Lemmy is a worse platform for women than Reddit was

(Content warning, discussions of SA and misogyny, mods I might mention politics a bit but I hope this can be taken outside the context of politics and understood as a discussion of basic human decency)

We all know how awful Reddit was when a user mentioned their gender. Immediate harassment, DMs, etc. It’s probably improved over the years? But still awful.

Until recently, Lemmy was the most progressive and supportive of basic human dignity of communities I had ever followed. I have always known this was a majority male platform, but I have been relatively pleased to see that positive expressions of masculinity have won out.

All of that changed with the recent “bear vs man” debacle. I saw women get shouted down just for expressing their stories of being sexually abused, repeatedly harassed, dogpiled, and brigaded with downvotes. Some of them held their ground, for which I am proud of them, but others I saw driven to delete their entire accounts, presumably not to return.

And I get it. The bear thing is controversial; we can all agree on this. But that should never have resulted in this level of toxicity!

I am hoping by making this post I can kind of bring awareness to this weakness, so that we can learn and grow as a community. We need to hold one another accountable for this, or the gender gap on this site is just going to get worse.

audiomodder,

The irony is that the poor behavior explains why many women would pick the bear

Mouselemming,

Another irony is that the most dangerous bear to come face to face with is the sweet little baby bear.

modifier,

Is that true?

AnalogyAddict,

Sweet babies have cranky mamas.

Mouselemming,

If you’re face to face with baby, Mama’s behind you, and she considers you a threat to her toddler.

TheDoozer,

Most bears try to avoid you. The best thing you can do on a nature trail is be noisy, talk a bunch, make sure the bear knows you are there. Because they don’t want anything to do with humans.

The second worst thing you can do is surprise a bear.

The worst thing you can do is get between a baby bear and its mom.

ZeroGravitas,

Baby bears are bad news.

independent.co.uk/…/british-tourist-bear-romania-…

Jax,

Hmm, I’m starting to think maybe I should start acting more like a bear

foggy,

Yeah, it’s like… The fact that it’s controversial is why it’s controversial.

You’re either willfully ignorant or you understand to some degree where the controversy is (even if you don’t necessarily in your heart agree that bear is better), and can concede that there’s maybe a problem with what humanity calls “masculine.”

And if you’re willfully ignorant, then, that’s why some people say bear. And it’s also a canary in the coalmine example of this form of dangerous masculinity.

spujb,

you are correct and i appreciate your comment except for

willfully

i have in fact seen some men come around. it takes some patience but it happens. :) sometimes men are young or literally just so ill exposed to feminist theory (or even femininity) that they just don’t get it on their own

Jax,

I understand perfectly what you think the point is.

What I’ve observed is that it’s a divisive meme, and not in a good way. This has only served to egender the “kill all men” and “I hate women” crowds into their respective corners.

You are being willfully ignorant by not acknowledging that.

foggy,

ohhhhhhhhhh shit!

Got em with the “no u”

yo no seriously I’m sure people will take you seriously though nice job with that one.

Jax,

Ah, a reductionist argument from one of the trogs. What a surprise!

foggy,

Yo 2 for 2 keep it going homie

Clent,

I don’t know that I would classify it as irony because the toxic male’s response is very predictable. It’s closer to a paradox. If men could universally accept women choosing the bear then would women still choose the bear?

At the surface, the strongly negative male reaction appears as a subset for why the bear is chosen but upon further exploration it reveals itself as the ultimate example for why the bear is preferred; many men cannot accept female agency.

At the same time the question reveals the rawest example of toxic masculinity. Despite the toxic males perspective that unlike women, they are not highly emotional creatures, the reality they present of themselves is they are not only highly emotional but are unable or unwilling to control their emotions.

redisdead,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Seleni,

    Exhibit A, right here.

    redisdead,

    Exhibit B, right there.

    Psychodelic,

    Nah, you definitely seem like you’re in full control of your emotions.

    Keep up the good fight against any modicum of self-awareness!

    redisdead,

    Definitely in better control of my emotions than the constant stream of crybabies mad at me because I was born with a cock.

    CTDummy, (edited )

    The bear scenario is the perfect division inducing shitstorm.

    It’s understandable what the memes portrays the danger that women face, daily. The fact that they frequently don’t feel comfortable or even just basic safety is definitely valid and worth discussion.

    However, the bear vs man thing was just the worst vehicle to induce that discussion. On one side men who may not be the most well informed about women issues; will get immediately defensive at being compared to a large animal known for tearing people apart and eating them alive.

    The members of the other side who see all the angry men getting defensive at them for expressing this view and think it’s purely because they aren’t empathetic to these issue, they “hate” women or they’re marginalising what is a real and daily danger.

    Of course there are actual trolls, toxic arseholes and people who have 0 interest actual discourse or understanding but fuck them, I agree ban em.

