Please, for the love of God, VOTE!

I don’t like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.

Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war”. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.

A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.

How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump’s campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?

I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I’ll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

https://files.catbox.moe/cnc9p9.webp

Leate_Wonceslace, (edited )
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

People need to understand that it’s possible to vote against genocide.

No, it doesn’t matter that he’s an active participant in the apparatus that’s creating the genocide, because if he’s in office there’s less genocide. Which is the important part, and pretending otherwise is sophistry. If you abstain from voting, you are increasing the likelihood of more genocide and if you discourage others from voting, you are an active participant in the overall social apparatus that is probabilistically increasing the amount of genocide.

The utility calculation is dead simple: more votes for Biden in key states makes more genocide less likely, and discouraging people from voting for Biden makes more genocide more likely. Therefore, discouraging people from voting for Biden is a pro-genocide strategy and voting for Biden in battleground states is an anti-genocide strategy. I live in a solid blue state, so I reserve the right to vote third party, but I will also encourage other people to vote for Biden.

You should vote for Biden unless you live in a solid blue state, and even then it’s not a bad idea.

Edit: grammar correction

Mirshe,

Even if you’re in a solid blue state, vote for Biden. Because you don’t know if it’s your vote that pushes your state over that line.

Leate_Wonceslace,
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I think your stance on the issue is entirely reasonable.

Ferrous,

The endgame of your utility calculation is genocidal. 30 years from now, I suspect you’ll still be blasting this “vote blue no matter who” nonsense when the choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a repub supporting 10 genocides. You’ve been anchor biased hard as fuck.

Regalia,

In your hypothetical 30 years in the future scenario, this would still be a “more genocide” and “less genocide” pick. We should never have genocide but there’s no way to express that in the US binary voting system, so the choice would have to be tactical.

What do you propose instead?

nomous,

Let’s suppose there are going to be genocides, what’s better, 5 or 10?

Ferrous,

Thank you for defining anchor bias in such a succinct comment.

nomous,

Thanks for not answering a very simple question.

joenforcer,

What’s your plan that makes the endgame not genocidal? Remember to make it fit reality.

Ferrous,

You say “make it fit reality”, but why do I feel like what you really mean is “make sure it does not at all challenge US hegemony”.

If your ecocidal political project whose institutions were devised a blink ago by 30 year old slavers starts going genocidal, your project has lost the right to exist. To put it plainly, I think we all have a duty to start thinking about what dismantling the genocidal US empire would look like: reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country’s undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.

Syrc,

reading marx, getting armed, building networks, embracing anti-capitalism, and preparing for this country’s undeniably inevitable backslide into fascism.

Voting Biden doesn’t prevent you from doing this, you know. Rather, it would probably make it easier.

Xoriff,

Wow how edgy. I don't like either candidate so I'll protest-stay-home. As if not voting is a form of protest.

Actually I'm legitimately curious. Where did that idea come from? Where did you get the idea that voting = endorsement.

If you were stranded in the wilderness and your options were to eat bug1 or bug2, would you choose to starve to death because "well, I just don't want people to think that I enjoy eating cockroach". Get over yourself and your childish mindset. Choosing not to participate is still making a choice.

Maybe when the maga fanatics come for your lgbt+ friends and family you'll think differently. Or maybe not. I don't know you or how comfortable you are with the maga end-game.

Leate_Wonceslace,
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I’m a transhumanist; my endgame is the abolition of all hardships including involuntary death. I want as many as possible among the those alive today to experience the universe beyond the fading of the last stellar remnants. That means clawing and fighting in every way I can and know how to allow as many people alive now to continue living. That means less genocide is better than more genocide, which in turn means that the immediate goal is making a Biden victory as likely as possible as I prepare more long-term projects. The long-term projects eliminate genocide. The Short term projects mitigate genocide. More successful short term projects increases the likelihood of more successful long-term projects.

In short: it is incredibly small-minded, presumptuous, and uncharitable of you to assume that I think voting is the only part of this massive game. Fuck off.

makyo,

Step 1: defeat Trump Step 2: help reshape Democratic party

Because the fact is, if we don’t do step 1 first, we’ll have our work cut out for us the next four or more years just being back in ‘The Resistance’. Which you know isn’t going to make the Dems more liberal, it’s going to pull them to the right as more dissatisfied Trump voters finally peel off.

