Linux does have better codecs and drivers than Windows for some stuff (Bluetooth for example), but it has worse codecs and drivers for some important proprietary hardware stuff (Nvidia for example)
I’m old. I can use stone age computers. The real barrier is the language. If you can’t explain things to me (that knows how to do shit) in terms I’ve heard before, basically nobody outside of power user, niche users, or software engineers will ever try an OS that you have to learn a new language for just to ask a question. Thank you, that is my longest run-on sentence, and I’m a scientist.
Self updating without user interaction per default.
I think that this is a terrible idea, until a clear boundary is set between applications that can or cannot break the system. Updating flatpaks automatically might be fine, but updating everything is simply a recipe for disaster.
Isn’t pre-installed on well known machines by well known brands.
Popular applications (whether productivity, creativity, or games) do not work out of the box that people want. It doesn’t matter that alternatives exist, or that you can use things like Wine. If it’s more than just click the icon, it’s too much.
If things cannot be done purely through touch / the mouse, it is too hard for most people.
Lenovo does sell Linux laptops and then there is the HP Dev One. Also according to Canonical over 160 Dell laptop, desktop, and workstation models ship with Ubuntu preinstalled.
While this is true, if someone goes to a shop and buys a “PC”, it will have Windows 100% of the time.
You have to look to get Linux preinstalled on stuff, or pick the choice yourself. People buying PCs aren’t picking Windows, it’s just what comes with them.
If things cannot be done purely through touch / the mouse, it is too hard for most people.
100%. Even as a power-user (understatement) who overwhelmingly prefers keyboard input to control things when I'm "gettin' stuff done", I will sometimes miss the general consideration level of Windows' input handling when it comes to mouse and especially touch. Mouse is pretty damn good these days on Linux, but touch...
Touch is abysmal. A ton of modern laptops have touchscreens, or are actually 2-in-1s that fold into tablets, etc, and the support is just barely there, if at all. I'm not talking about driver support - this is often fairly acceptable. My laptop's touch and pen interface worked right out of the box... technically. But KDE Plasma 5 with Wayland- an allegedly very modern desktop stack- is not pleasant when I fold into tablet mode.
The sole (seriously, I've looked) Wayland on-screen-keyboard, Maliit, is just terrible. No settings of any kind (there is a settings button! it is not wired to anything, it does nothing), no language options, no layout options (the default layout is abysmal and lacks any 'functional' keys like arrows, pgup/dn, home/end, delete, F keys, tab, etc), and most egregiously, it resists being manually summoned which is terrible because it does not summon itself at appropriate times. Firefox is invisible to it. KRunner is invisible to it. The application search bar is invisible to it. It will happily pop up when I tap into Konsole, but it's totally useless as it is completely devoid of vital keys. Touch on Wayland is absolutely pointless.
Of course, there is a diverse ecosystem of virtual keyboards and such on Xorg! However, Xorg performance across all applications is typically abysmal (below 1FPS) if the screen is rotated at all. This is evidently a well known issue that I doubt will ever be fixed.
In the spirit of Open Source Software, and knowing that simply complaining loudly has little benefit for anyone, I have at several times channeled my frustration towards developing a reasonable Wayland virtual keyboard, but it's a daunting project fraught with serious problems and I have little free-time, so it's barely left its infancy in my dev folder, and in the meanwhile I reluctantly just flip my keyboard back around on the couch with a sigh, briefly envious of my friend's extremely-touch-capable Windows 2-in-1.
I have been tempted by GNOME several times, but I disagree with some of their design choices and find them a bit frustrating. I feel that it's fairly strongly-opinionated software. The benefits, of course, are obvious: internal consistency that leads to a higher quality experience. But, only if you buy-in to some overarching design philosophy. That's one of the reasons I left Windows! I also have a suite of Kwin scripts that make my life a lot easier, so it's pretty hard to leave Plasma at this point.
Still, that keyboard has tempted me a lot nonetheless...
Me too. I love the look of Adwaita, but some of their choices I can’t get past, like not having a system tray. I’m really excited for Cosmic, it looks like it will blend the styling of GNOME with much of KDE’s customization!
At this point I'm just glad I migrated to GNU/Linux way before touch input was a common thing. I never experienced it on Windows and the only way I experienced it on GNU/Linux is with it behaving like simple mouse clicks. I literally have no idea what else to expect, so I expect nothing and I don't get disappointed.
