Hexbear Discussion Round 2

I figured since their admin has asked them to stop participating over here it may be worthwhile to get a new discussion going that is primarily blahaj. I’m almost certain they’ll still be upvoting so keep that in mind as that may skew things. Worthwhile to check in from instances that have already defederated them. The previous thread definitely left a bad taste in my mouth but what do y’all think?

Old thread can be found here

EDIT: With regards to the post on new federation guidelines here: hexbear.net/post/352119

The current top comment is:

Every instance that has talked shit and got dogpiled should be thanking us for breathing some life into their dead and boring ass websites.

Erika2rsis, (edited )
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I will summarize my views that I left on the first thread:

  • While I do not agree with mandatory pronoun marking, or with needing to have one’s neopronouns approved, the number of Hexbear users with neopronouns in their names indicates that the instance is extremely pro-trans and inclusive of all non-binary identities.
  • Ada has very poorly handled the response to her “people of NATO” statement in a way that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth regarding the administration of Blåhaj Lemmy. I have noticed that a comment left by a Hexbear user saying “death to Nazis and transphobes” is gone now as well, which if this was an act of a Blåhaj Lemmy administrator, further reflects poorly on Blåhaj Lemmy’s administration.
  • For as much as I’ve enjoyed some of Hexbear’s communities, such as !transenby_liberation, Hexbear users have often been weird, annoying, or wrong as well. However, I do not think that being weird, annoying, and wrong is cause for defederation, and would prefer that defederation be reserved for illegal content and neo-Nazis, lest we create a culture that is hegemonic in its beliefs and values.
  • The ideal solution is for individual users to be able to block Hexbear, but this appears to only be possible using uBlock Origin and half-possible with one of the mobile clients for Lemmy. Until this becomes a feature of Lemmy itself, I believe that Hexbear should be defederated if this is the will of a majority of Blåhaj Lemmy users.

I will also state that I am biased in my views due to the fact that I am an anarchist who doesn’t use the word “tankie”, I am very strongly opposed to respectability/civility politics, and I am very careful about SIFTing every bit of news that appears on my feed. For these reasons, my experiences with Hexbear and its users will be markedly different from those with differing views or social media practices, a number of whom report experiencing “harassment, brigading, disinformation, and bad faith arguments”. I am sure that these people are being honest, but I can only speak from my own experience.

Lastly, I would like to note that I read that a number of Hexbear users were opposed to federation to begin with, due to the potential disruption this could be for the site’s culture, and as Hexbear’s culture (e.g. emojis, which improperly scale on other instances) are taken to other sites. It is therefore my conjecture that some fraction of Hexbear users may be intentionally going against their admins’ words and being annoying on other instances specifically in order to get Hexbear defederated. I do not fully understand Hexbear’s culture or site politics, so I would prefer to hear from Hexbear users on this matter: since this thread is local-only, Hexbear users may wish to send me a DM explaining the controversy on their site regarding federation, and if my conjecture has any merit.

I may edit this comment with other thoughts as they come to me.

Edit: I received this DM from a Hexbear user regarding federation politics on the site. I am sharing this with his permission. I will create an audio version upon request.

Relevant links in the DM:

@JohnBrownsBussy2 also sent me a message reading, "[…] Also, it looks like our admins have posted new rules concerning federated conduct. Some people are being grouchy about it, but I do think moderation is going to improve: hexbear.net/post/352119?scrollToComments=false"

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

hexbear.net/post/352119

Top comment on this post is

Every instance that has talked shit and got dogpiled should be thanking us for breathing some life into their dead and boring ass websites.

hexbear.net/comment/3744380

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

The top comment is that, and the rest of the comments are saying what…?

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Primarily deflection and shitposting. I see exactly ONE comment in praise of the new rules.

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

The top-level comments I see in order are,

  • The aforementioned comment
  • Asking for an update to the UI to clarify when a post is federated and what that means for user behavior
  • Shitpost
  • A post in favor
  • Saying that Lemmy needs to allow local-only communities
  • "[…] I still think that federating with so many communities at all the same time was a bad idea […] I hope we take a more measured approach moving forward.“
  • Shitpost
  • Shitpost
  • Disappointment at one aspect of the rule change but understanding its necessity
  • "okie”
  • "[…] wasn’t dunking 99% of the reason we federated in the first place? […]"
  • Asking about if users should censor names when "dunking"
  • Shitpost
  • Asking for clarification about one of the new rules

A lot of shitposting, sure, but I don’t see how you can really call any of that “deflection”.

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

The comments I consider deflection:

  • Asking for an update to the UI to clarify when a post is federated and what that means for user behavior (Full text is: Okay, can we get like, posts from other sites to have red backgrounds with caution tape all over so we don’t forget? [mischevious emoji])
  • Saying that Lemmy needs to allow local-only communities (true but not really the problem)
  • “[…] I still think that federating with so many communities at all the same time was a bad idea […] I hope we take a more measured approach moving forward.” (most instances do not have these sorts of problems)

Ultimately the tone of the instance and its infectious nature on the fediverse are the issue. Particularly as it does not seem that the admins/mods truly have the ability to reign in their users.

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Also, their admin telling them not to participate in this thread seems to have worked, so maybe they have more of an ability to reign in their users than it seems? It might be best to wait a while to see the impact of their rule change before defederating.