On the other hand, the more resounding of a defeat we can dish out to the GQP and MAGA, the easier it will be to send them into the wilderness to regroup politically so we can focus all of our energies on the Democratic party.

Cowbee, (edited )

Not advocating for voting third party, but how do you genuinely plan on reshaping the democrat party, and how would this time be different, compared to the past?

makyo,

Sorry I wasn’t clear - I’m saying if you care about reshaping the Dems, you do it after we defeat Trump.

There is no guarantee it will be different this time, that’s politics. But giving up on it isn’t an option - politics happens to us whether we are active or not. But if you’re hoping for change, it’ll be a lot harder to see if Trump gets reelected. I promise you that.

go_go_gadget,

The moment Trump was defeated in 2020 liberal and moderates did exactly what they always do: demand priority over leftists and progressives in every policy disagreement and Biden was happy to oblige.

No. Moderate voters, liberal voters, the DNC, establishment Democrats and Biden will all reshape now or lose to Trump. Make a choice.

makyo,

I’m sorry but this is basically the same argument that I got multiple others in this thread so instead of answering again, I’m going to ask you a question.

What exactly is y’alls game plan then? How do you think you’ll benefit by punishing Biden and helping get Trump elected?

go_go_gadget,

Your question attempts to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard than moderates and liberals.

What is the game plan of moderates, liberals, establishment Democrats and Biden? How do they think they’ll benefit by refusing to make material compromises with leftists and progressives?

Cowbee,

That same line was told during 2020, 2016, 2008, 2000, and so forth. Where is the leftist concession? Where is the Democratic party being pushed? How are you planning on achieving change?

makyo,

You’re basically just repeating yourself now. Like it or not, you’re parroting the played out lines that the Trumpist want us to repeat to strengthen their hand.

Politics isn’t easy but ‘burn it down because they’re not catering to me’ is not a responsible vote this year.

Cowbee,

When will it be time? How do you plan on shaping dems? You’re repeating yourself here.

makyo,

I don’t know what you’re even asking - how do I personally plan to shape the party? If I could wave a magic wand I would but obviously it’s something that is shaped by the collective and we all need to be engaged in the various areas we are passionate about.

This ‘cater to me or else’ sort of nihilism is the laziest sort of attitude and I get really tired of seeing it in liberal circles. I can tell you’re passionate and are probably very politically active in your own ways, but so many people seem to think that withholding their vote will sove the problem and that it then somehow absolves them of having to do anything else.

Cowbee,

You’re wrong on quite a few things here.

How can a leftist meaninfully convince a liberal Capitalist party to move leftward, rather than continuing liberalism? Seriously speaking, if I am a leftist, and I want Leftist change, how do you think I should go about doing that?

It’s not nihilism, it’s not liberalism, and it’s not “cater to me or else,” that’s pure condescension. I am also not planning on witholding my vote, I want genuine leftist change.

Why does promising to vote for liberalism, a right wing ideology, help Leftists unless the DNC feels threatened by a lack of progressive support and thus concedes?

makyo,

If you want leftist change you keep doing the things you are hopefully already doing - joining political groups you are aligned with, making calls, donating, running for office, getting your friends involved, join a union or help start one, etc. etc. And you realize that it isn’t going to happen overnight - it may not even happen in your lifetime. It’s not easy or magic, especially with the things you seem to care about on the further left of the spectrum. That’s going to be a steep hill to climb.

Cowbee,

Do you honestly believe that the left can vote socialism into existence within a liberal Capitalist framework?

Kalysta,

You told me this last fucking election and nothing has changed.

I lost my reproductive freedoms

I fear for my wife’s life whenever we have to travel out of state - she’s trans

Clarance fucking Thomas is threatening to undo gay marriage.

The democrats have done NOTHING for me. And instead i’m watching half of them cheerlead a fucking genocide of brown people in the middle east

How are they different from republicans? How is biden different than trump? He’s trying to pass trump’s immigration plan while letting Bibi murder his neighbors.

Nah fam. I’m officially giving up. People like you who refuse to hold democrats to account have made life worse for everyone.

makyo,

I’m sorry but you are blaming the wrong people for all of this

bigMouthCommie,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

no, no... i think they're onto something

makyo,

It’s clear y’all are trolls at this point

LinkOpensChest_wav,
@LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

This is my question too. I’m old (Gen X), and I’ve never seen the Democrats acting progressive. The last time I had hope was in 08 when I volunteered for the Obama campaign, only for him to out himself as yet another conservative wearing progressive clothes once he took office.

