Can lemmy please remove the requirement of joining a server to create an account?

IMO, Lemmy would gain far more users if you were able to create a user account without having to be approved by a server first.

If communities want to remain invite only that's fine. But I really, really think you guys should decouple account creation from the requirement of being approved by a server. It's a barrier to entry that imo will prevent many users from registering.

Edit: If not global auto-approving of user account creation, I think what would be a more reasonable request is an indicator of whether a server auto-approves account creation or whether it is invite only.

Adda,
@Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

This manual approval of new accounts was implemented to battle spam and floods of newly created bot accounts. Sadly, it is a necessary evil as people do not seem to be able to behave themselves (and create bot account to spam), as is always the case.

jazir5,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Tradition8474,

    The only reason I don’t think that could happen is because unfortunately people would abuse the fact that there accounts can’t be removed

    Adda,
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    I disagree. That would not solve the issue with spam bots. Furthermore, the word centralization is forbidden in conjunction with Lemmy in a single sentence :) You cannot create a decentralized self-hosted federated platform and have a centralized account approval server. That goes againts everything decentralization stands for.

    jazir5,

    deleted_by_author

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    SmokeInFog,
    @SmokeInFog@midwest.social avatar

    First, moderation is not censorship. Second, it's up to whoever is hosting the instance to moderate as they see fit. I'm sure there are or very shortly will be plenty of unmoderated instances

    jazir5,

    We are in total agreement on that! I think a better solution to what I'm suggesting would be a simple indicator on the join-lemmy.org site on whether a server allows automatic account registration to join the server or if it is invite only. Would that be agreeable to you? I think that would obviate the need for any other solution I've mentioned here.

    Adda,
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    That is possible, implementable a clear in its functionality. You can try to open an issue im the websites GitHub repository and see what the developers and others think. Alternatively, you can try to implement this functionality yourself and create a PR for it.

    jazir5,

    Thank you for the suggestion, I'll go ahead and do so. I sincerely appreciate the input, that is actionable.

    Outsider7542,

    I don't know that it is meant to be a drop-in reddit replacement. That's an assumption that goes too far IMO. I think it's certainly intended to have a lot of similar functionality as reddit, but the nature of it being decentralized tells me right off the bat that it's not a drop-in reddit replacement. That being said I do think there is a balance in striving to make it easy for people to onboard, especially reddit users looking for something else, but I also understand that keeping out bots and spam is critical.

    It's easy to say it should be changed because we don't know what would happen if they changed it, but if the site did become overloaded in spam, that would be even more of a detriment than slowing the growth because people have to wait for approval. At least while others are waiting for approval, the people already here can use and enjoy the platform. If you get rid of that and it becomes loaded with spam, then no one gets to enjoy the platform.

    jazir5, (edited )

    but if the site did become overloaded in spam

    But if the protocol for Lemmy is already decentralized, it would still be entirely up to the admins of the server to allow instant account approval or not, would it not? Lemmy.ml is not the entire lemmy protocol, Lemmy.ml gets to decide the rules here, and banning hate speech accounts from approval is a totally legitimate decision on their part because they don't want that kind of spam here.

    That's what mods are for on reddit, so I'm currently failing to see the problem. Moderators exist on Lemmy servers right? That's how reddit solves the problem, why can't that work the same way on Lemmy?

    The admins of the server have every right to ban users they don't want on their server or to make their server invite only, I am absolutely not contesting that. Their space, their rules. A violation of the servers rules should absolutely result in a ban.

    Outsider7542,

    That’s what mods are for on reddit, so I’m currently failing to see the problem. Moderators exist on Lemmy servers right? That’s how reddit solves the problem, why can’t that work the same way on Lemmy?

    I think the difficulty with a place that has such a low userbase that then grows rapidly is not having a lot of established active moderators. There's a lag time to some extent to getting active and responsible moderators. Plus not being a moderator nor an admin on Lemmy, I don't know the capabilities they have at hand, but I know with reddit the moderator tools were built up over time. All of the automodding capabilities they have now didn't exist at the beginning, and the automod tools are what allow them to handle such high numbers of users. I suspect Lemmy probably doesn't have extensive automated moderating tools at their disposal at the moment if I consider other deficits that Lemmy has at the moment.

    jazir5,

    How do you feel about a simple tag/indicator on the join-lemmy.org site that indicates whether a server has open registration or is invite only?

