Will Microsoft drop the TPM requirement for Win 11 once Win 12 rolls around?
Or maybe they will launch Win 12 with optional TPM support.
Imho making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business, many people are still on Win 10 with no intention to switch, since their motheboard does not support TPM and do not want to upgrade PC / waste PCI-E slot on TPM extension.
I’ve been running 11 on my 10 y/o PC without TPM 2 for a while and it’s been working with zero issues. It’s all just a money grabbing scheme to get people to upgrade their hardware.
Why? What benefit would Microsoft have in changing the requirements for Windows 11 when Windows 12 will more than likely be the OS they focus most of their resources on?
making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business, many people are still on Win 10 with no intention to switch
The switch from Win 10 to Win 11 costs nothing, so Microsoft doesn’t care at all whether you keep using 10 until your PC dies.
The next one you buy will come with 11 preinstalled.
Microsoft doesn’t care if you install Linux either.
You’ve already paid for the Windows license when you bought the PC.
Unfortunately it’s the only way to use Gamepass on Linux, so even if it’s not the browser of choice, some people do have it installed on their machines.
Telemetry data doesn’t make the CEO rich.
Microsoft makes their money from cloud services for businesses, the desktop OS is a loss leader that’s designed to get people to use the cloud services.
I don’t know if it’s still this way, but a decade and more ago (when I last had any professional contact with Microsoft’s development) the company was effectively divided into two competing factions- the Office people and the Windows people. They had wildly different priorities for the shared tech stack, and mutually exclusive demands on the others’ products, and there was a constant bun fight on who got their way. The surprising thing is, even by that era, the Office faction were the dominant one; that’s where the real money was.
Then I gather the Azure faction was born and has completely dominated both, becoming a massive majority of the company’s profitable business.
The gaming people (Xbox and whatnot) were always poor relations, if you’re wondering, and MS R&D was its own eccentric little world which seemed to exist entirely outside of the universe inhabited by any of the others.
No, the source is my ass, but I work in IT sales and am specialized on MS licensing, and IMO there’s just no way Microsoft can finance the constant development and cloud infrastructure needed for Windows updates on a one-time-payment of a few bucks for an OEM license.
Meanwhile, businesses are happy to pay several hundred dollars per user and year for M365 licenses if they’re in the ecosystem. And for the licensing costs of large enterprises, Microsoft basically just sends in an analyst who looks at the environment and quotes a number with a lot of zeros. Which you either pay or go out of business.
It’s not that Windows isn’t profitable, it’s that Office is insanely profitable. There’s a running joke inside MS that Office pays the bills, everything else is icing on the cake.
It’s not that Windows isn’t profitable, it’s that Office is insanely profitable. There’s a running joke inside MS that Office pays the bills, everything else is icing on the cake.
It’s not that Windows isn’t profitable, it’s that Office is insanely profitable. There’s a running joke inside MS that Office pays the bills, everything else is icing on the cake.
Here’s why it’s against Microsoft interest to drop TPM requirement. They will paywall updates for Windows 10. So, pay for software updates or pay for hardware updates.
Not really, the only saltines comes from OPs tears all over this post.
It’s just so fun seeing how OP is faced with either having an unsecure system or having to pay to replace his otherwise perfectly capable machine, but still has so much loyalty to Microsoft (or he’s in extreme denial) that he’s throwing shit at everybody,even those who just explain Microsoft won’t drop the requirement.
But it’s ok, my non TPM machines will continue to work for years, always up to date. And when 12 rises the requirements yet again I’ll laugh at all the people crying that a trillion dollars company isn’t hearing them.
As someone mentioned in the comments, non TPM machines can have W11 on them and it will most likely work just fine so that’s pretty much a non issue…
In 2025 TPM 2.0 will be 11 years old, add the optional 3 years of updates and that’s 14 years old, I don’t think there will be that much personal hardware without TPM 2.0 that is still being actively used at either of those points and if the people who do still use it absolutely want to stick to Windows then they’ll still have the option I mentioned before…
Both AMD and Intel bake a hardware TPM into their CPUs IIRC. I think Windows 11 complains more about Secure Boot not being enabled on my PC than the TPM.