Using touch on Windows has definitely set my expectations much higher than the reality on Linux right now, so this is a good call! You won't know what you're missing, so it's not going to bug you. I kind of wish I could return to this blissful ignorance. I have another 2-in-1 with Windows 11 on it in the house and anytime I look at it to keep it patched up and fix issues for its user, it reminds me very effectively of how far behind my 2-in-1 is with touchscreen interactions :(
I echo your frustrations with Maalit. I am running Arch on my Surface Pro 7 and very frequently I have to snap in the keyboard just to get myself out of a situation where touch doesn’t work. Maalit also has this bug where it will push and resize windows as if it was visible even though it is hidden.
Regarding the Firefox issue, it helps if you enable it’s Wayland backend by passing MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 to it. Maalit should properly pop whenever you tap on a text box.
Thank you - I was already aware of this, actually, but I choose to leave it disabled because when this is set, touchscreen drag-scrolling of webpages breaks and it selects text as though it were a mouse click-drag instead. As it turns out, I barely use Maliit anyway because of its other deficiencies, but I definitely touch-scroll my browser a lot, even in laptop mode. A generally disappointing dilemma!
Weird! Touch scrolling actually improves for me with the Wayland backend so that’s an odd issue indeed! There’s gotta be a trick to it, but I am unsure of what that is at the moment.
I also had this problem where touch scrolling on Firefox selects text instead (on ubuntu). It does however work OOTB for me on fedora, so it’s the main distro on that machine.
I agree with the touchscreen thing-- I have one of those foldy-aroundy 2-in-1 laptops, and the only way I’ve been able to get touch to work properly (as in not like a mouse) is gnome wayland. Kde wayland’s fine too, but like you said there’s no included keyboard whereas gnome has one built-in. Also another wayland osk you could try is wvkbd (tho I’ve never used it beyond “hey what’s this”).
So you want them to provide answers by using magic? If you seek support for any software, open source or otherwise, you’ll need to tell them version, build number etc. Why do you think Linux will be any different?
Because people can already barely provide this level of information for a Windows device. Most of these words look like technobabble to non-tech-enthusiasts
Of course the words will be different. They aren’t hard words. And they can be answered very easily. In fact, most forums ask to include an output of something like inxi -Fazy with every question, thus eliminating the need for all of these things.
For more niche problems, people might ask for more specific information. But most of the time, they’ll tell you exactly what to run to get that information.
You know what’s the Windows alternative for this? Most of the time, nothing. You need to reinstall Windows. Mac is similar, except you need to have it replaced. You actually CAN repair Linux. That’s the difference.
Why don’t you magically have a magic button that magically fixes everything with no effort of my own? That’s stupid, I think I will go on social media and repeatedly tell everyone that Linux is bad actually
That would be me: My hardware at the time was crap so I couldn’t use the usual mint, ubuntu, etc and I was gonna use debian but I couldn’t find the x86 download button, so after a bunch of messing about with distros like puppy and #!++, I settled on alpine for a bit. I now have decent hardware and use fedora.
At this point, my biggest dream is that these ‘new user’ distros used only Wayland, Pipewire, Systemd and Flatpaks simply to simplify things. Hopefully we’re less than 2024 away from NoVideo Wayland support.
Also as soon as XFCE releases their Wayland support, that soon it’ll become the most famous DE choice of Mint.
What I am really happy is to see how well supported Pipewire already is. Pipewire has never showed any problem in the new installs for me.
Fridge art. Fuck, they MAYBE have nfsroot working. MAYBE. After a decade of fucking around, when it was available for ages. The number of bags on the side of lennart’s piece of crap, just to reinvent the wheels we had before, is absolutely ridiculous.
and Flatpaks
… break single source of truth for as-built information and current software manifest. This kills validation, which dissolves certainty on consistency, then repeatability. And given the state of the software load exported to management tools is NOT the flatpak source of truth, you now have a false negative on the ‘installation’ of a flatpak resource when checking it via management.
Gonna be honest with you I’m an intermediate user and understood jack shit of what you just said. A beginner and average user would have probably been scared off by Linux by this point rewding this.
If I understood the funny words magic man correctly, he is complaining that flatpaks don’t come from a single trusted source and may become a vector for malware, unlike official distro repositories. Still, that was a very technobabble way of saying it.
That’s what I’m using now, and it’s what I’d recommend for most desktop users. I’ve been using Linux systems on-and-off since before kernel version 1.0: Slackware, then Debian, then Ubuntu, then Mint, then Pop.
(Admittedly, my use cases are pretty simple: a terminal, a browser, Signal, VLC, and Steam.)
