YSK: No Labels is a political party trying to run a spoiler candidate for President in 2024 that should not be taken seriously.

WYSK: There funded by dark money PACS, but some good reporting has brought out these names: David Koch, Peter Thiel, Reid Hoffman, Mark Cuban, Harlan Crow, and Michael Bloomberg. Some of there members are most famous for stopping big bills. Joe Leiberman, for example, single handedly stopped the single payer portion of the ACA. Senators Joe Manchin and Kyrsen Simena kept the John Lewis voting rights act from passing, and famously kept the senate from repealing the filibuster.

ArugulaZ,
ArugulaZ avatar

Biden is doing a good job given the circumstances. If you don't want the total destruction of the United States, there is really only one choice for president... Joe Biden. All other roads lead to the Dark Lord Trumples, the Silly Piggy.

voxov7,
@voxov7@lemmy.world avatar

Biden. Voting Reform.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

What reform, exactly?

Rusticus,

Lots of people say and think that Biden is too old and demented but his has been the best Democratic presidency in 50 years.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Is this comment satirical?

couragethebravedog,

Care to say why he's the best in 50 years ? I for one think Obama is hard to beat.

Rusticus,

Don’t confuse president with presidency. Obama did a poor job of negotiation and was unable to achieve any give and take with republicans. Biden just prevented a government shutdown and has passed far more progressive legislation and has made much more decisive decisions. Biden’s DOD knew Putin was going to attack Ukraine for months and prepared for it.

FlashMobOfOne, (edited )
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Biden’s DOD knew Putin was going to attack Ukraine for months and prepared for it.

As if that matters to a wage earner.

Under both Obama and Biden, the following statements are true for at least 40,000,000 Americans (probably a whole lot more now): You need multiple jobs to live. You can't afford health care. You can't afford to educate yourself or your kids. The majority of the taxes you pay go overseas to fight between eight and ten wars, some of which aren't ours. Israel gets more in aid from your tax dollars than you do. You are never more than one paycheck away from being ruined and homeless.

We're likely going to be an outright fascist state within the next ten years because Democrats, when we gave them power, used it to make the rich wealthier. It's that simple.

Chetzemoka,
Chetzemoka avatar

Why does no one making this kind of dumbass comment ever acknowledge the very obvious role that Republican obstruction has played in stopping any Democratic attempt to fix this shit in the past 40 years?

Stop gerrymandering, implement approval voting (easier for most people to understand than ranked choice), watch good legislation actually get passed.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Why does no one making this kind of dumbass comment ever acknowledge the very obvious role that Republican obstruction has played in stopping any Democratic attempt to fix this shit in the past 40 years?

Probably because they know more about history than you do, clearly, and aren't content to watch these vulgar, wealthy Democrats break their promises over the course of entire generations.

Chetzemoka,
Chetzemoka avatar

Lmfao, completely ignoring the long history of Republican obstruction, deregulation, tax breaks for the rich, and systemic dismantling of the American middle class.

Completely ignoring the accomplishment that was the Affordable Healthcare Act before it was gutted by the Republicans. Ignoring the historic legislation passed by the Biden administration like the Climate Bill and the Infrastructure Bill.

But yeah, Democrats have been the real problem the whole time...

Stop parroting this propaganda that only benefits the right wing destructionists.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

But yeah, Democrats have been the real problem the whole time…

Totally. I shouldn't expect Democrats to use the majorities we gave them over the last 40 years to do things that actually help the middle class, like codify abortion into law or enact a living wage. I should just, you know, listen to the speeches, clap, and accept excuses, as you do.

Rusticus,

Loool. Is this a joke?

Republican policies have destroyed the middle class since Reagan. You just said “you can’t afford to educate yourself or your kids” yet fail to acknowledge Biden’s student loan forgiveness plan.

You are complaining about problems ENTIRELY CAUSED BY REPUBLICANS yet are blaming Democrats. You call when the shuttle lands crazy man.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Republican policies have destroyed the middle class since Reagan.

And we've given Democrats several majorities in the last four decades, and they've used them to empower the wealthy and kill the middle class even more. At some point a reasonable person has to acknowledge that a failure to act constitutes policy.

Biden’s student loan forgiveness plan

Biden can forgive student loans unilaterally, and he already has in the case of people who were defrauded, so his so-called plan only served to add red tape to a process that didn't require it. Effectively, he's running cover for his wealthy donors on this issue and trying to retain positive optics, which apparently worked really well in your case, but I'm guessing you never had student loan debt.

Rusticus,

You are a shill or troll if you really think any continent human will buy your argument that Democrats are responsible for wealth inequality. Lolol.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

It's not an argument.