This is nothing new. Windows 10 will be 10 years old at that point. They’ve done paid extended service for several previous windows versions. I don’t like Windows or Microsoft. I run Linux or MacOS where I can but I can’t fault them for supporting an OS for 10 years.
I quite enjoy MacOS but they are way more likely to break backwards compatibility than Microsoft. I would argue that one of Microsoft’s biggest problems with Windows is that they don’t break compatibility often enough. The engineering effort they put into maintaining support for archaic software is pretty immense.
Apple updates constantly break whether or not an application can be updated and remain compatible. It’s literally the biggest headache we have when dealing with Apple in an enterprise environment. This version of Adobe CC only works on MacOS Big Sur but the other department is still on High Sierra and this remote site is fully on Monterey. None of their projects are cross compatible because they’re all on different versions of Adobe which aren’t compatible with their OS versions.
User interface? Sure. Though W11 can look exactly like 10 if you want. I don’t really care about changes in aesthetic though.
Sounds like an Adobe/corporate IT management issue. My only experience is with MacOs on personal devices. All companies I’ve worked with have used windows and updates were avoided until absolutely necessary.
Lol “I have no knowledge of this but it’s definitely a management problem.”
Thanks, but it’s not. Adobe can’t be updated past a certain point unless you update the OS. Can’t do that cause the machine is too old? Better buy a new one. The point of being “too old” is much much younger than Windows PC hardware.
Windows is easy, just update it. Still on Windows 10? No problem. Still supported. The updates are also free lol for whatever that matters.
I’m not familiar with MacOS, but what’s preventing Adobe from updating? Is it updating from the App store and apple just stops delivering the updates after EOL or is it that Adobe doesn’t bother pushing updates for OS versions past their EOL?
In any case, it sucks that apple decides that a otherwise perfectly capable computer is no longer supported just due to age (like with phones I guess…)
The second one, you’ll only be able to update Adobe on your old MacOS up to a certain version and then if you want anything further you have to update the OS to achieve the new range of supported versions. Unfortunately in a corporate environment you have a lot of moving parts and you can’t just always update everything even if it’s new enough to support it. Since projects and their constituent dependencies won’t always be compatible.
This seems more an Adobe issue than an Apple issue IMO. I don’t know how quickly the HW becomes “obsolete” in the eyes of Apple (for example, what’s the minimum time from buying a Mac to it not being supported?). If this is short, yeah Adobe should extend further. If it’s 5+ years, I kind of understand.
I’m not defending apple, I have no love for them, just to be clear.
Imho making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business
It is good for their business.
There are very few people who turn away from M$ because they disagree with the TPM requirement.
There are some more people who whine and complain about the TPM requirement. Note the subtle difference :-) Experience has shown that most of these people have no real problem. They find a way, for example buy new hardware. It was a success for M$ if you buy new hardware.
In the long run, M$ wants to make more use of your TPM. Therefore I do not think that they see any reason to drop it.
“TPM has been around for over 20 years, and has been part of PCs since around 2005. In 2016 TPM version 2.0 - the current version as of this writing - became standard in new PCs.
The odds are that your PC does already have TPM, and if it’s less than 5 years old you should have TPM 2.0.
To find out if your Windows 10 PC already has it go to Start > Settings > Update and Security > Windows Security > Device Security. If you have it, you’ll see a Security processor section on the screen.”
So when they say:
“Important: Windows 11 requires TPM version 2.0.”
They’re requiring a standard established 7 years ago. Windows 11 launched in 2021, why WOULDN’T it require something from 2016?
You really want to run an OS from 2021 on hardware older than 2016? That’s not going to be a good idea, TPM or not.
Just because you haven’t enabled it doesn’t mean it’s not available. If you want a modern operating system, that’s the “you must be this tall to ride this ride.”
Linux if you’re prepared to support it entirely yourself
What does this even mean? The most work caused in administering my company's IT comes from destructive patches from Microsoft. Just like a month ago they released a security patch that caused the domain controller to not reboot which is pretty much the worst thing you can run into aside outright malicious actors (not sure Microsoft doesn't count as one). So I had to "support" users by rolling back untested shit until a hotfix was released.