Cowbee,

The correct answer is that politicians are not simply groups of “good” and “evil” people, but people acting in the interests of the US state, and by extension the wealthy Capitalists that guide it.

Democrats are not a party of positive, incremental change, even if that’s how they position themselves. They act swiftly in the direction of liberalism, and only make concessions to leftists and progressives when they become threatening, not when leftists cooperate.

Waiting and voting harder for the least worst candidates just continues their existing trends, if the Dems had overwhelming support they would continue to do the bare minimum.

It’s not a coincidence that the GOP is far more radically fascist, that’s where they get their votes! That’s why the GOP manages to do a lot of damage, because if they didn’t, they would get tossed aside for another party. They cling on with barely enough support to occasionally get elected despite Democrat majority.

LinkOpensChest_wav,
@LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I wish I could upvote this one more than once. This is spot on, I think.

Cowbee,

Maybe Marx had some good ideas, that’s all I’m saying, haha.

LinkOpensChest_wav,
@LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I think “Marx had some good ideas” is a statement leftists of every ideology can agree on!

Syrc,

This is a really contrived hypothesis and probably wishful thinking considering the current state of the world, but hear me out:

You know how the Overton window gets shifted? Rightwing voters grew a lot in the US and Democrats had to get more to the right to appeal to them and not keep losing.

We just need to force the reverse. If Democrats keep winning elections Republicans will be forced to put out a candidate that’s more palatable to leftists sooner or later. Someone who isn’t a literal movie villain. At that point, Democrats will lose their only selling point (being the alternative to Satan himself), and they will have to actually push for leftist policies to get people to vote.

This can only happen if Democrats win a lot of times in a row though. Even one Republican win will ensure them that they can keep pushing fascists and have a chance to win.

Cowbee,

The thing I generally disagree with is the idea that Democrats would move leftward, and not just further into Liberalism. Even Social Democracies in the Nordic countries are seeing a decrease in the welfare state, just like Reagan did with FDR-era policies.

go_go_gadget,

We defeated Trump in 2020. Nothing changed and Biden spent his entire term catering to liberals and moderates.

Xin_shill,

And republicans and fascists and corporations and Wall Street… hmmm but he did almost cancel a lot of student debt, but actual trying to cancel most people’s student debt was “too high”. No cracking down on predatory lending or anything. Plenty of other countries have free college, but its just too damn hard in the worlds richest country, you know jack.

Earn the vote Biden.

joenforcer,

He can’t do it because Congress is too divided because you didn’t fucking vote.

go_go_gadget, (edited )

Who didn’t vote? What senate races were reasonably within reach that people didn’t show up for? Same question for the house.

gmtom,

Me when I don’t understand what the house and senate are.

makyo,

Sorry if I am missing your point - did you think he’d cater to conservatives?

go_go_gadget, (edited )

Lol! I expected him to make material compromises with the millions of progressives and leftists who held their nose and voted for him. The fact that you seem completely unaware of these factions Democrats depend on to win elections is just… a perfect example of how out of touch liberal and moderate voters are. They can’t win elections without our votes. They need to start acting like it.

makyo,

Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.

And while we should absolutely hold his feet to the fire to pull him further left, saying “earn my vote or else” with the ‘or else’ being Trump, is not a very practical threat. Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.

If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.

go_go_gadget, (edited )

Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but

I’m not trying to tell you what to call yourself but if you spend all your time and energy arguing against leftists instead of moderates and liberals what exactly makes you left? Call yourself whatever you like but your actions are indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal.

I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.

🙄Oh please, do tell me what material leftist victory was made by Biden. A bunch of corporate handouts? Not leftist. Passing the IRA? That was the BBB stripped of everything leftists and progressives were excited about. Maybe you’re so delusional you think blocking a rail strike is a leftist victory. Or maybe you think shipping weapons to a country committing genocide is some kind of leftist victory. Or raising the defense budget. Or forcing federal workers back to the office. Or setting Yellen and Powell on a war path against American workers.

You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.

If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.

The stuff I care about was already held back four years with Biden.

Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.