It's an acknowledgement of 40 years of history and incremental progress backward. When Reagan took office you could support an American family with a high school education and one employed parent. Now, you need two post-graduate degrees to guarantee success in this country. Clinton, Obama, and Biden all had control of Congress during their presidencies. (Obama even had a supermajority for six months.)

They all had the power to make real, meaningful change. They made and broke promises. That's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of historical fact, and again, a reasonable person has to acknowledge that 40 years of failure to act constitutes policy on the part of Democrats.

Rusticus,

Just to give proof of your lies and lunacy to those that don’t know: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/debunking-the-myth-obamas_b_1929869

Rusticus,

“Obama had a supermajority for 6 months”

“Historical fact”

Lol. Not only are you ignorant and wrong, you’re doubling down for the whole fediverse to see your lunacy.

voxov7,
@voxov7@lemmy.world avatar

Ranked choice voting, fix gerrymandering and voter suppression, end disenfranchisement of felons. Such things. I would love to hear any ideas if you or lemmy had some.

Lenins2ndCat,
@Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

The dems are never going to pass voting reform for the same reason the UK labour party (a considerably further left party than the dems) has never passed it despite pretending they would consider it for multiple decades now. They benefit from FPTP. All they would be doing is diluting their power and handing over a huge portion of the political landscape to socialists who would immediately become relevant, they would then be forced to actually come to agreements with those socialists as opposed to just completely and totally ignoring them as they do currently.

assassin_aragorn,

Is labour still even left of Democrats? Their anti trans courting and behavior speaks volumes.

Lenins2ndCat,
@Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

Pink washing doesn't make the party "left". It doesn't absolve the democrats of being warmongers, global keepers of imperialism, upholders of torture facilities or the border concentration camps full of children.

What makes them left or right is where they sit economically as representatives of the capitalist class, the millionaires and billionaires.

Even David Cameron, former leader of the Tories, is to the left of Biden.

I absolutely agree that Labour throwing trans people under a bus is abhorrent though. Unfortunately with the way things are there is no left spoiler alternative to go for, although the Greens will probably function as one they're very far from what the those of us in the third of the country who fought for Corbyn believe in.

thallamabond,

Oh looky here,

www.cnn.com/2022/01/19/politics/…/index.html

Manchin and Sinema blocking exactly what your talking about

Lenins2ndCat,
@Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

And you think that the dems wouldn’t magically find someone else to do a spoiler vote on issues they don’t really want to pass? Lmao why are americans this hilariously naive? These people do not represent the average working class person, they represent millionaires and billionaires, they represent the very corporate owners that the fediverse exists to escape from. When you finally realise this you will begin to start seeing through the bullshit. Half of this stuff can be done via Executive powers. They don’t do it because they do not want to.

TheDubz87,

Unfortunately, we’re all so polarized left/right, red/blue, that everyone’s become blind to this. The big wigs started a culture/political war to keep us away from the class war. And they’ve won unfortunately. Part of the reason I can’t get I to politics with anyone, because while they all scream left or right, I’m out here on my soap box screaming tear the whole government down and start over. The “progressive” parties will only push as hard as they can without losing any of their/their corporate overlords excess income.

Lenins2ndCat,
@Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

The liberals will never recognise the trend of history that they’ve created, or take blame. They will blame the people instead, choosing to blame ontological factors over a materialist understanding of history.

Billy_Gnosis,
@Billy_Gnosis@lemmy.world avatar

Joe Biden should be in an old folks home. He can barely stand up let alone lead a nation. No fan of the other guy either, but let's face it. Both of them are only puppets on a string.

sensibilidades,

nonetheless, Biden still sounds far, far more coherent than Trump ever did when President

surewhynotlem,

"a historic bipartisan infrastructure bill, generational investments in clean energy and semiconductor manufacturing, the first gun safety law in almost 30 years, a bill codifying same-sex marriage, a bill aiding veterans who suffered health effects from burn pits and an electoral reform to prevent a repeat of Trump’s attempt to use Congress to undermine the election."

https://thehill.com/homenews/4015533-dear-democrats-stop-talking-about-bidens-age-and-focus-on-his-accomplishments/

I think he's doing a fine job.

Lenins2ndCat,
@Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

How many kids are still imprisoned in the concentration camps on the border?

Chetzemoka,
Chetzemoka avatar

In today's news, people can think about more than one thing at a time. Border policy doesn't negate the fact that the Climate Bill and the Infrastructure Bill were objectively good, historic pieces of legislation.

Lenins2ndCat,
@Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

I don't think that answers my question? How many children are still locked up in concentration camps on the border? What is the number? Do you even know or are you just completely checked out from the issue because you are morally reprehensible? Let me illuminate it for you, 1 in 3 of all migrants held in america's concentration camps is a child.

