@selzero people who believe that the God they worship literally WAS a #Palestinian#refugee, who fled from Judea via #Gaza into Egypt to escape persecutors who were massacring children, and yet who look at the current #massacre of Palestinian children in Gaza and think "hell yes! Let's give #Israel more weapons."
@simon_brooke@selzero
Iudea became Palestina roughly 100 years after the death of Jesus. At the time, the name "Palestina" referred to the southern coastal area (e.g. Gaza). So he wasn't.
And therefore noone can claim that the Palestinians killed Jesus.
@tzafrir@selzero I t didn't "become" it, it had been Palestine (with variant spellings) for at least seven hundred years. To quote from the Ancient Jewish History website:
"The Philistines inhabited the Mediterranean coast of Canaan during the period of the Book of Judges. They founded five principalities - Gaza, Asheklon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath."
@simon_brooke The region was named Palestine by the Romans after the Bar Kokhba revolts around 135AD. Before then it was known as Judea to the Romans occupiers and Jews (Yehuda / Judeans).
The revolt had not happened when Jesus was around, as evidenced by the presence of Jews in Jerusalem.
Only Assyrians might have said Jesus was a Filistine or Palestinian.
@lukevanin@selzero the region was called Palestine from at least 600 BC (it's the same word as Philistine). The name first appears in the Bible in Exodus 14:14. Judea was founded within , but was only part of, Palestine.
@simon_brooke As the article indicates that "Palestine" was used by other people to refer to the area now known as the Gaza Strip - it wasn't used by Jews to refer to Eretz Yisrael.
Jesus was a circumcised Jew and would likely have referred to himself as Judean.
The governing authority also didn't refer to the area as Palestine until later.
Given there were no universally agreed on names or borders, areas were mostly defined by geographical landmarks and local conventions.
@lukevanin@selzero who were the Philistines, Luke? Where do they first appear in your copy of the Talmud? Where did they settle? What were the five provinces they established? Where is Judea?
@simon_brooke "Scholars believe the Philistines were made up of people of an Aegean background that from roughly 1200 BC onwards settled in the area and mixed with the local Canaanite population, and came to be known as Peleset, or Philistines"
"Nebuchadnezzar II invaded Philistia in 604 BC"
"Philistia and its native population the Philistines disappear from the historic record after that year."
@lukevanin@selzero I don't call myself British. I call myself Scots. But Scotland is part of Britain, so if someone called me British, they wouldn't be wrong.
If you want to say Jesus was a Philistine because Philistia was somewhere in the vicinity, then it's like saying you're Irish because Ireland is somewhere nearby.
If the Irish take over sometime after you die and rename Britain to Ireland, you still wouldn't have been Irish.
In the modern era yes Palestine referred to a large area encompassing Israel and Jordan. At the time of Jesus, Philistia was just the area of the Gaza strip.
@selzero@lukevanin no, seriously, to a large extent they're not. The Angles, when they settled East Anglia, did enslave some of the previous Brythonic population, but as I understand it it was pretty much ethnic cleansing. The Britons were pushed west, and the Angles replaced them.
I acknowledge these things are never perfectly one thing or the other, but I think in this case they're not just the same people with a new name.
@selzero Yes let’s debate all of human history so that you can maintain your original point of view. Never heard of an analogy?
Call Jesus Palestinian if you like, but that’s not going to improve your understanding of why some people who read the christian bible also support Jews and Israel. You’ll forever be perplexed by the apparent contradiction.
I can only lead you to the facts - I can’t think for you.
@lukevanin@selzero well, for example , there's the fact that the majority of the classical population of Judea never left it. A minority left as economic migrants, and another minority left as political exiles; but the majority stayed right where they were, and left their homes and olive trees to their children, who left them to theirs, and so on until the Israeli army bulldozers came along and destroyed them.
@simon_brooke I totally forgot about this fact which proves Jesus was Palestinian.
But yes let's change the subject by all means. We'll just overlook 120 years of conflict, and centuries of imperialism.
Peaceful native bedouins were simply watering their olive trees when an evil Israeli bulldozer appeared out of nowhere for reasons unknown and flattened them.
They cried out "الله أكبر" in Canaanite, as they fired their AK-47s harmlessly into the air in frustration.
@simon_brooke "The Roman Empire conquered the region and in 6 CE established the province known as Judaea, then in 132 CE in the period of the Bar Kokhba revolt the province was expanded and renamed Syria Palaestina."
@lukevanin@selzero so they reused an existing name. Strathclyde Region was created in 1975 CE, while the last King of Strathclyde, Màel Coluim, died before 1070 CE. There's no contradiction between these facts.
@selzero If you're taking the literal interpretation of Exodus, Israelites were returning to their homeland of Canaan after a period of slavery in Egypt. By that time it populated by Filistines, who were settlers from Malta.
This is more analogous to native Americans invading North America and kicking out the European settlers - and less like Somalians invading New York and demanding jobs.
There’s no archeological evidence that anyone should take exodus literally. The Philistines’ ancestors were originally from the Aegean, not Malta, and were settled there by the Egyptian state at the end of the Bronze Age, centuries earlier, where they developed an autochthonous society that would not at all be analogous to European settlement of North America at the expense of indigenous societies.
"But you can’t treat religion as a sort of buffet, can you? I mean, you can’t say yes please, I’ll have some of the Celestial Paradise and a helping of the Divine Plan but go easy on the kneeling and none of the Prohibition of Images, they give me wind. Its table d´hôte or nothing, otherwise…well, it would be silly."
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