Erika2rsis, (edited )
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I figured it was those comments you were referring to, and I can sort of see where you’re coming from now that I think about it, since it should be on the users to behave even without changing Lemmy’s features. Still, I don’t think it’s particularly malicious to discuss how to improve the site, and how they could’ve approached federation differently. I think that functionality shapes behavior, so these are the types of things that should be discussed.

Edit: And regarding “most instances do not have these sorts of problems” — I don’t think it’s good to treat the majority experience as the universal experience.

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

And regarding “most instances do not have these sorts of problems” — I don’t think it’s good to treat the majority experience as the universal experience.

Don’t get me wrong hexbear is absolutely anomalous. I do not think that is an argument in favor of federating with them.

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I don’t think them being anomalous is an argument in favor of not federating with them, either.

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Them not jiving with the broader threadiverse is absolutely reason to defederate. They should probably be in their own network of leftist shitposting and trolling instances. Places with similar tone and customs around dogpiling.

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I still think it’s too early to reach a verdict.

amethyst,

I can’t think of anything less trans-friendly than mandatory pronoun marking.

I quite liked this quote from Isabel Fall (more about identity than pronouns specifically, but still related!)

“We make boxes that seem to enclose a satisfying number of human experiences, and then we put labels on those and argue about them instead,” she says. “The boxes change over time, according to a process which is governed by, as far as I can tell, cycles of human suffering: We realize that forcing people into the last set of boxes was painful and wrong, we wring our hands, we fold up some new boxes and assure ourselves that this time we got it right, or at least right enough for now. Because we need the boxes to argue over. I do not want to be in a box. I want to sift through your fingers, to vanish, to be unseen.”

ZeroEcks,

They basically just make it required so you can’t tell who is trans, and the trans users support it so I don’t really have an issue with it.

melmi,
@melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I think mandatory pronoun marking is a bad thing in IRL spaces, but in online spaces it’s probably less of a big deal, especially when neopronouns or even None is an acceptable answer.

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I essentially agree with the quote, but I can think of plenty of things that are less trans friendly than a digital pronoun circle. My point is that there is a very large trans population on Hexbear, and we can only assume that the trans population there are also universally the types of trans people who are open to sharing their pronouns publicly anyways — or else they would most likely just join a different instance without that requirement.

5ubieee,

I agree with almost everything you said here, even though I don’t participate in any of the communities on that instance I would probably start looking for another instance to use if we go through with defederation. I’d like to be able to participate in discussion with queer folk and other leftists (including those that I have differing opinions from) across all of lemmy because to me that’s the value of using a federated platform in the first place.

I’d also like to note that I’m not a “tankie” or a ML for the sake of clarity, but I do value left unity because none of these reductive arguments over international politics actually matter when you’re doing real work and helping others, which is what this is all about in the first place.

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Ada has very poorly handled the response to her “people of NATO” statement in a way that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth regarding the administration of Blåhaj Lemmy. I have noticed that a comment left by a Hexbear user saying “death to Nazis and transphobes” is gone now as well, which if this was an act of a Blåhaj Lemmy administrator, further reflects poorly on Blåhaj Lemmy’s administration.

I really do not think it’s fair to go after Ada about this. I think this is such a weird hill to die on.

Erika2rsis, (edited )
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

If you say so, but I just feel like this reflects on a broader issue I’ve noticed of the admins here being overly concerned with civility or respectability, and it just felt very avoidable.

Edit: And besides, my life is nothing if not a series of weird hills to die on. I think I’ve always had a problem with refusing to let things go, which can be both a strength and a weakness.

Lols,

not from blahaj, but considering your concerns about federating with illegal content i feel like its important to note that calling for violence against or deaths of people or groups of people is illegal in large parts of the world, especially those that federation users will be from

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I can’t find any laws that would apply in Norway’s or Minnesota’s criminal codes. The only laws there that I can find concern threats against specific people and threats to commit terrorist acts. People saying “death to Lorem-Ipsumland” is most likely just going to be taken as free speech.

When I’m referring to “illegal content” I’m honestly specifically thinking of websites used in the proliferation of drugs, snuff, and sexual abuse material (incl. drawings thereof), and websites used to plan real-world criminal acts. It’s also illegal to share memes based on anime fanart due to copyright infringement, but you don’t really see anyone worrying about that, do you?

Lols,

im sure that theres more uproar over hexbear for political reasons, but i feel like there are other valid reasons for copyright issues not causing as much concern as perceived death threats or calls to violence

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Honestly, if you ask me, it’s politics all the way down.

Lols,

if youre unable or unwilling to accept that someone might feel more strongly about perceived death threats and calls for violence than copyright law for non political reasons, im not sure what to tell you

Erika2rsis, (edited )
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

What would you consider to be “non-political”? You’re under no obligation to respond, and if you don’t want me to respond again, you can say so.

Lols, (edited )

being generally opposed to death threats or calls to violence on a website you use, regardless of the political affiliations of the people making them, and regardless of the political affiliations of the people they’re made towards

i interpreted your comment as believing that the above is not actually happening, and that any issues with death threats are actually entirely because of who is (perceived to be) threatened and who is (perceived to be) threatening them, and i feel like that is unfair

i understand how this might be a misinterpretation, for instance because you consider ‘being against death threats or calls to violence’ to inherently be a political ideal

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Generally opposed for what reason? Is it maybe a moral judgment, and if so, where did you get your morals from? Is it more that it just makes you feel uncomfortable, and if so why does it make you feel that way? If it’s something else, then what is it and why? Do you think that there may have been a difference of experience that led one community to find calls to violence to be acceptable, while your community finds that type of behavior to be completely reprehensible? What sort of difference of experience might that be? Have you ever thought to look into that?

