My dad just died a few minutes ago, and the paramedics left a mess hidden under his bed.

blanketswithsmallpox, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

My condolences on your pop.

Regarding leaving behind biohazard... You'd be surprised that the vast majority of first responders aren't trained for it and are liable if they try. Yes, it's kinda crazy and varies heavily by state.

First responders of any kind aren't trained for the cordiality or technical aspects of cleaning up biohazard scenes. It's very common. They're trained for patient care and that's it. They leave messes behind. They won't wash blood off your sidewalk. It's like walking into a personal nightmare for most people. Trained EMTs and paramedics are supposed to keep their PPE bagged and taken out with them, but if things get hectic, which is why they're there in the first place, stuff gets overlooked. Someone below already mentioned that it would've gotten shoved away to make room and it just gets forgot since it's not visible anymore

The fact of the matter is that they're there to triage and get them to the hospital, not tidy up after attempting to save someone's life.

The situation is macabre but it's a common one. A lot of people have felt that same weird surprise going back to where there loved one was to just find it a mess. There's no laws about them needing to clean. It's not the first time it's been brought up though.

If you're in the right state of mind you can call the nonemergency county line and ask if they have cleanup services for first responder scenes... the vast majority don't though. Those that do usually take a day or more to get there.

9/10 times it's family doing all of it.

I work pretty closely with just about every type of first responder in my line of work just to qualify this a bit... I've had to deal with this same issue in my personal life and professional. It's the same just about everywhere from what I know.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2013/05/02/cleaning-up-crime-and-accident-scenes-a-grim-task/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499999/

https://www.ems1.com/legal/articles/detroit-mandates-first-responders-clean-bloody-scenes-CQ4raY15GiJjbQW9/

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1123029

EDIT: I did forget to say that those cleanup services are usually going to cost YOU out of pocket. Some states or counties subsidize them though...

Also minor grammar/clarifications.

Sjy, 10 months ago

OP, sorry. Resuscitation can be chaotic and there is a chance that the bag got pushed off to the side and then they missed it cleaning up.

That does not make it okay because it looks like their BVM is in the bag, which means that was placed their after the resuscitation. Your picture doesn’t show anything aside from the little bit of blood that isn’t just garbage, so don’t worry about how to get rid of it, just throw it in the trash. But again, sorry, I’ve never personally and I haven’t worked with anyone who would intentionally leave garbage on a scene after an attempted resuscitation, it’s a small detail that someone’s family shouldn’t have to think about in this kind of situation.

popemichael, 10 months ago

That’s good to know, thank you.

I had nightmares about this bag last night so I’ll be glad when it’s out of my life.

Sjy, 10 months ago

Happy to help. Seriously tho, just toss it all. Even that little bit of blood isn’t significant. But don’t let this bag bother you too much it’s nothing to do with your dad it’s just the packaging for the meds they used plus probably some saline. You said in another comment that they were waiting for the medical examiner, which if that’s true then it would be illegal for them to remove anything that they had in place for the attempted resuscitation.

popemichael, 10 months ago

That’s a really good point. Yeah, they are doing a full investigation because they have to in Washington state if a person passes away at home.

I’m not really a fan of talking to the police, but they didn’t really even talk to me. It’s such an obvious thing that he died in his sleep, I suppose.

Sjy, 10 months ago

I also don’t like talking to the police, even more so when I’m off duty, but I work in Florida and I’ve worked in a few counties, some after I attempted resuscitation I’d call the medical examiner’s office and tell them what’s going on and then they’d say if they wanted to come investigate or not, but currently where I work operates the same as you’re describing medical examiner comes out and investigates any death that didn’t happen under direct care of a physician.

Anyway, I’m sure you’ve got a lot going on so please toss that bag of garbage, it isn’t worth your time and effort to think about and I wish you the best in this tough time.

Kwaker76, 10 months ago

deleted_by_moderator

Tangent5280, 10 months ago

Lmao I just checked and you’re right. Feels surreal, like that video of that girl whose mum comes in while she’s singing apple bottom jeans, yells at her for sleeping with a teacher, and leaves, just for the girl to continue singing through her tears.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/17251873-592c-47b7-9fcf-367ff887523b.jpeg

yeather, 10 months ago

Difference is that video was staged.

