Standing my ground on going back to the office

I guess this is a correct community to post about this? If not let me know.

My company finally is asking politely that we have to go to the office twice a week. Or else. That else is not yet defined, but obviously there will be consequences of not going to the office.

I have been at this company for 15 years, from junior dev to manager.

I did a daily commute of about 40 mins in the morning, 40 to an hour back, never gave a second thought about that. That was normal.

After pandemics, I found out all I have been missing on my kids growing up. My second kid is much more attached to me since she saw me daily, even if I was in my office room at home, she got to see me more often.

So I found out how much my life improved by doing working at home. Hell in the middle of this sentence my kid just showed me some thing she drew.

I stood my ground, I basically politely told HR that I am not going back. And actually my reasons make sense, I work with people in other countries, they don’t care where I am.

And it will affect my performance, driving to the office, moving all my equipment, and having people around trying to talk to me will take a toll.

So yeah, I am polishing my resume, because there is no turning back now. I will be shunted if I ask for a raise, they can easily say “hey but you are not coming to the office, how come you want a raise if you are not part of the team”, never mind that I do everything that is expected and more.

Just off my chest I guess, and anxious about the future.

donut4ever,

Time for a new job. There are plenty of remote jobs out there. You have good experience under your belt, so don’t let them scare you into going into the office. Give them the bird and leave. Companies don’t care about you, no matter how long you’ve been with them, and you shouldn’t care either. And no, your team isn’t your family, they’re just people you work with. Don’t be attached.

hamster,

I don't think there are plenty of remote jobs anymore. They're highly sought after.

outdated_belated, (edited )

Can confirm - have been looking for four months for remote roles. I’ve done maybe 20 or so interviews to various stages, but no offers.

The industry in general is bleak right now.

But it is possible; probably easier with 15 YoE.

PutangInaMo,

What kinds of positions are you applying to?

outdated_belated, (edited )

mid-level (5ish YoE) SWE and MLE/ MLOps roles

More annoyingly, there have been so many baits and switches/ playing fast and loose with the term remote.

  • Job description title: "remote"
  • Job description body: “remote 2 days a week!”

or, halfway through the process

“Sorry, initial job description has been filled. Here’s another role, though, which is incidentally equivalent to the old one but the job description now says hybrid!! :) :)”

PutangInaMo,

Ah nice you’re on a good track (I can’t do AI/ML).

I feel you on that bait and switch, these recruiters are savages and companies desperate.

outdated_belated,

Is that good lol Tbh I’m trying to get away from it and become a backend generalist because I’m sick of the (1) ML hype that leads to absurdly unrealistic / unsatisfiable requirements and (2) the need to work with internal customers (data science people, etc)

MajorHavoc,

You and I have had very different experiences. My organization has grown my 5x in the last few years and all added positions were fully remote.

But I agree that remote roles are highly sought after. I think there’s a correlation effect: Excellent dev managers create fully remote teams, and word gets out that they’re excellent to work for.

This will, sadly, settle out when the shitty managers catch on.

On a more personal note, hang in there. You can be top tier talent and still walk into a desirable job interview right after a unicorn candidate for that role.

Poringo,

Yes, I am old enough to know that you are selling your expertise and time.

The company obviously profits a lot more that what you receive.

Also I always cringe with this “family” stuff on any company, that is just a way to manipulate the employees into creating a relationship with the company.

ThePowerOfGeek,

“We’re family!.. If you count those toxic families that are governed by raging narcissists. You wanted vindictive feuds, useless arbitrary rules, power-tripping, victim blaming, a cult of personality over management, and extreme punitive actions, right? Right?!”

My last place had a strong cult vibe to it. That was bad enough. But the part that really tripped me out were the overly-bubbly ‘glee squad’ employees who spent half their time fishing over how life changing our employer was, and the other half literally crying over… how life changing our employer was. It was incredibly cringe. I felt embarrassed for them.

MajorHavoc,

I once worked at one of those “family” places.

One day the boss told me he didn’t think I was particularly dedicated to that place.

I said “No shit. That’s why you have to pay me to show up every day.”

That put an end to that line of reasoning.