The fact the US has concentration camps on the border and that liberals have just conveniently forgotten about it and gone back to brunch as soon as Biden became president is the problem here. You make claims before an election about issues and then do nothing about them when you have every power to do so. Then you wonder why nobody is enthused to vote for a gaggle of liars.

Pretending that the US is doing literally anything about climate is also a joke. The bill is worthless because it does not change the fact that fossil industries have a higher rate of profit than renewables and until this is resolved every single action on climate is completely performative that only brings us closer and closer to the inevitable disaster that capitalism has caused. What you are doing is greenwashing concentration camps.

Chetzemoka,
Chetzemoka avatar

Hey, here's the funny thing about the internet: No one is obligated to engage in questions posed in bad faith.

Here's what the climate bill contains for anyone actually interested:
https://youtu.be/qw5zzrOpo2s

Lenins2ndCat,
@Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

It wasn’t asked in bad faith. If you knew the answer beforehand I would have happily conceded you do in fact care about having concentration camps. Not knowing is absolutely a sign of being checked out, which is half the issue here, none of you actually do anything except vote. You see politics as something you do once every few years and as a spectator sport the rest of the time. You have no concept of electoral vs non-electoral politics, you literally do not take part politically except as entertainment consumption outside of voting. You all have this embarrassing mindset:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/1bb42bba-8bf5-442a-8082-1e10add45dda.png

Chetzemoka,
Chetzemoka avatar

I know the question is in bad faith because these are not concentration camps:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/07/biden-migrant-families-detention

Lenins2ndCat,
@Lenins2ndCat@lemmy.world avatar

The definition of a concentration camp is: “a place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities”.

They are concentration camps. Calling them “migrant detention facilities” does not change their function. It also does not change the fact that the US has been forcefully sterilising women in them either.

Chetzemoka,
Chetzemoka avatar

"If families were detained, they would be held for short periods of time, perhaps just a few days, and their cases expedited through immigration court"

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/07/biden-migrant-families-detention

Not concentration camps. You don't get to leave a concentration camp after having your day in court. Are detention centers ideal? No. But neither is leaving people in the desert without food, water, or shelter, (or worse, leaving them prey to local vigilantes).

Yes, the Trump administration was keeping people in horrific conditions, forcibly sterilizing women, and separating children from their parents without cause and without tracking. If you have some specific evidence that those abuses continue to this day under the Biden administration, please feel free to share.

CannaVet,

Biden has accomplished alot of big things actually, they just aren't culture war issues so Republicans have never heard of any of them.

yunggwailo,
yunggwailo avatar

go back to the fox news grandpa

Otome-chan,
Otome-chan avatar

tbh I think if Biden gets reelected, america will inevitably collapse as a nation. we're already close to the tipping point and biden has done nothing but accelerate that collapse.

TheTetrapod,

Biden has been as milquetoast as possible. The fact that the right is becoming more and more unhinged only shows how off the rails they are.

Otome-chan,
Otome-chan avatar

I think biden is actually an extremist in social policy, and an emboldend corporate shill in economic policy. So while he might be "milquetoast" in terms of democrat vs republican, he's far from what regular people want/need.

Ironically, most establishment republicans are also this way. They're happy to push insane social policy stuff, while bootlicking the corporations.

I honestly think that the GOP will probably split or collapse due to the establishment GOP's resistance to their populist voterbase. Democrats call it 'unhinged' but when informal polls show literally hitler as preferable by both left and right to biden/trump, I would say that both dnc/gop are the unhinged ones, not the people sick of the two parties.

"milquetoast" is the literal polar opposite of what we need right now.

Zadkine,

I would like to see those polls.

Otome-chan,
Otome-chan avatar

See here. Obviously informal, obviously people expressing "as a joke" or just trolling. These polls bias towards right wing followers. But still revealing nonetheless. In my circles I'm seeing both far left and far right move towards populist "centrist" rhetoric and labeling. Andrew Yang's Forward Party being emblematic of that (who I just found out support No Labels).

We also saw things like Jimmy Dore go onto Tucker Carlson's show, both Dore and Carlson expressing discontent with the Biden/Trump matchup, and both being pushed out from more establishment MSM/DNC/GOP stuff.

To me it looks pretty clear that many people are eager for drastic change, in a way that would clearly benefit and help the average person; with severe opposition to the establishment talking points and organizations. We also recently saw this with the covid stuff, both far left and far right joining to express skepticism over the mainstream establishment narrative.

People are very clearly upset with the way DC politics are going. Biden is historically unpopular with everyone except his core base and progressives. Trump is pretty universally disliked except among the right (who are growing discontent with him).