    It was never going to end in a productive, calm or rational discussion and frankly I think tarring the entire of lemmy for it is equally as unproductive. I’ve seen plenty of people initially aggressive to the meme, come around. I’ve seen more and more people make light jokes about the same meme without the accusatory tone. If you want discourse theres space to do so; it just has to be done better(imo). Preferably without snark or accusatory tones.

    Cylusthevirus,
    Cylusthevirus avatar

    On one side men who may not be the most well informed about women issues; will get immediately defensive at being compared to a large animal known for tearing people apart and eating them alive.

    Nah. Defensiveness in this context is a red flag because it is transparently obvious why a woman would choose the bear. It needn't be a strictly rational choice; it's a vote of no confidence in men earned through lived experience. The fact that it's even a question should be a seen by men as deeply sad: a reminder of the work that must still be done. The very act of trying to convince a woman of the error of her choice is a sign of a failure to understand the nature of the problem, the exercise, or both.

    large animal known for tearing people apart and eating them alive

    This is by no means what bears are known for. Black bears will frighten off easily. Brown bears are dangerous, yes, but much depends on the nature of the encounter.

    It was never going to end in a productive, calm or rational discussion

    It already has, but thanks for the self report?

    spujb,

    Yeah at this point I don’t care about the bear thing. So two weeks ago. I do however care about the abject harrassment that happened. Thank you for your perspective.

    CTDummy,

    Sure. However, the two aren’t unrelated. Not that it justifies the harassment you’ve seen (which as mentioned mods are pretty solid on most instances but reports help them a lot). Given what shitshow it turned into it’s clear that more conversations around the topic are needed. I think those type of people will still pop their head up. When they do, if the entire conversation isn’t already a shitfight because of how it was initiated, these type will be easier to identify and ban. Focusing solely on the outcome and ignoring how we got here only ensures it will be repeated. Lemmy is growing still, there will be challenges on the way.

    spujb,

    I definitely hope the bear thing isn’t the last time SA is discussed on Lemmy. With such a male heavy population, it’s honestly a tremendous opportunity to expose a huge chunk of men to basic feminist theory. Fight the good fight homie 💖

    ccunning,

    On one side men who may not be the most well informed about women issues; will get immediately defensive at being compared to a large animal known for tearing people apart and eating them alive.

    I don’t think I’ll ever understand this reaction. I can only assume it’s stupidity leading these people to think all men are being accused of this.

    xigoi, (edited )
    @xigoi@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    Because all men are literally being accused of this. With phrases like “I’d rather be killed by a bear than encounter an average man because at least the bear won’t rape me”.

    obviouspornalt,

    Well, all men are being accused of this. Rightfully so. From my point of view, the scenario illustrates that a woman has to consider a man that she doesn’t know to be at least as dangerous to her own personal safety as a bear and act accordingly. Even men she knows well may still attack her.

    Statistically, the odds of being attacked in any particular scenario may be small, but they’re definitely not zero. Similar to encountering a bear. Bear spray is a deterrent in both scenarios.

    beardown,

    Well, all Muslims are being accused of this. Rightfully so. From my point of view, the scenario illustrates that a Jewish person has to consider a Muslim that she doesn’t know to be at least as dangerous to her own personal safety as a bear and act accordingly. Even Muslims she knows well may still attack her.

    See the issue? Dehumanization and prejudice on the basis of immutable traits is wrong - both factually and morally

    obviouspornalt,

    Not sure what your point is, men of any ethnicity attack and rape women.

    beardown,

    And men of color and immigrants are disproportionately killed and treated like animals for it

    obviouspornalt,

    Minorites are mistreated for sure. And sexual assault is just one of many excuses given for that mistreatment. Emmitt Till was falsely accused and brutally murdered. That doesn’t change the fact that women are assaulted by men even within their own ethnicity and social stratus.

    I’m assuming that your point is that there ought to be a consistent and fair application of justice for perpetrators of assault, but you seem to be getting away from the point of this thread.

    beardown, (edited )

    The point is that dehumanizing men will have a disproportionate impact on working class men of color and immigrants. Which are groups that are already seen as animalistic and inherently dangerous. Hence the drastically elevated rates of state sanctioned murder of black men, for instance.

    When we dehumanize men, the impact on wealthy white men in gated suburban communities is minimal. However the impact on working class men of color from vulnerable populations is significant. The impact on national minority groups is significant.

    Which means this “meme” is a dogwhistle. It is barely disguised hate speech that amplifies violence against already persecuted groups by perpetuating the notion that these “animalistic” peoples are more dangerous than wild animals.

    This is the same thing Trump does when he calls immigrants rapists and murderers who are poisoning the blood of America. Except this meme isn’t dumb enough to specifically talk about Mexican men - instead, it is making the same point implicitly.

