Removal of piracy communities

Earlier, after review, we blocked and removed several communities that were providing assistance to access copyrighted/pirated material, which is currently not allowed per Rule #1 of our Code of Conduct. The communities that were removed due to this decision were:

We took this action to protect lemmy.world, lemmy.world’s users, and lemmy.world staff as the material posted in those communities could be problematic for us, because of potential legal issues around copyrighted material and services that provide access to or assistance in obtaining it.

This decision is about liability and does not mean we are otherwise hostile to any of these communities or their users. As the Lemmyverse grows and instances get big, precautions may happen. We will keep monitoring the situation closely, and if in the future we deem it safe, we would gladly reallow these communities.

The discussions that have happened in various threads on Lemmy make it very clear that removing the communites before we announced our intent to remove them is not the level of transparency the community expects, and that as stewards of this community we need to be extremely transparent before we do this again in the future as well as make sure that we get feedback around what the planned changes are, because lemmy.world is yours as much as it is ours.

CliveRosfield,

Fucking retarded. Why wasn’t there a community census in this at least?

applejacks,
@applejacks@lemmy.world avatar

be careful, soon they’ll start banning you for using no no words

KrisND,

Because it’s not us who have to pay the bills and handle the legal issues?

CliveRosfield,

By that logic we better disable images altogether because someone might link an image of the Eiffel Tower at night since that’s illegal and the instance owners might have to pay legal bills hurr durr

KrisND,

I’m seriously thinking your post was meant as a joke. There is so much information in these comments already about piracy. Your on a completely separate area and obviously not familiar with laws. Check out google.

The crime of taking a photo has nothing to do with piracy.

CliveRosfield,

You missed the point but that’s ok

PmMeFrogMemes,

Based on the down votes and comments I think a lot of people could benefit from reading the whole post…

gila,

I read the whole post, understand the reasons and respect them. Ultimately piracy is one of the topics I’m here to read about, so these changes still make lemmy.world a less usable instance for me and I don’t like that

PmMeFrogMemes,

yeah that’s valid I feel you. I’m in the same boat

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah but it’s also weird that people downvote it. As always, voting is not meant to signify agreement vs disagreement, rather “exposure” vs “bury”.

So I suspect a whole lot of people wouldn’t want others to read the statement, were it not pinned? 🤷

Neoncamouflage,

That’s never been how people use votes and I’m not sure why there’s any expectation for it to change now.

Stuxnet,

I have a question. Let’s say there’s a piracy community on a different lemmy instance. I can still subscribe to it and interact with this lemmy world account, correct? Is there any difference at all between communities on your “home” instance versus external communities other than it showing as {community_name}@{lemmy_instance}?

Edit: oh I see, they actually banned access to the piracy community of a whole different instance too? That seems crazy?? I can understand removing piracy community from your own instance but what on earth is the rationale behind removing access to a whole different servers community?? I’m going to move now I’ve seen this.

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Because in German jurisdiction, linking to illegal content can bring with it fines. It’s ridiculous, but that’s where we are, more specifically we have a lawyer who is insanely prolific at sending out legal threats and asking for ridiculous amounts of money for this.

And now the problem: Due to the way ActivityPub works, one instance “pulls” the links posted on another instance to itself. At that point, lemmy.world is hosting links to content XYZ, not the other instance. Hence they’d be legally actionable. And being the largest instance of lemmy, this is the one any lawyer firm wanting to make quick bucks or any music industry wanting to appear like they’re doing anything worth all the money to their consitutents would go after this one, not any other instance.

The protocol is a bit of a double-edged sword: Yes you’re not hosting the content, but if links can be fined then those get pulled over essentially without you being able to do shit about it.

nomadjoanne,

Then why the hell would you host anything instance in Germany?

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Because you might be - and I know this can surprise some - a German?

Among other things it makes a lot of things easier. For example, assume you get sued for something with your server that you’re hosting in, say, Sweden. Now you need a lawyer both in Germany and in Sweden (most likely, though one in Sweden might be enough depending on what is happening) to handle the case, as usually the swedish lawyer defending you will want to talk to legal representation of yours over where you live. Not exactly making it any better, is it?

Of course, you could host your server on some utterly remote place no one can viably take you to court, but then they could still sue you (personally, as the person running the place) in your home country anyways, so it’s not like you get around anything this way.

nomadjoanne,

Naive. First off there are many places with very good technical service where you won’t have issue. And secondly there are ways to do it well. Do it through a firm, do it through a friend from there. There are options. I’m certain there are countries and firms where they are absolutely not obliged to tell some German lawyer who owns the domain.