These are the questions that I want you to seriously reflect on. Again, you have no obligation to respond, you can even dismiss this whole comment and say that these are all loaded questions, and tell me to stop replying if I’m being annoying and you’ve had enough. All of that is completely fair.

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Sorry, I didn’t see that you edited this. Yes, that would be unfair.

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

overly concerned with civility or respectability

I for one do not mind admins that are concerned with civility or respectability. Forums should be about talking to people and I will always prefer to talk to people with civility and respect.

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

This comment has been bothering me for the past two hours. I just don’t know how to respond to this perspective which clearly comes from a very different lived experience. Assuming you were a Redditor before, which types of subreddits did you spend time on? I spent most of my time in the past few years on TGCJ, which could be described as the most “anomalous” of the major trans subreddits. I see a lot of the TGCJ spirit in Hexbear, in how anti-respectability-politics and anti-tone-policing it is, and this is probably why I’m so invested in defending Hexbear even as a non-member.

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Because I have moderated communities that live and die by the quality of their discussion and I understand that once you slip too far, you will not come back. Rabid circlejerky instances that promote dogpiling do not facilitate discussion and as a whole are bad for the health of the threadiverse. If people can’t have a reasonable discussion here they will simply leave. That does not mean that I think hexbear should not exist, but they should probably be contained to their own corner of the broader threadiverse.

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

If only there was a way to be a user of both and browse them as one feed, this whole discussion wouldn’t be nearly as consequential.

melmi,
@melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

TGCJ is fine, but TGCJ culture stays in TGCJ spaces because outside of TGCJ, it’s just transphobia. I get that that place is great for people, and I respect its right to exist and have no problem with the people in it, but I don’t want to be confronted with TGCJ memes every time I log into my safe space.

That’s kinda how I feel about Hexbear’s behavior so far. My understanding is that Hexbear has a very supportive culture, and that their “dunking” happens in the context of being supportive of their own? But that’s not what we see out here. Out here it just seems like they’re toxic and hostile, and even as someone who ostensibly should feel left unity with them I just feel alienated.

Maybe it’s my fault for not being familiar enough with their meme culture. But at the same time, they should be making more of an effort to be aware of what space they’re in and the fact that they’re in community now, and not everywhere has the same norms.

That said, I still am glad we’re not defederating. The admin team over there seems to be making headway, and I think we should let them try to improve before we cut them off preemptively. My hope is that the culture shock will pass with time.

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Couldn’t have said it better myself. That’s why I added rules for CW’s, post titles, and the /j tone indicator to Blåhaj Lemmy’s TGCJ, after seeing someone post something absolutely vile that ended up showing up in non-members’ feeds.

ada,
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Ada has very poorly handled the response to her “people of NATO” statement in a way that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth regarding the administration of Blåhaj Lemmy

What I was trying to say is that wishing death on people is not acceptable, but wishing for the downfall of organisations is perfectly acceptable.

If that leaves a bad taste in your mouth, I don’t know what to tell you.

And if the bad taste in your mouth was because you thought I was saying something else, or that I was trying to make some sort of implicit comparison to terms like “people of colour”, then hopefully this clarifies things, because it wasn’t any of that.

Erika2rsis, (edited )
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

or that I was trying to make some sort of implicit comparison to terms like “people of colour”, […]

Honestly that just seems like people reading too much into things, even though “people of NATO” is still a really unusual and imprecise phrasing. If English is your second language and it was sort of a heat-of-the-moment edit, then phrasing things oddly is understandable, and it’s really bad that people were assuming ill intent just because of unusual phrasing.

Anyways, sorry if I’ve been too impolite and added too much to your stress, you do good work overall (and if this seems like groveling, sorry about that, too) — I’m not going to change my views, but it’s also probably best not to keep prodding at such differences, in your den. I wasn’t aware of this unwritten rule when I signed up and I’ll make sure to respect it regardless of how I feel about it.

ada, (edited )
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Honestly that just seems like people reading too much into things

That’s what this whole thing has been, beginning to end. Sometimes deliberately so.

It’s not ok to wish death on people. It is ok to wish for the downfall of oppressive organisations. Some people believe the latter is only achievable through the former, and use “motte and bailey” ambiguity to say the latter but mean the former.

That line is the point of disagreement, and because I do disagree, people used the often deliberate ambiguity to paint me as ignorant.

The truth is, it doesn’t matter what I said, because that ambiguity (by design) makes it impossible to navigate without meaning getting lost. And because of the nature of hexbear, as soon as I was seen as even implicitly “defending NATO”, it was open season

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

It’s not ok to wish death on people.

Would you like me to try to explain again why I disagree, or should I just tuck my arms and pout about it?

ada,
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I get why you and others disagree. What I don’t understand is why so many people insist that I have to be ok with wishing death on really bad people too, or otherwise I deserve the shit that happened in that other thread.