Mantis_Toboggan,
@Mantis_Toboggan@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve seen in tech. But the great majority of those are either US or EU only. Outside of that, it’s pretty bleak.

node815,
@node815@lemmy.world avatar

Everyone’s comments here made me realize just how bad it is still with employers trying to get warm bodies in the office. My company used to be “Everyone who works from home wastes time and is less productive” They quickly realized when their hands were forced and the pandemic hit, there were much less sick days, and productivity has never been higher!

Diplomjodler,

There are two reasons they want people back in the office: control and real estate. Managers maintain power by controlling and manipulating people. That’s harder to do if you’re not present. Corporations have huge investments in real estate and don’t want to see these drop in value. None of these reasons convey any benefit to the employee.

cyberpunk007,

Fuck ya, preach it. I’m in the same boat but not quite yet being forced to go back. But if I go back… I’ll walk lol. The time is worth so much to me.

Gnubyte,

Be extremely anxious. These companies are looking for those that bend the knee. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been with them one year or fourty. If they find a reason to make you the example they will certainly do it especially if you’re in the tech sector.

I applaud you standing your ground but my advice is to actually find a job or two that suites your situation and apply to it. Having options and offers is better.

Powerpoint,

They are only hurting themselves. Remote workers are more productive and they are going to lose you to a remote company. The only people wanting to go back are those who waste time at the water cooler and had no life of their own.

BilboBargains,

Things you never hear people say ‘I’m looking forward to a long commute and spending all day in an office’.

Why is this even a discussion point?Working from home has been such a game changer. It’s better for family life, it’s better for the environment, it’s efficient. Much of the anxiety around homeworking is the suspicion that people work less. The fact is, if your job sucks you are not doing it wherever it happens to be.

InFerNo,

What you will hear people say is that they’re happy to get out of the house, and see people in real life instead of through a screen.

I was negotiating the number of days down to one, coming from 3 in the proposal, for my entire team until 1 guy said he didn’t mind coming in more often. During the negotiations. With the boss. They clocked it at 2 days. They kept circling back to the guy saying there clearly are people who want to come in more often. I coulda slapped him then and there. WFH is optional. He could have come in any day he wanted, 5 days or whatever, he just didn’t want to sit there alone.

BilboBargains,

Exactly. We want to decide when it is appropriate to attend the office. I personally dislike video con meetings, there is something about being in the company of people that improves communication and promotes a sense of well-being. On the other hand, the price of meeting people in person is feeling completely exhausted from waking at 5am and coming home at 8pm. That’s sustainable and actually desirable one day a week but there’s no way I could do this every day without making myself miserable. I count my blessings that I’m in a position to make this choice.

CaptObvious,

Oh, if he were on my team, “alone” would be the least of his worries.

Mewtwo,
@Mewtwo@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

My commute to work is a 8 minute walk. I used to drive 30 minutes one way and was so exhausted after driving I would fall asleep after getting home.

Removing the commute time and mental demand from driving and replacing it with a walk home where I can unpack my thoughts has massively improved my personal life. I’m really lucky, the pay is bad for my position but the alternative is a 10k pay increase with 60-90 minutes driving a day (plus CA gas).

I manage people that make the same or slightly more than me, but they drive 30-60 min one way, so in the end I’m benefiting more.

BilboBargains,

Long drives can be extremely stressful, whether we consciously acknowledge it or not. My last job was extremely stressful but one thing that wasn’t adding to that was the ten minute bike ride each way. I never had to worry about traffic and being late because it was always ten minutes. Commuting is often under-rated as a quality of life factor. I think the most stress inducing bicycle commute by far was the day I ran over a squirrel.

iyaerP,

We need to start a remote workers union.

op_maroon,

I went freelance after covid. The management’s attitude towards WFH really underlined for me how little they cared for their employees. It’s not the kind of work people need to be in the office for, yet they kept pushing, and surprise surprise, wave after wave of covid went through the people that thought being in the office was a good idea. People are still suffering the effects years on. Couldn’t be happier now I’m working for myself.