    This attitude will perpetuate the culture of violence that targets national minority groups who are already othered. It isn’t funny or cute. It’s a rightwing dogwhistle and it’s dangerous

    obviouspornalt,

    Being at risk of being attacked by a sexual predator is neither funny nor cute.

    The right-wing has never been an advocate for protecting women, so the leap you’ve made here is rather spectacular.

    beardown,

    Nothing about this has anything to do with protecting women.

    It is about using the perceived fragility and patriarchal ownership mentality associated with “our” women to justify increases in crackdowns on men of color and immigrants.

    This is just white tears causing black scars all over again. Except this time it’s an astroturfed campaign by fascists to maintain and increase societal fear of men who are Other

    Being at risk of being attacked by a sexual predator is neither funny nor cute.

    No idea what this is referencing. But I agree that there is nothing cute about fascistic dogwhistles

    Seleni,

    Okay, but, speaking as a woman, we try to explain these issues nicely, with gentle terminology and a big helping of ‘not all of you, but some of you…’ and we get ignored, dismissed, belittled, or flat-out gaslit.

    So, we try going for the shock value to get you to at least pay attention instead of dismissing what we say as background noise or ‘us silly little women worrying our silly little heads over nothing’. And then we get told we can’t talk like that, that it’s insulting, that no man would listen because we’re belittling them, that it ‘doesn’t foster discussion’.

    Although at least you heard us say something so many of us take it as a small win…

    So, honest question. How do we explain it to you, so we don’t offend you, but you actually hear us? Actually get an idea of what it means to be afraid of footsteps behind us when we go out at night? To get leered at when all we’re trying to do is get a good workout at the gym? To have men just take liberties, like touching us, grabbing us? To not want to mention that we are a woman online, especially in gaming circles, because of the sexist bullshit and dismissive attitudes that will inevitably show up and run us out of a group we just want to be in because we like the game, damnit?

    To weigh the decision to even make a post like this, because I know it will be brigaded and will attract sexist jerks who will try to shout me down? Or even attract stalkers who will follow me across instances to harass me?

    Please, tell me how. Because we want you to understand. We don’t want to chase people away from discussions. But it’s so hard, and gets so discouraging…

    SuddenDownpour,

    When you’re arguing on an online space large enough for a position that doesn’t yet have overwhelming support, you’re always going to get some pushback of some kind. It’s never going to be completely pleasant. The silver lining is that, if you’re arguing for your positions well enough, you’re going to bring some more people to your side each time. Many of them will not be vocal, many of them will have to meditate of what you’ve said, for many of them it will just be a fleeting thought, but it might be a stepping stone that leads them to actually change their mind in a later discussion. I have this mindset because it’s coherent with how I’ve changed my mind over the years after engaging with different people, and so, when I’m advocating for something on a space that isn’t overwhelmingly welcoming (which might usually be autism advocacy, anti-capitalism, secularism, depending on the site), and I’m in a tempered mood at the moment, I immediately assume that I’m going to get pushback even on things that I’m objectively correct, but that doesn’t mean I’m not making useful progress, so I should argue with more charitability than I think the other person deserves.

    On the gender issues topic specifically. Discounting a minority of people whom you’re never going to make see reason, your goal is to make your positions understandable to the men who either don’t have a strong opinion yet or are only mildly hostile. I’m going to use the example of an user I saw the other day out of memory: picture a man who has had an aggressively mediocre life: few meaningful relationships if any, no romantic or sexual partners, hating his job or whatever it is he’s studying, he hasn’t (or hasn’t seen himself having) acted particularly mean towards anyone in his life but he has particularly vivid memories of women or girls provoking him pain (be they a rude teacher, an abusive mother, high school bullies, or whatever). Now picture him reading these two messages:

    (…) Life feels very unsafe to me. I have been catcalled, had my opinions dismissed and driven out of spaces I wanted to be in ever since my teens, (…) There are always some men who make the world a dangerous place for me.

    and

    (…) Life feels very unsafe to me. I have been catcalled, had my opinions dismissed and driven out of spaces I wanted to be in ever since my teens, (…) Men make the world a dangerous place for me.

    I’ve made the nuance very obvious here, but it will usually be far more subtle. Sometimes it will be someone not making their position as fair and impartial as possible, sometimes it’ll be that they literally do not realize their words might be misinterpreted, but a good chunk of the individual shitshows I’ve seen in the past few days here are easily understandable if I picture someone saying: “I’ve been a sad shit for my whole life without harming anyone, and if anything, I’ve been treated unfairly. And now you’re telling me I’m the culprit!?”, and the difficulties of this guy through his life might have been several degrees less severe than your own, but if he’s misunderstood what you’re saying, or the message he’s read is less charitable, or if the person he’s just read has been perfectly reasonable, but five minutes ago he’s read a different message from someone else who hasn’t been, which twists the context, he isn’t entirely wrong, because he was minding his own business but now he feels accusations fall upon him out of nowhere.