It seems like a really strange point to turn on someone over…

Erika2rsis,
@Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I guess people are just growing more and more tense nowadays, “There’s something in the air”, I always say. I’m really sorry that all that happened.

melmi,
@melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Hexbear is… a lot. It really does feel like they swarmed the last thread. I wish there were a way to lock threads to the local instance.

They seem to really take glee in harassment of “liberals”. Their justification of “if we are harassing you you deserve it” doesn’t hold a lot of water for me, because they seem to harass anyone who doesn’t think the exact same way as them. I certainly get the hostility towards liberals, but while that’s all well and good in their little quarantine zone over there now that they’re in the larger Threadiverse their whole “dunking on libs” thing just makes lemmy an exhausting place to be.

And then they turn around and mock everyone for being bothered by their hostility. I want to like Hexbear, but I’m not sure whether they’re good federationmates.

I hope we don’t have to defed, but if Ada decides to it’ll certainly be earned.

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I wish there were a way to lock threads to the local instance.

Might be worth putting this feature in an automod bot in the long term.

Xtallll,
@Xtallll@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

could making a community like Blahaj.meta and only federating with Blajhaj.zone be a workaroud?

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

This is pretty slick. Should work as far as I can tell. Maybe an outsized amount of work to host another instance though.

Lols,

*not from blahaj

it wouldnt show up in local, so you might miss some folks that stick exclusively to blahaj

crossposting with a local post would fix it somewhat though i guess

Gormadt,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

When I heard that hexbear was a lefty instance that was federating I was initially a bit excited

Then I went to hexbear to check it out and saying it’s a lot is an understatement

The one’s I’ve encountered here and only other instances on some of my alt accounts have some pretty shit views in regards to some current events

Their (at least every single one I’ve encountered) strong stance on letting Ukraine get steam rolled because “No war but class war,” is definitely one that rubs me the wrong way. Considering how much that statement used in that regard missing the very idea of defending one’s self.

Basically the ones I’ve encountered are straight up tankies, yeah they seem to support trans rights and other queer folk but it’s definitely hard to associate with them when their political views or so shit on other regards.

If we defederated from them I’d support it, though I think that perhaps encountering more people outside of their echo chamber they’ve been living in for years might dampen some of their shittier views a bit.

But god damn are they fucking hostile to anyone in the out group.

Silverseren,

Also the “No war but class war” part means they don't actually support LGBTQ+ people when the chips are down. They will absolutely throw "identity politics" under the bus if it benefits them to do so.

Gormadt,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Yeah I’ve already seen one refer to culture war and identity politics as something to abandon in favor of class war as something that “Dems need to do” so I’d say it’s not even a stretch just them needing to receive enough push to say the quiet part out loud.

Of course now that I’m trying to find the comment I’m referencing it looks like it’s been removed as I’ve checked my alts and can’t seem to find it.

Hell I can’t even find the post though that’s not surprising as it was (I think) a US news story in one of the World News communities about a pro LGBTQ+ teacher being forced to flee their state or something.

Eldritch,

I’m a leftist. Not a Leninist or hexxbear or whatever. I am very for supporting everyone generally. Lgbtqia+mnop absolutely as well. But I think point of the phrase despite them being horrible at articulating it. If you look at the people spreading culture War, sparking the reflexive response of identity politics in return. They are typically members of wealthy powerful classes. Or the rubes they manipulate. By castrating said classes or even abolishing them. We could largely crash culture wars and the perceived need for identity politics in return. That shouldn’t mean we stop supporting the people who need it however.

The people funding and pushing the culture War want their minions to be attacked with identity politics in return. It polarizes and separates both groups. And keeps them from realizing their common interests. Such as abolishing the ownership and Leisure Class. Re-investing in society and average everyday working people.

The question is how do we respond? We cannot abandon those being attacked. But we’d be more successful if we found a way not to alienate those whose Minds have been poisoned by the culture War bullshit. Unfortunately trying to reason with a culture warbot is like trying to squeeze IQ points from a turnip. You’d be more likely to get blood. It’s honestly just easier to argue with them and increase the Divide.

moonsnotreal,
@moonsnotreal@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

The last thread was incredibly toxic thanks to hexbear users. If that is what they do on discussions about them then they are in effect nothing more than trolls. We should Defederate.

Barricky,

I personally have just been blocking any of their communities that pop up because I am not a fan of how they handle themselves.

Gormadt,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I’ve been doing the same since I got to Lemmy with Lemmygrad, and now with Hexbear

Demographics,

I agree with defederation based solely on the fact that nothing can be argued without it developing into an utter shit-fest with them. They only have memes and a spectrum of weird to abhorrent takes politically to give.

What, overall would we be losing vs gaining the ability to use the rest of Lemmy in peace?

Gormadt,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

This is exactly how I see it

Honestly I find them more toxic than the people over at Lemmygrad and that is by no means a support of those people either, they’re both shit.

lingh0e,

Exactly. I’ve been on boards, communities, channels and networks on dozens of different variations of internet based communication for more than two decades now. I’ve dealt with these types longer and more often than I’m proud to admit. It doesn’t matter how well spoken or well intentioned a few of them are, the people making the most noise on their behalf are shitheel trolls who aren’t worth engagement.

Mark my words, they’re trying to make a leftist version of The_Donald.