MaxVerstappen, 10 months ago

Shame on you.

Blamemeta, 10 months ago

I think dude is having a mental break down or something.

popemichael, 10 months ago

Yeah, I’m having a bad day after and I needed to take my mind off of things for a while.

We all grieve in our own ways.

uhauljoe, 10 months ago

They meant the asshole commenter was having a mental breakdown. I’m sorry they said that, it’s ridiculous.

You’re allowed to grieve or distract yourself in any way you want. (I would discourage anything self destructive obviously)

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with going online. I’m incredibly sorry for your loss, and I am sending many good thoughts your way. ♡

popemichael, 10 months ago

I spent nearly the last 5 years of my life dedicated to taking care of my elderly father and my grandmother.

I don’t have anyone else to vent to, and my father was the last of my family.

So excuse me when I used a public forum to try to take my mind off of my world collapsing.

WhoRoger, 10 months ago

I have no stake in this thing, but I can say condolences and you’re doing good. I can imagine needing to get your mind off things. When I was dealing with a death, I didn’t want to be left alone in the same flat for 5 minutes.

I’ve dealt with paramedics a bunch of times and they always leave a mess behind. I can understand that since they have more urgent things to do (I only wonder about the biohazard rating of such trash), but combined with this situation, it can certainly leave a shitty feeling.

popemichael, 10 months ago

Thank you for your kind words.

Yeah, it’s like the last thing I needed in my life at that moment was to grab some bloody life-saving instruments.

To be safe, early today I made sure to call the local non-emergency line and let them know what they left behind.

Not to be a karen, but to double-check Washington state laws on trashing that sort of stuff.

WhoRoger, 10 months ago

Geesus fuck people… What else you want to mandate? How long after family death are you allowed to go online? A day? A week? How long until you’re allowed to watch a movie? I’d bet you’re one of those people who accuses everyone of being nazis. Next time use your hands to wank rather than be a wanker.

Mowcherie, 10 months ago

Username is now kwanker

dustojnikhummer, 10 months ago

Judging by 74 up 48 down many agreed with him

WhoRoger, 10 months ago

Lots of judgemental wankers around here.

Discoslugs, 10 months ago

Call servpro. They can clean up bio hazard no problem. I did i myself a few years ago.

blanketswithsmallpox, 10 months ago

Just be prepared to go broke a fucking 2nd time. ServPro charges fucking waaaaay too much.

PDF warnings: http://truenorthcompanies.com/webres/File/Resources/COVID19/ServPro_Covid19_Form_033120.pdf

https://www.milton.k12.pa.us/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/SERVPRO-Time-and-Materials-Pricing.pdf

popemichael, 10 months ago

Thank you very much for the information

The thing that got me so confused over it was that it was stuffed under the bed. When my grandmother passed in Feb, they took all their trash with them.

I’m not going to put significant moral blame on the paramedics, but I wish they would have left the trash out for me at least to see.

Having to reach under the bed to see what was under there and getting my had covered in blood and other fluids seriously about made me vomit in shock alone.

I appreciate that they tried to save my father’s life which is why I’m only mildly upset. I’m not wanting to “karen” them as I’m sure it was a mistake, and a weird one at that.

ChunkMcHorkle, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

Caring for a family member is an incredibly hard, immersive, 24/7 experience (as you know) but then when they die suddenly and with no warning, emotionally it’s like going from the fires of hell into a barren snowy tundra with ZERO transition: one second it’s everything all the time, and then nothing at all.

If your entire world feels surreal right now, that’s absolutely normal. And I totally understand how going through all that just to have your hand plunged into bodily fluids that are also death related would just be waaaaaay too fucking much for your brain to handle.

And it is, but only for now. You will adapt, and faster than you think.

But there’s a way you can help the process. In the meantime, whenever that thought comes up (and it will, as you know) I’d like you to try a two part experiment.