    On the bear argument specifically. Ignore the goddamn bear. You can make a lot of good arguments about why choosing the bear is wrong, and this derails PLENTY of discussions that could otherwise be useful and meaningful into a stunlock where one side wants to argue about why some people choose one way, and the other about the specific hypothetical. Don’t go into “(…) and that’s why I’d choose the bear”, ignore the metaphor, redirect the conversation in an useful direction, such as the actual living experiences of women, what kind of society would you want to see and what kind of specific changes would you like to see people make.

    This advocacy is almost never going to be completely pleasant. This isn’t a justification, or discouragement, it’s just acknowledgement of the fact that plenty of people are going to be predisposed against your position, or skeptical, or outright hostile, and you personally are not going to see the fruits of your own, individual, specific labour, because whatever useful progress you make will be brewing on the background. Plenty of people whom you’ve made think will perhaps upvote you at best, but very, very few will admit “You’ve completely changed my mind on this”, but that doesn’t mean what you’re doing isn’t useful. Sometimes you won’t make the perfect argument, because you don’t have the exact perspective of what the other side is thinking, and because no human is omniscient, and you might have to rethink nuances, strategies and approaches, but engaging other people with the ultimate goal of creating a society where everyone is accepted in equality and freedom is always, on the long run, worthwhile.

    starelfsc2,

    Thank you for writing this🙏 Only thing I think is missing is how it hurts people who are already on your side too if you overgeneralize.

    An example is dr K a psychiatrist who does youtube videos, with some focus on gaming addiction. He had many women (and some men I’m sure) calling for him to speak out on women’s experiences, so he made a video talking about how women’s experiences were much harder and men were living on “easy mode.”

    I personally haven’t watched any videos of his after that, not because they aren’t interesting psychology topics, and I know exactly what he means to say, but it was just such a hurtful thing to hear from someone that felt like was on my side. The comments were people who understood what he meant feeling hurt and disengaging, and the people who needed to be reached just getting angry, and now it’s ousted a lot of people who were already empathetic towards women’s struggles.

    Seleni,

    Alright, but…

    When you’re arguing on an online space large enough for a position that doesn’t yet have overwhelming support, you’re always going to get some pushback of some kind.

    Why wouldn’t the safety of women have overwhelming support? Why are we always on the back foot when it comes to discussions like these? Why is this such a ‘small position’ that women find themselves making ludicrous arguments about bears in the first place?

    I would hope that a discussion of safety for any group would have majority support.

    And we do know it’s not all men. There are many men who would never do such a thing. Or who have even been abused themselves.

    But, according to the CDC, over half of all women have experienced sexual violence, and 1 in 4 women have experienced attempted or completed rape. With those numbers, it’s not all men, but it’s not just a few men either.

    With those statistics, we can’t afford to just… trust. And the fun part? Many times, it’s someone the woman knows. So we can’t always believe we’re safe even with friends and family.

    And sadly, nature hasn’t supplied us with psychic powers to know when the big burly guy leaning in too close to talk is just socially awkward, or up to something more unpleasant.

    So I ask… please be understanding. Men are, on the whole, bigger and stronger than women, so a bad encounter has a much stronger chance to go very, very bad for us.

    SuddenDownpour,

    So I ask… please be understanding. Men are, on the whole, bigger and stronger than women, so a bad encounter has a much stronger chance to go very, very bad for us.

    I’m on the side of feminism, I’m not arguing against you. I’m trying to get you to understand the “battlefield”, because that’s literally what you asked for.

    Why wouldn’t the safety of women have overwhelming support? Why are we always on the back foot when it comes to discussions like these? Why is this such a ‘small position’ that women find themselves making ludicrous arguments about bears in the first place?

    Differentiate between these two groups: the people who are going to be radically against you because they’re assholes and just don’t want equality, and those who, for one reason or another, think that you aren’t really defending equality. In my experience, the first group is much smaller, and they usually try not to have their behavior be too usually noticeable in public, while the latter is larger, more numerous, more vocal, and will receive the silent support of the former for entirely different reasons.

    Let me go back here:

    Men are, on the whole, bigger and stronger than women, so a bad encounter has a much stronger chance to go very, very bad for us.

    This, and its natural conclusion (“be cautious in situations where a potential aggressor may suffer no consequences”) is extremely reasonable, and I don’t think people should be blamed for that cautiousness in some situations. But getting that across to someone who hasn’t suffered the same kinds of victimization that lead you to take that position is difficult, because the position they’ve started the discussion at is “I haven’t done anything wrong and I’m being treated like a criminal!”, and they aren’t having that discussion in a perfectly quiet stage in front of someone who will express perfectly woven arguments, but on social media, where they fill find dumb arguments, stupid comparisons, unfair criticisms, real experiences, dubious narrations, tellings of statistically rare events, good arguments, and people spewing hate in one direction and the other, so even when you make the best possible case for your cause, people who in other circumstances would easily be capable of seeing your point, will already be angry, and therefore predisposed against it.