It’s up to us to call them on their bullshit before it really takes hold.

melmi,
@melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

They’re not “trying to make” anything, Hexbear is one of the oldest and most established Lemmy servers out there. They’ve been around longer than either of our instances.

lingh0e,

So?

Gormadt,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I think what the other person was saying is that they’ve already created the lefty version of The_Donald and honestly I have to agree with take

They’re so good damn toxic that I’ve literally blocked more of them in the last 48 than I’ve blocked people in general since I moved over to Lemmy

melmi,
@melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Not quite what I mean. I don’t think Hexbear is comparable to the Donald at all. They may be rude, but they’re a hell of a lot less hateful. I was just saying that they already are what they are, whatever you consider that to be.

lingh0e,

They don’t need to be hateful to be counterproductive. Even if they are legit, their methods aren’t helpful.

melmi,
@melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I just thought it was weird that you were saying “they’re trying to make a leftist version of the Donald” and “we have to call them out before it takes hold” like they’re not already here and in force. The problems we’re having right now descend from the just how established they are as a community, and the Federation isn’t as established yet, so there’s a lot of friction and no one quite knows how to handle the other.

There’s no conspiracy here, it’s just culture shock.

lingh0e,

Fair enough. I’m not suggesting it’s a conspiracy. Just that we shouldn’t let ourselves become complacent to their shit-slinging.

No one took the subreddit of shitheel meme slingers seriously in 2015 either. We tried to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Look where we are now.

ezri, (edited )

I hadn’t noticed an issue with hexbear until the recent post. They definitely gave me a bad impression of their whole instance with their behavior.

I definitely think defederation is in order. Unless I’m mistaken, the most their admins have done to stop the brigading has been a comment on the post saying to stop interacting. No post on hexbear, nothing.

They seem like a bunch of shitty trolls. Acceptance of trans people aside, there’s not really a reason to continue to federate with an instance like that.

EDIT: they just added to their code of conduct disallowing the kind of behavior we saw yesterday. Still unsure if remaining federated is a good idea

Gormadt,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Yeah I’d say we can expect more as an admin clarified it’s just for other instances meta posts. In the same post where they updated their rules.

I’d recommend checking the thread and sorting it by top. it’s pretty telling what they support.

https://files.catbox.moe/bxo5b9.png

alycat,

It would be a shame to defederate them. While they can be abrasive and a bit trolly at times, I think they add very diverse opinions and insights compared to the rest of the community. The most thought provoking comments I’ve read during my time here have come from hexbear users, even if I think it’s a nonsensical take it’s at least unique to me.

The brigading in the other post probably pissed a bunch of people off, but I couldn’t help but find humour in that whole situation. It didn’t seem too bad, just mildly annoying. It doesn’t feel like it’s a widespread enough issue to warrant defederating, but only time will tell I guess.

nan,

This was essentially how I felt about them before, I had nearly made the first comment in the original thread to say something like “sometimes annoying but their code of conduct seems pretty compatible” - I don’t agree with the original proposal.

I wasn’t impressed by the response from them, although it did seem to be a few users and I’m not sure if we shouldn’t just write it off to the heat of the moment.

Also one of them in the original thread suggested an interesting history podcast about US imperialism (Blowback), the bashing of which I am totally down with.

jsnc, (edited )

I commented before on that thread (before hexbear members got to weigh in) and today I still don’t think permanent defederation is warranted.

Hexbear absolutely needs to do better and some of the issue could also be with Lemmy’s technical limitations. For example, Hexbear emotes are bugged on other instances and also the fact that hexbear and other instances were able to comment on that thread which muddled the objective of the post. Only blahaj members should have participated and we know that for the better.

Defederation to me means complete erasure of an instance that threatens the integrity of the host. I joined Blahaj to be express my queerness on lemmy and Hexbear isn’t taking that away from me. Nor do I believe (imo) there was evidence of that in the 1st thread.

If it’s too inconclusive then I’d say not to defederate and instead focus on making sure Lemmy as a whole can be improved for its users.

alycat,

Putting this down as it may be relevant. It was posted very recently:

hexbear.net/post/352119

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I edited my post to mention this. I think it’s notable that the current top comment over there is:

Every instance that has talked shit and got dogpiled should be thanking us for breathing some life into their dead and boring ass websites.

Gormadt, (edited )
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

“Enjoy our abuse, it’s good for you.”

Yeah I’d say that’s a shitty take seeing so much support over there

Edit: And this response from one of their admins about dunking on people being the point of federating in the first place is pretty damning.

https://files.catbox.moe/bxo5b9.png

ada, (edited )
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

After speaking to one of their admins and seeing the change in the rules on hexbear, I’m happy enough with the outcome.

Trans solidarity is incredibly important. It’s the reason this instance exists. I prioritise that.

Hexbear (and Beehaw) is one of the only Lemmy instances that genuinely prioritise the protection of their gender diverse users, and honestly, if for nothing else, I believe it’s worth a bit of discomfort to find a way of staying connected.

Gormadt,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

And what’s your opinion on this admins take from their post on their recent rule change?

It’s one of the highest upvoted comments on the thread.

https://files.catbox.moe/bxo5b9.png

Or the highest upvoted comment in that thread that’s pretty blatant on how they feel about coming over to the rest of Lemmy?

https://files.catbox.moe/39c72r.png

ada,
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Which one is the admin in that post?

