My list of services I still miss on the fediverse

Hello folks

I don’t think I’m the only one here who thinks the fediverse is a great technology that connects people all over the world via a robust decentralised network. This network encompasses the widest range of interest groups and the most diverse ways of interacting with each other. Whether forum, video or image platform, whether books or music network, everything is part of one big whole.

Despite this diversity of possibilities, I personally still miss some services that I would like to share with you.

  1. dating apps - A decentralised, open source dating platform on which you can join instances according to interest groups or sexual preferences.
  2. git hosting - A platform where you can host your git repos and collaborate on software projects across instances. (Forgejo is already working on it)
  3. networking and personal profilation platform - A LinkedIn-like platform with instances by industry, interest or region where you can network, present yourself or exchange know-how.
  4. crowdfunding and membership platform - A mixture of Patreon and Kickstarter where you can share your own content according to different support levels and crowdfund projects.
  5. event, group organisation and community participation - A platform on which you can join groups like on Meetup and organise meetings but also internal group interactions like on slack or launch and support civic initiatives like on Decidim.

What do you think of this? What services do you still miss on the Fediverse?

pewgar_seemsimandroid,

gogs.io is open source

PropaGandalf,

But is it federated? Does it support ActivityPub?

pewgar_seemsimandroid,

no? I don’t think so but it is open source unlike GitHub

PropaGandalf,

You may also look at Forgejo.org. They are fully open source, backed by a well known and trusted organisation (codeberg) and they are working on ActivityPub integration.

lambalicious,

I’m not sure 4 could ever be workable, unless the funding, buying and donations can be done on a legal currency that doesn’t track payer identity, operator identity or operator information. Like, you know, cash. Because I’m certainly not going to associate my random internet accounts with my IRL banking info. That would literally give banks the ability to censor the Fediverse.

PropaGandalf,

Does not have to be like that. Crypto can be used on the one hand and for creadit cards it would be an alternative to liberapay or ko-fi.

lambalicious,

crypto

You mean those scam pseudo-coins where I can pay $10 today and it’s worth $0.00093 for the receptor of the payment when they want to use it to eat tomorrow? Sure! That’ll absolutely work!

pewgar_seemsimandroid,

Dogecoin, monero & Bitcoin cash break what you consider cryptocurrency

PropaGandalf,

Wow, that’s quite an elaborate opinion you’ve shat out of yourself!

lambalicious,

Hey, I’d be happy to be proven wrong with a crypto that actually works and isn’t just an excuse to return to the coal economy. Since if it works, it’ll be able to do the thing I was asking about in the first place.

PropaGandalf,

If that’s so I’d recommend looking into particl.io. they actually have a mission to provide a secure, decentralized and anonymous market and trade ecosystem.

Aolley,

Yes, bring us the consensus engine

mojo,

Decentralized dating apps is a good way to make women feel incredibly unsafe. Not only is the fedi a more techy nerd crowd, it also has massive moderation issues. It’s one bad thing to spam an instance with CP. It’s even worse when you can make a fake profile to stalk someone with zero accountability and potentially put them in physical danger, while also being unbannable. I’m sure a rapist/stalker/murderer would totally be stopped by defederating their instance, right? They’d just spam multiple accounts for their target.

Moderation is extremely important here, and so is attracting a crowd which makes or breaks it, which the fedi is 100% not going to ever do. How would the fedi and developers respond if there was even a single rape/murder as a result of their platform and weak moderation? The whole thing would probably collapse.

Meet up groups are similar but not as targeted. That wouldn’t be a bad idea though, since I guess someone leaving up a poster in town or something is kind of a form of that.

Zak,
@Zak@lemmy.world avatar

Not only is the fedi a more techy nerd crowd

I don’t like the implication that a techy nerd crowd is more dangerous to women than men on average. If that’s what you mean to say, do you have evidence that it’s true?