    Cryophilia,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    CherenkovBlue,

    So like… Why are you swearing at her just for her civil question and discussion?

    Feathercrown,

    Yeah she didn’t even “all men” him like wtf

    umbrella, (edited )
    @umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

    How do we explain it to you

    you cant explain it to someone who don’t want to hear it, but hear me out: bear vs cop.

    picture this: you are in the woods smoking some weed in an illegal country. bear or cop?

    KillingTimeItself,

    the whole country is illegal? When the fuck did this meta drop?

    umbrella,
    @umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

    yea cop bout to bust you with slovak republic what do

    KillingTimeItself,

    well shit i better be on the move then jesus

    Feathercrown,

    I really appreciate that you made this post. Every top-level comment here is complaining about it being “rage bait” and that the question would “never foster productive discussion.” Why? Why aren’t men capable of seeing the scenario, recognizing why it’s necessary to say something like that, and getting over themselves just a little bit to get the point? The original question wasn’t even a “not all men” thing, there’s no actual reason to get mad about it enough to dismiss the dicussion. We have to be able to have a conversation where the other side is allowed to say something a tiny bit outside of our standards for what we want them to say, or we’ll never have a conversation at all.

    KillingTimeItself,

    Why aren’t men capable of seeing the scenario, recognizing why it’s necessary to say something like that, and getting over themselves just a little bit to get the point?

    here’s something i’ve formed up recently after this man/bear thing happened, it’s a working theory, and i’m curious to see what people think. If no likey, please yell at me in reply.

    because it’s basically impossible? It’s like asking someone born without vision to see. It’s a significant cultural divide (i say cultural as a stop gap here) between two massive parties who have different understandings and views of the world. It shouldn’t come as a surprise when one party expresses a doctored viewpoint of theirs to the other side, for the other side to be really fucking confused.

    I take it you probably don’t know much about nuclear power? If so, it’d be like me coming out of the blue when you mention that fukushima was bad, instead of me talking about why fukushima happened, why it was bad, what could’ve been prevented, and how it shouldn’t have happened. I started talking about reactor design, and going through the different generations of designs, talked about the EPR, the EBWR, the ABWR, the PWR, the MSR, the ESR, the PBR, the SSR, etc… You quite literally, do not need that level of background to be able to comprehend fukushima specifically.

    I think it’s a similar thing, where people are trying to make people comprehend something they can’t experience, don’t really care about on a personal level. They might know someone who has, which makes them sympathetic/empathetic to it, but that’s it. We all understand, on some level, that this is an issue, i don’t know how much the specific experience here matters, when the broad problem is very much identifiable, and objectively bad. And that everybody probably already agrees with it. It seems rather redundant to me.

    It’s like trying to explain “war bad” by showing pictures of war casualties to people, all you’re doing is traumatizing them in that case.

    spujb,

    The irony is, I am seeing a lot of productive discussion? Like high key? Alongside the standard rage, trolling and harassment of course (which should be banned).

    I genuinely think that, if women actually stick around, this event could be a net positive for the Lemmyverse. What’s needed is just like several dozen deep breaths, some listening, and of course more effective moderation of the bad actors.

    Feathercrown,

    For sure. I hope lemmy’s mod tools have improved, I heard they were basically nonexistent before.

    beardown,

    How would you feel if the hypothetical was asking if you’d rather encounter a bear or a Muslim?

    What about a bear or a person who is black?

    Or a bear vs an immigrant?

    See the issue?

    Also, when we dehumanize or other an entire sex (which is what we’re doing here) who do you think suffers the most irl from that dehumanization?

    Because it isn’t rich white men in gated suburban communities. It isn’t billionaires. It’s the working class black and brown men who are already viewed as inherently harmful and are disproportionately violently victimized by police and the state.

    If we want more George Floyds then we should keep spreading memes like this. Because this contributes to the mindset that allows us to view men of color as inherently dangerous superpredators

    umbrella, (edited )
    @umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

    i think you are mostly making false equivalences here, but:

    working class black and brown men who are already viewed as inherently harmful

    let me say this: a lot of this is self reinforcing. i think a lot of whats rightfully (and wrongly) criticized about men comes from this vicious cycle of disfranchised men falling behind > lashing out > getting hate > finding easy answers cause there isn’t much men to men convo about it > falling further behind and so on. yes its awful to live in a society where you are still pushed to be a some unattainable ideal while being in a terrible situation yourself, and then best case scenario is being made fun of for it.

    however, as much as some men call out the fact many women generalize, many men tend to also ignore that PLENTY of us act absolutely horribly then play the victims, in a possibly indistinguishable way men might want to defend themselves. conversations about this would be healthier if this understanding were more common.

    beardown,

    So it’s black men’s fault that the police kill them at disproportionate rates and that society views them as inherently dangerous?

