Condemning Palestinians is contemptible

I learned the word “condemn” at an early age. It was used constantly on Irish news bulletins in the 1980s.

In theory, “condemn” is a verb that may be applied to any act that triggers feelings of strong disapproval. In practice, it is used more to oppose violence by the oppressed than the oppression which causes that violence.

The partition of both Ireland and Palestine was ushered in by Britain.

As well as carving up both countries, Britain pursued similar policies in both situations.

People of one ethnicity and religion were encouraged to discriminate – systematically – against people of another. In both cases, the discrimination took place in a context of settler-colonialism.

With that history having consequences that endures to this day, Britain ought to be condemned routinely by everyone who opposes injustice.

If the media actually did their job and exposed Britain’s crimes, then comments made over the past few days by James Cleverly, the foreign secretary, would have zero credibility.

According to Cleverly, Britain “unequivocally condemns the horrific attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians.” Britain, he added, “will always support Israel’s right to defend itself.”

The “attacks” to which he alluded were actually a response to the brutal subjugation of the Palestinian people. Britain set that subjugation in motion as far back as 1917, when Arthur James Balfour, one of Cleverly’s predecessors as foreign secretary, signed his infamous declaration supporting the Zionist movement and its colonization project.

Right to defend?

All talk about Israel’s “right to defend itself” is utter bollocks – if I may use a term with which Cleverly is undoubtedly familiar.

Israel – which has subjected Gaza to a total blockade since 2007 and bombarded its people with frightening regularity – does not have the right to defend itself. The truth is that Palestinains have a right – recognized by the United Nations General Assembly – to defend themselves against Israel’s military occupation and all its attendant aggression.

Ursula von der Leyen, president of the European Commission, tried to sound even angrier than Cleverly. She fulminated against “the attack carried out by Hamas terrorists,” labeling it “terrorism in its most despicable form.”

Needless to say, von der Leyen had nothing to say about how the European Union mollycoddles Israel – actively seeking closer relations with that state, even as its government assumes an overtly fascist character. Von der Leyen herself has implicitly endorsed the ethnic cleansing on which Israel was founded in 1948 by praising the Zionist dream of making “the desert bloom.”

With that record, it is not surprising that von der Leyen is selective in her outrage.

Ariel Kallner, a member of the Knesset (Israel’s parliament), reacted to the Hamas-led operation by calling for a new Nakba.

The Nakba – Arabic for catastrophe – involved the expulsion of approximately 800,000 Palestinians from their homes. Kallner advocated a “Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of ‘48,” contending “there is no other way.”

Kallner chairs a committee in the Knesset handling Israel’s relations with the EU. Yet his call did not elicit any comment from von der Leyen or other senior players in the Brussels bureaucracy.

Von der Leyen’s reticence is consistent. If she gave her blessing to the first Nakba, then why would she have any qualms about a new one?

read more: electronicintifada.net/…/condemning-palestinians-…

archive: archive.ph/O9zPI

Critical_Insight,

This is not Putins war on Ukraine. There’s no clear victim and aggressor here, and any time someone talks about it as if it’s not extremely complicated, they just make it sound like they have no idea what they’re talking about in the first place.

Forcibly taking land from one group and giving it to another is not cool but neither is randomly lobbing rockets onto the civilians.

Arrakis,

There’s no clear victim and aggressor here

Decades of Palestinian occupation by colonial forces called. They’d like a word.

yogthos,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

How long did it take you to craft the most inane take possible?

ksynwa,
@ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Please explain this complexity we are talking about here.

Critical_Insight,

I don’t pretend to be any kind of an expert on the subject. This is one of those things, that the more you read, the less it feels like I know.

I used to default to the Israeli side, but then I heard Netanyahu on a podcast and that guy could not sound more like an aspiring dictator so I looked into it a bit more, and now I just choose to observe this fiasco from the sidelines and not form strong opinions about a subject I don’t understand.

ksynwa,
@ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Why did you default to the Israeli side earlier?

yogthos,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

We all know the answer is racism.

