I’ve considered Airsonic but I haven’t found a good client that looks good and doesn’t behave weirdly. I had one launch about 500 threads trying to transcode the same song which ate up my CPU time on my server resulting in a stern e-mailing from my host.
I’ve seen a lot of discussion about Threads around the fediverse and I believe our main instance community has had a few large discussions about it (here’s a recent one)....
I don’t think this is the purpose of federation. Threads exists and has a huge amount of users.
Meta will ensure that it grows rapidly and defederating them ensures that users looking to join the largest ActivityPub-based social media network will likely go in the direction of Meta’s services.
The way that instances win this battle is to offer better services and a better experience than Threads. We simply don’t have the userbase to kill Threads by defederating with them. When given a choice the average user will default to using Meta’s services… it will take time and interaction with them to convince them to leave.
I have a question: Do you think we should be trying to compete for these users? In order to do that, wouldn’t this instance have to try to grow very large?
I don’t mean this instance or any single instance specifically. The idea of the ‘defederate Meta’ pact is to create a separate network of instances that have all blocked Meta services. That network of instances would have a tiny userbase compared to the network of instances that federated with Meta’s services. If a generic user is looking to create an account on an instance then they’d likely just default to the network that has 8 billion users rather than the one with 10 million.
I agree with the idea of smaller communities being more attractive but I think that a social network, like the Internet, works best when it is fully connected with as little friction as possible. Communities and instances can grow or limit themselves as much as they’d like but the entire network itself shouldn’t become fragmented.
I think Meta’s goal here isn’t to take over the Fediverse and own it like they own Facebook. They likely want to be like Google where they control none of the content (and all of the associated costs and legal issues) but provide the core services and ad networks that are so profitable. Google’s “content” is the entire web, they simply provide a useful service (search) and, because of that service, they have the ability to mine incredibly valuable data which they use to generate revenue through ad targeting. I think Meta is aiming for this kind of business model so that they can dump the headaches that come from hosting massive amounts of user data/content.
I’m imagining 10 years into the future where you would, instead of using Google’s Ad Sense, use Meta’s ad platform since it would provide more money from advertisements as the ad targeting is using information gathered from the ActivityPub extensions that Meta develops. Meta devotes tons developer hours to extending the social media protocols so that people use them and Meta profits from the data collection and other services (hosting instances, storing data, etc) that don’t require them to actually run a social media website directly. This makes Meta more like an aspiring symbiote rather than a hostile instance that wants to ‘take over’ the fediverse.
I think that, to combat this, people who are motiviated should be looking at ways to create a software ecosystem that counters Meta dominance. Instead people are looking at this like it’s just another instance that they don’t like. I think that’s a very short-sighted way of addressing the issue.
TheDude recently upgraded the server to the most recent version of Lemmy. You’ll notice significant improvements to the user interface, and hopefully the functionality is also improved. There is no official changelog yet because this version is not yet finalized, but I’ll link the GitHub releases page where it should...
Meta/Instagram launched a new product called Threads today (working title project92). It adds a new interface for creating text posts and replying to them, using your Instagram account. Of note, Meta has stated that Threads plans to support ActivityPub in the future, and allow federation with ActivityPub services. If you...
If we could ensure 100% compliance with a meta-blockade then I’d be for it.
However, that isn’t going to happen and any instances that do federate with Meta will be the part of the Fediverse that exists to billions of people. Those instances will become the dominate instances on the Fediverse for people who want to get away from Meta but still access the Fediverse services. Lemmy, as it stands now, is only a few million people at most. We simply do not have the weight to throw around on this issue.
It is inevitable that commercial interests join the Fediverse and the conversation should be around how we deal with that inevitability rather than attempting to use de-federation as a tool to ‘fix’ every issue.
It still doesn’t change the very basic math of Meta having billions of users and the existing Fediverse, across all services, still numbers in the millions.
A social network is only as strong as the size of a network. If you’re trying to get an average person to join an instance are they going to want to join an instance with access to a few million people or an instance that can contact most of the planet?
Cutting an instance off from the largest userbase of any service on the Internet is suicide for an instance.
There are guaranteed to be instances that do not de-federate with Meta and so users looking to escape Meta will move to those independently owned instances as it allows them to get off of Meta services without losing contact with users and groups that they were previously using.
It is disheartening to see how often de-federation is offered as a solution to any given problem or grievance. This mindset ensures that the network will be an ideologically fragmented mess instead of a single open social network.
