Crows,

    Yeah, only one of the candidates aided in a genocide. Voting for that guy is literally voting for fascism. Biden, to be clear.

    RenownedBalloonThief,

    I’m actually going to vote for the 0% fascist instead.

    votesocialist2024.com/

    deaf_fish,

    I’m sorry to say that this will probably not be a choice.

    3rd parties are great and all, but the most likely outcome is that a vote for them will remove a vote for a more realistic candidate.

    I hate this, but it is the reality of the situation.

    Custoslibera,

    This would all be resolved if America just changed first past the post voting.

    SolarMech,

    Or if the debates weren’t managed by a private entity owned by the other two parties.

    Canada has first past the post voting, and 3 active parties. My province has first pas the post and has 4 major parties (with a 5th one that is close but can’t get a representative in). I’ll agree that ranked voting at least would be a lot better.

    Moneo,

    Dude using Canada’s FPTP system as a positive example is ridiculous, it’s barely functioning.

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Don’t worry, with enough time it will be as dysfunctional as the US’s FPTP system

    Cries in American

    psychothumbs,

    And it’s a disaster in Canada. The only reason the Conservatives ever take power up there is because of the giant vote split between NDP and the Liberals. Look how the conservatives are heavy favorites to win their next election despite every poll showing them with less than the combined votes of the Liberals and NDP: en.wikipedia.org/…/Opinion_polling_for_the_45th_C…

    SolarMech,

    I mean you assume that a significant number of NDP voters would vote for the libs if they weren’t there (or maybe vice-versa). I’m really not sure of that.

    psychothumbs,

    Yes I definitely assume that. Maybe not every single person since who knows what goes on in people’s heads, but generally we should expect the voters for the two left of center parties to prefer the other left of center one to the right wing one. Particularly since presumably if there was a single party representing those voters it would probably be somewhere in between them ideology-wise.

    SolarMech,

    Sorry for the late reply, the lack of a red envelope makes me not notice replies.

    People on election day have to decide if they go voting at all. This is a big deal, it’s what most of the campaign in the ridding is focusing on changing (you want to make sure all of your voters go vote, that is top priority in an election).

    Having a party that is a bad fit for you is demotivating and likely­ to reduce turnout. That is what I mean by “likely to vote”. It’s not the right wing option that people will go for. It’s the comfort of staying home and not bothering to vote for a “lib” if you’re a progressive, or for a “commie” if you’re a lib. For some people, the NDP is already too far right…

    So yeah, some of the support of the NDP would transfer over to the liberal party, but definitely not all. And that’s not to mention all of the crazy people who can go from NDP to tories at the drop of a hat (voters have shallower roots than the base, or have irrational hatred of specific politicians or parties) or who would just vote Bloq Québécois or something else.

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    We’ll only change it with enough push from citizens

    Push for a new system (like ranked choice or STAR) in your state for state elections and we can likely make it popular enough to get it to the national stage

    smooth_jazz_warlady,

    Speaking as an Australian:

    I also feel like you need mandatory voting (with enforcement), like what we have. That reframes elections from “riling up your power base so they go out and vote” to “hey average voter, here’s why you should vote for me and how things will improve if you do so”.

    PersnickityPenguin,

    Americans don’t even get the day off to vote, and they have to stand in line for 12 to 16 hours to be able to vote.

    I think they would revolt if they were required by law to vote.

    EmptySlime,

    Mitch McConnell literally called a proposal to give federal workers election day off so they could vote a “Democrat power grab”

    In the end my view on it is you’re asking yourself what battlefield you want to fight on when you vote for president. Sure both of the likely options are going to be uphill battles but one seems much easier to battle in than the other.

    hydrospanner,

    Preaching to the choir, I know, but you’d think it’d be pretty fucking telling to American voters when there’s always one party, the same party, fighting against any efforts to make voting and elections easier, more accessible, more transparent, more representative, and more able to accurately reflect the true will of the people.

    Not saying that either side is perfect on that scorecard, but one party, over and over and over again has tirelessly worked to prevent any sort of measure that might allow the American people to have their wishes and interests reflected in their elections.

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    This is exactly why I find it so frustrating when people holler “they’re the same”

    It shows exactly how uninformed they are or how misleading they are being

    It’s really easy to see how each member voted in Congress and it’s really easy to see who supports what

    Not to mention the statements made by the politicians

    flames5123,

    STAR is great. Ranked choice is, at best, it’s a little better than FPP. At worst, it’s the same as FPP. I hate how many people are pushing for FPP, when STAR is just the best choice, by far. At worst, it’s leagues better than FPP and ranked choice.