Critical_Insight,

Because my understanding was that they were just trying to live their lives peacefully while their neighbours are lobbing rockets onto their side for apparently no reason.

jungle,

I don’t think you can simplify thousands of years of history to one comment.

ksynwa,
@ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml avatar

Not with that attitude

jabberati,
@jabberati@social.anoxinon.de avatar

deleted_by_author

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  • ksynwa,
    @ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Things seem pretty cut and dry from that article. What part explains the complexities that the rubes shilling for Palestine cannot wrap their head around?

    kayjay,

    The part where people have been living in a place for hundreds of years only to have someone else come in and take it and then put them in the worlds largest prison?

    ksynwa,
    @ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    I agree but that is a pretty simple to understand scenario, right? I was asking where the aforementioned complexity is in the whole thing.

    Critical_Insight,

    Do we just load the Israeli population on a ship and anchor them on the mediterranean sea, or what’s your plan here?

    ksynwa,
    @ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    I don’t have a plan. Probably owing to the fact that I am a nobody living in Asia. Guess that means I just have to conjure imaginary moral complexities and minimise the atrocities that Israel has been carrying out without consequences with US and EU backing.

    Critical_Insight,

    No one is minimising the atrocities that Israel has been carrying out.

    It’s you who was questioning my statement, that it’s a complex issue, and now your failure to come up with anything even remotely sounding like a solution seems to indicate that it indeed is.

    ksynwa,
    @ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    But it’s not a complex issue. Palestine has been reduced to a concentration camp by settler colonialists for decades. An armed uprising is the logical next step for them if the rest of the world has failed them. What’s complicated about that? You are just handwringing about civilian casualties without a hint of irony from your .uk domain and comparing Hamas (which Israel helped create btw) to Nazi Germany like a goddamned fool.

    The worst crimes of Hamas that you will hear of today will not even be a drop in a bucket compared to what Palestine has had to go through. And it’s not even a contest. You can spout settler apoligia while hiding behind the shield of moral purity like a coward all you want. It doesn’t make the situation complicated because either you haven’t bothered to investigate it or you just wanna cheer on for the settlers.

    Pili,

    What are you talking about? The Palestinians have been emprisoned in an open air concentration camp for 70 years, their children being regularly bombarded, their houses stolen, their women raped, their food and water taken away by the occupying military.

    It’s crystal clear who the aggressor here is, the situation in Palestine is very straight forwards compared to the one in Ukraine.

    Critical_Insight,

    The Palestinians have been emprisoned in an open air concentration camp for 70 years, their children being regularly bombarded, their houses stolen, their women raped, their food and water taken away by the occupying military.

    This is all true. What is also true is that Hamas has been firing rockets indiscriminately towards the Israeli civilian population and to my knowledge they would like to wipe out all jews off the face of the earth very much like the nazies would have. That’s just few reasons as to why this is extremely complex issue and I can’t take seriously anyone who claims otherwise.

    I’d love to hear how you think this conflict is more straight forward than the one going between Ukraine and Russia. What could possibly justify what Russia is doing?

    Mytraya,

    Thank you

    HubertManne,
    HubertManne avatar

    "The partition of both Ireland and Palestine was ushered in by Britain" far more than that and more than just britain. All the colonial countries ended up making artificial borders. I mean the india/pakistan thing is from it. Pretty much all of africa, america, and a lot of asia are all sorta artificial borders dictated by colonies and then rearranged in war.

    zerfuffle,

    Palestinians have the right to revolution just like the Americans, French, and Chinese did. That revolution might be bloody, but the fight for sovereignty and equality is rarely peaceful.

    socsa,

    deleted_by_moderator

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  • ExLisper,

    At this point I see two solutions:

    • just ignore it. there’s nothing we can do about it anyway
    • plant a doomsday device that will go off at any new hostility. Like a huge nuclear bomb that will turn entire Israel into radioactive desert if any side launches any new attack. Give them a week to figure out how they will work together to prevent it. If they can than great, no more aggression. If they can’t than great, radioactive desert and no more aggression.
    MrNesser,

    I’m done with both sides; I’ve sympathised with the Palestinian people in the past - to a large extent Hamas is not the Palestinian people but is still the goverment the people voted in. Both sides have committed atrocious acts of violence and its got them nowhere in 75 years.

    The situation cannot continue as is and Hamas has burned bridges it couldn’t have afforded to burn.

    Israel is very capable of walking over the Palestinian territories and occupying them indefinitely, the only thing holding them back has been international pressure - which has now been released due to the recent attacks.