Gormadt,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

That would be Carcosa

Here’s the same image but with the admins name uncensored.

https://files.catbox.moe/802afx.png

dueytwo,

Im very saddened to hear this. Sounds like staying in an abusive relationship because “They have good times too”. I hope you rethink this decision, or myself and atleast a few others will stop using this instance

ada,
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

All I can say though is the reason I am making the choice not to defederate now is because I believe that this is the best chance of developing a large positive trans userbase on the lemmyverse. At the moment, unlike the broader fediverse, lemmy and kbin are quite hostile or indifferent to trans folk. Despite hexbears bullshit, one thing they are, is strongly supportive of trans rights. And if the bullshit is kept to their own instance, then we can benefit from the voices of their trans users.

If they can’t keep their bullshit under control, then we’ll cut them off.

Why not give it a chance and see how it goes?

ezri,

The users of hexbear just are very bitter that we didn’t adore their aggressive comments on the last post. I really just have a hard time seeing anything good coming of remaining federated.

They just call everyone who doesn’t like their behavior a whiny liberal.

some_guy,

Keep in mind they have been in an echo chamber for three years. It’s not a surprise that there may be an adjustment period where they work on their culture and come out better.

When I think of all the times that I’ve marveled at the person I’ve become (through working on myself), I’m really impressed that I got where I am. People change and grow and adapt and evolve. So do communities.

I like that Blahaj wants to try to find solidarity. I hope for this to be the attitude on as many instances as possible.

ezri,

Why should we have to suffer for their inability to socialize positively outside of their bubble?

some_guy,

Because we’re hoping for something awesome long term, not because we want utopia right-this-minute.

Strawberry,

Another positive is that their feistiness will be directed at any transphobic bullshit in the wider fediverse

Snowpix,
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

Trans solidarity isn’t beneficial when they’re also brigading, harassing and abusing people, and disrupting threads constantly. They might be allies in terms of LGBTQ, but they are actively harmful in every other way.

MollyMirrorshades,

First comment for me, but I’ve been a blahaj member since the migration. When I learned about hexbear, I was really excited because I lurked r/cth back in the day and always liked their content a lot. I’m a GenX queer anarcho-syndicalist who is terminally irony poisoned and moderately online, so it’s basically my people.

So I spent a bit of time looking at what they’ve built over the last 3 years and it was impressive. The reasons behind the mandatory pronouns are fantastic. As a cis person (sorry), whenever I specify my pronouns, it’s an attempt to normalize specifying them so that it isn’t just for trans people. That’s why they added them in hexbear, and when they did that, it outed a whole bunch of transphobes and shitty people, who were then removed from the instance. Sounds like good praxis to me. Seeing cynical interpretations of that sucks.

They also don’t allow downvoting, same as us, for many of the same reasons.

What we’re seeing right now is a culture shock because they’ve only been loose in the fediverse for a week, and the folx over at hexbear are having a struggle session about it. They’ve been in a bubble for a while and they seem to know it They didn’t know their emojis were so big, they’re working out guidelines for engagement, they’re trying to rein in the users who are getting too aggressive (including admins and mods DMing people).

It would be really cool if we at least gave them a couple more weeks to get the hang of things. Their communities are easy to block and the instance as a whole is very value aligned with blahaj. Queer and leftist unity is important.

temeela,
@temeela@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

That is a fair point, though, as a Catalan anarchist, as much as I believe in the unity of the left, I cannot and will not collaborate or tolerate tankies, history knows we tried that in times of need and it did not work out.

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Being harassed and called a lib for criticizing their dogpiling doesn’t feel like unity to me.

MollyMirrorshades, (edited )

Not minimizing that at all, a lot of that wasn’t cool, but it was a handful of users from a very large instance, so it wasn’t necessarily the fault of the whole instance. They’re having internal arguments about that last thread, and many of them feel gross about it (notice they aren’t here this time). They’re also gonna have some new users who are too eager to dunk on libs to think about it for 5 seconds - a human problem, not an instance one.

Editing to add this link hexbear.net/post/353633Wherein hexbear tells us all their universal safe word, and links to their code of conduct.

CertifiedOmelette,

Safewords are agreed by participants ahead of time, happening to know their magic word isn’t the same thing.

There’s a big difference between not bowing to respectability politics and respecting the culture of other instances.

I’d be willing to see if they improve but they’ve got a fair bit to make up for after that last thread.

Zymii,
@Zymii@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I’m with you and feel the same way. I think that many of them came in really hot and somewhat misdirected. I think with the chance the good will outweigh the bad.

I’m also a former /r/cth poster though too, and while I’m not a ML, I’m also not repulsed by the general flavor presented by the average poster there. That’s said my impression is that the average hexbear user was more of the moretankiechapo type than the Bernie supporter type. Not a problem for me but I can see why there would be culture shock.

Either way I’m glad this is the direction Blahaj is taking if only so I can doomscroll more leftist shitposts without changing instances.

Switchboard, (edited )

I’d honestly still prefer defederation. If they were malignant on their own instance that’s one thing, but they made this instance feel pretty unwelcome to me, and I’ve seen way too many red flags to be able to be comfortable having them around. Trans solidarity is no reason to put up with abuse. I know I’m not really an active participant here so this is more or less meaningless to most, but I’d rather leave and go through my transition alone than to stay and have to deal with their terminally online behavior. I don’t think it should be our responsibility to rehabilitate them, nor do I think that’s possible given the relative size of our instances.