Yes, that pop os. As luck would have it, Linus installed it during a very brief period where the steam package in their repo was broken. This is not a common occurrence, and I have never heard of it happening before or since.
pipewire seems ready for primetime but I’m more dubious about Wayland. For instance KDE appears to still be a bit flaky and sway still works poorly under Nvidia and will never have proper mixed DPI for xwayland apps. Still seems like a tradeoff vs X which doesn’t require a compromise. XFCE is roughly 10% of Mint users. Mint users are unlikely to switch because of wayland support
The problem with that is most major distros market themselves as “new user” distros to some extent though. Noob-friendly, out-of-the-box, easy, etc are all distro-marketing buzz-words that mean nothing.
You can’t expect them to only use Wayland, Pipewire, Systemd, and Flatpaks because that dream requires every distro to use Wayland, Pipewire, Systemd, and Flatpaks, which will never be reality.
Most distros will probably eventually adopt these tools, but there won’t be a sudden shift. It will be gradual.
Well, for Pipewire it’s the apps which needs to adjust at this point. Only thing missing currently is the Wayland but it’s coming. Making Linux less fragmented (read: confusing), the more new users will give a try.
Doing tech support, I encountered this attitude. People like that are nearly impossible to help. “Why can’t you just fix it!” The true answer never given is that your problem is probably something stupid you are doing, like trying to make a phone call by physically shoving the phone entirely up your asshole, and until I run through some common problems and ask some questions, I won’t be able to tell you to have your significant other get the salad tongs and pull it out of your rear and then go over “dialing.”
People mostly need to be willing to gather detailed system info with Inxi and share it.
No. That’s the support job to figure out the problem of the user. It is not the user’s job to figure out the support problems.
I work in support, so I know what I’m talking about. Unfortunately most computer guys are elitist assholes who can’t understand a user doesn’t have their knowledge or even the will to understand why this shitty tech is not working.
Free open source software projects you don’t pay for don’t have paid support. If you talk to a fellow user it IS your job to figure out your problem. if you don’t have the will to understand anything you ought to buy a support contract.
I don’t disagree with you, but to answer OP’s question, I think this right here is the problem. I love Linux for the same reason I love building my own PCs and working on my own car. For most people that don’t want to tinker, though, they’re looking for something that “just works” and can be fixed by someone else when it breaks.
It’s such a privileged attitude, though. One CAN get paid support, but they don’t need it if they’re just a bit patient and willing to follow instructions. If you don’t want to pay, don’t expect someone else to deal with your bullshit.
(I’m not saying this to you, but to anyone who has this attitude.)
It case the subject wasn’t entirely clear in my prior post I agree with you, and that is exactly what I was trying to say. You the user of a foss project, aren’t a customer unless you give someone money. It IS your job to figure out your own issues. If you ask for help from your fellow users and they graciously provide you help then this is a gift you should appreciate. Because the person isn’t an expert on that topic in the employ of the creator, they might not know everything, nor do they have the infinite patience imparted by being paid by the hour to provide you help. They have their own shit to do. Treating them with entitlement and contempt like people treat support will burn these sorts of folks out, and they are far from an infinite resource. If you want a paid support relationship instead of treating the open source community as free help whose time you are entitled to, you ought to actually pay someone to do that job.
Maybe it needs a rebranding. If people have heard of linux, they think it’s for devs, IT nerds, too complicated, etc. Most of the people just have never heard of linux because they don’t look out for it. Most people don’t know what FOSS is, etc. People just don’t know that their OS is spying on them. Chromeos is linux, it’s in every store. Linux made it. Gnu didn’t.
It’s still software support. Yes, there are many great alternatives, but not being able to use apps like everyone and not being aplble to keep the apps you have is just too complicated for many
I come from a Windows and Mac environment and I now happily use Linux Mint. It has a similar aesthetic and is really easy to use. I think not recommending newbies Arch would be a good start.
I agree. Zorin OS is another good option, if people accept the fact that new users don’t care about snaps vs flatpaks. And Zorin OS Pro helps the distro maintainers put food on the table. BTW, its been too long of a wait for Zorin Grid
Linux is the coolest fucking OS, hands down… If you’re a computer nerd. Otherwise it’s inconvenient at the best of times. Many users click around in their OS of choice without fully understanding what they’re doing, myself included. Try this in Linux and you’re in for a really bad time.
It breaks. And I cant imagine anyone who wants to spend time fixing it, much less how long it would take tech illiterate people. Cant explain how many times ive gotten some random error downloding a package, and even ill have a hard time finding what tf the cryptic error message means
That and permissions, though they could be lumped into the first point
Do you think just restarting with no information would be better? I could understand that cryptic error Message could scare some people, so do you think a “blue screen” and restart would be better for the average person?