The first part is to visually push it farther and farther away from you. Don’t try to stop it or push it out altogether; that gives it more power. But what you CAN do is change it and make it more emotionally neutral. Right now you’re remembering as though it is happening now, today, which is part of the pain, but you can change that part of it too. So when the visual comes up, as soon as you remember that it is a memory, visualize it farther away from yourself, as though you are watching yourself discover the bag from across the room. Don’t try to stop it, just change the point from where you are looking at it in your mind’s eye. You can also try framing it externally, as though you were watching it on a television screen, or from outside a window looking in. But whatever way works for you, place the visual away from yourself.

The second part is to match it at the same time with a thought that brings you some relief, like reminding yourself that he’s not tormented anymore, or knowing that you honorably completed your filial duty, or knowing that your care allowed him to pass at home in his own bed instead of in an institution, or recognizing that it was your privilege to be the first one to care for his body when he passed and to have the honor of cleaning his last mess, for all the times you were a kid and he lovingly cleaned yours (if he did).

Obviously I’m just guessing here, but you get the idea. I’m throwing these ideas out because they are what would occur to me (I’m proud of you for all of them!) but they might not work for you. Either way, you get the gist. So you pick something that has meaning to YOU, something that elevates this memory from the place where the paramedics left it under the bed and allows your brain to incorporate it into the loving relationship you had with him. Pick such a thought now, so it’s ready for you when you need it.

So the next time you remember this ugly scene, visually place it across the room, watching yourself discover the bag from a distance, and use that moment to also remember who you are to him, what you were to each other, and how that experience of finding the bag, though unpleasant, was also a deeply loving act on your part, a task that you discharged honorably and with dignity even though you didn’t ask for it, and how it means that now you can both rest easy.

Do this every time you remember, for as long as the memory is upsetting. The power of it should fade rapidly, along with the deep unpleasantness of it.

Give it a shot, it should help. If you ever need to chat hit my DMs; I’ve been there. In the meantime I’m wishing you peace.

EDITED for clarity

popemichael, 10 months ago

Thank you very much. This is something that I really needed to hear.

I feel like I’m walking through a fog, having to do the same things I did dealing with death stuff that I had to do for my grandmother not but 3 months ago.

I will for sure do that sort of meditation and I will see if it works. I’m sure it will as it seems like a good way to hack a memory…

Thank you so much for taking the time that you did to write that out for me.

ChunkMcHorkle, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

You’re quite welcome. Expect it to feel surreal and foggy for a while, though it should begin to get a bit better in a week or so as your brain slowly adapts to the New Normal. Those intrusive memories of the bag are just your brain looking for resolution to what was a compound trauma; by rearranging the memory AND linking it with a resolving cognition, you don’t change or undo it, you just give your brain something with which to say oh, okay, guess I can file that now. “Hack” is exactly the right word.

You woke up to find your life just as completely cratered as if it had been hit by a meteor, so don’t expect a quick return to normalcy. It’s going to feel very surreal and “not right” for a while, though that too will lessen each day. You already know from your grandmother, but it will come in waves. All you can do is ride them out with as much self-care and self-kindness as you can muster.

Just take it day by day, speak kindly to yourself, don’t make big decisions, and let the days and hours fill themselves with normal living. It WILL be normal, soon enough. And you WILL be fine, in time.

But right now your brain is still staring blankly at that crater going WTF??? so be understanding of your own needs.

Thank you for letting me know it helped. Someday you’ll be telling someone else how to walk this path yourself. I wish you all the best.

EDITED for clarity

Remy685, 10 months ago

It’s likely that it was kicked under the bed by accident. Cardiac arrests are one of the most stressful calls a paramedic can run. The fact that it was bagged up at all means that were trying to keep the scene neat as they worked.

But once they terminated resuscitation efforts the call switches to documentation, paperwork, medical examiner notifications, dealing with an upset family who may have trouble processing or accepting the death. They probably just lost track of it at that point.

If you don’t feel comfortable touching it, there are cleanup services that will remove it. My agency doesn’t have a special way of disposing it, it just goes in the regular trash (except for sharps or course, but I don’t see any in your picture, and I hope they wouldn’t leave those around).

retrieval4558, 10 months ago

I’m a paramedic and echo these sentiments (especially about the sharps).

Sorry for your loss OP

popemichael, 10 months ago

That’s excellent to know. I was about to ask about the best way to dispose of it. I can handle it now that the shock of it all has gotten milder

So long as I don’t need to call a biohazard team, and I can just clean the blood up, then I’ll be able to do it.