    You realize that collective punishment is a war crime, right?

    umbrella,
    @umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

    no, i’m saying men (in general) in a shitty situation get caught in a vicious cycle, of society punishing them and them being less sociable due to society punishing them without them having healthy ways to cope.

    i quoted working class, black and brown under the assumption most white men are also working class. black men are probably more likely to get caught in shitty situations though, since racism is a thing.

    KillingTimeItself,

    Okay, but, speaking as a woman, we try to explain these issues nicely, with gentle terminology and a big helping of ‘not all of you, but some of you…’ and we get ignored, dismissed, belittled, or flat-out gaslit.

    ok so, as a result of the bear debate, i wouldn’t exactly say it was all roses and sunshine over there, probably a thunderstorm and bristles more like.

    I think most people want the statement laid out very literally in front of them. Usually being pretty fucking obtuse about shit, tends to get peoples attention. Sitting in a corner and vaguely looking in the direction of someone isn’t going to.

    maybe i’m just really fucking autistic or something, but if that shit doesn’t work, i wouldn’t do it. I’d click into a thread titled “men raping women is a problem” and see what’s going on, and chances are, it’s going to be more civil than the bear incident.

    i’d be up for just fucking talking about it. I’m sure a number of other people would as well. You aren’t going to appease everyone, that’s impossible, you just need to appease the majority. And frankly, anybody who is reading about “hey uhm, rape bad, no do?” and gets fucking pissed off about it? They’re probably not a good person to be honest.

    genuinely, i just think straight up, open conversation about it. People can’t play nice? Don’t let em, i guess? there are a few options there. I’m not an admin/mod, so don’t ask me lol.

    Danquebec,

    I just want to let you know that when women share their experiences, some men like me will process what they’ve read and understand, and not reply or anything. I don’t have anything to add. I’m probably part of a large silent group.

    That was before the bear thing. I actually hadn’t even seen the bear meme.

    When I read a woman share her experiences, I just get sad about it all and move to the next post in my Lemmy feed or whatever I’m reading on the internet.

    spujb,

    This is an excellent analysis of the reasoning that led into this. Thank you for sharing.

    Plenty of people are dismissing this as “ragebait,” which, sure. But like, what on earth is more rage-worthy than systemic rape culture and silencing of women?

    There is definitely a time and place for tone policing. But that’s never the exact minute a woman expresses her lived experience in a way that actually grabs attention. ❤️

    KillingTimeItself,

    which, sure. But like, what on earth is more rage-worthy than systemic rape culture and silencing of women?

    idk probably the fact that instead of talking about that fact, we were sat there yelling at each other about bears in a hypothetical forest?

    Like don’t get me wrong i like talking about issues, but there’s a point where you just have to sit back and wonder what the fuck you’re doing with your life. This was one of them.

    spujb,

    This entire post is about women who were talking about rape culture getting harrased into deleting their accounts.

    The problem I care about is barely the hypothetical forest at this point in time, but the abject abuse. I encourage you to take the same perspective.

    KillingTimeItself,

    yeah, i could see that being a problem, i didn’t experience that, nor perpetrate that. Unless being mad at someone on the internet entails that, in which case, i think that’s less of a me problem. Because this is the internet.

    I didn’t DM people or anything though, just yelled about shit in the comments. I think part of the problem was that we even started talking about the bear problem at all. I’m not really sure how anybody expected it to go? I’m not sure how i would’ve expected it to go, but i’m not sure i would’ve posted it either to be honest.

    ElpaisTurd,

    What about non binary? You fucking transphobic piece of wood

    Sethayy,

    I think its more or less you come in swinging most people are gonna swing back, the bear thing gave both sides a reason to ‘rightfully’ be angry when the question literally couldn’t matter less than Lego fortnite

    kerrigan778,

    Honestly yeah, Lemmy overall has seemed like it’s gotten a bit iffier over the last few months. I feel like maybe it needs to be tweaked a bit in how it functions. Or maybe just needs more people.

    LifeOfChance,

    Lemmy honestly is not friendly or welcoming. My wife left after being attacked for any comment she made where she mentioned being a female. The man vs bear debate wasn’t even around until a month or so later.

    If you’re not a tech savvy male and you’re lurking just don’t get involved. They’ll belittle anyone who’s isn’t. You need to have PC for gaming on a Linux computer having the ability to program within Linux while running your internet through a pihole so your jellyfin server can remain hidden through the VPN. If you even ask any question about anything I said prepare to be shamed for not knowing how to already know.

    spujb,

    pretty accurate and it sucks so bad :( sorry that happened to your wife

    dependencyinjection,

    What kind of stuff are they attacking her for?