I don’t know if these people are Germans or not. But this site isn’t hosted in Germany.

CaptainEffort,

The problem is that these communities never linked to any form of illegal content. It’s against their rules to do so. So no laws were being broken.

BadAdvice,

I read it, and it’s nutless. I’m hearing “we preemptively protected ourselves from legal liability, showing our willingness to do so again without notice or discussion. However, we pinky promise to not do it again unless we feel like it”. And what I’m inferring is that this platform will sell me out if it’s legally convenient for them. That’s not encouraging.

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

legally convenient

Hey, you host your own instance, and you do the legal fights to defend people you don’t know at all from elsewhere on the world with your own private money. Good on you! 🍻

nomadjoanne,

Yup. Absolutely cowardly. I very much doubt they talked to a decent lawyer. A lot of lawyers (perhaps most) out there will give you dumb opinions, like, “Oh, that sounds a bit wishy-washy to me. I would advise it.” Without actually properly sitting down and saying, “Yes it’s illegal (or no it’s not) in this jurisdiction, based on this interpretation of the law. There have been some cases that suggest this interpretation, etc.”

That’s not to say the answer is always possible to know. Maybe there hasn’t been any similar cases to test some legal interpretation. But the moment these people trot out vague moralizing answers or answers that seem too simple you know they’re full of it.

A lot of things are possible if you talk to a decent lawyer that has metaphorical big balls.

Twitchy1,

I didn’t look for that community and I may not support it… But I’ll not be staying an instance that wants to censor other instances from its users. Too many other examples of things being censored by lemmy.world in these comments.

craktok,

Wow. It’s amazing the replies here. If you want to steal other peoples work, then go elsewhere. No one owes you the right to steal other peoples content.

HeartlessDusk,

corporate shill, i bet you purchased adobe

KrisND,

I have purchased many things, they have employees and bills to pay to put out a better product.

Wage_slave,

Someone paid for winrar like a chump.

craktok,

Yes I purchased the films I love, pay to go to the cinema to see great new films, pay to stream the music I love and pay to watch the best Premier League football.

badbrainstorm,
@badbrainstorm@lemmy.world avatar

Most artist are super happy people wanna steal their shit!

Only capitalist swine really give a fuck.

It gives me pause…

Edit upon further thought:

Pirates really should have their own bay/instance

craktok,

Is that what you tell yourself so you can sleep at night? Pathetic.

diffuselight,

I’m guessing the idea here is to eventually sell out to a corporate operator

Vytle,

Your actually retarded. One lawsuit from a large corpo and your fucked. Take a look at Gary Bowser, motherfucker cant get out of that debt even if he declares bankruptcy. But nah, you cant access muh pirated content so its about what you dont like.

diffuselight, (edited )

Gary Bowser did not host free expression babe. It’s You’re as in you are, but that’s ok, you’ll eventually get a hang of language too and then you can move on to law. And one day you’ll be less bullshit spewing than ChatGPT and can even get a job.

UmbrellAssassin,

Sad. This instance showed me how amazing Lemmy could be. It’s not me, it’s you. Please get better.

bustrpoindextr,

No, it’s you. Host your own instance and stop complaining. That’s the point of the fediverse.

Or shit, just use the other instances that already exist.

Please get better.

vinyl,

I’m surprised this is so down voted, I guess there’s a bunch of airheads in this community

talos,
@talos@lemmy.world avatar

I can understand this. This is a server hosted by an individual who doesn’t want the potential legal headaches that may arise. Everyone is free to make another account on another instance, or create their own instance.

Sygheil,

The logo(s) may be different, but the methods are the same.

Ivyy_LemmyW,

This is why Lemmy won’t grow, a lot of instances are forcing their users to create another account on other instances, this was my third account due to the blocking of some instances like this…

mysoulishome,
@mysoulishome@lemmy.world avatar

Did you know that beehaw doesn’t allow downvotes? I am currently waiting for a call back from the aclu. They will not get away with this.

