PugJesus
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PugJesus

@PugJesus@kbin.social

Cripple. History Major. Vaguely left-wing.

PugJesus,
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Many of them owned slaves and had zero issues with slave ownership.

Three of the seven Founding Fathers were slave-owners.

One was restricted by law from freeing them due to the massive debts he ran up funding the Revolution (Washington) but came to believe that slavery was an unambiguous evil by the end of his life, making plans to free his slaves lawfully (which is a bit of a dick move considering the state of the law at the time, but 'we are creatures of habit, not originality').

One was a dickhead, but one who thought slavery was bad and should die out (Jefferson).

Only one was an unrepentant slaver (Madison).

The other four were staunch abolitionists.

This land was populated by people who “escaped” Europe because of “religious persecution” which actually meant Europe was getting all progressive and deeply philosophical so you couldn’t just shove your bullshit religion down other people’s throats anymore with impunity.

That was true for the Puritans who founded Mass and Connecticut. But for most of what would become the US, the exact opposite was the truth. Europe quite explicitly was NOT progressive and deeply philosophical about religion at the time - the Puritans on the Mayflower were fleeing, specifically, the Netherlands, which was a rare bastion of religious tolerance in Europe. Maryland was founded as a refuge for Catholics where all Trinitarians would have equal rights - far more radical than most of Europe. Pennsylvania was explicitly founded on religious tolerance by a Quaker. Rhode Island instituted freedom for non-Trinitarian Christians in the 17th century. European Jews fled to New York (after it was no longer New Amsterdam) specifically BECAUSE it was more tolerant than Europe. New Jersey, North Carolina, and South Carolina were religiously diverse from the outset.

Most of the Founding Fathers were deists or highly deist influenced, and all believed in freedom of religion.

Hagiography of the early days of America is dumb. But demonization doesn't provide a clear view simply by being the reverse.

PugJesus,
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The pyramids were built by well paid craftsmen.

Designed, certainly. But constructed by peasant corvée.

PugJesus,
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If not slaves, then who were these workers? Lehner's friend Zahi Hawass, secretary general of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, who has been excavating a "workers' cemetery" just above Lehner's city on the plateau, sees forensic evidence in the remains of those buried there that pyramid building was hazardous business. Why would anyone choose to perform such hard labor? The answer, says Lehner, lies in understanding obligatory labor in the premodern world. "People were not atomized, separate, individuals with the political and economic freedom that we take for granted. Obligatory labor ranges from slavery all the way to, say, the Amish, where you have elders and a strong sense of community obligations, and a barn raising is a religious event and a feasting event. If you are a young man in a traditional setting like that, you may not have a choice." Plug that into the pyramid context, says Lehner, "and you have to say, 'This is a hell of a barn!'"

Lehner currently thinks Egyptian society was organized somewhat like a feudal system, in which almost everyone owed service to a lord. The Egyptians called this "bak." Everybody owed bak of some kind to people above them in the social hierarchy.

That's literally corvée.

PugJesus,
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Okay, great, I see our argument is "Words don't matter, corvee isn't corvee, unskilled labor isn't unskilled labor; because they lived in a barracks and were fed well".

PugJesus,
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How does that describe pyramid workers?

unpaid

forced labour

intermittent

imposed by a state

for the purposes of public works

I'm not seeing the unskilled Egyptian workers we're talking about here miss any of these criteria.

What do you think 'obligatory labor' in the context of a 'feudal'-like system for the Pharaoh by commoners on a massive construction project is exactly?

PugJesus,
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They were unpaid because Egypt didn’t have the concept of currency.

You don't need currency to be paid.

They weren’t forced, they volunteered their services.

That's not what 'obligatory labor' means.

All work in Egypt was intermittent due to Nile floods.

Okay? All work for peasantry is intermittent due to the changing of the seasons. That doesn't mean you can't impose corvee on a peasant - in fact, peasant farmers are USUALLY the ones who ARE getting corvee'd precise BECAUSE their own ordinary labor is intermittent. The point of distinguishing corvee as intermittent is to differentiate it from slavery and ad hoc forced labor, not because picking up drifters who do small jobs instead of full-time factory workers changes the nature of a corvee.

It wasn’t for the purpose of public works, it was for the purpose of religion.

It was a public monument by the government. Your own link says, and I quote:

From the Egyptian Old Kingdom (c. 2613 BC, the 4th Dynasty) onward, corvée contributed to government projects.[6] During the times of the Nile River floods, it was used for construction projects such as pyramids, temples, quarries, canals, roads, and other works.

PugJesus,
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The answer is probably the same as Gambargin's constant teasing of the Smiling Khatun Doujin - not a number worth discussing. XD

PugJesus, (edited )
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Early tanks were hella crowded, and often had many guns which later tank designs would regard as superfluous (typically those along the side and back). Modern tanks, while tight, are designed more ergonomically, and have fewer positions that need manned.

PugJesus,
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People are (sometimes willfully) confusing "the current status quo is fucked" with "there is no improvement resulting from the measures taken by the administration". The former is true - the latter is not.

PugJesus,
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I get that this is nominally how capitalism is supposed to work, but I think that putting the investor as the first, last, and only consideration has caused a proliferation of slash-and-burn style short-termism. It’s fake growth because it’s not actually sustainable, everyone knows it, but you just try and keep it up until the next short term scheme can keep your stonks inflated.

It's very true. When the owner-class still dominated decision-making, there was a level of rationality in firm behavior - as there were owners who felt that the firm was their property, they were motivated to keep it healthy. Shear the sheep. From the viewpoint of the owner, this is rational - there is no sense in destroying what makes you money in the long term.

But investors have no such urge, and as the investor-class has come to dominate decision-making and not just capital allocation, they've begun slaughtering the sheep to gorge themselves and move onto the next. This, from their viewpoint, is perfectly rational decision-making - they are maximizing their gain from each investment, wringing it dry, and then leaving what's left (preferably before the stock crashes) to find a new, healthy host. I mean, investment. They have no incentive to maintain the health of the firm, not even in an exploitative sense. What is it that Marx calls them? Rentier capitalists?

It's not sustainable. Not even by capitalism's admittedly low standards.

PugJesus,
PugJesus avatar

Aurelian did some currency reforms, but he wasn't the only one who did so. "Right guy, wrong time" was meant more of a "He was great, but he was born in the wrong era"

Imagine an Aurelian after Severus Alexander, and not Maximinus Thrax! Alas, he came in to an Empire on the brink of collapse, expended his energy in reuniting the Empire, and then had the chaos and paranoia of the Crisis of the Third Century lead to his assassination.

But yes, we stan Aurelian in this house, Restitutor Orbis!

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