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I only recently learned about STAR and it really seems great, I’m hoping that I can convince more people in my home state it’s a good idea

    So far my friends and family are on board, and they’ve talked with more people they know

    So only about 200ish down and a few million to go

    frezik,

    That has to happen at the state level, as they control how the elections are conducted.

    Something I try to drum up in these sorts of threads is that your state and local elections can be far more important to pushing progressive policy than federal elections. Most of the work for high speed rail, for example, has to be taken up by state government. The federal government might offer some funding, but they only hold that out there for states to choose to take or not. Same with bicycle lanes, housing, or diverting police funding into more comprehensive solutions. That’s all state and local government.

    Voting for Democrats at the federal level is merely to keep some of that funding sitting out there, and to not actively block progress otherwise. That’s it. That’s what voting them into the White House and Congress is for. The rest needs to be done in your local community.

    Pipoca,

    That has to happen at the state level, as they control how the elections are conducted.

    Ish.

    If each state holds an internal ranked choice election and assigns their electors based on that, almost certainly the result would be that no one has 270 electoral college votes and the house of representatives gets to appoint whoever they want.

    You’d have to have a national ranked choice vote. That’s because ranked choice is inconsistent; you could have an election where A wins every state, but nationally D wins. More likely, though, you’d have vote splitting across states.

    EndlessApollo,

    deleted_by_author

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  • bane_killgrind,

    vanityfair.com/…/george-takei-sexual-assault-accu…

    It’s been 5 years. He’s not a rapist.

    CancerMancer,

    This is what happens when you give your vote away for free. Make the fuckers fight for it. Organize a group on social media that promises to vote for anyone who can meet your demands and canvas for this group. Get enough people and you can form your own slate even.

    UNWILLING_PARTICIPANT,

    I suppose it is different if you only have two main options

    PhlubbaDubba,

    White people out here demanding to see the party’s manager as if it doesn’t immediately out they priv asses.

    PhlubbaDubba,

    Ok Priv

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    You are how democracies die.

    Pipoca,

    What exactly is your alternative?

    Have 4, 8, 12 years of Repubican rule in the hopes of getting a better Democrat? 4 years if Trump was awful enough, and did quite a lot of long-lasting damage.

    If you’re offering me the certainty of a lot more long-lasting, hard to undo damage against the uncertain hope of a bit of progress, you’ll forgive me if I accept the certainty of the status quo combined with pushing for voting method reform at the state and local level.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Apart from the main point he made, and I agree with it, I would love to hear more about his meeting Dr. King. That must be a very interesting story.

    Nath,
    @Nath@aussie.zone avatar

    Dr. King was a Star Trek fan. He convinced Nichelle Nichols to stay on the show when she was toying with leaving to further her career. It’s quite possible that Dr King was the fan meeting Mr Takai.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    True, I forgot about his meeting with Nichelle Nichols. How cool is it that he was a Trekkie?

    SuddenDownpour,

    Vote for the most useful option, then go make a difference in local politics or wherever you can actually influence anything. Limiting your interactions with politics to whining isn’t going to change anything for the better and is definitely not going to get rid of Republicans nor Democrats.

    ALostInquirer,

    […] go make a difference in local politics or wherever you can actually influence anything.

    I agree, however I think most anyone that may only be grumbling may find themselves doing so as they’re stuck on the question of, how do I get involved? Where do I get started with any of it?

    The answers will vary by locality and how they’re organized, but some direction (that is, examples) is better than none.

    Twelve20two,

    If you’re able to go to your town or city hall hearings, there’s that. There are even some interesting/sad/entertaining videos of some from recent times that have been recorded and uploaded online for public viewing

    UNWILLING_PARTICIPANT,

    This is the way. Even if you think voting for the “lesser” option is demeaning, it does no harm if you continue to use direct action as well

    PhlubbaDubba,

    Not to mention how alot of that “direct action” is performative at best (Cash me on insta with all my best makeup and then never even working a food kitchen once because actual solidarity isn’t sexy) while voting actually shifts the national convo over a concerted sustained effort

    UNWILLING_PARTICIPANT,

    Yeah tbf most people probably just skip voting because they feel helpless anyway and then don’t even go to a single protest.