If the device can self repair behind the scenes, 100% most users couldnt care less about an error message or having to reboot, as long as not too often and requiring too much input. I can see why linux is excellent for servers requiring little to no downtime though
I remember recently there was something where a fairly low level system dependency was having trouble installing during a system upgrade, but only until partway through the install. It caused chaos on my system that took a good week to resolve. I can’t imagine that 99% of people have the skill or patience to go through that process.
That said, that particular problem may be solved by the new generation of distros that allow for rollback of system changes.
The biggest issue ive had (ive only used ubuntu) is the file management. Disks and file system is a bit different from boyh mac and windows, and i had a hard yime figuring out where and how, etc.
I couldnt figure out how to get my home network to work (so my windows pc could grab files off the linux pc) and such.
I had no issues setting that up, between my mac/windows pcs
I do plan on installing linux for my sons pc which he will then be forced to learn to some degree.
I think you just made another point why Linux is difficult to adopt to for non-tech people. It takes a level of understanding about how computers work in general, and operating systems specifically, that that majority of people just do not care to have. It’s not that people are too stupid or anything like that. It’s just that the majority of people absolutely do not care what a Desktop Manager is, or why and how it’s different from the OS itself.
Well… people like you and me care because we think it’s interesting. We are the exception. The very thing we love most about Linux is the thing that stops it from general acceptance. It’s too flexible to “Just Work”.
For file sharing over a network between Linux and Windows, the keywords are “samba” and “cifs”. In my experience, that’s variable levels of pain in the ass to set up, but does work once you’ve got it configured. (Sometimes it’s easier to run an sftp server or similar on the Linux machine.)
Funding. Nobody has figured out how to fund development for large open source OSes outside of the enterprise realm. You crack that, you can have linux be installed by default on Desktop/Laptop computers, and patches that come as a result of that funding benefit the rest of the ecosystem as well. People will use the default, they will complain about it, just like they complain about Windows Update randomly restarting their computer, but they’ll use it.
But also the share of people who own laptops or desktops continues to dwindle. Many people don’t have and see no need for a computer. So they run Android, which is Linux, so I guess we’re winning there?
I personally dont understand why mass adoption is a goal.
The “challenge” to bring users to Linux is simply making them want to use Linux. There are enough flavours and guides ranging from plug and play that anyone can use to build your own kernel and distro from scratch that anyone can find what they want in Linux… if they want it.
The truth is that for a not insignificant portion of computer users, the OS is a means to an end not a feature. Its “the computer”. A laptop that comes with windows 11 is a windows 11 machine.
If you want the average user to move to Linux, create an desktop environment with the option to look and behave like either windows or Mac, have a software compatibility layer for both that can run at the same time, buy a hardware company and include the distro as default and sell it to the masses at a loss to undercut all other options. Flood all consumer electronics stores with them.
Outside that, its not going to happen and I dont know why people want to make a competition out of it. Linux doesnt suit everyone and it doesnt have to. We see less GUIs as a good thing, id rather dev time from the solo/small dev teams go towards the functionality not making it look pretty. The majority of computer users dont agree with that though, and thats fine. I like being able to add/remove from my OS, most don’t and thats fine too. I like rolling updates, the uproar around windows updates with thousands of youtube videos dedicated to people stopping them indefinitely indicates many others dont. Our semi annual O365 update is currently rolling out at work, and people are freaking out that one of their outlook toolbars moved. Never mind its a 4 second fix to move it back, but can you imagine these people seeking out/installing/configuring/using a new desktop environment?
Its not an elitist thing. Id love more of my friends to use linux, but I cant make them want to use something. It either appeals to them or it doesnt. For most the appeal of a computer is the software it runs, and the OS is just a means for that.
I personally dont understand why mass adoption is a goal.
Oh this one is easy. The higher market share the better software support they get.
And as a secondary bonus, the more people use it the more people contribute to it and make it even better. But mostly this one is just an extension of the first point.
Bugs. People that are into linux have enough compium and often the expertise to fix broken stuff that otherwise would work on windows. Your average user will quit after too many things don’t work out of the box.
This is sadly true for so much software, not just Linux but also many Linux application packages and self-hosting packages.
I tried to install Nextcloud yesterday, and failed at three completely different attempts/guides/packages. Same thing happened a year ago. Maybe I’ll try again in a year.
@Maticzpl Tbf my Windows OS makes me perform a bizarre ritual to just get my headphones to connect each time. Windows has as many bugs as Ubuntu at least.
I also have known people that were non technical that had way worse a time getting drivers to work on Windows than on Linux.
Real issue is software support. A lot of the big closed source stuff only wants to run on Windows whereas most open source stuff is fine working on everything.
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