This comic pretty perfectly encapsulates a lot of the Jewish experience regarding #Israel right now. Made in 2017 for the NY Times' "T Magazine," by Vanessa Davis.
The person debating her is depicted as a white man, but I've had this argument come from people of many different races and ethnicities. It's far from being a white man's argument.
@emilyk Wait, is the man supposed to be wrong in this cartoon?
Because I notice that the woman is focused entirely on her feelings, and making all of her arguments through hyperbole, while he’s saying reasonable things like “You can criticize Israel without threatening its existence.”
@avram@emilyk I think the point is that they are talking past each other. She is explaining her feelings and he is dismissing them by citing irrelevant facts.
@baruch@avram But also like... responding to "I don't like talking about it" with "Your privilege is showing," and rolling one's eyes when someone expresses their feeling unsafe since the Holocaust happened to our grandparents even as our people are being murdered in synagogues in the US, and ultimately deciding "it's harder to be Palestinian than Jewish" without having experienced life as either... to what end?
The idea that Israel exists "for the Holocaust" is either ignorant of or willfully ignores past antisemitism and the demographics of Israel today.
Secular Zionism was a response to the antisemitism of the day, and that included the Pogroms of Russia in the 1800s and the early 20th Century.
Today 60% of Israelis are either first or second, or third generation descendants of a huge tragedy which (sadly) doesn't seem to have a name other than "The Mass Expulsion of Jews from the MENA" when nearly 900,000 Jews were stripped of their rights and were forced to flee their homes.
And while I know you know this, not everyone seems cognizant that Israel wasn't given as a gift to Jews for the Holocaust, it was hard fought.
No one is arguing we can't criticize actions of the Israeli government, but it needs to be done in ways that are respectful to Jews, both Israeli and diasporatic.
Mmm... It's a challenge when criticising policy decisions of Israel's right-wing government is immediately labelled as anti-semitic. These days, I am highly critical of those policies, particularly with respect to the Palestinian people.
I'm not anti-semitic, not at all, and I would rather accept the label and keep attention focused on the policies of the Israeli government than get distracted by someone calling me names.
> It's a challenge when criticising policy decisions of Israel's right-wing government is immediately labelled as anti-semitic.
I've heard this and 99.99% of the time, the reason that someone says it's antisemitic is because it's antisemitic.
If someone else can't criticize Israel without being antisemitic, that's not on Jews or Israelis to give them a free pass, it's on the person speaking to learn how not to be hateful.
If you're here to say that's correct then I'd ask you to look outside of your experience.
It also alarmingly feels like you're defending a right-wing government, in very much the same way as my first paragraph. Where is the room for criticism if any utterance is labelled as hateful speech?
Ah. So, you're saying that nobody accused of antisemitism in the UK is actually being antisemitic. But rather that it is used completely politically and to destroy enemies of the state?
Do you mean enemies of the UK or enemies of Israel?
Does it matter who is saying it, or is it 100% of the time as you said, regardless of speaker and situation?
Well, at least you're doing me the courtesy of asking questions before pressing the A button.
Is there antisemitism in the UK? Of course there is. I've met some and have heard these repugnant views expressed aloud (in passing; I do not mingle or otherwise associate with bigoted people, having suffered bigotry myself). That's on a personal level.
However, whenever it is brought up in the political sphere? That's a much harder proposition to answer. And I strongly believe that in some of the highest profile cases we have in recent years, that accusation was not only unfounded but evidence was manufactured to provide that impression. So let me be clear: when it is being wielded as a weapon by State to destroy an opponent of State I believe it is predominantly false. Such is my dire level of trust in the British political sphere I now take the position that it is false until proven to the most rigorous intellectual standards.
I do not talk in terms of "enemies" except in clear jest. That's not a term I would ever use seriously, unless in reference to an entity that does use the term. That's polarising, de-humanising language that leads to nowhere good.
That last question....I'm a complex human being capable of rational thought and determining my own mind in a situation. I won't be trapped into answering a question that pre-supposes I'm some kind of robotic entity incapable of discernment or evaluation.
And that's leading me to suspect you've engaged also in bad faith so please do consider your next response. I'm a human being seeking understanding and fellowship. All I ask in return is respect, that I have had very little of so far here today.
sigh. And here I've just been reading the very well written article you linked to in your profile as well. It seems that doing people the courtesy of getting to know them before slinging accusation at them may be some kind of lost art.
You're questioning my biases when It's becoming apparent you've made up your mind before talking to me. You asked; I expanded. You're now trying to gotcha me pre-expansion. Perhaps I also should have phrased it as 99.99%, to make me look at least a tiny bit reasonable? Would that have worked?
