re: voting, it's undeniably a complex issue affected by factors like disillusionment, gerrymandering, and life circumstances, but if you choose not to vote and you don't care because it doesn't affect you personally, that's privilege. And you can't wrap it up and serve it labeled as 'activism' or 'opinion' to those whose lives have been affected because the lesser evil candidate wasn't good enough for you to bother. Trivial differences aren't so trivial to those whose human rights are at stake.
@fringemagnet I’ve got a few mates who’ve had their brains eaten by David Icke many years ago and never voted. “They all the same, it’s not worth it” and all the usual lines. Drives me up the wall and we just have to not talk about it these days.
@fringemagnet VERY frustrating, and they’re not even open to the idea that they might be able to learn something new which changes their opinion. This, from the people whose biggest insult is to call other people closed-minded. You can’t make it up.
@philsherry I hear you, I've reached a point of picking my battles when it comes to discussing these things. Some people are so stuck in certain opinions that you can try with your best intentions and points and you will still not get through to them. And it ends up exhausting you mentally and nothing else.
If someone is open to having a genuine discussion and actually will sit and listen and consider a different viewpoint, then it's worth having that sort of conversation with them.
@fringemagnet Concur 100%. Far too many people lead every opening argument like they’re Saruman’s army rocking up for the battle of Helm’s Deep. Be more Hobbit!
@fringemagnet
Democrats are war monger capitalists. Republicans are nazis. At least in the states, the two party system ensures there is rarely anyone who represents us to vote for.
Vote shaming is a shit strategy to turn out voters.
@mishi@fringemagnet Spot on. If all there is to eat on the menu is Shit Soup or a Shit Sandwich, refusing to eat shit becomes a valid choice.
Being shamed by other customers for refusing to eat shit...? GTFO.
Voting itself isn't a magical cure for the worlds' evils. You need Something and Someone to vote FOR and few so-called Democracies these days offer healthy, non-shit options.
Nonsense. If you don't like what's on offer, do something about it. Start a grass-roots campaign to get people YOU like involved, or get directly involved yourself. Vote for people in local elections that you like, and help boost their progress as times goes on. Push Independents – it worked well here in Australia. Independents force the major Parties to negotiate – the more Independents, the more negotiation has to happen.
Yeah, simply set up a political movement to rival the biggest vote-winning parties, in a system designed to destroy any real threat to established capitalistic powers.
You'd almost think if it were that easy it'd have been attempted by now...and no offence mate but what works in Australia isn't guaranteed to work anywhere else.
And speaking personally, I ain't built for politics. Passing it off as something anyone can do is simplistic in the extreme.
So, what? You're gonna sit and complain? Or help someone who IS capable of playing in the sandpit? Just getting involved – by handing out pamphlets or driving folks to voting booths – can help a struggling candidate for, say, a Mayoral election get a start.
Then that person might get to be Governor one day. Then, who knows?
It's about getting started at ground level, or helping someone who is willing to do the hard yards.
@Grandalf@Uraael@fringemagnet@mishi I'd be wary of independents in the US where they don't have preferential voting...sadly if they don't get a majority it is a wasted vote, unlike here in Australia where it can be meaningful and a protest vote all in one...
Make sure you get the best Dems on the docket during your primaries...!
@BlahBlah@Grandalf@fringemagnet@mishi There are very few genuinely independent candidates in the UK and at best they only ever achieve unseating a particularly unpopular single incumbent. Most Independents here are white Tories, standing too embarrassed to wear the party colours for whatever reason.
"Few" "Most" – so, not all. We have the same issue here, but we work to unmask the rats in the food bin and promote people who really are Independent in their thinking. It can work, if you want it to.
Idealism and wishful thinking only get you so far in this scenario. If someone like Jeremy Corbyn, one time leader of the second largest party here, can be publicly destroyed not jist out of his job but out of the party as well then small indie candidates have less chance than a fart in a hurricane.
If there's a solution, playing the game in a rigged and hostile system with scant resource is not it.
@BlahBlah@Grandalf@Uraael@fringemagnet@mishi yeah without preferential voting unfortunately the best strategy is to focus on getting the least worst candidate through primaries/ preselection, then working for the least worst party at the election.
I'm not sure how choosing not to participate in a rigged and corrupted system equates to us "sitting on the sidelines whinging".
How about you tell us what this blind Can Do optimism has wrought for you personally? Is your grass roots activism and superior attitude on the cusp of reversing the slide to Global fascism? Has it secured us a media free from RW influence?
How about instead of belittling the victims of corrupt govts andncorporate power structures in late stage capitalism you lift us up with your own shining example?
Australia has, despite Murdoch and his rich mates running our media, ousted all but one conservative government (and they're on thin ice). Yes, our voting system enables that, but so can yours if you push for it.
We don't run with "Can Do optimism". That was in the past, when we still believed that politicians were in it for the good of the country. Now we get out on the streets, either in protest or door knocking for candidates during elections, from town councils up to Federal politicians.
It has worked. Hell, one UK town area got Murdoch's media banned, and all of New Zealand did the same. Activism, on the street activism, works.
Point to where I've been whingeing and I'll concede the point. Otherwise, I'll take an apology whenever you're ready. Kindly don't presume you know the first thing about me; I've given you that courtesy and would see it respected.
You're highly judgemental, which I find very ill-mannered. A little more empathy towards your feloow human and a lot less arrogance would go a long way.
@Uraael@fringemagnet
100% agree.
It’s like what do you vote for? Gonorrhea or syphilis? Syphilis is worse but nobody wants gonorrhea either.
And I disagree with Gandolf. Gandolf is blaming us for things in society that we cannot control. I I call people who shame voters, and say it’s because we’re not trying hard enough, “shit libs”.
I have fought hard for abolitionist & green candidates. I have knocked on doors. I have done all of that. Canvassing is really difficult. And then what happens? The police unions attack our candidates and spend half $1 million to defeat our city council candidates with hate campaigns. The better the candidate, the worse the attack ads. Or we get someone awesome like Chesa Boudin in San Francisco. He was a fantastic district attorney. Everything he did was working. So the far right monied interests in the city put out a media blitz of lies then recalled Chesa.
Sowhatever Gandolf says, even when we when we fucking lose. Until dark money is out of the game, and the evening news is required by law to tell the truth, our best bet is revolution.
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