KrisND,

You’ve got to be trolling. Lol

mysoulishome,
@mysoulishome@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah just being a smartass. The feddiverse is open and free…instances are run by people who can do whatever they want. That’s the beauty of it.

nexguy,
@nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

It’s not forced… it’s the point. People SHOULD have multiple accounts

Underwear,

Until accounts can be migrated or users are disconnected from the instances, this will be a huge limit of Lemmy over other social media. Having to maintain multiple accounts on the same platform simply to view all the content you want will deter users.

nexguy,
@nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

Having multiple accounts is a core part of lemmy and is why it’s so integrated into the apps and quick to access. People just are used to a single (commercial)entity controlling everything for them that they are having a hard time realizing they need to control it themselves. I agree it would be nice to link accounts in a more seamless way so they are less tied to instances but that is not a huge price to pay imho.

talos,
@talos@lemmy.world avatar

You can always host your own instance. Then you can choose what is blocked and what isn’t.

Zatore,

Honestly fuck off. I came to Lemmy because I’m sick of people telling me what I can view and how I can view it. Guess I’ll go find another instance again.

nexguy,
@nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

You can view whatever you want anytime you want and your don’t need kemmy.world’s permission to do it. This is the point of the fediverse.

teuniac_,

This is the point of the fediverse.

But users expressing their opinion about the policies of the Lemmy servers they use is part of that

KrisND,

Its personally owned, someone is still legally responsible for it. Lemmy isn’t designed to be a anonymous place.

If I made an instance and was paying for it, why should I listen to the users saying Nah, just do it. Its not them on the line and they later can just hop to a new instance.

Lemmy provides full control where you want to be.

Carighan, (edited )
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Of course, but the reason is also understandable, no?

Imagine you run your own instance. Imagine after starting it up with sparkly eyes and going “OMG, people are joining my instance”, one day a friend makes you aware “Hey you do realize you’re hosting a social media community, yeah? Have you ever looked into the legal part of that? Like what content is or isn’t okay, what users are allowed to post according to your country in correspondence to each other, how you’ll handle DMCA and Netzdurchsuchungsgesetz takedowns, and who represents your site in court if you get sued?”… and then you realize fuck, you have no clue.

Now imagine then realizing you’re the largest instance, and hence the target for anybody wanting to come after Lemmy as a system in any legal way.

It’s fun to rant at the devs. However, unless you’re the admin(s) of either lemmy.ml or beehaw, the only two instances large enough to potentially worry about this, you really don’t have a good perspective on things. But imagine you were one of these instances:

  • On the 21st of June, Lemmy as a whole reached 600k confirmed users.
  • A lawyer firm writes you a letter, making you aware of linking to illegal content. This is fineable under some jurisdictions and with some content, Germany is one of these, where lemmy.world is hosted.
  • The fine they can threaten you with depends on the reach of your link. Well, since Lemmy is federated, they cite 600k people exposed to that link for which you’re responsible, the link is on your server after all (an effect of ActivityPub).
  • It’ll probably be something like a few hundred euros per exposure, but multiple that and they’ll be threatening you with some crazy amount.

Now, of course, the number of exposures, the total sum and the idea that it’s your link can all be attacked in court, to various degrees of ease.

However, you need lawyers for that. Specifically, you need money that makes those lawyers outlast the other side, as in these cases it’s mostly about whether your money bin is deep enough so you can even see the case through to the end.

Imagine that, as a private person: Someone suddenly gives you the prospect of having to pay 5-6 digit legal fees. That’s just the legal fees, this is all assuming you win, otherwise you’re also looking at some 7-9 digit figure maybe. Would you keep federating with piracy instances? Or would you also go “Fuck it, this is my hobby project and IANAL, this isn’t worth it”?

(edit)
Basically, from the perspective of the lemmy admin: If you want them to stay federated with piracy content, would you also be fine if they put your name (and you sign documents to this effect IRL) on the site as the legally responsible person for all content on it? Probably not, right? So saying they should keep content up is a bit weird. They’re responsible for it, they are the only ones with any say in it. If you want your own say, make your own instance. But be aware that this also makes you legally responsible for anything, of course.

f4te,

totally agreed.

not just removing communities on lemmy.world but on other instances?

totally uncool.

I think I’m gonna be doing the same.

BreadKof,

Well, you can create your own instance with your own rules then! Nobody is stopping you

applejacks,
@applejacks@lemmy.world avatar

true, but moves like this is why this site will never take off.

KrisND,

Unless you make your own unregulated one and take the responsibility? Doubt you will though…

applejacks,
@applejacks@lemmy.world avatar

no I won’t.

that’s the point.

