I was going to wait to talk about this until I could actually release it, but it’s becoming unlikely that will happen.
A few months ago I built an #iOS and #tvOS app for watching #Owncast streams natively on your phone and tv. You could browse the directory, or add your own private servers that aren’t listed publicly. It would send you push notifications when your favorite streams went live and it all worked pretty well.
Apple has been unable to understand how the “rights” work in this case. I can’t get them to understand that people opt into the directory, and the Owncast project owns and runs the directory. Instead they see it as me “using content without rights” and “accessing a catalog without proper rights”. They asked me to provide the paperwork detailing the agreement I have with every Owncast server. Clearly that’s impossible. The number of servers that want to be public on the directory change every day, I couldn’t send them new documentation every day. I tried to explain that the directory is kind of like a search engine and the application is like a browser. A browser doesn’t have explicit rights to every webpage ever made, as that would be ridiculous. I also tried to compare it to a podcast client. A podcast client can play back any podcast without asking for permission, and there are tons of podcast directories.
They’ll approve the application if I don’t use the directory and don’t have any Owncast servers directly available from the application, however. But I’m not willing to do that as that kind of defeats the point of the convenience.
I contacted a handful of attorneys, and I was willing to fight this. I hoped if I could get an attorney to draft a document that explains, in legal terms, something that Apple’s legal team would understand it could be cleared up. But I haven’t been able to have a meaningful conversation with any of them, as none of them understand what I’m doing or aren’t interested in working with a non-corporate entity.
So I think this is dead, killed by Apple. I tried to build something cool for you all, as a side project, to make viewing Owncast streams more convenient. It’s just not going to happen and I feel bad about it.
@gabek might @noybeu have contacts that could help I wonder? Not their line of work but some similarities might be synergistic, nonprofit, tech-heavy etc.
@chockenberry@gabek I logged on today because I was using Triode and noticed they got a station directory through review, and was going to suggest reaching out to them. Glad to see you connected. Good luck Gabe!
@gabek I'm sorry that happened to you. It's infuriating that Apple's ecosystem can't have something like F-droid to serve as a second opinion when the overseers of the app store and decide you don't fit the company's business model.
@gabek@alex@ivory
sorry Gabe, I’m sure you’re absolutely sick of the whole thing now. But is it worth some sort of onboarding process like Tumblr: users select tags, then a bunch of accounts are “suggested” to follow?
That said, it’s not as if Apple is making any sense whatsoever here.
@meljoann Maybe! I’m not sure where the line is when they stop seeing it as “stealing people’s content” and instead see it as “consuming people’s content”. Tumblr is only accessing Tumblr content, so I think it is clearer to Apple what is going on. But I don’t have rights to arbitrary video streams that people put online, to them I’m just pulling in people’s stuff without permission and putting it in an application. They don’t think of your content any different than if I were to pull in a stream of Disney. If every Owncast stream was centralized and operated by a corporate entity, like Twitch or YouTube does, I’m sure this wouldn’t be a problem.
@gabek ah I get ya. It’s such a double standard cause nobody posts their own stuff on Tumblr, it’s from the entire internet.
I guess they don’t mind having one of those legalese “btw we can do whatever we want and there’s nothing you can do about it” clauses in their Terms we’ve all read
@gabek if all you’re after is a legalese letter explaining it, have you tried the current fad of the month, GPT4? I am honestly unsure how it would handle the task but it could be a cheap way to get a legal sounding argument as to why your app should be permitted. Unfortunately it wouldn’t come with the letterhead of an actual law firm.
@gabek Could you make it so that the directory is not hard-configured but the user needs to enter the URL to the directory at first launch, but the directory URL is somehow well known?
@Xjs That's the problem. This application was built for people who just want to pick up their phone and tap on the stream they want to watch. They won't understand what a directory is or how to access it. I could build it for power users, but they don't need it. But that would solve the problem if the app was shipped with no available servers, I already got that approved. But that's not worth it.
@gabek@fexplorer IIRC anyone who has both the code and an Apple developer account could install the app to their own phone, so making it open source might give it more value than not sharing it at all
Wow, wow, wow. This REALLY blows. I'm kinda speechless. Even if I don't use Apple, I always thought one of the biggest things missing was clients for different devices. While it's awesome to hear about mobile development and things being in the works, this has to be the most disheartening way possible.
I really hope you can get something figured out, this is a really sad situation that reminds me of just how tough the battle for open networks and online spaces will be.
@foreverastudent That’s a good way to put it. In a corporate world we’re the weirdos doing things that people won’t understand. Open is a concept that just doesn’t make any sense to them.
@gabek it might be worth it to form a separate legal entity (llc, or non-profit) if that's not too difficult. what I'd do to address apple's complaint is put a t&c in front of the directory that says "by listing your stream you give us the rights to display your stream and associated metadata" and then point to that
@shadowfacts Yeah, I’ve kind of been through it all. Product changes don’t matter, they just can’t understand. They treat an Owncast server the same as it was CBS or ESPN. They think I’m stealing proprietary video content. Additionally you’d think “I own the directory” would be pretty easy to understand, but they are treating that like I’m sucking in all of Netflix’s catalog. This is the corporate lens they see things through and they’re unable to budge. I get it, though. That’s what Apple is now. They live and die with corporate partnerships and intellectual property agreements. That’s all they know. They don’t understand this open hippie shit.
The legal entity is more difficult than it sounds. I’ve been unable to, so far, figure out how to do so with an open source project and how ownership works with assets and such. If I were to fuck it up there’s no going back. I’ve seen entire open source projects crumble because they tried creating a legal entity and didn’t do it correctly.
@gabek oof, that's unfortunate. it might work better if the disclaimer was on the directory itself and listing your stream had to actually go through the directory UI? I know that's not how it works currently, but that might be where the confusion is coming from
@gabek@shadowfacts I was just browsing through OwnCast’s site, and see that you can stream using VLC for tvOS. They must have someone at Apple who understands this.
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