Alright; I erred making that statement. It happens and I'm big enough to admit it. Does that appease the flame? Does it earn me any less of your ire, any more recognition as a human being and not a slavering monster that wants your head?
But I'm not interested in any further discussion that is clearly working to prove what I'm not. Your suspicions are your problem, not mine, and I owe you no effort in handing you further rope to create this fetching noose you're making.
And as I depart this thread for good I want you, and everyone, to consider that if this is how you treat people genuinely empathetic towards you, with a genuine love of your culture and works and people as individuals and as a community, and who has worked hard throughout their life to understand what you've suffered and to also stand against it ever happening again....then that's a dark reflection upon you.
This response is more for everyone else than you Uraael, because it's a great illustration of a number of examples of the way persecuted people are treated online.
Firstly, let's look at the context. It's a Jew talking about how they're persecuted, and how "Israel" is used as a weapon to attack them, and other Jews are expressing how they feel the same way, and the nuances of that conversation and experience.
You made a choice to come into this discussion and make an unsolicited reply.
Then you say "100% politically to silence conversation", which is literally saying that Jewish experiences of this are 0% of the time, so dismissing Jewish experiences of their own persecution.
Then you say that I should "look outside my experience", which is ironic, because the discussion is about Jewish persecution, and you're saying that Jews should look outside their experience of persecution.
Then you say it "alarmingly feels like you're defending a right-wing government", which I never did, but it's a way to tone police the Jews who are expressing hurt over their persecution, and saying that it's really the Jews who are to blame for their own persecution because of the way they express themselves.
Then you say create a strawman with "any utterance is labeled as hateful speech", when the post you were replying to was about how one could criticize Israeli policy without being antisemitic.
This is an almost textbook lesson in how Jews are treated, they're marginalized and silenced when discussing their own plight.
I wanted to present your message in its entirety and didn't want there to be an accusation that I modified any of your words. Also, I've found many people edit their posts or remove them when called out.
Would you like me to quote your message entirely instead? I'm happy to do that.
@Uraael Where you come from? Your profile gives your location as Scotland, same as me.
Are YOU wiling to look outside your experience (really your interpretations of your "experience") or will I be wasting my time if I write about the giant blind spots most Scots have regarding antisemitic tropes?
Making out it's "just criticism of Israel" does NOT erase the antisemitism from the tropes.
Claims like you've made are what silences the conversation
Hi Emma. ☺️ Always happy to be educated if you're respectful about it.
I'm sure, like me, you'll agree that criticising Westminster ISN'T the same thing as "Hating the English", something I've seen hurled at Indy folk online too often to count.
So then why is criticising decisions made by the Govt of Israel or actions taken by the military of Israel so often interpreted as bigotry against the entirety of Jewish individuals, culture and faith?
Is it simply because I'm not Jewish? Do I not get to have an opinion, or discuss that opinion?
The only way I could despise fascism more is if I was myself Jewish. I would never claim that personal level of understanding but I've spent my life learning about how the Jewish people have suffered historically and especially through WWII, one of the largest atrocities our species has ever inflicted upon itself.
I'm interested to learn your own perspective and discuss these blind spots. I wonder if they'll touch upon such blind spots as our local political facilitation/blind eye towards Sectarianism.
I have long watched the way Antisemitism is used as a political cudgel in this country (I don't assume everyone knows where I'm from, hence my opening line), where Islamaphobia receives nowhere near the same thrift, so if you're here to tell me that doesnt happen then you've a fight on your hands.
@Uraael That's quite a bit of misleading conflation & misinterpretation you've started with. They're common mistakes so this can be the 1st bit of learning
Israelis & disapora Jews criticise the Israeli govt and military often and Israelis are far more willing to take to the streets to protest than we do in the UK (working on 7 months of weekly protests against the current govt). How often does that make the news here though? How often does it go viral on social media outside of Jewish circles?
@Uraael Criticising the Israeli government and military isn't antisemitic in and of itself. BUT (and please take the chip off your shoulder, and threats of fighting me, read this carefully, have your emotional reactions and them come back and read it again) MAKING OUT IT'S "just criticism of Israel" DOES NOT ERASE ANTISEMITISM FROM THE TROPES. If you, or anyone else, uses antisemitic tropes and dog whistles in their criticisms those tropes and dog whistles are still antisemitic.
@Uraael Some of those tropes and dog whistles are so deeply embedded in UK culture that most people here don't even realise what they're saying or why it has that ring of "truth".