    I’m ready as is most of my generation I believe, to see the next iteration of the middle east however that turns out.

    I just feel sorry for those who are going to be rolled over.

    Illecors,

    Thank you for putting to words what I couldn’t.

    curiousaur,

    Exactly. The continuing conflict is what’s condemnable. And only Israel has the means to end it permanently. In the long run, that’s the better solution now. Just get it over with.

    gnuhaut,

    “Both sides”

    medium.com/…/israeli-palestinian-conflict-96-of-d…

    However, recent data from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) shows that since 2005, 96% of deaths have been Palestinian.

    Every time the oppressed fight back, libs immediately start to create a false equivalence with the oppressors.

    tallwookie,

    if Hamas didnt want to be condemned, they shouldnt have focused on attacking civilians. they’re basically fucked now.

    ShimmeringKoi,
    @ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

    if Isreal didnt want to be condemned, they shouldnt have focused on attacking civilians. they’re basically fucked now.

    theKalash,

    they’re basically fucked now

    Are they? Who’s gonna fuck them?

    tetraodon,

    Dude, it’s possible to condemn both.

    Hamas and Bibi both want one thing: power. And they don’t give a shit about the people they’re supposed to be protecting.

    Unfortunately, Palestinians support Hamas just as much as Israeli support the hard right.

    AOCapitulator,
    @AOCapitulator@hexbear.net avatar

    you are ridiculous, fuck you forever for telling oppressed peoples they’re fighting off their slavers improperly.

    determinism2,

    Yes, everyone in the world on any side of any conflict wants power and power only. They have no picture of what they will do with that power or broader projects other than to have it. I say this over and over and over every time anything happens ever. It’s just a hard, thought-terminating truth but I’m willing to repeat it.

    ghosts,

    deleted_by_author

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  • tetraodon,

    How is murdering party-goers doing anything to liberate Palestinians or reclaim an inch of land?

    Palestinians have a right to their land. But Hamas is not helping anyone but themselves.

    SeventyTwoTrillion,
    @SeventyTwoTrillion@hexbear.net avatar

    Alright, cool! What is your strategy for the Palestinians to get their land back?

    They peacefully protest - they get shot. They don’t even protest at all - they get shot. Do you want them to vote? Should the Palestinians call their representatives in Tel Aviv and say that they won’t be voting for them if they don’t end the occupation? Oh, I know - they should try to elect a third party to the government!

    tetraodon,

    I don’t know at this point. But I know one thing: pouring gasoline on fire is not a strategy for extinguishing it.

    I’ll ask you a non-rhetorical question: What were Hamas’ leaders hoping to accomplish when they sent gunmen to shoot civilians attending a rave party? What’s their strategy?

    SeventyTwoTrillion,
    @SeventyTwoTrillion@hexbear.net avatar

    To demoralize Israel. Which it has been, severely.

    tetraodon,

    I see. Mission accomplished, then. If the razing of Gaza is what they want, that is.

    AOCapitulator,
    @AOCapitulator@hexbear.net avatar

    you disgust me

    SeventyTwoTrillion, (edited )
    @SeventyTwoTrillion@hexbear.net avatar

    It was already being razed in slow motion. It was an open air prison in desperate poverty. It was a concentration camp that the demons in charge of Nazi Germany would have given their fullest approval.

    Dunking on them, or doing idiotic “play stupid games, win stupid prizes!!!” shit is like watching Jewish people trying to escape the Warsaw ghetto in an uprising and then watching the Nazis exterminate them and then saying “Well! If they didn’t want this to happen, the Jews shouldn’t have resisted! They should have calmly and peacefully allowed themselves to be taken to the concentration camps!”

    Palestine had the choice of a guaranteed slow death by drowning, or a quick end to the conflict - one way or another. Decades have gone by and nobody outside of the Middle East (apart from the DPRK and a couple others) really give a shit about Palestine. All the back and forth of “ohh where should we put our embassies? ohoho, should we acknowledge that Palestine is a state? ohoho!” achieved nothing. Ten million people could have protested across Europe every single day for decades for the liberation of Palestine, and it would have accomplished less than a single Palestinian soldier making a single rocket to be shot down by the Iron Dome. All the diplomatic shit means nothing. It has meant nothing for decades. Even peaceful protest of Israel in the form of BDS is basically outlawed in some places, and largely ineffectual regardless.