I think a lot of the issue is the actual term. Defederation sounds like a lofty thing that we’re inflicting on a server. It’s just a block. Like you block a person or community on this instance, they still can type messages and they’re still on the instance but you can’t see them.
If I’m running an instance then defederation is basically me choosing inserting a user onto your personal block list. You may like a certain type of humor and I think it’s annoying. You may like Popping videos but I find them gross. I can choose, on my own to block those things and my blocking Popping videos or dead baby joke communities is my personal choice.
But if I chose to add those items to YOUR block list then suddenly I’m in the wrong. It isn’t up to me to say you can’t like Popping videos (even if I find them gross) and I can’t tell you that you can’t read those dead baby jokes that you really laugh at (even if I think they’re offensive).
So why even allow a feature like defederation? Because there is some content that we ALL wouldn’t mind having blocked. It’s unanimous that nobody wants spam in their feed no matter their position on Popping videos or dead baby jokes. People don’t want to see CSAM in their feed. Nobody wants to see random private data about people being posted in their feed. In THOSE, very limited, cases then the ability of the instance admin to add an item to your block list is a positive feature. You only need a small group of people (moderators and admins) to detect and block abusive material and their work is shared by every single person on the instance.
Instead we have people who are advocating that we use defederation to impose their personal (or their group’s) viewpoint on every other person on the same instance. This would be like me using my power to block spam instances in order to decide that you can’t watch those Popping videos that you love so much. Suddenly this formerly useful tool is now being by others to curate what you’re allowed to see on social media.
As far as Facebook, I imagine a lot of people would want to see content on Facebook via Lemmy. There will be instances that don’t de-federate and those instances will see most of the user growth because they offer users both Fediverse and Facebook content… any instances that block Facebook will simply have a slightly different Fediverse with less people and less content.
The average user simply doesn’t care about joining the battle against the corporate overlords, they’re looking for the app that lets them see funny videos the easiest. Having all of the motivated ideological users in their own isolated bubble will ensure that Meta’s section of the Fediverse can more easily be taken over by EEE. Meta will be the only developer developing features for the version of ActivityPub that is used in their network and so it will likely be adopted faster. Not having people developing FOSS-versions of ActivityPub extensions, apps and tools that are directly competing with Meta will create friction for people who want to transition away from Meta services and ensure their continued market dominance.
Federate with them, develop better tools and features, and then take their users away. Providing a better social media is how you beat Meta.
TL;DR
Federation isn’t the tool for this kind of ideological splintering and;
Not federating with Meta services will ensure that they get all of the benefit of having an open source protocol without any competition for their userbase.
Don’t you see how that would make e-mail worse for everyone that uses e-mail?
Imagine having an e-mail address but you couldn’t send an e-mail to your friend because for whatever reason your e-mail server decided to not block Gmail. That makes e-mail worse for everyone.
It’s the same here, we’re trying to get away from social media silos and move towards a protocol that lets everyone participate. The kneejerk reaction here is to just create a new silo that has different owners instead of just being part of a network that shares a protocol.
I agree that Meta will attempt to EEE Fediverse. I don’t think that they’re a positive actor in this space at all.
But, the move to defeat them isn’t to try to implement a blockade. There simply isn’t any way to ensure that everyone would comply and the people that don’t block Meta services will have access to billions of more potential users while the instances that do block Meta will find themselves as a backwater part of the Fediverse that the majority of the people on the planet cannot access from their existing social media account.
Right now Lemmy is made up of motivated and ideological people who were willing to leave Reddit because of the way it was being run. Having this group isolated from the networks that Meta is connected to is a positive thing for Meta. You would have all of the people who would be motivated to work against Meta’s interests cut off in an isolated pocket of the Fediverse unable to affect Meta.
Open software doesn’t have the userbase to strong arm Meta in this manner. The way you win is you outrun the Extend portion of the plan by creating software extensions that operate better than what Meta offers and use that to lure users off of Meta’s services. This is made massively easier by them being part of the same federated network. You’re no longer working against the Network Effect… users are unwilling to swap to new platforms because they lose access to their existing friends and content that they follow. This doesn’t happen if your instance is federated with Meta services… users can freely swap if the experience is better.
Yeah, blocking is bad. It’s bad when Google does it and it would be bad if we did it.
I still use XMPP based chat services, Google’s move in this area doesn’t affect me at all because the protocol is open. ActivityPub is the same way… if Meta decides that they’re going to block all non-Meta instances then our instance isn’t affected. But as long as they’re federating with us then their users can freely switch to non-Meta services without losing access to their existing friends and communities. That would not be true if we defederated from Meta.