When I say a Biden election will lead to the collapse of America I say this mainly because I see the way things will go in the next few years if Biden gets reelected. The automation crisis will worsen, wealth inequality will worsen, progressive extremism will worsen, geopolitical conflict will worsen, the border crisis will worsen. And when push comes to shove it's obvious to most people that biden will side with the larger wef/un agendas.

America is starting to reach around 250 years, which is historically shown to be the point of collapse for empires. The establishment organizations are planning for a big 2030 political event, and I'm sure already have an entire plan for 2028 election. I imagine growing discontent with a biden or trump second term will roll in nicely to people flocking to the candidate picked for 2028 who will almost certainly be addressing automation crisis and geopolitics.

Most people are aware biden and trump are awful, and do not like them. Most people already do not vote. and those who do vote feel "stuck" with biden/trump. Many are saying things like "I don't like biden, but I vote for him because I don't like Trump" and vice versa.

Strong action is needed, but not the kind that Biden is doing.

Jon-H558,

And Donald trump will be better? He did more harm in his 4years than biden has in his

Otome-chan,
Otome-chan avatar

If trump gets elected, america will also inevitably collapse. neither are equipped to handle the upcoming issues.

ScrumblesPAbernathy,

If someone refuses to admit their political affiliation in the US you can basically guarantee they're right wing.

tallwookie,
@tallwookie@lemmy.world avatar

so democrats are like vegans?

ScrumblesPAbernathy,

No, leftists are like vegans. Call a vegan a vegetarian, "I'm not a vegetarian, I'm a vegan!"

Call a leftist a democrat, "I'm not a democrat, I'm a leftist!"

(btw, I'm a leftist. Not a vegan though)

burningmatches,

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone call themselves a “leftist”, but maybe I move in the wrong circles. (I am a vegan though.)

xtremeownage,

Ya know, it’s not always democrats versus republicans…

Until everyone stops voting for this bullshit two-party system, it’s just going to keep being dems and repubs pointing fingers at each other.

(This- is in no way me providing any endorsement, or affection for whatever candidate is in question. I know nothing about the person).

Maggoty,

It's not actually two parties though. Both of them have multiple factions vying for power inside their party. Progressives versus Third Way. MAGA versus Finance.

The entire idea of two parties is an info op.

sol87,

Elected officials from both parties almost always seem to all vote for the same as the rest of their party and even at times vote against the opposing party only because the opposing party is voting for it.

Maggoty,

You should take a closer look then.

Jon-H558,

In the current fptp system it has to be. Until ranked choice for president and proportional representation for the house then usually the left will shatter. The republic strongest point is they all vote under one big group even if they disagree internally. All splitting the vote will do is empower that "team"

Psephomancy,

Until ranked choice for president

That wouldn’t change anything. RCV still produces a polarized two-party system.

ScrumblesPAbernathy,

I'm not a democrat, I'm a leftist.

xtremeownage,

Stop trying to play the victim. I didn’t say a single thing about you, nor your political affiliation.

ScrumblesPAbernathy,

Sorry, I was making a joke. I replied above about leftists being like vegans. Joke missed, my bad.

xtremeownage,

Apologies then. Clicking my alerts by default only gives the immediately comment reply as context.

Hobovision,
Hobovision avatar

Good luck electing anyone not in the two party system. I think there's 1 or 2 independent senators and no independent representatives. You need to change the rules of the game, cause like it or not were all playing the game. And not voting or voting 3rd party when they're polling at 1% is just giving an extra vote to someone who disagrees with you.

xtremeownage,

Good luck electing anyone not in the two party system.

There isn’t that much luck needed. Just people to realize they don’t have to vote between a douche or the turd (south park reference). And, when people do so- turns out, it is possible to elect something other than a douche or a turd.

my.lp.org/elected-officials/

blightbow, (edited )
blightbow avatar

It is possible, but a major US election requires a massive burst of popularity to avoid splitting the vote of the majority candidate having "less shitty than the other guy" policy positions. Failure to breach that threshold hands the victory to the majority candidate with the shittiest position on policies.

The simple test is this: has your third-party candidate achieved a realistically high margin of popular opinion behind them? I'm not saying be a slave to polling, but it isn't rocket science either. You will know if a third-party candidate has momentum behind them. They have charisma that sucks people in. They are somehow getting attention regularly driven to them despite the majority candidates pumping much more money into the news media.

If the third-party candidate doesn't have something bordering on a revolutionary ideological movement backing them, they aren't going to make that cut in a nationwide race.

Edit: I'm not saying give up. Donate to causes you honestly believe in. Volunteer. Do what you can to make a difference. Support local government efforts to implement ranked choice voting in your state, which can and will break this system. (look at Alaska) But when it comes to casting that final vote, be realistic, even if it means voting against all the hard work you just put in. Sunk cost fallacy at the expense of giving away victory doesn't help anyone.