Yeah I’ve heard this plenty. You realize this cuts both ways right? Moderate and liberal voters refusing to compromise with leftists and progressives is every bit the same. Why are you trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard?

makyo,

I’m arguing with other leftists because I have hope that I can help them make the right choice strategically while countering the rampant rightwing disinfo which like it or not, that’s what you’re parroting.

go_go_gadget, (edited )

Again, you’re indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal. You talk like one, you act like one, you vote like one. Regardless of what you believe you’re not doing anything that would accomplish anything we’re fighting for.

makyo,

Abstaining from voting this election will drive the leftist cause backwards so not accomplishing anything would be much preferrable.

Kalysta,

And you will make the exact same argument next election. And the one after that. And the one after that.

go_go_gadget,

Four years of Biden has driven us backwards. If moderates and liberals refuse to compromise with us now when they themselves believe democracy is at stake what does that tell you? They never will.

I am done propping up their trash procorporate candidates. If they aren’t willing to fight fascism head on then it’s not a choice between fascism and democracy it’s a choice between fascism now or later.

I choose now. You’re free to make your own choice.

Cowbee,

How has Biden meaningfully moved America towards some form of worker ownership of the Means of Production, and away from Capitalist ownership of the Means of Production?

When will the Democrats move to the left? Will it be next election? What about the one after that? Why has this same line been tossed for decades, prevent fascism now, leftism later?

I ask this as a leftist that will probably hold my nose and vote for Biden: why on Earth do you imagine the DNC will ever move leftwards, instead of remaining liberal right-wingers?

Ultragigagigantic,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

Fuck that, pass electoral reform so people can vote 3rd party with no spoiler effect and leave these dinosaur political parties in the past where they belong.

makyo,

Do you think it’ll be easier or harder to get electoral reform passed if Trump is elected?

WraithGear, (edited )
@WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

I think that the threat of losing to trump is the most powerful leverage progressives and leftists have at getting actual reformation of the party, and this election is the democrats race to lose.

So right now everyone who is pissed at Biden or the democrats, should be letting their anger known and be as loud as possible about it

go_go_gadget,

Agreed.

Either moderate and liberal voters along with establishment Democrats and Biden make a big pivot or this will go down in history as a lesson: do not fuck with labor.

WraithGear,
@WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

Except step one is repeated every. damn. time.

Its never time to reshape the Democratic Party. If the democrats win, it will be too early to fix the Democratic Party for millions of reasons. And four years pass and every campaign promise is ignored, and all of a sudden it’s back to 1. Beat the new threat to “democracy” 2. Fix the Democratic Party… ad nauseam forever.

Syrc,

We can’t do that if people don’t vote actual leftist in the primaries because “commies won’t win the general”.

makyo,

It’s never too early to help shape the Democratic party, absolutely do it now. But it’s a long process and if you can’t see how it has changed in the last 20 years already I don’t know what to tell you. And beating Trump is priority #1 if we’re going to continue on that path.

Pan_Ziemniak,

Bc boomers have strangeholded our govt for decades. Its convenient that now that theyre dying off this is the shit we get to try and elect the actual genocidal maniac and not the dinosaur keeping to the same foreign policy the US has kept for 70 yrs in order to keep our other allies from thinking we will abandon them the way we did the Kurds or Ukraine.

funky_rodent,
@funky_rodent@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Yo you kids can’t behave, I will look this now, it’s Easter and I don’t want to have this burning here

peg,

Who to vote for. Tweedledum or Tweedledee?

If the Democrats want left-wing votes they should appeal to left-wing voters rather than just take them for granted. The reality is that there’s little difference between Biden and Trump. Just two sides of the same old corporatist coin.

LazyPhilosopher,

No.

Sagittarii,

Well, it’s fine as long as you’re not voting for one of the genocidal candidates.

Zummy, (edited )

People think we have lived in a world of Democrats vs. Republicans. However, it’s always been a case of the rich vs. the not rich. The rich always wins, the rich always supports the rich, and the rich doesn’t give a flying fuck about you if you’re not a millionaire or a billionaire. So we can argue over Trump vs. Biden until we’re blue in the face. And we all know Trump is a piece of shit, but if you think Biden will do anything in the next 4 years that he didn’t do the previous 4 years you are delusional. I will vote for Biden, but I understand the outcome. Anyone that thinks Biden will do shit for them is either rich or lying to themselves.

diannetea,

I think of it this way, I’m not voting for Biden, I’m voting against Trump

They both suck but I know which is worse for some of my friends and family

samara, (edited )

The number of people in my extended network that feel entitled to my vote is pretty mind-boggling. Fuck them. I’ll vote my conscience. If more people vote third-party it will pull center politicians further in whatever direction you vote. Fuck voting against someone. Vote for something.