Edit: I also feel it’s worth pointing out that they’ve been defederated from several other instances for malignant behavior and I’ve seen all of that here.

Edit 2: Just saw we’re staying federated with them, so it looks like this is my stop. To all of the fine people here at blåhaj.zone, thanks so much for being a bunch of cool people, I never really chimed in but you all just living your lives helped me figure out a lot of stuff about myself, and I wish you all nothing but the best! I can’t stay a member of an instance that welcomes tankies though, so happy trails.

dueytwo,

Understandable. I might also stop using Blahaj because of this. Have a good one

ToastedPlanet,

I shared what I learned about Hexbear in the previous thread. As far as interacting with Hexbear goes, if we keep our interactions to sharing memes and support for trans people then I think we will be fine. I like the idea of getting along with them, but they have to meet us in the middle. If they continue to be disingenuous about their political views then I think we will have problems.

melmi,
@melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

What do you mean by disingenuous? I feel like they’ve been very upfront with their political views, to the point of causing problems with how upfront they are.

ToastedPlanet,

I told them upfront that we moderate tankies. I told them I thought the best way for us to get along would be for them to be honest. I said I don’t mind communists, but I do have a problem with authoritarian communists. They insisted they were just communists. One of them seemed to imply I was being presumptuous by putting “authoritarian” in quotes.

Then after about three days of talking, they started giving me authoritarian communist talking points. You can check my comment history. But it’s all in the I Love Twitter Rule post. When I gave them my opinion that they were defending authoritarian government’s like North Korea and the Taliban the two people in question suddenly stopped talking.

Then I posted what I found in the previous meta thread. The same person who had defended the Taliban came on and tried to safe face. I suddenly got a bunch of other replies on the I Love Twitter Rule thread too. One person started defending North Korea and China, and reciting Russian propaganda all in one comment.

The problem I had with it, is those people could have just admitted that they agreed with these authoritarian communist talking points from the get go. Rather than doing that, they tried to gaslight me. If a group of people don’t want to outright admit what they believe when prompted, then that’s an indicator that there is something wrong with those views and that those people know it.

Strawberry, (edited )

Do you really think they identify as authoritarians? I’m guessing from their perspective, it is often a matter of a lesser of two evils question or trying to separate and acknowledge the good in some governments in addition to decrying the bad. Many of them are proponents of critical support of existing socialist movements—meaning support plus criticism. It is a practice of empathy and materialism rather than idealistic good vs. evil thinking.

Side note, how is anyone supposed to know what people mean by Russian/Chinese propaganda when US liberals label anything that isn’t on the official US Democratic Party approved list of acceptable thought as Russian/Chinese propaganda?

ToastedPlanet,

It’s not about what they identify as. It’s about if they agree with authoritarian views.

Tankies aren’t arguing one side is less bad than the other. They claim authoritarian regimes have done no wrong. That oppression is preferable to freedom.

Side note, how is anyone supposed to know what people mean by Russian/Chinese propaganda when US liberals label anything that isn’t on the official US Democratic Party approved list of acceptable thought as Russian/Chinese propaganda?

Please explain what you mean by this. I do not want to guess. What is the official US Democratic Party approved list of acceptable thoughts?

Strawberry, (edited )

It’s not about what they identify as. It’s about if they agree with authoritarian views.

If you ask a communist whether they are authoritarian and they don’t identify as such, they are going to say no whether or not you would later determine them to be authoritarian. I was trying to explain the difference in worldviews causing that disconnect

Please explain what you mean by this. I do not want to guess. What is the official US Democratic Party approved list of acceptable thoughts?

There is a loud subset of hyper-liberal-types on lemmy and especially reddit that will see any criticism of US foreign policy, the CIA, the OAS, NATO, and many clearly biased and Western capital-aligned NGOs, or any acknowledgement of positive aspects/accomplishments of post-revolution China or the former Soviet Union and declare that the person making that criticism is a Russian/Chinese bot. It’s as if some people think that the US and its allies can do no wrong, and China and other socialist states or movements can do no right

paris, (edited )

I feel like every time I see a comment from hexbear, it’s a tankie with the most insane take possible. I often see them use their emotes/memes not to add to a conversation, but to deflect or avoid directly responding to criticism. I also keep seeing entire comment threads taken over by hexbear as soon as one of them replies to someone. Almost like a bat signal goes out to call in reinforcements. I’m sure that’s mostly a product of them being terminally online and not necessarily malicious, but I have to block like ten hexbear users for every one I come across that isn’t like that.

It’s worth noting that most of the hexbear users I see are under politics stuff posted on large instances like .world and .ml, so these issues may be less prevalent or even non-existent on posts hosted on blahaj.zone. But fuck I really hate the energy they bring on. Honest to god I almost stopped using lemmy altogether because of how bad it gets under most of the posts I come across. I’m sure a lot of hexbear users are fine, but I don’t like constantly blocking half of a comment section because the tankies came out of the woodworks to say some dumb shit about Ukraine or whatever. I doubt I’m the only one constantly blocking tankies from hexbear.