MrSilkworm,
@MrSilkworm@lemmy.world avatar

You did the right thing my dude. If it makes you feel any better, today I left from work 30 minutes earlier to get my children from day care, a thing I have agreed with my manager to do during this month because I have no one else to do it and he agreed since I have a lot of overtime owed to me. The thing is that today the GM and the SM of the organization were here and I was in the meeting room with them. When the time came I just said, “well If you excuse me, I have to go get the kids”, shaked hands with the GM and left. I remember everyone in the room looking at me the way you would imagine. Anyway. We have good unions in my country and it was all legal. I’m giving 100% everyday, not an inch higher. Apparently, I might not be promotion melaterial, but my kids are on top of everything else and worth every second I can spare for them.

lemme_at_it,

Good for you! Children are only children once, jobs will always be jobs. I definitely am not going back to the office & will freelance if I have to. (software)

FailBait,

I’ve been working from home for 12+ years and I can honestly say I wouldn’t want to work in an office. It would take a very very large number to make me consider it.

Commuting, having to buy “work clothes” etc, adds up. It’s time and money I don’t need to spend.

There was a brief period my boss tried to force us into the office. However anyone I would have to talk to in person was in our CT office (I was asked to go to the NYC office), so it was ultimately pointless and he dropped the issue.

I travel occasionally, for large projects or things that require in-person effort, but it’s not often. I’m currently on my second trip of 2023 and none expected the rest of the year.

(I started as one of two SysAdmins and I’m currently a manager of a SysAdmin team that’s spread out from California, Vegas, Florida and Poland.)

While I do agree face time with people occasionally is nice (we got everyone out on the project earlier this year except for Poland guy) and I find it helps remind you that the voice on the other side of the call is a human but if you have people who can deal with it, it’s not required. Only thing that we gained productivity-wise was a better sense of comradery going forward.

PlanetOfOrd,

Good on you for quitting.

I would HIGHLY advise though, ensuring you have another job lined up before quitting. Lined up as in, you have the paperwork signed. It’s common these days to go months without any work. I’ve been at it for a few years myself, and I’m a tech lead.

Steeve,

You’ve been looking for work for a few years as a tech lead?

PlanetOfOrd,

Yup, but I’m switching things up. (just check my casual conversations post I just posted).

nevernevermore,
nevernevermore avatar

This might not be an answer but my worked also requested us come in 2 days a week. So I ride my bike in around 11am and back home about 1pm. WFH the rest of the hours. I’m all about malicious compliance.

cyberpunk007,

Malicious compliance 😂

cizra,

Heh heh.

My boss insisted that I come in for our 1:1s. 20 minutes later, I’m joining the standup remotely from home. He was like whoa man. I politely explained that I’m working where I can be most productive.

mayo,
@mayo@lemmy.world avatar

I do this too and I actually like this arrangement. I can take a break in the day and bike or walk into work. Hang out for an hour or two and leave. That’s really the gain of going back to office; hanging out with your colleagues. I’m more productive at home.

MariaRomanov,

You have IT manager experience, my dude. You’ll definitely find some remote work either back on the dev side or still in management. My company tried to pull this too but joke’s on them because I moved 200 miles away from the office during Covid. The Economist recently published an article which cites a study that says working from home is not as productive as previously thought, because of the aggregate value that unplanned micro-interactions in the office can provide. Not sure I agree…

TheOctonaut,

Managing a team of developers, “unplanned micro-interactions” are just about the last thing I want them to have more of.

whyrat,

Yeah, a lot of the studies about remote work being less productive I find faulty. In my work/team we saw huge productivity gains. Now company-wide are asking for return to office and I’m telling my team not to comply and refer complaints to me (manager). We do go in once a week (in-person interactions have a benefit, but there’s diminishing returns to how often these in person benefits occur). Often this will be lined up with client meeting, in-person performance reviews, team lunch, etc.

The international remote teams are already complaining. They can’t have the usual meetings because my team is commuting to the office on X day of week. Yeah, early morning meeting with India, EU, etc are a staple now (and part of our productivity boost, it’s better to meet when it’s not super late for them). When commute to office returned I (and others) booked commute as a time block so the international teams didn’t try to get us on calls in the car. If the company wants that time block back for meetings the involved members don’t come in.

This will eventually come to a head, but I’m standing with my team members and improved metrics over blanket C-level demands. The business case is already written up for the first time they complain.

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