frankel,
@frankel@mastodon.top avatar
davinkevin,

@frankel just because people missed the "declarative idea" of k8s manifests.

is simple if you just do yaml with it, no anchors, no templates... Just declarations!

And I see the inappropriate will to "DRY", but you must accept some duplications is the way, it's better than dirty and complicated string manipulations

PS: FTW

frankel,
@frankel@mastodon.top avatar

@davinkevin But as a provider, how do we provide a sane Helm chart?

AFAIK, Kustomize isn't suitable for providers.

davinkevin,

@frankel It's not perfect, but suitable if provider = software editors in your question

I have customers asking for kustomize instead of helm to simplify their workflow. The expectation with kustomize has to be different, though

The number of Ops using post-rendering with helm charts is important, so they use two tools… because helm is not extensible without modification to the chart source.

And we see more and more tools with helm & raw manifests (aka kustomize) available now😇

frankel,
@frankel@mastodon.top avatar

@davinkevin "so they use two tools… because helm is not extensible without modification to the chart source"

Indeed. As a vendor, I want to provide my software in a neat package. As an Op, I want to customize the package when installing.

davinkevin,

@frankel The definition of "I want to provide my software in a neat package" usually doesn't match expectations from Ops team…

Mainly because those in charge of this package creation are not Ops and think only "it should be simple"…

But Operation is not simple, our software is not simple… so the package can't be… so helm and its dirty templates everywhere😓 …

frankel,
@frankel@mastodon.top avatar

@davinkevin I disagree on your hypothesis. We should as vendor provide the component in form that is a) easy to use b) configurable.

For example, for APISIX, I don’t want to bother ops with etcd configuration but have good default out-of-the-box.

McPringle,

@frankel Wrong question! I want to know, why the fuck we are using ?

frankel,
@frankel@mastodon.top avatar

@McPringle Well, you shouldn't ask me since I've pretty strong opinions on this subject 😉

https://blog.frankel.ch/defense-xml/

nanobot248,

@frankel @McPringle XML with its 20-50% redundant chars (aka </endtag>) and an <emptytag/> not being an <emptytag></emptytag>, as well as all those problems with entities, is terrible. the data model of XML is pretty cool and better than JSON (YAML with !!tags is actually pretty equal in expressivness), but the syntax is horrible.

frankel,
@frankel@mastodon.top avatar

@nanobot248 @McPringle I care a lot less about the syntax, which boils down to personal preferences, than characteristics: composability, available tooling, etc.

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