Something I do think the fediverse really needs is a reputation system. I’m not sure exactly how it would work, but I can think of some properties it should have:

  • Choice at several levels (user, server, community where that’s a feature) about who to trust as sources of reputation information and what privileges require kind of reputation
  • Positive reputation information should take time to build up
  • Negative reputation information should be specific about the behavior that caused it, and possibly preserve some form of evidence
  • People should be able to voluntarily tie multiple accounts together to combine their reputation
PropaGandalf,

These are all valid points which I partially forgot about and I’d love to write a follow up post reagrding this exact issue.

I think that most of your concerns are addressable on a technical level. Others will rely on the instance’s community to guarantee an even safer experience. This will also benefit these instances as they can advertise with this trust level they recieve from the users.

wizardbeard,
@wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

There’s a secondary issue of the ability to delete data. The fediverse is, in a way, anti-privacy. All it takes is for one instance to defederate between when you post something and when you delete it for a copy of it to live on forever.

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

I mean sure it can be solved easy enough: centralize it, and work with the authorities for reportable cases. Fork over the data. Exactly all the stuff most people in the fediverse wouldn’t want, but there are serious upsides to having a central authority for such stuff.

More specifically, anything that requires legal intervention or arbitration might be better off being centralized. This is exactly why crypto isn’t really a valid model for money, our everyday usable of money needs a moderation and arbitration authority that is backed by actual legal enforcement. And dating apps need a way for people to report creepys and stalkers and in extreme cases, have the data be handed over to the police easily.

HamSwagwich,

I think a lot of you are confusing Federation with decentralization. They are not the same thing.

PropaGandalf, (edited )

Federation is a part of decentralization. Instead of one server you have multiple user run ones. It is not distribution though as there is no P2P component.

the_ocs,

I think you’re confusing decentralized and distributed: geeksforgeeks.org/comparison-centralized-decentra…

PropaGandalf,

Exactly: I’d say federation and distribution are both a form of decentralization. Whereas distributed networks rely on P2P communication federated systems still have some centralized components but overall share no single point if failure.

HamSwagwich,

Federated systems all have a single point it failure, the server. If a server instance disappears a significant portion of your data does as well, especially if it wasn’t federated. User accounts are a good example of this in Lemmy.

Just because a system is federated does not mean it’s decentralized, whereas a decentralized system has no risk of loss of data if a single system goes down. Federation is not that.

Spzi,

Big instances could be decentralized services as you describe. So one of their servers could go down without any functionality being lost.

So while federation does not imply decentralization, it also does not exclude it. In theory. In practice it excludes it a bit, since the fractured nature means more instances remain under the threshold above which it makes sense to have a decentralized instance over a monolith.

PropaGandalf, (edited )

That’s simply not true. On the network level any federated system is decentralized. With a centralized network you literally have one server and if it dies all data is lost. With a federated system like the fediverse any server can go down but the data is still there if it has been cached by some other server.

Spzi,

I’ll try in a less hostile manner, if I may.

You’re right that Lemmy is decentralized if we view it from far away. Individual instances may disappear, the network itself still remains.

The other person’s perspective was more zoomed in. If we look at individual instances, they can very much disappear, and users of that instance will have lost functionality. That includes both people with accounts on that instance, and users of communities hosted there.

For big instances, we can imagine they are both. So even if one of their instance servers goes down, no functionality or data is lost, as they continuously internally mirror their data.

However, most instances are monoliths.

PropaGandalf,

Exactly thats what I think too. I was talkkng about the network itself while he was talking about single instances. But thats the difference to a distributed system where you have ni central servers at all. Still on the network level both federated and distributed systems are decentralized.

HamSwagwich,

With a centralized network you literally have one server and if it dies all data is lost.

You just described Lemmy.