Do you have a good way to get a blood stain out of a rug

Oxyclean or peroxide like they say in the documentaries?

xxcarpaii, 10 months ago

Dab and press, don’t rub. Dawn in cold water first dabbed on and soaked up with a towel, then hydrogen peroxide the same way for what’s left had always worked for me.

popemichael, 10 months ago

Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

cityslicker343, 10 months ago

Unacceptable

meiti, 10 months ago

I’m sorry for your loss. My dad passed away ten years ago from Alzheimer’s and I was not there for him (and he could not recognize me). You’ve done a fantastic job.

popemichael, 10 months ago

My father had severed paranoid schizophrenia, so he was prone to breaking and losing all of my electrical devices. He kept thinking that the government was after him.

He escaped from my care last month and went missing, thinking that he was being chased. It was a state-wide search with a “silver alert” (it’s like an amber alert for the old or disabled)

We found him in a coma about a week later about 100 miles from his house. He woke up rather quickly when they got him on his meds again, thankfully. So I moved him into my place 24/7

They released him into my care about two weeks ago, but I don’t think his body could handle so much stress for so many years. They think him being afraid all the time just wore his heart down until his stopped today.

MrWafflesNBacon, 10 months ago

That’s really unprofessional and I think that can also be dangerous (for pets and children if they get their hands on it). Also sorry for your dad.

stanleytweedle, 10 months ago

I’m sorry for your loss and very sorry you had to go through that. The fact that you can still give the paramedics credit for doing their best is admirable and shows a rational mind is in control of your emotions- but it’s okay to be pissed at them for being so inconsiderate and not respecting your grief. they could and should have done better.

popemichael, 10 months ago

No, I agree. They did their best. I’m grateful for them. My main issue was that it was stuffed under the bed. I reached under it to see what it was and got covered in blood and fluids.

PorradaVFR, 10 months ago

First off I’m terribly sorry for your loss. While I am by no means a paramedic I took first aid classes from one and this very subject came up (what to do with used PPE and such after an incident). We were told to just leave it pending hazmat-trained folks responding for cleanup. At a patient’s home it’s left and frankly not their responsibility - the patient alone is.

Sucks but they will indeed leave stuff behind - I wish it had been a better outcome for your family but I assure you they meant no offense or harm.

popemichael, 10 months ago

I understand and I know that they were focused elsewhere, but the trash bag was stuffed far under the bed with everything spilling out…

I reached for what I was and was, as I couldn’t see, and my hand got covered in blood and other fluids.

They were here waiting on the medical examiner for over an hour, so they must have forgotten about it somehow.

PorradaVFR, 10 months ago

Ugh that sucks. I can only guess that it was an oversight but you’re absolutely right to be bothered. As you suggest, likely a moment of “get this bag out of the way”. Still upsetting for sure.

While it was thankfully brief I also was part of end of life care for my Dad and despite the anguish I took great comfort from knowing his last hours were with loved ones nearby and in his own bed. I wish that the knowledge you were there and helped brings you solace in your grief. You were there when it mattered most. hug I wish you and your family peace.

popemichael, 10 months ago

Thank you very much. I really appreciate your kind words.

In this world, I only had my dad and grandmother. I took care of them both for years. My grandmother passed in February, and dad’s mind just imploded. She was more “smother” over a mother, so he was in the process to learn how to adult despite having severe paranoid schizophrenia

He was doing so well too, I taught him how to buy clothing and how to use uber.

He was for sure happy when he passed as I kept him reassured that he was safe and “the government doesn’t know where you are”

PorradaVFR, 10 months ago

Be proud of yourself, you’re a good kid to have his back like you did.

TheRealKuni, 10 months ago

Woof. I’m sorry about your loss, I’m sorry you have to deal with their forgotten stuff, I’m sorry for everything you’re going to go through and have been going through.

popemichael, 10 months ago

Thank you, yeah it hard. It was so sudden. Like we just went out to eat yesterday and we got his favorite meal, steak and potato.

superflippy, 10 months ago

I’m sorry about your dad.

popemichael, 10 months ago

Thank you, I really appreciate it.