Beating Meta has to be done by providing a better service, not by taking a tiny percentage of their population and hiding in a bubble on the Fediverse. Meta already has the user base, they’re not worried about losing a few million users (especially ones who’re ideologically motivated to oppose them).
The best move at this point is to stay federated and to rapidly update ActivityPub to provide more features. We have to out-Extend them, we cannot prevent the ‘Embrace’ part of the strategy… the existing Fediverse userbase is too small compared to Meta’s users base.
I’d like to ask for @TheDude to make a server-wide announcement, visible to all members of this instance, that a binding vote about defederation is currently taking place....
Also, having people come in and vote who didn’t take part in the discussion can be problematic as they’ll have a pretty shallow understanding of the topic and the arguments for and against.
I think having an announcement of the [Vote] results along with an invitation for people to check out the Agora would be useful. That way users will enter at the start of the cycle and can have time to read and participate with the discussion during the week.
Exploding-heads.com is another instance on Lemmy where alt-right MAGA types tend to reside. Some people on this server want us to defederate from them immediately, some people want to save defederation as a last resort. They have 104 active users (more stats below)....
Yes, generally in the context of a powerful person or media organization who can reach a massive group of people. The idea is that, if they can reach a large enough group of people then even incredibly rare events, like someone acting on their words, are possible.
First, on behalf of @imaqtpie, @Seraph089 and myself, thank you all for choosing us to help run the community. We’re all really excited about the possibilities of both this instance and of The Agora community. We’re look forward to working with everyone to make this a great community. Feel free to reach out with any concerns...
Does your tally exclude any votes that have already been removed by a moderator?
Why have some non-local votes been removed, while others remain?
We were removing posts of people that were not instance members. However, since users cannot see what the post said, having a [Vote] post full of ‘removed by moderator’ can look like unfair vote manipulation on the moderator’s part and, in addition, it was a lot of work to manually remove each post (the mod tools are… primitive). Instead of removing them we’re just excluding them from the count. Each user’s account has a ‘local’ flag that is checked by a script and if they’re not a local user it doesn’t add their vote to the tally.
Does non-local solely indicate accounts not on this instance, or does it include sock puppets of the same? What is the full list of criteria used to determine this?
Are there any other criteria you are using to exclude votes?
We’re having to check for sock puppet accounts manually at the moment. We have not excluded any local votes. There are not a HUGE amount of suspicious accounts (maybe 3-4 accounts who were created two weeks ago and have no comment or post history except for one vote) so we don’t expect it to affect the final result.
We’ll probably need to have a discussion in the future as to what objective criteria we should use to determine if a person is an active community member in order to prevent any perception of bias.
I’m specifically asking because I’ve been trying to follow along and audit the current vote, but my tally isn’t copacetic with yours. I assume I’m working with imperfect information, so I think it would be worth adding this level of clarity on voting qualifications to the Agora sidebar as well. A true democracy should be well codified; It would be a shame for the disparity to be down to me missing one buried comment somewhere.
The final vote count will likely be done by hand with the script acting as an audit. If the script and the hand count match then we’ll have a bit more confidence in it going forward. It’s a very manual process currently.
I referred to them as a Beehaw user because their posts and profile both indicate that they’ve moved to Beehaw as their primary instance.
Be nicer. Come on. The way you moderate this community will influence the way this entire instance operates. Your rudeness and dismissiveness sets the tone for the entire instance and how people will perceive users with @sh.itjust.works as part of their identity
That’s fair.
However, I don’t believe I was being rude or dismissive.
They changed their display name to 'Leave This Instance’
They announced in their profile that they were leaving the instance and accused the admin team of not acting in good faith.
The body of the post is simply discussing the voting system. We already have a post announcing and discussing changes to the new vote system… creating multiple posts about the same topic only fracture the discussion.
The fact that the user was leaving the instance, encouraging others to leave and also accusing the admins of acting in bad faith doesn’t really mesh with the idea that they’re just a user attempting to have a good faith discussion about the voting system. Instead it reads like a concern troll by a user who wanted to get one last jab in before they left.
The thread is up and available for anyone to read, it’s just locked so that conversation about voting changes will be placed into the correct discussion thread.