    PhlubbaDubba,

    The true incarnation of MLKs figure of the white moderate, telling you to their face that they’re an ally to the cause and then failing to muster the will to even do the smallest amount of work towards being an ally.

    Lianodel, (edited )

    Hoo boy. Against my better judgment, I’ll wade into this pool.

    1. If voting for either party gets you the same result, fascists wouldn’t be so focused on elections and trying so hard to take the vote away.
    2. Withholding your vote doesn’t do anything. When has losing an election pushed either party left?
    3. Voting doesn’t prevent you from engaging in other forms of direct action.

    Both parties suck. People will needlessly suffer and die no matter who wins. But there are also people who will suffer and die under one party but not the other, and the same can’t be said the other way around. Our democracy is fundamentally flawed, but voting is a tool at our disposal, and we’re in no position to turn anything down.

    Gormadt,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    The amount of people in this thread who don’t understand how our voting system works is too damn high

    You’re absolutely correct in your points

    Especially the “against my better judgement” part, this comment section went to hell really quick

    idunnololz,
    @idunnololz@lemmy.world avatar

    Thank you. I’m also often reminded of this meme when discussions around this happen:

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f52d9262-2891-45fc-9e85-0fda2456b372.png

    Twelve20two,

    Permission to copy and paste this elsewhere for the future?

    Lianodel,

    If you think it would help, sure thing!

    Twelve20two,

    It’s concise and matches how I feel about things, so hopefully it will help if/when I come across people talking about how not voting is actually the best choice

    Lianodel,

    Thanks! I actually took time to make my comment shorter, so I’m glad I successfully got straight to the points. :)

    Malgas,

    Withholding your vote doesn’t do anything.

    Well, not anything good. But it’s mathematically equivalent to half a vote for the major party candidate you like least.

    Gormadt, (edited )
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Personally I’d much rather have the candidate I like the least have a harder time winning

    Ideally they’d even lose

    Edit: Damn autocorrect changed my comment a lot with one simple wrong correction.

    theparadox,

    I continue to hold my nose and vote blue because in virtually every case the Democratic candidate is far better than the Republican candidate (from my left leaning perspective).

    What frustrates me is that I have no power to push the party further left. In my fantasy, crowds of people can shout from the streets “Democratic party, do X or I will withhold my vote!” and the Democrats will lose an election, realize their folly, and move to the left. In reality, they’ll just write those crowds off as unrealistic and unreliable and likely move center to try and court more “independent” votes. With two parties dominating and the current electoral system, that’s just how it goes.

    I don’t have the energy to be the difference, politically. I try to do the right thing and I help people I can in small ways - at work, in my small social circles, and by donating to organizations I trust will help. Hell, I’m afraid to be part of the shouting crowd because doing anything openly could jeopardize my work situation or even my employment. To add to that, I am antisocial, anxious, and too stressed in daily life to really engage in effective, direct action.

    I’m just tired and disheartened. I feel like when I hold my nose and vote blue, sometimes I’m endorsing what I often perceive as a shift to the right.

    Powerful, self-interested, wealthy people on the right though… they can just throw so much money at a problem. It takes so, so many more of us to fight against it. Deep down I know reducing my involvement just gives those assholes more power. It’s what some of them are fighting to do - dishearten the masses so that they’ll just give up.

    I don’t really have a point I guess. I’m just tired. I know that the right is becoming so openly fascist because they know they don’t have the popular support… but they have the resources to drag this out. Maybe even change rules to make it so that breaking the law, even violence, becomes the only way to fight back. I just hope it ends soon. I’m tired of thinking about what it means when they continue to get close to half the votes all across the country.

    Zoboomafoo,
    @Zoboomafoo@lemmy.world avatar

    Change in the party has to come from within. Even though Sanders didn’t get the nomination, he pushed the entire party a good bit to the left.

    More important than that is to get involved at all levels. It’s not as flashy as the Presidency, but your vote for your local school board or town council carries a lot more weight than it does nationally.

    If you’re feeling very spicy, run for one of those positions

    Pipoca,

    What frustrates me is that I have no power to push the party further left.

    The way to do that is exactly the same way that the tea party and MAGA influenced their parties:

    Show up at primaries. Vote for further left primary candidates. Primary centrists.

    Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar won after the previous Democrat decided not to seek re-election. AOC successfully primaried a more centrist Democrat.