Jon-H558,

Not even majority....just plurality trump lost the popular vote and the more you split it the less majority is needed (until ranked choice or runoffs is brought in). In the UK the current government holds absolute power on just 38% of the popular vote thanks to first past the post and constituency based representation.

yunggwailo,
yunggwailo avatar

its literally always democrats versus republicans. thats how a FPTP winner take all voting system works

morgan_423,
@morgan_423@lemmy.world avatar

This isn't going to happen until the majority of the country implements ranked choice voting, so that third party voting isn't just throwing your vote away. As long as we are in the current system, third party voting is pointless.

Focus your efforts on getting ranked choice adopted. It is the key that will actually unlock the ability to vote for third parties.

Jaysyn,
Jaysyn avatar

Now three guesses which party is trying to make RCV illegal & already have in Florida.

xtremeownage,

throwing your vote away

Until everyone stops thinking that way- the same cycle will repeat every 4 years.

Democrats and republicans blaming the person who came into office before them, for all of the countries problems, followed by a lot of election promises they will never keep.

Thereisalamp,

No, pp gave ipoh a viable path forward on 3rd party options.

Going "my way or the highway" instead of voting for people who can win is what gets you locked in fptp.

If voting records reflect spey for people who agree with and support ranked choice you'll see more politicians who support it.

DiachronicShear,

It’s pretty much an objective fact that voting third-party (especially in a swing state), is indeed “throwing your vote away”. It has been well studied and well documented.

Psephomancy,

Ranked Choice Voting doesn’t make third parties viable, either. It uses the same counting method as our current system (tally up people’s first-choice preferences) and therefore suffers from all the same problems, like vote-splitting, spoiler effect, and center-squeeze effect. You can’t fix the problems of FPTP by adding more rounds of FPTP. You need to allow voters to express opinions about all of the candidates and then actually count all of those opinions.

If you want third parties to be viable, you want real reforms like STAR Voting, Condorcet RCV, or Approval Voting.

Domriso,

They didn't say Republicans, they said right wing. The Democrats are also a right wing party, just center-right.

xtremeownage,

Here in the US(topic of this post), democratic party is considered left, republican is considered right.

TheTetrapod,

And it's silly, since the Democrats barely support any policies that could be called left-wing.

CannaVet,

and yet the Democrats are still a right wing party.

Just because we let Republicans pull the Overton Window so far to the right it's damn near broken doesn't change the fact that Dems are still right wing.

catwhowalksbyhimself,

Right and left wing are always relative, not absolute. The Democrats might be right wing if transplanted with no changes to another country, but that doesn’t matter. They are left win in comparison to the only other party that matters, so they are left wing.

It’s always relative.

CannaVet,

That’s…not how that works at all. They’re to the left of Republicans but that’s akin to saying that Mt Everest’s distance from sea level ain’t shit compared to the moon.

catwhowalksbyhimself,

That's exactly how it works.

Left and Right are always relative positions, not absolute one. And they are relative not only to each other, but to the polics of the country as a whole.

Mount Everest's high IS absolute, so it's not a valid comparison.

Left and Right are, like what they are named for, merely directions. They mean nothing without a point to compare them too.

Right is typical the traditional position, orginally with the king, and left is the reform/change position.

Which is definitely true of right and left in the US.

Candelestine,

No Labels as a name isn't even going to appeal to left-leaning folks, it sounds nonsensical and oversimplified. Things need labels, a Nazi is a Nazi. Useful label, even if the Jewish-hating, strong ethno-state sorts don't like it.

It'll appeal to moderates, but that'll pull from both sides.

Unless they run an environmentalist or something? Like a Green Party type spoiler? Would have to be an idiot not to run under their own banner though, raising awareness is their whole thing.

ArugulaZ,
ArugulaZ avatar

It's very both-sidesy. I think we're all smart enough at this point to be able to see through that equivocating bullshit.

CannaVet,

Centrists in 2023 are just MAGAts who don't want the shame

GenderNeutralBro,

Yeah, I certainly didn’t think “progressive” when I read the name. It sounds like they’re afraid to say what they are, which is a common far-right strategy.

I’ve been saying it since 2000 and I’ll keep on saying it: the time to push for third parties is every year except election year. We need election reform first. The current system simply does not allow for a meaningful election between more than two parties. It cannot represent the will of the people. It needs to change.

HipHoboHarold,
HipHoboHarold avatar

Yeah, I gives me similar vibes as "I don't see color."

But even if we remove bigotry and politics and all of that... labels aren't necesarily bad. Like I am a creature who identifies as one of two main types of sexes that is sexually and emotionally attracted to creatures who identify as the same.