The fact that you don’t understand that federation != decentralization is the problem. Just because something is federated does not mean it’s decentralized. Decentralized means all data is stored on all nodes and the loss of any one node does not compromise that data. That’s not Lemmy. If your Lemmy server goes down, significant portions of your data go with it, which proportions vary, but you WILL lose data. That’s not decentralized, but everyone agrees Lemmy is federated, yes? Therefore, federation is not decentralization.

PropaGandalf,

Dude you can literally count the number of independent instances. How can you assume that the network isn’t decentralized? A network where the data is distributed over the user nodes is called a distributed system for a reason. Decentralization does not mean that one part of the network can’t go down but the network itself will survive it.

HamSwagwich,

What part of what I wrote do you not understand? Because it’s painfully clear you are completely mistaken about how Federation works or what it is. I’ve already explained the differences to you, but you don’t seem to be able to grasp them. So where is the failure of communication here? Which parts are you having trouble with?

Decentralization does not mean that one part of the network can’t go down but the network itself will survive it.

What does this sentence even mean. It’s just word salad and looks like you are throwing out buzzwords you’ve heard somewhere but don’t know what they actually mean contextually.

PropaGandalf,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/a64f2874-b07f-438c-a1c5-d12a0db5dc97.png

smileyhead,

What I think is also missing is Disqus alternative too comment on websites with Fediverse accounts. Wordpress has an ActivityPub plugin, but it would be great to have something like this on static sites or other CMS software too.

stsquad,

You can integrate Mastodon comments into your website with a little bit of JavaScript.

maxmalrichtig,
@maxmalrichtig@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Gancio

Also, check out fediverse.party/en/miscellaneous/ for a comprehensive list of services/apps available in the fediverse.

ram, (edited )

I want:

  • Federated anime lists software - BookWyrm could be repurposed for this
  • Torrent trackers - private trackers might be able to work by having each user have a ratio depending on their instance, tracker instances opting in to being viewable by other instances as a whole and/or users individually
  • Booru-style image boards
  • a Neopets clone

For my final wish, I want a Tiktok clone. I don’t really know if this could work while maintaining any level of user privacy, as what makes Tiktok work so well is the sheer amount of personal user data they keep, from watch times to likes to reposts to shares to even knowing what videos you leave the platform on. I think a fediverse-style Tiktok clone would only be accepted if it only relied on likes and reposts for personal algorithms.

Edit: Oh, and good federated wiki software.

PropaGandalf,

Ah yeah a federated wiki with instances for various topics. One focused on tech others on video games, … Like a decentralized Fandom.

ChaoticNeutralCzech, (edited )

YES.

Fandom used to be good before it dropped community HTML/CSS customization… Now each wiki looks the same and not really good. The functionality has also been nerfed.

Look how they massacred my boy! (Luckily, they switched to self-hosting)

PropaGandalf,

Yeah I see your point. What I meant is more the idea of different communities having their own wiki which could be hosted on topic or regional specific instances.

RVGamer06,

I know. I occasionally read the italian Uncyclopedia, and they were also pissed by this. They then switched to being hosted on Miraheze.

Spzi,

Not sure how a (de)federated Wiki would look like.

Partially defederated comment sections of Lemmy posts can be pretty confusing. Users coming from different instances can see entirely different comment / reply structures.

I’m not sure if that would be a problem with a Wiki, but it’s certainly something to think through before starting.

Another point: Why? Who gains what if a Wiki is federated? What problem does that solve?

gabe,

I would love a federated neopets clone, had an idea for a time for a federated gaia online style avatar website

pewgar_seemsimandroid,

peertube could implement the ability for a tiktok clone

heygooberman,
@heygooberman@lemmy.today avatar

I would certainly be up for Ideas 3 and 5.

lemmonaut,

…medium.com/gitlab-gaining-fediverse-capabilities…

That would help one of your ideas, probably

otter,

The only one here I think might not be appropriate (at least in the way that other fediverse platforms are structured) is dating apps. There’s a much greater need for moderation, privacy, and safety when it comes to dating apps.