    The Senate and House are really, really important. The president isn’t a dictator, and the median senator honestly has a ton of power. Just look at how e.g. John McCain tanked Trump’s Obamacare repeal, and how Manchin has controlled what went into Build Back Better.

    President Bernie Sanders combined with a Republican House, a Republican Senate and our current Republican Supreme Court would get approximately nothing useful done.

    theparadox,

    The tea party was basically astroturfed into existence by the Koch Brothers and other rich assholes. On the left we basically have rich neoliberal assholes who are desperate to do good while still making sure their capitalist class asses stay as rich and relevant as possible. The “good” they do is also, conveniently, great at keeping them politically powerful while simultaneously lessening their tax burden.

    I vote. I research and try to push the most progressive candidates. I still live in a reliably blue district in a relatively blue state. The establishment candidates have always won.

    I’m not encouraging people to give up the fight. I’m just venting because I’m just so fucking tired.

    Thief_of_Crows,

    That’s because voting blue no matter who IS endorsing the shift to the right. Dems will never have incentive to move left to court voters who already vote for them. We have to not vote for them to get that.

    The solution to America’s capitalism problem isn’t going to come electorally. Bernie ran twice and they rigged the primaries against him. Eugene Debs ran openly as a socialist, and they threw him in prison for speaking out against involvement in WW1. He got 3 million votes while in prison too.The best thing you can do right now thats realistic is unionize your work place. We have to beat capitalists at their core of power, not the places they use that power.

    jeremyparker,

    Before Obama, I could still remain quiet when people said “voting for anyone is implicit approval,” or whatever - and for the most part, they’re right - voting is a pretty low level of change.

    I voted for Obama because even if he is a bit of a tool, he’s black, and now a huge group of minority kids saw someone who looks like them in the white house. I voted for him not because of the “HOPE” on his signs but literally to give black kids hope. (And yeah, for the most part, it’s false hope, just like it is for white kids, welcome to the club.) He was a positive symbol and, if it’s a symbol who is also a centrist Democrat, that’s better then a centrist Democrat that isn’t a positive symbol. And a shit ton better than Mitt Romney or whoever the other guy was.

    And then Trump happened, and any respect for the “don’t vote” viewpoint drained out. If you still think both parties are the same at this point, you might want to start asking yourself what else is going on with you - because “not great” is not identical to “fucking terrible”…

    Biden isn’t doing what I want him to do - health care, income inequality, corruption in Congress, etc - but the infrastructure bill isn’t a bad thing. It’s actually a good thing, we need it. We need a lot more, but 1 > 0.

    Lianodel,

    Also, to be blunt… we’ve seen this before. We know from recent history what happens when the DNC nominates the safe, centrist, establishment candidate, who fails to appeal to voters and loses to a Republican. That was 2016. Hillary Clinton lost to Trump. And who did the DNC rally behind right before Super Tuesday? That’s right… Joe Biden.

    alottachairs,
    @alottachairs@beehaw.org avatar

    So basically I’m voting democrat so our government doesnt start killing (more) vulnerable people. What a great system

    pineapplelover,

    This upcoming election I’m voting for independent or 3rd party. Fuck blue or red.

    the_q,

    Trump thanks you for the vote.

    Algaroth,

    There are only two choices that matter, unfortunately. Voting third party may as well mean not voting at all. Vote in primaries, vote locally and vote for whoever is for voting reform.

    Holzkohlen,

    Trumps gonna win because of people like you not voting Democrat. Well done

    WaxedWookie,

    Election day is the one day that isn’t for protest - it’s for keeping the fascists out of power. You can spend the entire rest of the cycle pushing for better.

    Grow the fuck up, stop the virtue signalling, and don’t piss away your vote - how many more opportunities do you think you’ll have to piss away that vote if the Republicans win power?

    banneryear1868,

    Grow the fuck up, stop the virtue signalling

    You will never attract voters by talking to them like this, direct your anger at the party instead cause that’s where the problem is.

    PhlubbaDubba,

    As opposed to you condescending to us who will be in the camps over how we should put on a more convincing argument for you to not vote in a way that makes that more likely?

    banneryear1868,

    We aren’t stupid, we understand strategic voting and how less bad is preferable, we just don’t take this self-righteous position about it that you think enables you to speak down to political allies. You know that can’t work and will push people away, so it makes it seem like you aren’t genuinely concerned if you are so willing to engage in this counter-intuitive approach that can only serve your personal pride.