Pan_Ziemniak,

You wont get to pull dems anywhere if trump enacts project 2025.

The older generation is at their tipping point before the youth take the reins. Its no coincidence those trying to push for another trump term want u to either abstain or vote third party, i.e. the spoiler effect.

Masterblaster420,

If more people vote third-party it will pull center politicians further in whatever direction you vote

oh you naive child. you’re willing to doom us all for your ‘conscience’. what a spoiled, privileged brat.

Trarmp,

Yeah, that only works if such third party is nearly as large as the republicans, which it isn’t. Until then they’ll sooner try to appease right wing voters.

EmptySlime, (edited )

Yeah. The Democrats have been doing this for like 30 years at this point. The people who “vote their conscience” or try to “revoke their consent” get used as a scapegoat to chase Moderates and disaffected Republicans. They punch left crying how they’re not those crazy hippies and they’re actually just the reasonable common sense consensus. Like bloody fucking hell this exact thing happened in 2016.

Bernie Bros got vilified for Clinton losing and did any of them look at all the people that went from Bernie in the primary to Jill Stein or even to Trump and say “Hey, maybe this Bernie guy was on to something?” and move even a little left? No, they went with Mr. Bipartisanship, because he was “more electable” to the moderates. But every 4 years like clockwork it’s “No guys trust me, this time they’ll learn their lesson and stop putting forward neoliberal ghouls. We just didn’t threaten their power enough last time.” It’s maddening

peg,

Doom you to more of the same.

A22546889, (edited )

Becareful, you’re throwing stones in a glass house. (edit for spelling)

SuperApples,
@SuperApples@lemmy.world avatar

I’m from a country with ranked choice voting. We can vote for our preferred third-party candidate and it’s not only fine but better. Even if they don’t get in, they will get a portion of government money for help with campaigning in future elections, and our vote for the first viable candidate will be counted instead.

In the USA this is totally not the case. Your electoral system is designed to prevent third-party votes from meaning anything. As an anarchist who hates the politics of both neoliberal US major parties, I would still vote democrat, because a third-party vote is literally a wasted vote. It does not influence the 2 major parties in any way. They know there is no real threat from minor parties or independents unless they have massive overwhelming majority support.

Change the system through political action, community engagement, and spreading information. This vote will not change a thing unless it’s for a major party, and only really if you’re in a swing state. It’s shit but true.

oatscoop,

You’re right: nobody is entitled to your vote.

That being said, everyone else has the right to judge and comment on your choice and justification of it.

Zink,

I like the line from the image in the OP that says how a vote is not some kind of statement of ideals, full endorsement, or marriage contract, it is your chance to influence the outcome if you care to.

I always feel compelled to make the pragmatic choice because I do very much care to influence the races that will have real effects on me or my fellow citizens.

And it sucks, because it does feed into and perpetuate the first past the post two-party system. But our electoral system is set up to be extremely difficult to change.

megopie,

If moderates really don’t want trump to win so bad, maybe they should make some real commitments to policy changes that the left want, not just half baked, watered down “market based” solutions that get shredded to a skeleton in committee.

Moderates can scream their lungs out all they want, but talk is cheap, and if they want the left on side they should earn that and not act so entitled to their support. Trump is bad, he shouldn’t win, but why is it on the left to keep him from winning? Why is it never the moderates fault for failing to hold up their end of the coalition?

Pan_Ziemniak,

Bc the left has a really hard time coming together and we wont get another election if we dont.

SlopppyEngineer, (edited )

The left never had a good story. The right will be there, proclaiming how kicking the immigrants out or whatever will make the world better. It might not be true, but it gets attention and votes. The left will tell you how this list of 50 law changes will make things less bad.

Pan_Ziemniak,

The right relies on ppl to be exploited so they dont have the time nor the expedience in critical thinking to be able to tell what needs be done. This is why its important to maintain some amount of sympathetic perspective towards others. The left leaning neoliberals i meet arent enemies. They are victims of propaganda. Opening up lines of communication, building bridges, showing u understand their side by voting for damage control, these earn sympathies.

juicy,

Stop pretending to be on the left.

midwest.social/comment/8554707:

“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.