Define an executive process for defederation, just as you already have an executive process for moderation. Defederation is part of moderation and 1 month is not a fast turn around for this sort of situation
I think a discussion about defining a policy for de-federation is a great idea and is probably more sustainable than having to have votes on every individual instance. In this case, the issue was fairly contested and had already been submitted for a vote so we used it as the topic of our first week’s voting. That doesn’t mean that all de-federations require a vote. There was another instance that was allowing content that, under Canadian law, is consider child pornography and it was de-federated immediately.
Increase the transparency of the audit scripts you’re using to tally votes by linking a link to a git repo containing the script. I think it’s fair to say that your automated script for what the vote talley is and what someone reading through the vote sees as being the vote results are quite different
It isn’t my script to share and the final count will be done by hand with the script acting as a check. If it is accurate to the hand count then we may depend on it going forward but currently it’s just a way to check the progress.
We didn’t want to have the thread full of comments that only say ‘Remove by moderators’ as that could be construed as vote manipulation since nobody can see the content of the removed messages so we decided to leave the comments and instead wrote a script to check to see if a user is flagged as ‘local’ or not.
The concern that led us to picking a week as the voting period was specifically to ensure that users who could only be active on certain days wouldn’t be left out of the vote. We wouldn’t want someone to be unable to take part simply because they worked on the weekend and couldn’t find the time to participate.
Ideally, I think that we’d want to have things so that we vote on policies and then the policies are implemented by the admin staff. That way there would never be some issue that would be so pressing that it couldn’t wait a week.
It takes a lot of wargaming to see what would work.
If you make it a minimum number of posts then we’ll get users reposting memes or content from other social media websites. If it’s a certain number of comments then a person could use LLM generated comments or, like on Reddit, just steal comments from other threads.
Having a classification system that could look at all user activity and then sorting them into buckets (normal user, possible alt, spam, bot, etc) based on training data would be nice but that’s a very complex project to embark on.
On the other hand just leaving it up to the moderation team to decide what is or isn’t an active user isn’t sustainable either. Who’s to know that we’re not disqualifying people who’re voting against our position or some other shady activities?
It’s a tough problem and definitely one to keep talking about.
I would like to suggest that we consider open sourcing the script, since it is a practical encoding of the instance’s voting bylaws. I’m interested from a purely technical perspective, but I am also of the opinion that open source software is a tool of democratization.
This is imminent. TheDude just wants to track down a few issues and then polish it up before it’s subject to public scrutiny.
This sweet potato looks like a giant decomposing hand (sh.itjust.works)
when you max out, just open another window (lemmy.world)
Random internet people explaining math better then math teacher (i.imgur.com)
What are your most used selfhosted services?
I'd probably have to go with Audiobookshelf and Kavita. Behind those would be Invidous and Immich.
I'm not a doctor, but the blood oxygen and blood pressure readings are some cause for concern! (lemmy.ca)
Found on a generic smartwatch listing on Amazon.
[Discussion] What is our stance on federation with Threads?
I’ve seen a lot of discussion about Threads around the fediverse and I believe our main instance community has had a few large discussions about it (here’s a recent one)....
[Announcement] TheDude has upgraded the server from 0.18.0 to 0.18.1 RC
TheDude recently upgraded the server to the most recent version of Lemmy. You’ll notice significant improvements to the user interface, and hopefully the functionality is also improved. There is no official changelog yet because this version is not yet finalized, but I’ll link the GitHub releases page where it should...
How does this instance feel about this growing pact against federating with Meta? (fedipact.online)
Meta/Instagram launched a new product called Threads today (working title project92). It adds a new interface for creating text posts and replying to them, using your Instagram account. Of note, Meta has stated that Threads plans to support ActivityPub in the future, and allow federation with ActivityPub services. If you...
A plea to @TheDude, please make a server-wide announcement that a defederation vote is happening!
I’d like to ask for @TheDude to make a server-wide announcement, visible to all members of this instance, that a binding vote about defederation is currently taking place....
[Discussion] Should we defederate exploding-heads.com? (Closing arguments)
Exploding-heads.com is another instance on Lemmy where alt-right MAGA types tend to reside. Some people on this server want us to defederate from them immediately, some people want to save defederation as a last resort. They have 104 active users (more stats below)....
[Announcement] [Discussion] Changes for The Agora
First, on behalf of @imaqtpie, @Seraph089 and myself, thank you all for choosing us to help run the community. We’re all really excited about the possibilities of both this instance and of The Agora community. We’re look forward to working with everyone to make this a great community. Feel free to reach out with any concerns...