    Dems don’t want a candidate that could easily win against Trump, Hillary even helped him win the primary, and Dem PACs give money to run ads for fascist Republican candidates, they’re also supplying a fascist government’s genocide as we speak. Shaming left voters who are political allies rather than the party who doesn’t cater to them is a confession.

    WaxedWookie,

    If you’re allowing the fascists to gain power and kill democracy, you’re not my political ally. Left voters don’t hand power to fascists - that’s shameful behaviour.

    banneryear1868,

    Democrats enable fascism by funding Republican fascist primary candidates and selling arms that are explicitly used in a fascist genocide to bomb civilians.

    WaxedWookie,

    And you think that’ll get better because you pissed away your vote on a party that has zero chance of winning, empowering the party that’ll make all of that far worse?

    Fight for them to improve on literally every other day of the election cycle - god knows they need to do better. Don’t to it when your virtue signalling could spell the end of democracy.

    banneryear1868,

    Why do you assume I don’t understand strategic voting?

    WaxedWookie,

    Why did you point out what you did?

    PhlubbaDubba,

    Expecting to be catered to instead of falling in line because people will die otherwise is the confession here.

    If you feel confident to negotiate, doing so is a betrayal, and tone policing the endangered for being mad at you for it is condescension eclipsing anything you’ve ever felt from the establishment DNC that you could easily overwhelm at primaries.

    banneryear1868,

    You don’t know who I am for one and if the DNC wants to win against Trump they would run a candidate who could easily beat him. The money that funds the Democrats comes from the same coffers that fund the GOP, it’s corporate donors who give campaign funds to those who further their interests, which is balanced by catering or branding the party to voters. Both parties are consented on the neoliberal economic arrangement, the immigration policy of Trump is now status quo under Biden, the tarrifs everyone complained about are in full swing still, the weapons that enable fascists around the world are flowing quicker than ever. The illusion of Democrats being a way out of this is, and thinking people can’t strategically vote for them in disapproval because they’re fascism-lite, is denying the ability for change to happen and people to organize. “Don’t say what you feel and fall in line” is helping the downward spiral.

    WaxedWookie,

    I direct my anger at the party plenty - just not on the one day of the election cycle that will threaten democracy.

    banneryear1868,

    Why do you assume someone like me wouldn’t strategically vote in the same manner? I understand strategic voting just fine thanks.

    WaxedWookie,

    Why do you think I assumed that? I certainly said nothing of the sort.

    I did in my first reply to you.

    Because you seemed pretty passionate about defending people engaging in that sort of behaviour. Again, the one day that isn’t for that is the one day democracy is on the line.

    banneryear1868,

    Democracy doesn’t exist when you’re coerced, and the economic conditions behind all of this are consented to by both parties. All the stuff Trump did with tariffs and immigration is still active under the Democrats, I mean Biden is finishing the border wall but you won’t hear Democrat voters complaining now, haven’t heard anything about the kids in cages since the Democrats won either etc. They only care when it’s politically convenient, as good liberals do, it’s about using these examples to look superior in the moment then quietly consenting when it’s not convenient. Pointing out the hypocrisy gets you shamed by them cause they assume you don’t understand strategic voting and how “less bad” can exist, they’d rather explain it over and over like you’re a child than address the fact they actually support fascism too on the down low.

    The liberal take on Democrats right now is basically, “it’s a shame this fascist genocide is hurting Biden’s polling numbers.” I think you’ve already lost if you’re in that position. At least I can say what I see and react to it freely without some institutional obligation to consent to. The impulse to do this is suppressed by Democrats for fear of losing the election, but it’s only through expressing dissatisfaction that you can even begin to organize anything different, everyone hiding their true feelings and quietly consenting is enabling the downward spiral. And they’ll say “yes organize” but as soon as that means coming up against the Democrats it’s “fall in line” again.

    WaxedWookie, (edited )

    So you see one party that’s actively burning things to the ground, and is likely to swap elections with a series of genocides, and another party that’s not undoing the bad things the fascists did, and you say they’re the same, and then vote defend voting in a way that empowers the fascists. You think you’re being coerced because a terrible option exists that you should avoid? Wait till they’re in power.

    You understand why I think this is moronic, right? Childish fucking virtue signalling that risks democracy. As I said, work to make the Democrats better literally every other day of the election cycle, then vote like a goddamned adult - like lives are on the line.

    banneryear1868,

    with a series of genocides

    You mean genocides within your borders, because Democrats are already enabling genocides outside your borders. Like a good liberal you can ignore those or appeal to them at your political convenience.

