@pmonks@sfba.social
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

pmonks

@pmonks@sfba.social

Pronouns: he/him/his
Living on Yelamu Ramaytush Ohlone land (#SanFrancisco)
Searchable via https://tootfinder.ch/

All original content licensed CC-BY-NC-SA-4.0.

This is an authoritarian (both left- and right- flavours), bigot, MAGA, TERF, tankie, anti-vaxxer, climate-change-denier etc. free zone. Conservatives and libertarians should be on their best behaviour too - I have a small amount of patience for your nonsense, and a large block button.

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DavidGallagher, to random
@DavidGallagher@sfba.social avatar

Rainbow Falls, Golden Gate Park
Rainbow Falls was completed in May 1930 on the site of a former quarry mined for rock to pave park roads. Chris Pollock in his excellent book says the name comes from colored electric lights that framed it.

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pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@luis_in_brief it’s still there, just hard to see as it’s surrounded by trees @DavidGallagher

QasimRashid, to random
@QasimRashid@mastodon.social avatar

A quick history lesson. From 1940-1980:
•Wealthiest paid 70-94% marginal tax
•0 of them went broke from taxation
•0 of them left USA
•All remained exceedingly wealthy
•Manufacturing boomed
•The middle class was 62% of US economy (It's now 40% post 'trickle down scamenomics)
•We had the strongest middle class growth in US History

Let's do that again. Stop protecting billionaires. Start taxing them.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo I agree that wealth isn’t a fixed-size pie, and that isn’t a point I’m making (or think is especially important). The tendency for wealth to concentrate in the hands of a few if left unchecked, is the point I’m making, along with the demonstrated fact that taxes are one of our best mechanisms to counter this.

I’m also not sure what tax evasion (by anyone) has to do with the original discussion. But let me be clear that I absolutely believe the IRS should be comprehensively funded so that they can go after all tax evaders, whoever they are.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo trickle down economics (which you appear to be describing) does not work. The impact of cutting (or indeed increasing) tax rates over the last century or so has not been shown to have much, if any, correlation with relevant economic indicators (GDP, job creation, income growth, wage growth, etc.).

I try to avoid memes when engaging in serious discussions, but this one nicely summarises what we’re discussing:

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo correction: I did. I mentioned wealth taxes several replies ago. @utterfiction

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo repeatedly calling something “abusive” doesn’t make it so, and I hope this conversation is encouraging you to reconsider that dogma with an open mind. @opendna @QasimRashid

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo that is incorrect. The Dutch also have a progressive income tax system and the first bracket (9.28% tax rate) is from €0 to €35,742. So your example person would pay €45.38 in taxes (in 2023). @opendna @QasimRashid

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo it seems you mixed up the numbers in your post - did you mean €469 (your first number) or €469,000 (your second number)? I used your first number, fwiw.

The second number is clearly for someone wealthy, so a high tax rate is not going to be material for them - they have plenty of income. @opendna

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo also correct, which is why I haven’t said that. Bringing emotive language into this discussion (either way) doesn’t help us each come to a deeper understanding of the topic. @opendna

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo you didn’t use that term, but what you’re describing is indeed trickle down economics.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo you did, here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110269174381291162

First paragraph reads:

“What your missing is these people where wealth concentrates are also the people resonsible for creating much of that same wealth.”

And not to go off on a tangent, but this isn’t even true. ~50% of the jobs in the US are in small businesses, and 2/3 of job growth over the last 25 years has been created by small businesses. They’re the engine of the economy, not the wealthy.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo are you disputing that you wrote that toot, or are you disputing that your statement in that toot (“these people where wealth concentrates are also the people resonsible for creating much of that same wealth.”) describes trickle down economics?

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo the argument that the wealthy predominantly create wealth is literally describing trickle down economics.

You don’t have to take my word for it - for example here’s the top non-ad result I just got on Google for the search “definition of trickle down economics”: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/trickledowntheory.asp

The first paragraph reads:

“Trickle-down economics and its policies employ the theory that tax breaks and benefits for corporations and the wealthy will trickle down and eventually benefit everyone.”

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo again, you did say that, here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/110269174381291162

First paragraph:
“What your missing is these people where wealth concentrates are also the people resonsible for creating much of that same wealth.”

And as I said a few minutes ago, this isn’t even true - small businesses contribute more to the economy (i.e. the creation of wealth) than the wealthy do.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo as others have said elsewhere in this thread, the wealthy largely obtain that wealth by skimming the difference between the value of what their employees produce, and what they pay those employees. That’s not “generating wealth”, it’s exploitation.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo but that said, I think I see where some of the disconnect is coming from. You view “wealth” narrowly as personal property, whereas I view it as one aspect of the overall economy, and where the question of how it is distributed has profound implications for the health of that economy.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo that’s not a very convincing argument you have there.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo so then explain to me how concentrating wealth in a relatively small %age of the population benefits the economy. I’m open to the possibility that I’ve missed an important detail.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo others in this thread already replied to you with those details. I can go back and dig out their bases if you wish but I (perhaps mistakenly) assumed you wouldn’t be that pedantic.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo yet you keep arguing in favour of the wealthy concentrating their wealth. I can only explain this to you; I can’t understand it for you.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo I followed all of those side threads and nowhere did you provide any compelling counter-arguments.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo correct - that’s my point, which I’ve attempted to support with credible evidence.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo then let me paraphrase what I think your position is, you can correct it, and we can continue from there.

My understanding of your position is:

“The wealthy generate much of the wealth in society in a just fashion, should be allowed to retain most or all of that wealth for themselves, and there are no substantial negative societal ramifications of them doing so.”

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo that’s a bit rich, given that you keep confusing who is making which argument.

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo ok I understood it after all, despite your earlier comments to the contrary, or …?

pmonks,
@pmonks@sfba.social avatar

@freemo ah yes I see it now. For some reason some of your replies don’t show up in my notifications - I have to go back and manually walk the thread to see them.

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