I’m mostly posting this to see if others feel the same way or have had similar experiences. I’ve searched for posts about hexbear a couple times over the past week and haven’t seen one until here right now. I’m going through the first post from two days ago and it seems like I might just be coming across a very loud minority from their instance. If that’s the case, then defederating seems extreme and unnecessary. But if this is just what most of hexbear is like, I’d prefer to defederate and let the non-tankies make a new account here or on another instance that we federate with.

Update after two days: I’m officially casting my vote as “defederate from hexbear please god,” final answer. The tankies and trolls are exhausting and I’m sick and tired of dealing with them. Either they can’t be reigned in or they simply aren’t. It’s not even just their politics. Now that I’ve been thinking consciously “is this comment’s bad politics indicative of the whole instance” I’ve noticed that a lot of people from hexbear are kind of just assholes. I don’t want to deal with them anymore. “The good ones” can make another account here or somewhere that we federate with. But honest to god, most of their instance is a drain on my mental health and I can see that I’m not the only one from blahaj zone that feels that way.

I know they come off as trans-friendly, but they also let tankies run defense for authoritarian countries that don’t treat queer people like me well. If hexbear keeps up like this I’m just gonna stop using lemmy altogether. Logging on isn’t worth the excruciation of dealing with their instance. I know Ada wants solidarity with other trans-friendly instances, but I don’t think the tankies and trolls at hexbear care about that, and I don’t think the rest of their instance cares enough to get them to chill out. It feels like they’re taking advantage of blahaj zone’s charitability to keep vomiting authoritarian apologetics and brigading any comments or posts that call out that behavior. Dealing with that isn’t what I signed up for.

In the interest of transparency, this comment was at 38 upvotes when I added this update.

spaduf,
@spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

almost stopped using lemmy altogether

I definitely empathize with this

nan,

It’s not a bat signal, likely the thread popped up into their “all” feed and a bunch see it at once.

Some of the stuff is because they were already a very established community with their own culture, who has only just recently federated with others. They are bringing their culture, which is full of memes and shitposting, out to where a good portion of normal Lemmy users don’t even know how to post a picture, and it is a lot all at once. It does seem that their admins want to have relatively good citizens, and it seems like most of what Blahaj really cares about is compatible (they are possibly even more extreme with caring about it). Being disruptive in political threads does not seem like a good reason to defederate an instance.

ada,
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

In this case, it was very much a “bat signal”. They posted about it and linked straight to my post in their “dunk on a lib” community

some_guy,

Ada in another post:

That’s the issue I raised with their admin. The admin deleted the post in question and made changes to stop it happening again.

ada,
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Yep, they did. Which is why I’m pushing to remain federated. They took action and addressed the issue. But there very much was an issue before they did

ada,
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Almost like a bat signal goes out to call in reinforcements. I’m sure that’s mostly a product of them being terminally online and not necessarily malicious

In the case of the last defed thread, it was because someone posted a link to one of my posts in their “dunk on libs with shit takes” community.

That’s the issue I raised with their admin. The admin deleted the post in question and made changes to stop it happening again.

Going forward, it’s going to come down to this. If they dogpile on any blahaj lemmy community, or any external queer or trans communities frequented by our users and impact the ability of blahaj members to use those spaces, we’ll be talking defederation again. I’m hopeful that it won’t come to that though

Mr_Buscemi,
@Mr_Buscemi@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

That explains why I saw a bunch of them commenting on a few random posts over the last few days. Randomly a comment had a reply from a hexbear account and then over a dozen replies in a comment chain of mostly just hexbear users.

I thought it was just luck that they all saw each other to meme together, but them having a community for posting comment links makes sense.

neuracnu,
@neuracnu@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I’d be suspicious of drawing those kinds of subtle lines in the sand. Malicious groups savor those kinds of guidelines so they can dance around them and test their firmness.

The spirit of their dialogue is designed to be disarming, giving them a foothold in this community. Their chosen behaviors and methods of influence are not what I want to see in a virtuous fediverse.

Maybe this is because I have a guarded heart after being burned a lot, but if you’re giving someone “one more chance”, that’s a good sign you’ve given them too many chances already.

Snowpix,
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

I’m not from this instance, but I know exactly what you’re talking about and had the exact same experience. I had to block over 20 accounts per thread when they’d flood in to spread their nonsense and harass people, and it almost made me quit the site entirely. They’re like a horde. When my instance defederated with them, it was a night and day difference for how much better the site is to use. Comment sections are actually usable and you can discuss China/Russia/Ukraine without them flooding in and disrupting everything. As someone from a defederated instance, I believe it is a good idea for you guys to do the same.

Catoblepas,

I’ve never heard of them until now, but nothing I’m seeing makes me feel like I’d miss anything if blahaj defederated from them.

Gormadt,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Straight up I’ve blocked more people from hexbear than anywhere else

At this point I’m looking forward to defederating from them due to how toxic they are

Kes,
@Kes@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I switched from Infinity, the client I’ve been using for years since Reddit and love dearly, to Sync, just so I could block the entire instance. The only people I’ve blocked on Lemmy are Hexbear users because all they do is spam anti American, anti capitalist takes everywhere they can and spam comment sections with essays denying the wrongdoings of any nation that is nominally communist. They’re more preachy and aggressive than street preachers, and my experience on Lemmy has been significantly more relaxed with them blocked

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