    And no… you are coerced in to voting Democrat because the alternative is more aggressive fascism. You have no choice but to vote for the less bad option. Democrats give ad money to fascist GOP candidates betting on you doing this, they’re easier to win against because they can run on being the less bad party, coercing your vote out of pure fear of the alternative. I see it’s working well on you. These parties serve donors not you, donors want this and give money to both parties, in return you get to choose the aesthetic of neoliberal capitalism you want to be represented by.

    You think it’s moronic because you’re drawing an equivalency where I’m not, I’m very clearly telling you the differences between GOP and Democrats and you’re choosing to interpret as me saying they’re the same. They’re both right wing parties one is just center-right and uses language of the left to brand themselves with, the other is middle-far right and uses fashy language to brand themselves with.

    My major point is you shouldn’t be happy with this arrangement, strategically voting within this arrangement isn’t profound or complicated, and nobody should be shamed for expressing how the result of the state of politics in the US right now affects them. Instead embrace how bad it is and use that as motivation to organize. As in the past change will come if enough people are hurting enough to organize along class lines, the Populist movement and the Civil Rights movement both came out of labor organizing.

    WaxedWookie,

    Ah - you’re an accelerationist - there’s not a party that perfectly represents you, so you’ll vote in a way that’ll give power to the fascists so they make everything worse, end democracy, ramp up support for the foreign genocide, and commit a bunch domestically so the survivors get fed up enough to hopefully revolt and dismantle that government entirely, rebuild from scratch, and hopefully build something better. Because getting a bunch of workers killed while making life worse for everyone is the strategic, pro-worker thing to do.

    You don’t need to burn everything to the ground and get a bunch of workers killed to organise. You deserve to be first against the wall when the fascists win.

    banneryear1868,

    Uhh no… recognizing the decaying structure of American politics does not mean someone wants that. See how quick you make someone your worst enemy, how liberal of you.

    WaxedWookie,

    I recognise the problems. The issue that that your solution to those problems is to make them all worse, burn democracy to the ground and cause a bunch of genocides because that’ll somehow magically make it better.

    I think I might have overestimated you when I called you an accelerationist - between the incoherent pseudo-leftist nonsense, American diabolist leanings, “fixing” things by electing fascists, performative third-party nonsense, and calling everyone a lib… Are you a Jimmy Dore fan?

    The fascists are the enemy - you’re just their useful idiot… and what an idiot you are.

    banneryear1868,

    Lol okay you’re just making things up out of anger at this point cause you can’t find any faults with what I’ve said. If I was accelerationist I’d say vote GOP but I’m not, strategically vote Democrat so the process is slower, build labor power and fight the economic system that is causing fascism to rise. Just don’t act like you’re high and mighty or exceptionally intelligent for voting for the less bad Democrats because they’re part of this system too.

    Your politics is determined by the economic conditions you’re in and what advances your material interests in that arrangement, you don’t really have control over that. You have ideaology, which is the difference between the values you think you hold with those that advance your material interests. Structural stresses change these conditions and alter the political ideology which people believe advances their interests. That’s happening all the time independent of individual human agency. This is basic dialectics and I also subscribe to Niklas Luhmann’s social systems theory. If you want to actually know my point of view rather than making up weird shit to get internet-angry at.

    WaxedWookie,

    Have I not made it crystal clear that I don’t give a fuck, so long as you vote to keep the fascists out on election day, and then work to improve things at any other moment in the election cycle?

    The fact that you keep coming back to disagree with me and call me a lib when you’re doing exactly what I’m advocating for is unhinged.

    I’m uninterested in the rest of your nonsense (particularly given your deeply weird behavior), and there’s no value in dismantling it.

    banneryear1868,

    Have I not made it crystal clear that I don’t give a fuck

    Kinda more like the opposite

    WaxedWookie,

    What else have I expressed concern about, champ?

    ChickenLadyLovesLife,

    Republicans keep their hold on power by systematically disenfranchising voters who disagree with their policies. In a perfect world, voting for a third-party candidate that has no chance to win might have some positive impact; in our world, it means you’re doing the Republicans’ work for them.