    Why are people like this. I couldn’t care less what sex you’re as long as you’re making interesting content.

    PanArab,

    I’m a man and I would take my chances with a bear over a man I don’t know. I don’t blame women who feel safer around a bear.

    Sorry your experience here was awful.

    ZC3rr0r,

    I am 100% with the women choosing the bear over an unknown man. Most wildlife, including bears, just want to be left alone to do their own thing. You can safely assume that the most likely thing to happen is the bear just does it’s own thing and lets you be. An unknown man is a much less predictable entity, and as such should be treated with a lot more suspicion.

    Side note for those wanting to be pedantic: Bears vary in their level of habituation and indifference to humans as a result. More habituated bears may associate you with food, and some may even see you as food (depending on species) This will affect their aggression towards you, but as a general rule of thumb it’s still safe to assume any random bear would be more inclined to leave you alone or just steal your food than to actively want to harm you.

    rottingleaf,

    Most wildlife, including bears, just want to be left alone to do their own thing.

    Similarly to humans. It’s the most important part, but sometimes animals want to play or get irritated at your presence. A bear is gifted by nature with ability to break many bones in your body without getting tired.

    n3m37h,

    I literally have no clue what man vs bear is and honestly sounds like it should stay that way1

    Dearth,

    It’s a thought experiment. Women are asked if they’d rather stumble upon a bear or a man in the woods. Most women choose bear. Some boys got really offended at the women’s choice.

    arin,

    Most girls had Teddy bears so that’s an obvious choice imo. They don’t understand bear mauling from grizzlies or face eating polar bears

    Dearth,

    I think the point isn’t that certain bear species are aggressive, it’s that all bear species are unapologetically bears. They don’t try to pretend they are something else. Bears are bears and they all treat humans more or less the same

    arin,

    The point is their only experience with bears are the cute toys and child artwork. Men in their experience were sexual predators and viewed and acted as women were prey.

    Yggnar,

    I think you might be part of the problem, dude. Those are some pretty grand generalizations/assumptions about women there.

    ClaireDeLuna,

    “Women don’t know bears can kill you because they had fluffy teddy bears growing up” is what you sound like.

    What? First off, boys also have teddy bears. Most people’s experiences with bears are precisely what you described as solely women’s experiences.

    Like what are bears in men’s daily experience? I’ll isolate down to North America to keep things simple.

    Most men’s experience with bears is identical to that of women’s. Most men live in suburbs or cities, and haven’t even seen a bear outside of a zoo. But most men and women know that bears are dangerous wild animals because…we have been taught that.

    I don’t get why women are so infantalized by men. Now I’m just imagining a father walking up to his son, telling his daughter to leave the room then telling him “bears are dangerous son, you never wanna be close to one and here’s what you do to stay safe, also do NOT tell your sister this, she’s a girl and doesn’t need to know this because one day she’ll have a husband that will protect her from the bears”

    arin,

    Number of female hunters vs male? Men have more encounters

    ClaireDeLuna,

    And another broad generalization goes to you.

    Women aren’t idiots. They know what bears are. They also know what men are which is precisely why they are mostly answering the way they do.

    arin,

    LMAO

    LazyBane,

    This is really the terminal issue with Reddit alternatives. They are just Reddit minus the most recent controversy as of foundation. Reddit is overall just a popular content aggregation website with poorly design discussion features.

    Upvotes and down votes, while intended to help users weed out bad arguments and spam, only achive in promoting sophistry and tribalism. What ends up getting upvoted is what “wins” the argument, while good arguments that come from unpopular viewpoints get downvoted.

    And with that comes all the toxic elements from old Reddit ruat we all hope just won’t be a part of our replacements. Reddit’s format works at a smaller scale, where users are typically more enthusiastic and therefor better informed, but as the sites get larger you’ll notice they typical hyper-snarky “owned with facts and logic” attitude take hold of a community as more people with a weaker investment jump on the bandwagon and upvote everything that makes them feel smart.

    Eventually, the site becomes just like Reddit, but for a smaller and more insulated community, and users begin to question why they’re here instead of Reddit which has the established user base that can reliably cover more topics you are interested in.

    We have not learnt from history, and we are doomed to repeat it. Maybe it’ll be different in the future.

    ZC3rr0r,

    The one major advantage that Reddit alternatives on the Fediverse have over Reddit still is that nobody owns the platform wholesale. So while that doesn’t solve the content issues you’re rightfully bringing up, at least we’ve learned from Reddit’s faults by removing the option of unilaterally making platform-level decisions that are undesirable for the end user.

    rottingleaf,

    Some people need to attack somebody and feel smarter than IRL, let them do it on Reddit or Lemmy and not on the street.

    Yerbouti,

    Nah. Lemmy is FOSS while Reddit is going to shit.