We do need something different, especially because all the big dating apps are controlled by a single company (and the rest form the rest of the oligopoly), but the Fediverse may not be the right way to do it. Open Source but centralized might be the way to go

Franzia,

You’ve gotta remember, just because the norm is one way - there’s an audience out there for which this would be a safety improvement.

ChaoticNeutralCzech,

As for dating apps, do you think gender disparity would be a problem? Largely queer communities like !196 would rejoice but straight men don’t stand much of a chance.

PropaGandalf,

Also different fetish and kink communities.

PropaGandalf, (edited )

I am convinced that decentralisation and publicity and secure private chats are not mutually exclusive if you use the appropriate protocols: On the one hand you can have ActivityPub, which is suitable for communication and discoverability between instances, and on the other hand you could use a secure messaging protocol such as Matrix, which could then be used for private chats.

I mean in the end you want to be discovered by other people so you need to provide some info about you. The good thing is that you decide what personal information you want to share with everyone and what details you only want to talk about with certain people.

For your information: We already have a centralized, open source dating app. It’s called Alovoa.

some_guy,

Well if you’re convinced I’m sure everyone will jump on board then!

PropaGandalf,

Dude what are you talking about? Have I ever mentioned that I want to convince anyone? Stop hallucinating things.

wiki_me,

For your information: We already have a centralized, open source dating app. It’s called Alovoa.

The dev is also open to activitypub support

Problems with problematic users can be solved by explicit whitelisting, or having credit card verification.

some_guy,

Yes if there’s one thing I want out of a dating app, it’s being able to give my CC info over to any schlub who wants to spin up an instance

wiki_me,

Does not have to be a random instance but a reputable one like mastodon social, and it can be optional, people give cc to random shops online and you could do a charge back or even use paypal and patreon (as long as they respect warrants), reportedly 1 in 6 women gets raped or experience an attempt at rape so making women safer is good.

some_guy,

have fun with that

Max_P,
@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me avatar

Especially the safety aspect. The big platforms have extensive moderation tools to keep the creepers out. And most dating apps are still widely unappealing to women because most men on them are creepy as fuck. That's also why you can't send pictures or even links on Tinder: guys just won't stop sending dick pics as if that's appealing.

I can't imagine if you can basically make a fully anonymous profile on an instance like exploding-heads and hexbear how fucking awful the experience would be, especially for women and minorities. And who do you trust to moderate your personal conversations going toxic, especially if the report propagates to the original also toxic enabling instance?

Or the sheer amount of spam, OnlyFans baits and escort services that would dominate such a platform.

BallShapedMan,
@BallShapedMan@lemmy.world avatar

I want #3 the most.

iso,
@iso@lemy.lol avatar

Yep, I hate LinkedIn for their stupid ads and “premium” features.

BallShapedMan,
@BallShapedMan@lemmy.world avatar

Those are bothersome, plus it’s less about collaborating and networking more and far more a channel for sales people to find you and try to sell you stuff. “Hey, let’s connect and be friends, wanna see my SaaS?”

PropaGandalf,

Haha lol

neutron,

I wonder if such a platform will gain acceptance beyond “nerdy techies” like us. There could be a working platform with apps and all, but if the suits find it “not professional enough”…

BallShapedMan,
@BallShapedMan@lemmy.world avatar

I think I’m alright with that though lol.

i_am_not_a_robot,
@i_am_not_a_robot@feddit.uk avatar
  1. Mobilizon
PropaGandalf,

Wow that’s great to hear! I will check it out.

JubilantJaguar,

Impressive. Framasoft seems to be holding up much of this space all by itself.

HamSwagwich,

You can basically do that with Diaspora

hperrin,

Some of these are available as mailing lists. I know it’s not the same thing, but it’s close.

I’m really excited for federated git hosting though. It would be cool to run my own instance and accept pull requests/issues from anyone on whatever instance.

PropaGandalf, (edited )

Mailing lists tend to become very cluttered and confusing over time.

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