Pan_Ziemniak,

Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.

We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.

VinnyDaCat, (edited )

Let’s be real, this isn’t about people not voting anymore.

Those of us who have resolved to vote Biden despite much of our displeasure towards the handling of Israel/Gaze were going to do so anyways. You won’t convince those who have decided not to vote this way either.

Screaming at people to vote will not make them want to vote. Worst case scenario you piss them off enough that the spite vote against you. People aren’t puppets for you to control by telling them what’s in their bests interests and demanding they follow through. You have to work with them in a pleasant manner if you genuinely want to convince them.

But again, I don’t think this is about people not voting anymore. Some people are genuinely unhappy that others are unhappy with their options for candidates. So many people on the moderate left can’t be satisfied with the fact that they have such a firm grip on intelligent voters who understand the status quo. It’s not enough for them to know that our options are bleak and that we have to vote for someone supporting genocide, versus letting someone who would openly participate in genocide get in office. You genuinely want us to shut up and stop complaining and to stop criticizing the current administration.

Also, the amount of people I’ve seen discuss implementing mandatory voting as if it wasn’t a trait of an authoritarian government is insane. Maybe if our voting process had more options it wouldn’t be authoritarian, but as it stands now making voting mandatory would be little more than coercion.

Masterblaster420,

Screaming at people to vote will not make them want to vote. Worst case scenario you piss them off enough that the spite vote against you.

if people are that petty and childish, then fuck it. let them live in their spite world alongside the sociopathic, conservative right. i’m so sick of the lack of humanity in america.

megopie,

Mandatory voting usually just amounts to requiring people show up at the polls, they can spoil ballots or write in joke candidates.

It’s not exactly authoritarian, but it wouldn’t really change the situation like some think it would.

Really, the moderate left needs to get it through their fucking heads that the left aren’t their fucking rebound date when the moderate right shits the bed.

If they want the left’s vote, if they fucking want to keep trump from winning, they need to appeal to voters not just patronizingly talk down to them.

The onus is as much on the moderates as it is on the left.

VinnyDaCat,

I consider it more so authoritarian in this context due to the expectations of those demanding it.

Joke candidates/blank ballots would not stand with them. Part of voting is being able to withhold your vote, to utilize your vote as leverage to ensure your representatives work for you, and that’s a big freedom that’s would be stripped away here. You’re right that it probably wouldn’t change much though. You’d potentially do more damage by having uninformed voters who wouldn’t otherwise show up submitting ballots.

You summed up most of my feelings rather nicely though.

Personally, I don’t believe the moderates truly hate Trump as much as they say they do. In fact, they appreciate him. He is the perfect looming threat that they can use to coerce us into voting for them without them having to compensate or do any meaningful work towards addressing voter’s concerns.

Either that, or they are genuinely tone-deaf and out of touch. Take your pick I suppose.

megopie,

Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of moderates and the democratic establishment don’t seem like those who genuinely want to prevent trump from winning again if it requires them to make concessions or go against lobbyists.

AWistfulNihilist,

The DNC loves running against Trump. He’s the most effective propoganda tool since communism. The fact that I’ve seen this stupid fucking meme on every possibly meme channel in like 4 to 8 hour increments is legit demented.

Highlybaked,

Completely agree, I also think it’s baffling people equate the whole gaza thing to Biden, good luck finding any American president who doesn’t grab his ankles for israel

Pan_Ziemniak,

If we (leftists) want ranked choice voting, we should probably vote against the guy who doesnt want any more elections after this.

The democratic base is aging just as the gop is. The base they will have to cater towards to survive, is going to be more progressive. We need to survive til then to take that situation and use it to our ends to shift the overton window as far left as she goes.

juicy,

Stop pretending to be a leftist. You support the genocide.

midwest.social/comment/8554707:

“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.

Pan_Ziemniak,

Since u ignored it when i first wrote it to spam ur bs like the bad faith troll u are, here it is for everyone else,

Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.

We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.

EndlessNightmare,

Indeed, you’ve spelled it out plainly: there is no vote option to end the U.S. funding of Israel’s genocide in Gaza.