My private setup runs exclusively on Linux. Patches also sometimes cause trouble but it's just as infrequent and less destructive if it happens.
It's really not that different from an admin point of view but it's not Linux' business model to snoop on or extort you or to force proprietary hardware on you because sEcUrItY.
Just nobody talks about that - it’s all wonderful in the land of Linux. A breeze managing 600+ laptops used by non-it-literate execs. No error all the time!
My favorite is when the sssd package maintainers don’t properly update their dependencies, so when some of the packages get updated, they don’t pull in others, and then I’m not able to log in with my external account.
Do you use the internet? Just here on Lemmy I see people asking daily about how to fix their Linux distros that just stopped booting. I mean shit, Linux Mint has an entire utility built for making hourly backups of your machine for when it fucks up and you need to restore it to a bootable state lol
Your PC is already identifiable by the license key, the hardware installed, and you signing in with a Microsoft Account. If you’re that worried about gummint tracking or something, you shouldn’t even be gaming on your PC, as games and game stores have a lot of data to leak about you and what you’re doing on the PC.
i don't sign-in to my systems with a microsoft account. hell, i don't even have one. nowadays, i dunno if i could even get one--and maintain it, as i do not have, nor want, an sms-capable or 'smart' phone. they don't do 'verification' bullshit by voice anymore, just sms.
Probably worth noting that TPM often needs to be enabled in the motherboard’s BIOS. It’s possible that OP has it already, but got the “you don’t have TPM” error when trying to upgrade to Win11, simply because it isn’t activated in their BIOS.
Also worth noting that people may have access to TPM through their CPU, notably AMD Rysens… And that some of those were plagued for a while with very bad performance issues when it was activated.
It’s supposed to be fixed now, but only if you got the right BIOS updates. Not sure myself, I kinda gave up on TPM and Windows 11 on my current hardware.
The way things are going, honestly my next PC will probably have TPM because it’ll have a newer motherboard, but I am not ruling out not having Windows on it.
It’s hard to avoid. People here just have been bitching about tpm because Linux distro maintainers don’t want to jump through hoops signing their shit. This problem doesn’t exist outside of Linux forums and people with absurdly old hardware.
Wrong. Linux has supported TPM2.0 for ages before even Windows and every distro maintainer would gladly sign their shit. The problem is that a shitload of hardware only accepts Microsoft TPM keys by default which can’t legally be used by Linux distributions, forcing the work onto the users. It’s pure vendor lock-in.
Also, this is going to be a way less of an issue when UKI’s become the standard.
As I recall it, and correct me if I am wrong; but Linux and Distros are given keys to use? So if they want to they can revoke those keys and you could only install a Windows operating system?
The the default keys on the hardware, e.g. the keys hardcoded to the motherboard are 95+% of the time only the Microsoft Windows one’s.
Even if the distro maintainers & developers had everything configured by default to be signed which is a pain in the ass without UKI’s, it still requires the user to add new keys manually. Rarely do you have hardware with a key for a Linux distribution, and even if you managed to get hardware that has them, the majority of the time it’s only keys for stuff like RHEL, Ubuntu Enterprise Edition, etc.
So if they want to they can revoke those keys
That’s generally not possible, but I imagine if the BIOS is Internet capable it could be.
and you could only install a Windows operating system.
Nope. TPM isn’t required to be able to install the system, only to take advantage of secure boot and security features of the hardware.
Yep, it’s an argument outdated by about 20 years. At that time 10 years difference between two machines meant that you had completely different machine.
But having a good 10yo machine now means it’s about on the same level as an entry-level machine now. My laptop I bought in 2013 for ~€700 had an i7 4th gen, which is totally fast enough for non-gaming usage, 8GB RAM, 500GB SSD and a dGPU that’s still faster than most iGPUs.
That are specs you can still find in modern entry-level PCs.
And that laptop has no issue running Win10 at all and if I workaround the arbitrary requirement for TPM2 and Intel Gen 8, it also runs fine. But I don’t want to risk that Microsoft sometime arbitrarily decides to not give me updates any more.