Please don't do an argument dump on me. You're not saying anything I haven't heard or read a hundred times before. I'm not here to fight and you've agreed to respectful learning so please show me the respect of listening.
I'll come back to the rest after you've had some time to digest this.
(and please take the chip off your shoulder, and threats of fighting me, read this carefully, have your emotional reactions and them come back and read it again)
There's no chip on my shoulder. None. Flat out out nuh-uh. And you don't need to soothe me away from excess emotionalism. That's a wee bit patronising. I'm 48 not 18. Please let me handle my emotional state and you just focus on what you want to say.
And to be clear it wasn't a threat of any kind. I was fairly cheery as I wrote it - pitching the correct tone is often so difficult to get right on the internet (for me, anyway). I just meant it was a fairly settled opinion, is all, and you'd need some effort to shift it.
Alright? Grand.
So I'm making mistakes? Great. but you need to specify what they are, not simply lay it out as a general statement. e.g what specific tropes/dog whistles am I spreading (for instance)?
I'm not sure why you think I'm not aware of Israeli citizenry resistance to their own govt. That's....it happens here, it happens everywhere, surely? I like that they protest more readily. If only we Scots had that passion to mobilise...!
Okay, no argument dump. I'm Neurodivergent so sometimes fall into the habit of explaining exhaustively, from every angle, pre-empting questions and trying to cut off unwanted avenues of discussion....It's a lot, I know. I'll try to keep it concise going forwards.
So, yeah, good starter but still waiting for the main course, as it were. When you're ready.
@Uraael If I had started with a list of the mistakes you've made in this thread it would have just been a paraphrase of your posts. Going through them and offering corrections one by one tends to result in the person doubling-down, which is a waste of everyone's time.
So instead I started with a first bit of learning, in hopes it would help you stop making the very common mistake of insisting that the term antisemitism is used to silence "criticism". (cont)
@Uraael Your statements in that regard are wrong so I gave you a crystal clear example of on-going vehement criticism of the Israeli government which isn't antisemitic.
I also put forward a key principle which I've seen countless people fail to understand time and time and time again.
And I asked you to read carefully, feel whatever you were going to feel, and then come back and read it again. Because it is normal to react, but those emotions do tend to get in the way of dialogue. (cont)
@Uraael The first principle I wish to convey is this: MAKING OUT IT'S "just criticism of Israel" DOES NOT ERASE ANTISEMITISM FROM THE TROPES. If anyone uses antisemitic tropes and dog whistles in their criticisms those tropes and dog whistles are still antisemitic.
The second principle is that UNCONSCIOUS culturally embedded antisemitic tropes and dog whistles influence what people believe. If I name them specifically, most people are rational enough to recognise that the tropes are wrong and
@Uraael will insist that they don't believe them. But the number of times one in particular gets thrown at me in an argument tells a different story.
3rd: Those who are determined to eradicate Israel as a Jewish state are VERY skilled at editing videos and spinning half-truths and lies to play on those culturally embedded antisemitic tropes and dog whistles and influence what's accepted as if it were true
That's a lot for today. I won't continue until after Shabbes, so plenty of time to reread
@emmaaum Emma, I think I'll save you the trouble of a return visit.
I mean, it's two days after my last comment, You're betting a lot on the fact I've not simply wandered away out of boredom (which tbh I kinda have). And you've decided to strike up on a Friday at the start of the weekend for this Mon-Fri 9-5er. I don't know many folks who want to get into heavy sociological debates at this point.
It's not that I'm not interested but if you're going to parcel out this conversation in small segments that don't, again, offer any specifics (What ARE the dog-whistles etc), then I don't feel my time is being used particularly well.
You're also still making a lot of assumptions about me and my reactions instead of actually finding out who you're talking to, and that just feels like I have to spend time de-constructing those assumptions before we can settle into the conversation proper. You're pre-empting me and also Handling me; that's not conducive to a conversation between equals.
What I'd like is a nice wee session where we can sit down and methodically go through things. Having snippets of a discussion with a long break feels like I've made a new snail-mail Pen Pal. That's only going to frustrate.
You sound lovely, and I do thank you for taking the time, but this really isn't working for me so I'm bowing out gracefully. Take care, and please do have a lovely weekend and particularly Shabbes.
@Uraael As you wish. My health is shite, I have a firm policy of not talking about this sort of thing on Shabbes, and I am so tired of getting yelled at by people who won't listen to me, which is how this topic usually plays out.
I was going through things methodically. I told you why I didn't want to specifically name dog whistles yet. But whatever. I'm exhausted.
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