Today is an international day against police brutality. At this day I would like to remind you all that the only way to stop police brutality is to abolish the institution of police and replace it with solutions that actually deal with problems. #ACAB#15march
@bad_immigrant
There's no police in Haiti, but there are police in every one of the worlds most peaceful countries. Bad cops, corruption and anarchy are the problem, not police writ large.
@NMBA@bad_immigrant
I think you're missing the point. People who advocate for police abolition don't want to just remove the police and do nothing else; they want to replace the police with systems of restorative justice to actually mend societal ills and remove the causes of crimes instead of just punishing criminals which leads nowhere.
@NMBA@bad_immigrant What is any of this supposed to mean? You can't just show a bunch of seemingly random pictures and expect people to know what you're talking about.
@Radical_EgoCom@bad_immigrant
You'd have to follow the thread back, and there's too limited a word count to explain prooerly. Briefly, they have some magical idea about forcing some foolish model wirhout any authority on the world to save the world. I contend their anarchy wolderland already exists in Haiti, so they should go to haiti and live the anarchy they preach.
@NMBA@bad_immigrant People in this thread, myself, already explained that anarchist, at least the ones in this thread, don't want to create a society like Haiti. You saying they do is a misrepresention of the anarchist position.
@Radical_EgoCom@bad_immigrant
None of you have made a reasonabke argument, at all. You posit fantasy and attack me when i pop the fantasrical bubble. Anarchy is hell. Read some real history, not some new age crystal history,
@NMBA@bad_immigrant
I can't speak for all anarchist, but I am a Libertarian Communist and I can speak for myself and my position. The Libertarian Communist position advocates for a stateless, classless society where resources and decision-making power are collectively owned and democratically managed by the people. Now you know my position. You can argue against it if you like, but now you have no justification for claiming that I want to create a society like that of Haiti.
States have existed for, at most, five or six thousand years. They only came to dominate a majority of that world’s population about 500 years ago. Humans have existed as a distinct species for at least 300,000 years.
Of course, statelessness is not a synonym for the absence of all authority, but statelessness is a pretty good proxy for the absence of the kind of structural authority you’re claiming does not and could not exist.
There are extant societies today—immediate return forager communities—that lack essentially any distinction of authority, including age and sex. When I say that you are wrong, I mean that you are factually and empirically wrong, in a manner that’s trivially easy check.
@HeavenlyPossum I took an entire college course on the rise of nation/states. This is exactly what I was taught. This idea of "nations" is a very new idea, and not a particularly good one.
Nations serve the interests of a few at the expense of the many. Places like the US like to try and flip that around and pretend it's the opposite, but it is the same in the US.
@HeavenlyPossum@bad_immigrant
Oh, so you expect everyone to become a hunter gatherer...willingly, because you choose to ignore the past 6000 years of himan evolution? Go on...
Why do people do this asshole move? You demanded an example, you got one. Instead of having the basic decency to acknowledge that the example exists before going on to why you don''t like it, you immediately pretended that it's invalid because you don't like it.
Learn to do better. I don't care one bit about convincing you, but for your own good, learn how not to be an asshole.
I assume that when people believe something so fundamental about the world that they take it for granted—something like “people can’t live together without someone hurting them to behave”—that when they’re confronted with counter examples, it’s easier to excuse the counter example out of existence rather than re-evaluate those fundamental, unquestioned assumptions about the world.
@HeavenlyPossum
And it's often intensely personal - because those beliefs justify one's role in society or relationships with loved ones or self-worth or something like that.
It becomes like that old cliche "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it," except it extends even further for those of us from white settler wealth- if we've forgiven an abuser, or even honor their abuse, as we do with pioneers and plantation owners, and inherit from them - our own place in society depends on accepting the unreciprocated, unrepaired gains of violence.
To really believe might does not make right, is to begin an anti-racist, anti-colonial, anti-patriarchal internal journey - and that is hard, particularly among loved ones who continue to hold those beliefs.
At some point these larger beliefs become personal and then get stuck in that personal quagmire & defensiveness. @bad_immigrant@richpuchalsky@NMBA
I find it really fascinating how irrationally angry the idea of anarchism makes some people.
NMBA already established that they think the state should be making reproductive decisions for people, and so is already disinclined to ideas about freedom and consent, but even people who are generally positive towards peaceful cooperation can lose their minds when they hear “anarchist.”
@HeavenlyPossum@NMBA@richpuchalsky@violetmadder@thesquirrelfish@bad_immigrant What gets me is that I've never, in my life, actually heard of a cop actually helping anyone, that even privileged white people tell stories about what assholes cops are, that even in propaganda that glorifies cops, all cops do is exact revenge, and yet, people still insist we need cops.
@HeavenlyPossum@NMBA@richpuchalsky@violetmadder@bad_immigrant I recently saw a video arguing that people often make more logical decisions with problems they encounter in their second language, possibly due to emotional & cultural double meanings we learn along with our first language. If the first thing we learn about anarchy is that it caused WW1... Perhaps that's similarly charged and embedded?
@HeavenlyPossum@NMBA@violetmadder@bad_immigrant@richpuchalsky that's true! And unfortunately also not what I learned in high school history. The only anarchists I had ever heard of prior to age 30 were bombers and assassins! Despite associating with leftists and liberals and getting a poli sci degree from UC Santa Cruz...
@richpuchalsky@HeavenlyPossum@bad_immigrant
A key part of debate is calling out false logic just the same as calling out false facts. I simply did the former. Modern society simoly cannot confirm to the fantastical ideals you're dropping. The extremes are good for debate, but have no practical raison de etre.
The ideal you're dropping is that we all have to be managed by violence like prisoners or animals.
We oppose this ideal and anyone who wants to push it on us. There is no logical argument for this ideal, only arguments from power and privilege, from racism and patriarchy; only "might makes right".
All the horrors these ideals have brought upon us, and your idea is "more of the same please!".
You claim we've ignored human "evolution" over the last 6000 years at the same time that you insist human nature is this immutable and singular thing that demands we be subjugated by the assholes that you tell us we must give power over us.
When I point out that people lived in nonstate societies for most of our time as a species, someone will inevitably and incorrectly interpret this as advocacy for adopting preindustrial lifeways. This is incorrect.
What we can learn is that people with vastly fewer material resources at their command made it work, so we know that we should be able to as well.
The people of Tristan da Cunha live in an egalitarian and de facto stateless community with common property and reciprocal gifting. They are modern; they are your living contemporaries.
@NMBA there is way more to social peace than so called police forces. Economic inequality and many other factor contribute to violence in society despite presence of the police. Police states despite all the attempts are not the places of social peace, but rather of a brewing conflict ready to explode at any moment.
I believe that capitalism and colonial history contribute way more to the violence in Haiti, than the lack of the "modern" police forces.
@bad_immigrant
Yep, wealth inequality, religion and racism/sexism are related to social instability, but there's never been a human society without police/enforcement of rules because it isn't possible - the vaccuum of power incentivizes harm. The police aren't needed for the 95%, rather for the 5%. Policing needs reform (higher entrance standards, much more training, removing bad cops, etc) not eradication.
@NMBA when you say "never" you already know that you are wrong, right? For very long time humans in different parts of the world existed without police or any other centralized institution of violence. Modern police is relatively new concept. Depending on your region it may be just a bit more than 100 years older.
Please study history before making such statements. It helps to avoid empty conversations on social networks.
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