Which is a weird way of saying I'm a man who is sexually and romantically attracted to men, but those are labels, so I couldn't say man, human, etc.

Of course I could also just say I'm gay. While yes, everyone is a little different, it has worked so far for me. People tend to get it.

Labels are not bad. It's an idea only used by edgy teenagers and liberals who want to be good for the praise more so than for simply being good.

assassin_aragorn,

I remember reading an article that did a deep dive into them once, and I was absolutely astounded by just how much they embodied the "enlightened centrist". I didn't think there were an appreciable number of people who were actually like that.

They continue the trend really of there being no good third party in the US - largely because FPTP makes two large parties preferable.

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

When you really look at their ideology, "enlightened centrists" are right-wingers who think they're smarter than the usual bigots that group has. This can be seen by the fact that they pretty much always will complain about hate speech being called out, but will not call out the hate speech itself. Acknowledging hate speech exists and is bad is a far bigger crime than the hate speech itself.

HonkeyZ,

Lol

assassin_aragorn,

Yeah pretty much. It's always such a big tell.

Freckled_Daywalker,

No labels is just a bunch of rich white dudes that want tax laws and legislation that makes them richer. They could not care less about social policy.

Jon-H558,

If I was the the maga or republicans right now I would fund as many leftist third parties as possible as the best way to secure a trump victory

thallamabond,

See also: Forward party, both parties have lots of catchy slogans about working together or moving forward. Yet no platform.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

And they will.

The problem is they don't have to lie about how bad Democrats have been for the people. (Not that Republicans would be any better, mind you.)

Most Americans have seen their cost of living jump 30%-50% under Joe Biden, and Biden's response is to send $100 billion overseas to fight another country's war, not to give a dime of aid to people here who actually need it.

Eatspancakes84,

Are you seriously claiming that Ukrainians do not need help? Try losing your kid to a bomb on a pizza restaurant. Wonder how the real estate market in Mariupol is.

FlashMobOfOne, (edited )
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

So does Yemen, but you know what has the US been doing? Helping Saudi Arabia starve and decimate the country for the last eight years.

And your fellow Americans are being neglected in order to fund all of this. I'm not sure why it's such a radical notion that maybe, just maybe that hundred billion should be used to benefit our own people instead of funding yet another war.

rhacer,

Great post. I feel for the people of Ukraine, the Russian aggression is not acceptable, but it is their war not our war {though we are doing as much as possible to make it out war).

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

There's just a part of me that gets really frustrated with how generally ignorant our people are of US warmongering worldwide, and they see the nightly news broadcasts about Ukraine and they've bought into the narrative.

Reminds me of when Bush I pushed the lie about babies being killed in Iraqi hospitals in order to get more public support for his war, and the endless funding that came with it.

T0rrent01,

There's a remarkable level of racism in the level of concern for Ukraine vs. somewhere with less white and European people like Yemen.

FlashMobOfOne,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

The war in Ukraine is definitely easier to market, and I think that's why.

T0rrent01,

And it infuriates me how war - people getting killed and cultural heritage being destroyed - is so capitalized like that.

Pretty sure it was the same deal with Vietnam back in the day, actually.

Jon-H558,

Sudan is imploding right now

pmarcilus,

So the rightist want to appeal to the voters to appear like they are not partisan and instead are just bunch of centrist?

fullcircle,

I just want to share my thoughts on this. It started as a response to one comment, but I realized that there’s a lot more that can (and I think should) be said, so here goes.

First, for those who don’t know, FPTP stands for First Past The Post, meaning a system where everyone votes for a single candidate and whoever gets more than 50% (i.e. “past the post”) wins the entire election (the losers get nothing). For many Americans, this might be so familiar that one would wonder how it could be any different (in a small-d democratic system), but there are in fact many alternatives: ranked voting, proportional representation, Condorcet method, etc.

They all have strengths and weaknesses, but for FPTP, and other similar systems, there’s a result in political science called Duverger’s law that says FPTP-like rules tend to cause a two-party system, essentially because because even if you don’t team up with a larger party you may disagree with on many issues, to get a majority, others will, and then they’ll win and you’ll get nothing. And since getting significantly more than 50% consumes party resources that might better be used elsewhere, but gives no reward, 50% (plus a small “safety margin”) is what all the successful parties will eventually aim for, and thus you get two roughly equally-successful parties. Tiny swings in voting then lead to massive differences in outcomes, which threatens the stability and security of everyone (even America’s “enemies”).

So saying “just vote for third parties” (like I see some calling for here) is tone-deaf at best, or part of a cynical ploy to fracture the opponent’s party at worst. Even if a “third party” does win, the best that can be hoped for under FPTP is they just end up replacing one of the two parties, becoming one of the two parties in the “new” two-party system. And the two existing parties have likely spent far more time and effort researching ways to stop even that from happening than any of us ever will.