    LazyBane,

    Being open source doesn’t stop the inherent flaws of the Karma system or the increasing toxicity that correlates with platform population.

    It’s really cool that Lemmy is FOSS, don’t get me wrong, but that’s kinda irrelevant to the issues presented.

    Yerbouti,

    I know it doesnt fix toxicity but it has the potential to bring solutions. Users dont have any power over Reddit’s management decision, they made sure to remind us last year. But wity Lemmy, we can always change the rule, experiment with new systems, etc. That’s a huge difference.

    ParabolicMotion,

    Yep. I agree. I’ve been bullied on Lemmy for sharing the fact that I have been bullied in my own home town because local law enforcement hired exes of mine who have abused their law enforcement powers. I now have a person, or group, that follows each of my posts and comments to immediately downvote them, even if they aren’t even controversial. I just receive an automatic downvote. That pales in comparison to the verbal bashing I’ve received from that group, or person. Each time I speak out, I have this one commenter that tells me that I’m crazy and need meds to make me shut up about having been abused by an ex that was hired by our local sheriff’s department. I wonder if they sniffed my phone to follow my account. I guess that would be crazy and just earn me more hateful comments from “random” people on Lemmy, huh? My question is, do I blame Lemmy as a whole, or will people on here finally admit that some certain local in my area is stalking my account?

    When comments have become as bad as “strangers” telling me to “get raped with a rusty lawn mower blade”, I have to wonder if it’s all coming from the same IP address and if the mods even care.

    Hadriscus,

    wtaf ? from that same post I just replied to yesterday ? Can you take it to the admins of your instance ? perhaps they can do something about it I don’t know

    KevonLooney,

    I’ll be honest with you: based on your comment scores, I don’t see anyone following you and downvoting all your comments. I can almost guarantee that there’s no “group” doing it, as very few people care that much.

    Although I have seen people on Lemmy randomly downvote things for no discernable reason. Like I will post a comment and it will be negative for a few hours. Then when more sane people show up, it’s upvoted so it’s positive. My comment didn’t change, the people looking at it did. Don’t worry so much about votes.

    ParabolicMotion,

    True, there are some people that just downvote everything, for no reason. I get that. I guess what made me worry was the fact that I had comments in Lemmy News telling me they hope I get raped with a rusty lawn mower blade, followed by someone downvoting all of my past comments in succession after that comment. I figured it was the person who made that comment.

    CosmicCleric,
    @CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

    I had comments in Lemmy News telling me they hope I get raped with a rusty lawn mower blade,

    Curious if you reported them?

    If so, did you check the mod log to see if they were banned? Did the offending comment get removed?

    followed by someone downvoting all of my past comments in succession after that comment.

    Personally I would say that’s happening to you, sure. I’ve experienced something similar, over something much more trivial than what you’ve experienced.

    Apparently it’s someone’s personal mission in life to try to maintain their version of ‘order and peace’ on Lemmy, through their singular actions.

    https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/legalcode.en

    ParabolicMotion,

    I did report it. I should check to see if it was removed. Honestly, I haven’t thought about it much. I have had other things to do, and it just wasn’t on my mind lately.

    rottingleaf, (edited )

    Actually I have had an argument (don’t remember if that was still Reddit or already Lemmy, but my old account on an instance which went dead) with every my comment N days back getting the same 2 or 3 downvotes (don’t remember, but it was the same number with every of them) and the other side at some point saying that it’s “the community showing you the door”, making it clear that it’s them trying so hard, but that was actually funny.

    Pfeffy,

    I rip on the Man versus bear thing because it’s boring and repetitive and spammed everywhere.

    Duamerthrax,

    I’m not going into the Man vs Bear discussions for the same reasons. Could most allies just be avoiding those threads, leading to a bias of toxic people in them?

    worldofbirths,
    @worldofbirths@lemmy.world avatar

    Everyone has a vested interest in 50% of the population feeling good about the other half. And certainly we should all feel safer about being with fellow humans than with a bear. The fact that some of us don’t feel that way means we should try to make them feel safer.

    Thanks for the post. Does anyone have advice on how to become a moderator?

    spujb,

    Look for communities that are actively calling for mod applications. I know !196 has been looking for a while.

    Beebabe,
    @Beebabe@lemmy.world avatar

    It was not interesting to see how different cohorts responded to the topic. It certainly landed the hardest in this one. More discussion to be had I guess.

    Cannacheques,

    I’m not a bear but on behalf of bears I think it’s funny that many women prefer bears which unironically explains how deranged everyone is

    tobogganablaze,

    I think it’s funny that many women prefer bears

    I don’t believe that that’s actually true.

    I’m pretty sure that if you took any of them to the edge of a forest and relevaled a big crate with a bear in it, their choice would change very quickly.

    Flax_vert,

    Who will win: Gender equality or a funny bear

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