I can either make a vote that won’t end it, or I can make a vote that won’t end it (and may actually make it worse, as you alluded) and will also lead to significant negative consequences for many groups of people here.

If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

Not just trans, but homosexual, non-white, non-religious, women.

AVincentInSpace,

THANK YOU.

juicy,

There are several options if you refuse to vote for genocide. You have just decided you don’t mind.

umbrella, (edited )
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

you guys just dont want to get it do you?

i dont care about making you feel better with your right wing democrat. go actually do something about trump if you care so much.

wanderingmagus,

Honestly? Posts like yours make me consider voting for Trump just to show the world the consequences of your attitude. Maybe after you and everyone you love end up hunted down by the death squads or put on a train, the idea that maybe, just maybe, you should’ve reconsidered while you still had the chance will enter your head. Fuck it, I already enlisted in the military, might as well wear the jackboot while I’m at it.

Zehzin,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Least psycho boot boy.

wanderingmagus,

Y’all were the ones saying not even to bother voting because the whole thing’s rigged and hopeless, so if you can’t beat 'em, fuck it, join 'em. As long as you’re not in a position of power when the big guy gets taken down, it doesn’t look like anyone ever cares, and you might even get a standing ovation in Canada.

AVincentInSpace, (edited )

I don’t want to get it?

Half the comments in this thread consist exclusively of arguments addressed in the original post, and when I reply explaining it more simply they admit point blank to not reading my response and insist on continuing to not vote… and I’m the one who doesn’t want to get it?

Sweet lord, there is no talking to you people.

I don’t feel good about the democrat. I don’t want to feel good about the democrat. But unlike some people I could name I will not assist in putting a self-professed dictator back in power.

What do you propose I do about Trump? Assassinate him?

umbrella, (edited )
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

nobody is even advocating not to vote, but you guys keep insisting thats what we are saying. go vote if you want to.

we are just saying scribbling on a ballot and casting it for a right winger wont change any outcome. biden is just as fascist, hes just not bragging about it. the us is already not democratic, this is just theater.

they wont let you vote their power away. you want change go organize with any leftist organization at all, strike, disrupt and disobey collectively with them. socialism is the only thing that was ever capable of stopping fascists.

the rich seem to want trump anyway and its already too late to stop him, but he doesnt matter if you force their hand instead of just apathetically voting every 4 years like it will save you from fascism.

Pan_Ziemniak,

“Too late to stop him(trump)”

Really? Bc it sure seems like it aint.

The spoiler effect means voting for third party is essentially a vote for trump, so we must vote for the lesser evil. Look to the Spanish anarchists. Theyve a politically engaged political party since the late 1800s bc the second tenet they list is to make life more tenable under the current (in their eyes) transitory system.

We must pursue direct action, establish systems of mutual aid, and we must vote to keep the russian agent from criminalizing leftists for thoughtcrime.

Every available avenue is to be taken, bc we dont get to be picky, and every leftward push should be embraced regardless of how far or little it pushes. Its the sum of parts that counts. You think MLK jr would refuse to stage disruptive protests bc the man standing next to him might not yet be disillusioned with capital as much as he? That is what solidarity means. Solidarity to even those that u disagree with.

cobra89,

When morons like you throw around the word fascist it loses all meaning. Fucking too busy calling Biden a fascist to prevent the actual fascist from gaining office. The irony is palpable.

umbrella, (edited )
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

study the definition of fascism, you might find out it didnt even start with him.

DingoBilly,

So many dumb Americans here not voting. Cutting off your legs so you can hold the moral high ground. Moronic.

megopie,

Why is the onus on the left? How come it’s never on moderates for being such poor coalition partners that knee cap their proposals at every opportunity?

Masterblaster420,

who cares about placing blame? you sound like a kid crying to your mommy. JUST DO THE RIGHT THING GODDAMNIT.

A22546889,

Because of how you’re acting guess which way my vote is going?

Grabthar,

You aren’t voting at all, comrade.

DingoBilly,

Why is the onus on the left to vote left to promote left values? Because that’s how voting works?

I’m not sure how to answer that question. Reword it as “Why is the onus on the right to elect a right-wing candidate?” maybe to see.