    Adda, (edited )
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    You are completely right. Disabling the approval feature equals unmoderatable instance (when the bots come), because a human (a moderator) simply cannot compete with a Python script posting spam every few milliseconds. Such instances are therefore instantly defederated by others in order to protect themselves.

    jazir5,

    Would automod functionality and keyword ban list for usernames serve to alleviate those concerns you have? If not, is there any solution you would propose that you think may work to solve that issue?

    Adda,
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    Sure, they would. But for that, you would need to implement them first, and implement them right, which is a highly challenging endeavour. I could imagine that this is on a backlog for Lemmy development, but it will take a while before any usable implementation is applicable.

    jazir5,

    Cool, then we're in agreement! I've opened a github issue per your suggestion here: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/2899

    darkfoe,

    Due to the nature of how the protocols work, there needs to be some sort of server attached to an account

    jazir5, (edited )

    Wouldn't it be possible to create server that simply functions as an account registration server as a way to which automatically approves users when they attempt to create an account? That would easily solve the problem. Disallow any posts or interaction, it could just function as a way to register accounts.

    Edit: Perhaps that goes too far. Instead, a simple indicator on whether a server allows automatic account registration or not would suffice. Would you guys find that to be an agreeable solution?

    XPost3000,

    Yeah, had to use an auto-register server for Mastodon cuz I didn't know which servers would actually accept an account request

    Fortunately for Lemmy they have a default instance that was pretty fast to get the account on, pretty sure it could go full auto but for the moment they're trying to ward off troll n whatnot

    jazir5, (edited )

    Edit: upon reflection, a much better solution in my eyes would simply be to indicate whether a server auto-approves user account creation on join-lemmy.org or if they are approval only. Would any of you find that to be agreeable?

    XPost3000,

    Yeah, I really hope that Lemmy eventually goes auto with account registration on their default instance, but still letting you choose to take a shot at an invite-only instance if you really wanted too

    jazir5, (edited )

    Agreed!

    Edit: If not global auto-approving of user account creation across all instances or automatic account registration on the default instance, I think what would be viable is an indicator of whether a server auto-approves account creation or whether it is invite only.

    darkfoe,

    There's no central account system with lemmy, so what you're asking for isn't really possible. It's more or less by design choice. Ie, nothing is centralised at all, so no one can shut down the whole fediverse or control its content.

    But, an open instance IS possible. Just the software is in its infancy so there are not strong anti-spam measures in place yet, so it may take a bit for someone to put in the effort to run one.

    jazir5,

    The problem I have with this is it's too high a barrier of entry. There is absolutely no way Lemmy can become a real reddit competitor with an invite only account approval process imo, because any barrier to entry whatsoever will dissuade many users from joining.

    sexy_peach,

    What do you propose? There were a couple of people here constantly making accounts called hitler_was_awesome and they were posting gore.

    jazir5, (edited )

    Allow subs to have automod functionality that will automatically ban users with usernames containing hate speech or if they make comments that contain hate speech. Reddit has automod functionality, I see no reason lemmy cannot as well. It should be up to the server admins whether they want to implement an automod system if they choose to do so.

    sexy_peach,

    It should be up to the server admins whether they want to implement an automod system if they choose to do so.

    It is. Server admins can do whatever they want.

    jazir5,

    Then the solution I suggested would already solve the problem you described IMO.

    Adda,
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    If someone implements it on the per-instance basis, it works and is not resource heavy, great. But it will be a while, before someone actually gets there.

    jazir5, (edited )

    deleted_by_author

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    Adda,
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    As I replied to another thread, that would be possible. You can try to create and issue for it.

    sexy_peach,

    hmm I am not convinced it would work.

