This is where the argument for unconditionally providing equal air time to bad faith arguments falls apart, and where paradox of tolerance comes into play. One side demands tolerance for itself but argues in bad faith, and the other is inclined toward tolerance with others because it's what they would want for themselves. The latter is taken advantage of because the former does not return the favor.
The key to solving for the paradox is recognizing that there is a difference of scale:
If one ideology demands tolerance for itself but is intolerant of all ideologies aside from its own, its intolerance is broadly scoped. There is more intolerance in play than tolerance.
If one ideology grants tolerance to other ideologies except when their own is denied the same, then the intolerance is narrowly scoped. Intolerance is still in play, but it is a false inference to imply that those who champion equality must unconditionally surrender it to those who do not believe in it.
Pay attention to how many ideologies a school of thought is trying to silence and who their allies are. Unreasonable extremists can be found in all camps and their existence alone does not prove a movement's bad faith or your own righteousness. Reasonable people should exist, making it more important to focus on the goals of the movement and how its better stewards comport themselves. Remember that people who open their discussions with rudeness and toxicity are compensating for the insecurity of their debating point and already betraying their own intolerance. They aren't worth engaging with.
Who are the patient and reasonable people that are standing up for an ideology?
Does a leader for a movement rely on emotional appeals to unrelenting anger? Are they always angry and rude in a public setting, and primarily trying to appeal to those who behave in a similar way? Ignore their spiel and use someone else as your benchmark. (edit: But if this is the best they can offer and the leaders who are most frequently pushed to the top, this should be seen as a large red flag.)
What happens when you try to engage in a conversation with the patient ones? Do they keep a level head and respectfully agree to disagree with you while happily trading points, or do they go on the attack with ad-hominems when you patiently poke at the holes in their arguments?
At the end of the day there aren't any simple solutions and you're left with a critical thinking exercise that only works for you. Be one of the patient people who is a good advocate for your cause, but do not allow yourself to invest a disproportionate amount of effort engaging with someone who does not return respect. Seek out those who return that respect, regardless of their stated ideology, and you will both be better for it when the conversation is done. And hopefully the result of those conversations will help other people make up their mind about who is truly acting in bad faith.
Yeah this is a memes community, but it's something that I've been thinking about for a while. Feel free to quote/link/whatever.
More seriously, if anyone likes this sort of material it's worth giving a translation of Meditations by Marcus Aurelius a read. It's a very dry but thought-provoking series of observations recorded by a Roman emperor and stoic philosopher. Rather than trying to read it as a traditional book, I recommend stashing a copy of it in your bathroom (or keeping a copy in your phone's e-reader app) so that you can slowly thumb through it over time without falling asleep. :) You'll get to the end eventually, and if I had to credit this thinking exercise somewhere I'm inclined to steer people in his direction. It's great material for reflecting on the pursuit of justice and self-betterment.
I see no major reason to advocate for one translation over another, but if you're the sort of person who had trouble narrowing down which instance of lemmy to sign up with initially, you can crib off of me and go with The Essential Marcus Aurelius.
I’ve wanted to read Meditations since forever. I’ll try your method, thanks for the suggestion! I hope poor Marcus Aurelius will forgive me for reading his diary in the bathroom.
He totally would. It is basically an entire book of his own bathroom thoughts, so even when you aren't in the bathroom you are bathrooming vicariously.
This really the best use of ChatGPT - I use it to write long annoying rebuttals to BS in about 2 seconds. It either a) shuts them up b) invites more low-effort responses which just answer again with ChatGPT or c) they start talking about the AI in which case I move on to saying they have nothing if all they have is ad hominen attacks.
And what's super fun is when you take the time to disassemble their bullshit and they hit you with, "Wow, imagine caring this much." "Yeahhhh, I'm not reading all that." 🙄
Basically, "I just want to spue shit uninterrupted, not engage in actual debate."
And if you choose not to engage, you "didn't care enough to even argue your point" so it "must not have been that important to you anyway" 🥴 damned if you do damned if you don't
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