Cowbee,

Biden isn’t left, that’s why they are asking why thr DNC feels entitled to Leftist votes while refusing to concede.

megopie,

Right now, voting for the current set of candidates will not support the values of the left, it will promote the values of the moderate middle. if the moderate middle wants to prevent another term of trump, they need to give real commitments to policy agendas that will convince disaffected voters to show up. Threatening them with another term of trump clearly is not working, telling them that they should be grateful for what they already got clearly is not working.

If the Democratic Party wants disaffected voters to show up, then the democrat establishment needs to work to earn those votes. If they do not then trump will win, and it will be as much their fault as the people who didn’t vote.

DingoBilly,

Sure. But it’s a two way street. Climate change is important but you don’t realistically solve it by stopping everything coal powered tomorrow. You have to gradually introduce it.

I don’t know if it’s a younger generation thing, but they’re not patient and demand change now when it’s just not realistic. Change is glacially slow. Voting in something that’s not ideal is better than voting in something completely opposite.

The more you allow that left or moderate side to win, the more the axis changes towards it, which is still a win if you’re left/moderate as it moves it away from the right. It’s this last bit some people don’t understand.

megopie, (edited )

Change is slow, and you will get none if politicians do not make concrete commitments. And we don’t get any concrete commitments from them unless they think they need them to win.

Voting is not enough, and only voting does not free one from complicity. Especially if the side one votes for loses because they refused to make commitments that convinced voters to show up for them. Right now, the democrats are not making commitments that are getting voters out. And condescending to other voters because you think they are naïve does not get voters out ether, if anything, it might push them away.

If we want to prevent trump we need to get the Democratic Party to make commitments that will get voters to show up. Not tell people they are dumb for demanding more from their government than “not being trump”.

maynarkh,

I don’t know how to tell you, but dude, your country (and many others) is literally on fire every year. Even if we did something very drastic, like keep up the COVID lockdowns, Florida is going to be flooded. The United States will lose towns, villages, cities, territory it will never recover. The country will be full of climate refugees. It is like a war where you can’t shoot back. I don’t know how else to put it.

How long have you been trying to reform healthcare? And it’s still not getting better, is it? Only maybe “glacially”. Trump’s regressive changes weren’t glacial. He undid half a century of alliances and trust in years. Sure, vote Biden, but voting Biden is not a complete solution, it’s not even a band aid. It’s just the saner half of the US trying to hide from the next bullet.

So no, glacial change - “slowly but surely” - won’t cut it. We need radical change, right now, and maybe we will end up with something liveable in 25 years.

braxy29,

throughout reading this thread, what echoes in my mind over and over is this - “the perfect is the enemy of the good.” and honestly, right now i’m defining “good” as “not-fascism,” “not-Trump,” “not the man who will burn it all down as quickly as possible.”

yes, i’m hiding from the next bullet. i’m hiding myself, my family, my friends, my co-workers and clients. my choices are the man with the loaded gun who has TOLD us what to expect, and any other possible alternative.

for now, i happen to think this is GOOD ENOUGH, and those who would sacrifice that on principle have not really imagined what is very likely to happen next. i’m sorry i can’t save the people of Gaza, but i can try to save those i know and love.

hobbes_,

It is on both the moderates and the left? Because neither group is enough on its own to win?

You keep asking this question and I find it very hard to believe you don’t already know the answer.

Pan_Ziemniak,

The onus is on us all to keep democracy alive.

It is on us to take all available paths towards alleviating the situation. Voting is the easiest and least u can do. Past that, theres mutual aid and direct action. Take as many paths as u can, but any and all leftward movement must be embraced.

The “moderates” u mention are the future right wing of the country. The gop is on a sinking ship. Their base is dying (of old age and at twice the rate due to covid), and the youth lean increasingly left. Our time is upon us, but right now trump represents an existential threat to life as we know it. He is a hostile foreign agent and those paths open to us will suddenly close under him.

juicy,

Why are you in here cosplaying as a leftist when you support the genocide?

midwest.social/comment/8554707:

“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.

Pan_Ziemniak,

Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.

We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.

lemmywinks,

I’ll be voting for Kennedy.

Tinidril,

Voting for Kennedy on principle. Fuck,that is hilarious. Kennedy is more pro-Israel than even Biden, and he is a complete whack job besides.

chakan2,
@chakan2@lemmy.world avatar

Ok…so after we’ve all voted and Trump emerges from the dust of apathy over who’s the oldest bitterest man in America …what then?

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