    Lemmy had a slur filter in the early days, that blocked certain words from being able to be posted, and a lot of people hated that. Dunno why, but well.

    jazir5,

    An automod slur filter should be server specific and implemented by the admins who run that server. Decentralization requires that any user can create any account that they want in my opinion. Trying to censor anything is antithetical to Lemmy's stated goal. Lemmy's devs don't have to allow hate speech servers to be discoverable from the join-lemmy site, but banning an account wholesale like this for any reason defeats the purpose of this platform.

    sexy_peach,

    I was just talking from experience. I believe that the spammer could easily create a new account and then just spam offending images, whatever.

    jazir5, (edited )

    I mean, again, automod could easily be configured to solve that if they build it into the platform. A server being invite only is totally fine to me, reddit has that functionality as well. I fully support the ability to make private servers with account approval processes.

    sexy_peach,

    Yes, I wouldn't mind a theoretical automod that helped with admin work. I am not against that. I am trying to explain how we arrived at the situation we are at today, where all servers are with application only.

    jazir5,

    deleted_by_author

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    sexy_peach,

    Your account is 3 hours old, what do you think is the ethos of Lemmy?

    jazir5,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    sexy_peach,

    Where do you read this, on lemmy or the website? https://join-lemmy.org/docs/en/index.html

    sexy_peach,

    Because someone might spam disgusting content because they don't like lemmy.

    FOR WEEKS THERE WHERE PHOTOS OF PEOPLE EATING SHIT IN THE TIMELINE A COUPLE OF TIMES PER DAY.

    jazir5,

    deleted_by_author

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    sexy_peach,

    The ethos of open source is that anyone can use the code to do whatever they want with it.

    That's why the code is public, for lemmy as well.

    You know, there was a nazi lemmy server, a while ago. It just wasn't connected to all but one or two very small other right-wing lemmy servers. Because everyone else blocked them.

    jazir5,

    So wait, do they even still exist on the platform at all, or are the servers themselves and the users as well entirely banned from the platform entirely?

    sexy_peach,

    There is no platform. There just are independent servers that make their own decisions.

    jazir5,

    Okay then to be honest, I'm really struggling to see the problem with what I'm saying here, since it seems to me you are agreeing that independent servers get to make those types of decisions. I'm a little confused and could use some clarification on what you mean.

    sexy_peach,

    Let's just stop this conversation here ^^

    jazir5,

    No prob! If you don't want to continue discussing that's entirely your prerogative, and I won't push the issue further.

    Adda, (edited )
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    Just to explain, each instance can make their own decisions, but then they risk being defederated by other instances for their decisions. On their own instance, they can still function however they want, though.

    jazir5,

    Gotcha, so basically they're detached from the main network and thus don't appear in other users feeds?

    Adda,
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    If by main network you mean the largest federated network (the largest number of federated instances together), then it is precisely that.

    It is then up to each user to decide where to create an account. On any single instance? On multiple instances where some might be federated with only a small subset of instances and others might be more general instances federated with multitude of instances, for example on the largest federated network? It depends on what the user comes here looking for. Whatever works for them is great.

    darkfoe,

    My guess is once the software matures some some more open instances will pop up. The basics are still being figure out and honed, and with the higher user accounts the past few days admins are already struggling to keep things running. I've seen several of the larger instances go up and down all day (hence why I fired up my own for myself)

    jazir5, (edited )

    Question then, would a viable solution to what I'm suggesting be simply adding an indicator of whether servers auto-approve user account creation or not on the join-lemmy.org site?

    darkfoe,

    Yep! That would be the place for them.

    I'm not aware of any open instances that exist at the moment though. Eventually once some automatic moderation tools start developing they'll probably start (slowly) popping up.

    jazir5,

    I opened a github issue for this here: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/2899

    jazir5,

    Yeah as long as there is an indicator of whether a server is an open instance or not would immediately solve the issue I'm describing, for myself at least.

    sexy_peach,

    but banning an account wholesale like this for any reason defeats the purpose of this platform.

    Accounts can't be banned wholesale. They can only be banned by the admins of a server.

    Adda,
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    It was. Again, you could do with the slur filter whatever you wanted as an instance admin. And admins of other instances can defederate with your instance for your decision, too.

    jazir5,

    I fully and wholeheartedly support that. I think the best solution now after some reflection would to just add an indicator the join-lemmy.org server listing page on whether a server automatically approves accounts or if they are invite only. Would that be agreeable to you?

    darkfoe,

    Chances are this will change on some instances once more anti-spam things are put in place.