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    This is how democracies die. Fascists come to power when their opposition fractures. I’m not telling you what to do, I’m just telling you how it is. Choose wisely.

    transientDCer,

    Dems should band together and all vote for someone in a third party to show current party leadership you are no longer putting up with their choices and don’t need them. Vote wisely.

    banneryear1868,

    Notice how blue voters shame you instead of questioning why the party isn’t attracting your vote. Think about how you’re being shamed in to voting for a party which provides weapons for an ongoing fascist genocide, then they say if you don’t support this the fascist will win, and it will be your fault. Not the Democrats fault, the ones who could easily run a popular candidate to beat the historically unpopular Trump, nope it’s the fault of the voters they need, and they want to get them by shaming them in to it. Worked great in 2016, keep it up guys, best case the Democrats win and keep funding ad campaigns for fascist GOP candidates, don’t forget Hillary’s campaign helped Trump get the nomination. Downward spiral politics.

    oatscoop, (edited )

    No, candidates “earn your vote” in the primaries – the general election is damage control. The fact that needs to be explained is depressing.

    We saw what abstaining and protest votes got us in 2016 and nobody should be stupid enough to fall for that again. I will absolutely shame someone for being an idiot incapable of pragmatism in a choice between “bad” or “irrecoverably catastrophic” when the options are already outside of their control.

    You know Biden or Trump (or his proxy) is going to be the president in 2024. You also know MAGA voters are organized, motivated, and will turn out to vote for their candidate. It is a bald fact that 3rd party or protest votes will only serve to help Donald Trump get elected and nothing else.

    Good fucking luck forwarding any leftist cause or candidates in your lifetime if Trump is elected.

    banneryear1868,

    Liberal-splaining this ad infinitum, calling people idiots, and blaming those the party (and you) turn away is again a confession. The party won’t change if you don’t focus your concerns in that direction, and shaming your political allies is self-sabotage.

    conneru64,

    As they said, you can push for this change in the primaries. No shame in being principaled or taking a long shot there, but in the general you’re just handing power to a fascist if you don’t vote dem.

    I don’t get why you’re going around every comment here to complain about being talked down to while you seem to not even understand what you’re arguing against.

    oatscoop,

    Well, starting around 2014 various far-right groups ran an effective, coordinated campaign to fracture the left-wing vote and ensure their preferred candidates won… They’d pretend to be liberals and leftists and use social media to argue against voting for the opposition candidate. Away was one of the major efforts.

    They said the exact same things you’re saying now.

    banneryear1868,

    Let me guess I’m also a Russian troll? Walkaway didn’t amount to very much in practice, it was mostly people larping online with a bit of viral marketing around it, one of the organizers I actually doxxed to the FBI after they said they attended the Jan 6 insurrection. (That’s why you don’t register your LLC to your home address.)

    I’m not arguing against voting for the opposition because I understand strategic voting. I’m arguing against the condescending tactic used to shame the left, supposedly your political allies, which I also think is mostly a show people engage in online.

    PhlubbaDubba,

    Those blue voters are probably shaming him because we’re mostly a lot of PoC women and queer folks who are gonna have our rights stripped because fucksticks would rather the GOP have a shot at all nine seats than demean themselves by voting against that for the sake of those for whom the difference is lived every day and is a matter of life or death.

    banneryear1868,

    Why doesn’t the Dem party simply run one of the many popular candidates they know will win against Trump then?

    PhlubbaDubba,

    They might have! Provided you and your condescending ilk could bear the humiliation of descending from your ivory towers to vote in the primaries that select those candidates!

    banneryear1868,

    You have to be elected to become a delegate and for that to happen you need contributions from either grassroots campaign or Democrat PACs who will not support anyone that goes against what their donors want. That’s why very few Democrats are in any way “left” politically, and why they don’t run candidates that will certainly win against Trump. The donors who fund the party don’t want what you and I want, they don’t even necessarily care who wins because the corporations who donate to these PACs also donate to Republican PACs, it’s capitalism and if it’s one thing the two parties have a consensus on it’s the neoliberal consensus.

    Fal,
    @Fal@yiffit.net avatar

    You’re showing how clearly you don’t understand voting or primaries

    banneryear1868,

    You vote for delegates who in turn vote for the candidate, delegates are darlings of the party’s interests not yours. You can’t change the party through this self-reinforcing process, no matter how many times you say you can the party simply is what it is.

    conneru64,

    That would be amazing if they did, but I think you missed the part about human rights being on the line if you don’t strategically vote for them. We’re aware it sucks.

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