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Ah, too angry to understand the problem, too lazy to do something about it. Essential modern internet troll.

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

You mean it’s why it’s the largest instance and hence, has taken off? 🤔

harry_assman,
@harry_assman@lemmy.world avatar

QQ: Have there been other communities removed and was it communicated?

I have just realized that c/Shrooms has been banned too, but I cannot find a statement regarding this particular ban.

Are or will there be more bans? I am not asking to complain about it or make remarks about which the decision is correct to me or not, but rather point out the lack of communication or unfortunate communication.

Indicah,

!shrooms

Check the pinned post for details on the ban

mightnotapply,

Dude I felt totally bamboozled when c/shrooms went missing… if you haven’t yet, check out the new community here 8)

GodzillaFanboy129,

I doubt there will be a statement on the shrooms one as it was a niche community, with far less outcry than the piracy ones.

Also to all the people sticking up for lemmy.world and saying the ones bothered by this should just leave without a fuss. If it wouldn’t have been for the people who were and still are being vocal you likely wouldn’t even have had this announcement or transparency (which is what many of them were vocal about), and the mistake wouldn’t have been realized, they’d just keep posting updates to the discord and left us here on the service in the dark about announcements, so would you rather have a people complain when something was done wrong and badly and get transparency or would you rather be left in the dark to wonder why something was done or happened.

theDIESEL999,

This is a bit concerning… why is Lemmy censoring things that not even Reddit is censoring? This seems like a bleak warning for the future of the platform. I understand censoring illegal content, but if nothing is hosted on Lemmy, then what’s the problem?

Lifecoach5000,

It’s not “lemmy”. It’s lemmy.world and I feel like there should be a clear distinction here friend.

PeleSpirit,

Lemmy isn’t, world is. You can host your instance with all of the piracy communities you want.

PmMeFrogMemes,

First by remaining federated, due to how federation works, lemmy.world actually downloads content from the instance hosting the piracy community. meanwhile reddit only allows links, not actual content, uploaded to their site.

Second this is just a small group of people not a tech company. Reddit can hire a team of lawyers to defend them and developers to develop tools to remove pirated content. I doubt lemmy.world has resources like that

arin,

I can still access r piracy on Reddit, i thought lemmy.world had more freedom of speech than corporate sellouts. 💀

zipdog,

Reddit has more lawyers

Astaroth,

yeah this is really concerning

Carighan,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Totally not the point. Reddit is a large company, they have lawyers to defend themselves in prolonged court battles. Lemmy.world is a privately owned hobby project, the owner cannot do that.

Second, and more importantly in this case, lemmy.world is in a different country and hence subject to different laws.

WereCat,

I do understand that you would remove them if they were also hosted here… But they are hosted on other instances so I don’t understand the issue? Is linking to that specific instance via comment the same issue as if they were visible for everyone on this instance? Or even mentioning it now in the OP like it is?

bustrpoindextr,

It downloads to their instance, that’s how the federation works. So it’s effectively also hosted here.

WereCat,

If that’s the case then OK, thanks for explanation.

bustrpoindextr,

No problem, and it makes sense from a technical perspective if you care.

Lemmy instances are not operated by a single entity, which means their uptimes are going to differ, possibly dramatically. If the federation simply linked to the other instances, then if say Lemmy world went down, all the instances that federate with it would have a lot of broken content.

Instead, what happens is that the content is still interact able on the other instances, because there exists a copy. When Lemmy world comes back online, content gets synced and merged from the instances that were still available.

It allows for a natural redundancy, so what you can do, is create another instance all your own, curate only the things you care about, and have that data populated on your instance. Then the next time we’re in an upgrade cycle you can still view previous content from Lemmy world and others instead of constantly just getting a 503 error.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • lemmyworld@lemmy.world
  • kavyap
  • DreamBathrooms
  • modclub
  • tacticalgear
  • GTA5RPClips
  • magazineikmin
  • thenastyranch
  • Youngstown
  • InstantRegret
  • rosin
  • slotface
  • everett
  • mdbf
  • cubers
  • JUstTest
  • ngwrru68w68
  • normalnudes
  • cisconetworking
  • Durango
  • khanakhh
  • Leos
  • ethstaker
  • tester
  • anitta
  • osvaldo12
  • megavids
  • provamag3
  • lostlight
  • All magazines
    •