If we, as Americans, or others with a stake in what America decides to do, want to change this (and I personally do), then we need far more fundamental changes to how the system works. Just choosing a candidate we like (whether they have any chance of winning or not) won’t cut it. I don’t know what’s the best voting system to use, but I know I’d like to scrap the Electoral College, for a couple reasons:

  1. Even though one might argue that Congress and the Supreme Court are more essential to reform, it’s hard to deny that the President has a very large leadership role today.
  2. One might argue that relying on a convoluted/Byzantine method for choosing the President makes it harder to manipulate, and that’s probably true, but the two parties have shown that it being difficult is not a deterrent to them doing so: in fact, they likely both benefit from it by keeping smaller parties that can’t afford to do it out.

It reminds me of the fallacy in computer security of “security through obscurity”: if it’s possible to break into the system, and large numbers of people can benefit substantially from it, then someone eventually will, no matter how hard we make it to exploit. We need to change the system, not only so that it is prohibitively difficult for anyone to exploit the system, but also to get rid of a lot of the corruption that makes most people want to exploit it in the first place.

All of this is much easier said than done, I know, but we need to explain clearly to the public why “quick fixes” won’t work, before we can convince them of the need for more fundamental changes. We still need to work on figuring out the details of the best changes, but unless we can show people the reality of the deep structural problems that acually exist, why they exist, and how we know we’re right about what we’re saying, we’ll never convince most people to change anything.

squaresinger,

You are totally right. The problem isn't zqthat such a change from within the system can only happen from a position of immense power. So to actually fix these bugs you need to

  • Have enough power to change the constitution
  • Have gotten that power through the current system
  • Be so dedicated to change the system that you are willing to risk all that power for the change, because any meaningful change means that the systems that brought you to power won't work in that way anymore.

Now, to make matters more difficult, representative democraties usually spread that power over hundreds or thousands of people. So not only you need to fit the bill above, but also the top few hundred politicians in your country need to agree to potentially losing their power.

So what tends to happen is the opposite: Politicians amass power and make it harder and harder to replace them, until a war/civil war/revolution happens and the next crowd tries to make it better.

The US has had centuries to concentrate power, contrary to many European nations that were re-founded after wars in the last century.

So unless the US as we know it collapses, there won't be significant change to the better for the political system.

Grumble,

The Dems and GOP have similar business models: trade policy and legislation for campaign donations, and deliver tribalism to voters.

That's not to say the two parties are the same - they differ significantly. One party is funded by the truly psychopathic billionaires, and the other party is funded by the usual greedy bastard billionaires. Chalk and cheese, as the British say.

MiddleWeigh,
@MiddleWeigh@lemmy.world avatar

I just want to live my life without being harassed tbh. I vote D, but they are largely all corporate shills at the presidential level. I don't know what else to say. The money involved in politics sort of makes the whole thing a farce imo.

randon31415,

I feel like Trump will be running as a spoiler candidate in 2024 at this rate.

Otome-chan,
Otome-chan avatar

ultimately I will be voting for the best candidate, regardless of party. My litmus is ubi. no ubi, no vote. if the "spoiler candidate" is the only one supporting and pushing ubi, then I will vote for them. If you don't like that, then endorse ubi and I might vote for you instead.

sadreality,

Issue is that once they realize UBI is what needed to the votes, they will promise it and not delivery like with everything else since FDR.

Political process is a waste of time. Vote with your money and feet. It has more impact.

We need ability to give no confidence vote, I guess voting third party would work like that

Otome-chan,
Otome-chan avatar

Yup. I actually went ahead and look at "no labels"'s website and.... I like the spirit, but their language use and lack of policy is concerning. It seems their focus is more about unity between democrats and republicans by "compromising with moderate policy" and opposing "far left and far right" however what I found is almost the exact opposite of that. People are tired of democrats and republicans being essentially a uniparty and not doing literally anything to accommodate the demands of those who are considered "fringe" yet are the majority.

Instead of a "sensible middle milquetoast candidate" what we need is someone who will openly accept and endorse the key points from the left and the right. The left want economic justice, sane urban planning, fixing out of control capitalism. The right want a return to sanity in social policy, culture, and proper national identity. These are not incompatible views! I keep seeing "far left" and "far right" people actually end up agreeing on both the problems in society, as well as the fixes. It's the hysteric "centrists" of democrats and republicans who seemingly work to push the corporate interests, but nothing the actual public wants/needs.