And also, the argument that it’s not a good choice to run a modern OS on a 25yo machine is a pretty dumb counter against the argument that a 10yo machine can run a modern OS without issue.
we still run win10 at the office on dual core wolfdale systems. they mostly now have 8gb ram and sata ssd. they run great. wolfdale launched in 2008, seven years before win10 was released.
i also have win11 set up on ivy bridge and haswell, that are also running very well. used daily for everything from basic office tasks, email with local multi-gigabyte mail stores, to video capture and editing. these are even older in relation to win11 than wolfdale is to win10.
the main issue is microsoft has unilaterally and arbitrarily decided that all these systems, all the way up to kaby lake (which was only discontinued by intel in 2020), which are usable by many, if not most, users for the tasks they perform are now 'obsolete'.... all in the name of profits for them and their oem partners.
Absolutely not. None of the arguments you said are even relevant for their business. If it was true they would do their best to reduce the requirements creep version to version.
Of course you can use Linux, but you made clear that you’re uninformed about that in another post.
You concentrate on the TPM but ignore the CPU requirements…? If you have a CPU that is up to spec, you have a TPM - they’re built in the CPU. Most people just need to turn it on in the BIOS (or update their BIOS as motherboard manufacturers have turned on the TPM as “Windows 11 support”)
The truth of it is, every “jump” OS, i.e. 95, XP, 7, 10 has run really poorly on >5 year old chips at the time of launching. And MS got panned at “how slow” is was. But it was also the norm to update your PC more often. Now speed increases have slowed and Moore’s Law has ended, it’s about security and performance hit of said security. The truth is, the kernel hardening and malware protection and encryption built into 11 to make it far less likely to get infected than 10 and 7 means it needs the hardware support to do it. Without it, it runs far slower or is less secure. Neither anyone wants.
When 10 support ends in 2 years time, the lowest supported processor for 11 will be nearly 9 years old…
Damn, some sense around these parts. Always felt the TPM issue was overblown. Unless you wanted Win11 on day 1, and no sensible user should be doing that anyway!
the “infection protection” relies on you to trust Microsoft that they check everything you want to do to your PC. For computer illiterate users this may be a benefit, but only if MS doesn’t turn evil or negligent or stupid and blocks apps that you need. You can brick a PC from remote with TPM.
I wonder how many people are suffering from terrible performance due to the AMD fTPU being a piece of shit? I’ve tried to turn it on for two different CPUs of different generations (3700X and 5800X) and they both had horrible stuttering. Even if I wanted to I couldn’t upgrade to Windows 11 like Microsoft wants because the experience would be unacceptable.
Do you have any references for the reduced malware infections provided by Win 11 that requires the TPU?
To quote Under Siege 2 “assumption is the mother of all fuck ups”.
3 years, dude! 😁
Enjoy giving Windows 11 a proper spin. I recommend choosing “English (World)” as the language/location, then you don’t get any of the post install bloat / sponsored apps, etc installed too. Then when you log in, just change your locale to the correct one if you want to use the Microsoft Store. Or don’t, if you want that to remain disabled.
Microsoft doesn’t care about you upgrading your personal computer. they care about business licenses. Enterprise pays the bills, and enterprise computers have all had TPM for ages. I don’t see any reason for them to make a change. consumers buying a new os for an existing computer is a drop in the bucket
Yeah, and then there are many enterprises that still use XP (edge case, but it may be well hundreds of thousands worldwide still) or Win 7 (possible millions of companies). It is not all smooth sailing in enterprise level either, many companies are upgrade averse, and if the stuff works, then why upgrade it.
Because of missing support and updates. These machines are not their concern though - they are running obsolete software and/or hardware that’s incompatible with an upgrade. No matter the requirements for tpm on win 11.
Because it’s cheaper to sell them back then support all the bullshit and replace batteries every damn week whenever anybody complains about having a slow computer. As well as an easy way to manage money. You just lease the machines, send them off, and if there is a problem the vendor deals with shipping, troubleshooting, and all the labor managing an older device.
Add comment