    Palestinians shouldn’t, and almost certainly don’t, give a shit about the condemnations of western countries. About what western politicians are saying about them. It means nothing. Their strategies should be independent of “how it looks to outsiders”. A Palestinian could throw a pebble in the vague direction of an Israeli soldier and receive more condemnation from the media than Israel murdering a hundred thousand Palestinian civilians in bombing raids in retaliation. “If you didn’t want the bombing raid, you fucking stupid idiot, then MAYBE you shouldn’t have thrown that pebble! Play stupid games!” Who gives a shit about “how it looks” anymore.

    I do have a question for you: let’s say Russia takes, say, Kramatorsk, surrounding it such that no civilians could escape. Imagine those civilians resisted, made Molotovs, fired improvised explosions at the Russians, and the Russians responded by carpetbombing Kramatorsk. Hundreds of civilians dead every single day. I then say “Well, looks like the civilians have guaranteed their own deaths, then. Well done, fucking idiots. Shouldn’t have fired those rockets at the Russian military if you wanted to live.” Would you be in my position, angry that you could possibly think that about a group of people valiantly resisting? How you could possibly look at the buildings being toppled by Russian bombs and think that was justified?

    tetraodon,

    It’s not as black and white as this though. The Jews never claimed to want to genocide the Germans as Hamas does with Israel. Arafat had been using violent methods since he came to power in 1969, and Hamas continued his legacy.

    It is no surprise that the other party also responds with violence. But Israel is not any less moral. It is simply more capable of violence.

    SeventyTwoTrillion,
    @SeventyTwoTrillion@hexbear.net avatar

    Israel created Hamas!

    Outdoor_Catgirl,
    @Outdoor_Catgirl@hexbear.net avatar

    Someone is stabbing you in the stomach. Do you struggle and fight back or do you lay down and die? If you fight back you might have a chance to make them stop, or you might get stabbed more and die quickly. If you lay down and die, you are sure to bleed out and die. You want to guarantee the genocide of the Palestinians by telling them to not resist.

    tetraodon,

    Someone is stabbing me in the stomach, I don’t pick up an AR-17 and murder 200 random people. If this is hard to understand for you, we don’t have enough in common to continue this conversation.

    AOCapitulator,
    @AOCapitulator@hexbear.net avatar

    I have nothing in common with souless pieces of shit who finger wag enslaved people’s right to self defense.

    Fuck you, you disgusting sack of shit

    StalinwasaGryffindor,

    I don’t know what hamas’ strategy is. I will say this attack will absolutely make settlers second guess whether they want to leave their comfortable life in Brooklyn to set up a new life on stolen land. Is that a good enough reason? I don’t know for sure, but to pretend that this is completely pointless violence is bullshit

    Shinji_Ikari,
    @Shinji_Ikari@hexbear.net avatar

    Shooting children through a fence has been a pretty good strategy for Israel, why not give that one a go?

    smallaubergine,

    But OP was saying Palestinians not Hamas?

    NoneOfUrBusiness,

    Not that I supposed attacking civilians, but there's basically nothing else to do. Terrorism has proven time and time again to be a tool of the oppressed who can't win in a straight fight.

    brain_in_a_box,

    How dare they not just lay down and die.

    AOCapitulator,
    @AOCapitulator@hexbear.net avatar

    civillians like the fucking general they captured in the military compound they also raided as part of a larger military plan?

    You are a fucking FOOL

    Commiejones,
    @Commiejones@hexbear.net avatar

    Settlers aren’t civilians. They are non combat support for the occupation that the international courts have declared illegal. They are paid by the state of israel to squat on land they have stolen.

    charliespider,

    LOLZ! Did you try to blame Britain for the Arabs and Jews not getting along?

    ViciousTangerine,

    Refusing to condemn Hamas when they intentionally target civilians for atrocities won’t win Palestinians any supporters outside largely irrelevant internet communities. Israel does things that are clearly in the wrong all the time, and so does Hamas. It would be nice if people could hold the extremists on their own side to a minimal standard, even when it’s uncomfortable, but that lack of accountability is why we’re here.

    charliespider,

    Yup, this is fascism vs terrorism. My only empathy is for all of the innocent people from both sides caught in the middle.

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