Left and right are both unified on ukraine: we don't want war. left and right are both unified on supporting mom&pops and removing support for large corporations. we want fair marketplaces with local businesses. Left and right are both unified on policing: we're tired of corrupt police who do literally nothing to keep society proper and instead just harass people. Both left and right are unified on elections, we see that the 2 party system is broken and that 3rd parties and alternative structures are needed.

The democrats and republicans are opposed to literally all of these.

While it's true things are polarized, most of the "never working with you" types end up being the centrist establishment of dnc/gop, while the far fringes have started mobilizing into a populist unity.

My hope is that these 'no labels' guys can see this, and run a candidate that marries the two in a populist bid. But what it sounds like is that they plan to run a candidate who's essentially the middle of trump and biden; the worst of both.

I guess we'll have to see when they release their policy positions?

quortez,
quortez avatar

Left and right are both unified on ukraine: we don't want war.

I would dispute this, especially on which parts of the left have positions on Ukraine, but I have zero appetite to go into in the hour that I'm posting this other than to say: the people who do not want war in Ukraine would like to see Ukraine be taken over by Russia because of anti-Americanism as a political base, and because they support fascist, imperial regimes (respectively to both sides). Neither should be catered to politically.

Otome-chan,
Otome-chan avatar

I would dispute this, especially on which parts of the left have positions on Ukraine

The far left that I see and chat with are all 100% against the ukraine/russia war and think america shouldn't be involved. It's a pretty strong consensus there.

the people who do not want war in Ukraine would like to see Ukraine be taken over by Russia because of anti-Americanism as a political base, and because they support fascist, imperial regimes (respectively to both sides).

That's an odd remark. I rarely see anyone in my circles (far left + far right) expressing pro-Russia support. But there's pretty strong consensus that America shouldn't be involved in it, nor in other overseas wars (middle east and such). The "peace" and "anti-war" stance is pretty popular among the left consistently, and RW do tend to support it in most cases (RW I see want to pull out of russia/ukraine, and israel/palestine, I've seen mixed response on other middle east conflicts). Most I see also have worries that USA will needlessly engage in war with china in the near future and wish to avoid that as well.

Most of the pro-war people tend to be democrat/republican loyalists who have more establishment views (progressive+capitalist).

ArugulaZ,
ArugulaZ avatar

Ew, Crispy Enema's in on this? That's all the information I need to shun this scheme. We HAAAAATE Crispy Enema here in Arizona. Plus she's a terrible dresser. She came into Congress one day to vote down an important bill while wearing this overblown yellow dress with huge shoulder pads. I was like, "You're a senator, not Jor-El from the planet Krypton."

Dick_Justice,
@Dick_Justice@lemmy.world avatar

Aw man, I kinda liked Mark Cuban.

sebinspace,

No good multimillionaires.

ArugulaZ,
ArugulaZ avatar

There's Batman!
(yes, I know he's fictional.)

meat_popsicle,

*billionaires.

There are millionaires just from buying a house for $150k in the right city in the 90s. Doesn’t make them evil.

janus2,

The term millionaire ought to be updated to mean someone with the capacity to spend a million dollars at any given time, not people whose assets total 1 million

I would wager the former definition includes more bad people than the latter

thallamabond,

He probably donates to ALL parties. That being said, business does not like rule changes (laws) being made. This entire party is made of people who stopped legislation in favor of big money people. Under 'Domestic Policies' on the wiki there is this "Efforts to block tax increases on the wealthiest Americans and corporations, especially in 2021 and 2022, have been attributed to No Labels by The Intercept[11] and Jacobin.[12]"

ganksy,
ganksy avatar

I'm surprised about Mark Cuban. It's not obvious but I assume you mean to include frm. Senator Joe Lieberman, and senators Manchin and Senima in the "no labels" party? I don't dispute just want to be explicit.

thallamabond,

Joe Lieberman is a Co-Founder of No Labels, while Manchin and Senima have been pushed as possible candidates.

ganksy,
ganksy avatar

Thank you for the clarification.

OldFartPhil,
OldFartPhil avatar

The New Yorker article said Cuban was approached to be a donor, but it doesn't say whether he is actually a supporter. Apparently, the group is very close-lipped about where their money is coming from (what a surprise).

I don't want to turn the thread into too much of a political discussion, but when one political party believes in democracy and one party is an existential threat to democracy, there's no room for spoiler candidates.

ganksy,
ganksy avatar

Thank you for the insight about the article. Thought better of Cuban (crypto bro and all, seems like a good guy at heart). Not a fan of Manchin, Senima or the idea of a spoiler candidate. Just wanted to validate the statement as it wasn't clear if the second half of OPs comment were actual people in the group or just a list senators of ill reprieve. Hopefully they just steal moderate republican votes.

Quexotic,

Other than the Wikipedia article in this thread, do you have other source material?
I would like to know more.

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