    Don't compare lemmy to reddit directly - think more of the days of internet forums. Lemmy is kind of a return to that with some reddit features I've personally found, and the average person was able to handle registering accounts with that in the past.

    jazir5,

    Chances are this will change on some instances once more anti-spam things are put in place.

    Fair enough!

    Adda,
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    It is not invite-only. Most instances are approval-only. As I said earlier, as of now, it is a necessary evil.

    jazir5,

    Approval only, I used the wrong terminology. Apologies.

    Adda,
    @Adda@lemmy.ml avatar

    No worries :)

    ArtVandelay,

    I got approved pretty quickly. I thought, with the sudden influx, it would take days.

    For AO3 (a fanfic site), I remember having to wait days to get my account.

    I don't think waiting for an account for such websites is so urgent. And it probably serves as a deterrent.

    jazir5,

    And it probably serves as a deterrent.

    Precisely, and I don't necessarily think that is a positive thing. I can understand if Lemmy servers don't have the system resources to maintain a large simultaneous userbase as a reason to keep them invite only, since unlike something like Reddit it's decentralized, and therefore many servers would not be able to afford sufficient hosting to accommodate such a large userbase, at least initially.

    However, if the Lemmy network's goal is to grow quickly and gain adoption, putting an artificial impediment in front of users wanting to register seems counter to that goal.

    ArtVandelay,

    I imagine the devs and people who have worked on Lemmy and the Fediverse would love nothing else but to have these platforms be the mainstream social networks, but I don't think it's all run like a corporation focusing only on growth.

    I think quality over quantity is imperative. Not for nothing we are all fleeing cumbersome and crumbling platforms like Twitter, Facebook and reddit.

    aksdb,

    Why has it become such a problem to wait for something? Especially if it's only necessary once? You didn't register on any lemmy instance the past months/years, but suddenly you need the account now instead of in a few minutes/hours?

    jazir5, (edited )

    I'm merely thinking about growing Lemmy's popularity. Considering that there will soon be a large exodus from reddit, removing as many barriers to entry to the Lemmy platform/ecosystem will speed up adoption and more of the users leaving reddit would be likely to join Lemmy.

    Any artificial barrier to entry will dissuade some portion of users from registering, regardless of how small that contingent may be. I do not want any user to be dissuaded from joining the ecosystem because there is a mandatory invite only requirement for all servers. I'd prefer for the Lemmy ecosystem to grow as fast as possible.

    Decentralized social networks rate of adoption is already very slow, and we can see that from the limited userbase of Mastodon which launched 7 years ago and has approximately 4.5 million users compared to reddit's 1.6 billion. Yes, Mastodon launched in 2016 which is much later than reddit did, since reddit launched in 2005.

    However, reddit has several orders of magnitude more users with only 11 years of additional time being open.

    I'd just really like to see the platform take off.

    aksdb,

    I fear if there would be large influx of new users, many instances wouldn't be able to keep up. I think currently the only way to scale an individual instance is vertically. I doubt that many of the admins are willing or able to throw much more money on it. Working across the federation with indiviual instances struggling with the load would then likely diminish the whole experience.

    In other words: it might be an advantage if the growth doesn't happen too quickly. Even though this is not directly the intention behind the registration process.

    dxcz,

    Mm. My thinking is that many of those coming are going to, inevitably, compare with their sign up experience with Reddit and other platforms.

    This whole “federated” thing is already novel and is going to require a learning curve — which for lots of folks will already bring apprehension. Anything unusual, like a manual review process, could be a turn off.

    That, plus the sort of privacy nuts that live on Reddit (“why am I here? What is this, immigration? none of your business”), makes for more and more friction IMO.

    scrambled1839,

    deleted_by_author

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    jazir5, (edited )

    Basically a little tag for each server on the join-lemmy.org server page that which indicates whether a server allows you to automatically create an account or is not invite only. I think that would suffice.

    ginerel,
    ginerel avatar

    That's not how decentralized social networks work.

    LimitedBrain,

    Hear me out First you take a decentralized network with individual user accounts Then you take those user accounts and centralize them on one server Which server? THE server. Then you migrate the posts to that server Then you list the server as a company publicly to be traded Then I buy it Then I run it into the ground Sincerely, -Elon <3

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