Both sides ARE bad. The trick is to use critical thinking and realize that one side is “stupid and misguided” bad and the other is “literal nazi, genocide against minorities, and also very stupid” bad.
Well the democratic president just sidestepped congressional reviews to give more tank shells to the Israelis but is struggling to provide Ukraine with materiel and shut down giving them fighter jets.
Almost everyone with national level political power do. An open letter from House democrats to the White House urging them to work towards a ceasefire agreement had TWELVE signatures. Out of 212. And one of the 12 even tried to quietly remove her signature from it without the public noticing.
They may not hate Palestine, but they sure as hell don’t care enough about Palestinian lives to not support the fascist Israeli government and its genocide.
That’s begging the question in the traditional sense of the term in formal logic. First of all you have to establish that it is in fact a genocide. While what the IDF is doing probably counts as war crimes, I have yet to see a convincing case that it’s genocide in a legal sense. We’ll see. I’m more than willing to change my mind in light of new evidence or a stronger argument than I have seen thus far.
Sometimes but not always. There’s more to it in international law. That said, I realize that in arguing caution before leveling accusations of genocide, I am in the minority in this instance. My take is based on what I’ve read of expert legal opinion on the subject and not on my own evaluation of the IDF’s moral position.
The long and short of it is that there are matters of intent that have to be shown in order to have a case for genocide. Thus far, regardless of how we think about the IDF vis war-crimes, I have yet to see a convincing argument for genocide on a legal basis.
You may say that this is a distinction without a difference, and while I’m sympathetic to that idea, I still think it’s worthwhile to maintain these sharp legal definitions.
Ok so you don’t consider what they are doing genocidal actions.
Forcing people out of their homes, cutting off all electricity, food, and water while having them in a complete barricade and shutting down or extremely limiting aid, while destroying 80% of housing is Genocide.
If you feel the need to try and hide behind obfuscation then you do you but I can call a spade a spade.
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
The ideological signifying here, though, is squarely situated within the language of American politics. All Lives Matter was a reactionary counter to Black Lives Matter, a distinctly American political movement. Similarly, “both sides suck” is something which has been repeated ad nauseam about American politics. As such, the meme suggests itself that it’s about American politics. At least that’s how I’m reading it. If the OP meant it to be about Israel and Palestine, I think they could have framed it better.
But I do think there is a legitimate ACAB angle here, to slice it by power dynamics instead: All political leaders are bastards.
It’s not just one nation vs another, it’s also civilians vs the political elite. So while I agree it’s wrong to say “both sides are equally to blame”, there are other useful perspectives. I think.
It’s not just one nation vs another, it’s also civilians vs the political elite
Breaking it down further: it is the proletariat vs the dictatorship of capital (the mechanisms by which the capitalist class collectively rules) representing the interests of the capitalist class.
Depends on the specific conflict you’re talking about. Is this about American politics? Palestine? Ukraine?
For example I wouldn’t say that the dictatorship of capital is an especially pertinent aspect of the ruling elite when discussing the Palestine conflict, but it certainly is when discussing American politics.
I mean yeah, colonialism and capitalism are tied together at the hip, and Palestinians resisting the settler state of Israel is pretty directly related to resisting capitalist violence.
Throwing in the standard disclaimer of “my family was affected by the holocaust and I know several anti-zionist israelis who think Israel doesn’t have a right to exist” because some people get really weird about this opinion.
Everything is related to everything, so if course colonialism and by extension capitalism plays a part. And while capitalists are absolutely using both sides for their own gains, I don’t think there driving force of the conflict comes down to capital, but a conflict of non-economic ideologies.
But, it’s a very large conflict with a very long history, so not only am I not an expert, but the nature of the conflict may have many aspects that change over time.
I don’t think there driving force of the conflict comes down to capital, but a conflict of non-economic ideologies.
Well, you’re incorrect. Israel is a settler colonial venture, that is where the conflict comes from, not a difference in religious beliefs.
But, it’s a very large conflict with a very long history, so not only am I not an expert, but the nature of the conflict may have many aspects that change over time.
The region was really peaceful before the colonial project actually, I mean of course the ottoman empire wasn’t great but there wasn’t a lot of notable ethnic conflict in the region.
By “long history” I meant decades not centuries. Still long enough to be multigenerational.
Also there are more ideologies than just religion and economics, and conflict can be over a combination of them. Just because one party is colonial, doesn’t mean that all conflicts are necessarily going to be primarily over capital. That will of course be a part, but it’s also not like one day all the Jews in Europe were like “let’s go kick out all the people from this area because lolz”.
I’m trying to avoid talking about my personal beliefs here, but I’m definitely not of the opinion that both sides are equally bad.
I absolutely agree that colonialism is a huge (biggest?) factor though, and that goes all the way back to when European powers chose the land and kicked out the native people.
I disagree. If I’m being honest, I care too much, but I’m overwhelmed by a combination of sadness, anger and fear. I have no idea where to start to fix our societal problems. Anyone who sticks their neck out gets their head cut off. Look at what they’re doing to Assange for exposing the truth. Every president since Nixon has been a fucking war criminal.
Hence people falling back to “I don’t care” as a defense mechanism. The world is too big, and there’s too much awful happening, to emotionally invest in all of it. Not and stay sane. It’s so much easier to narrow focus to your own life and pursuits, and let everything else be what it is.
And so we get these useless platitudes, because “I don’t care about that” can be both true and socially unacceptable at the same time.
I hate this 2-party system, and I loathe the DNC and the neo-liberal elite. That said, the Republicans haven’t fielded a palatable candidate in my entire lifetime.
Thus, like many Americans I’m forced to politically pinch my nose and vote for the geriatric, corporate-and-billionaire funded elite of the American “left” because the alternative after the dust settles after the primaries is unthinkable.
The American citizenry is fucked, and I fear the only way out from under the boot-heel of the billionaire class is armed bloody revolution, of which I’m terrified of due to what typically comes next, historically.
Orwell and Huxley were supposed to be warnings, not manuals for sociopathic murderous political cults. Then again, maybe things will turn out like Zardoz.
You are right, there will be people who remain to not buy into the side of the moral grandstanders and they will be shamed incessantly for it and grouped in the same bin as the extreme right even though that is very far from their position.
It’s not good of its own merit though, it’s only good compared to something worse. Neither party represents the interests of the average working class individual.
Edit: I thought about it more after responding and the Democratic party does occasionally implement policies that are beneficial to the American people. It’s just difficult to see that sometimes among all of the pandering to corporate interests. So I concede that occasionally the Dems are beneficial for the working class, and almost/always better than the Republicans.
Maybe for you that’s the case, I definitely have a definition of morally good and both sides aren’t that. Accepting collateral for example. You can’t be good in my book if you’re doing that, and they both did.
I don’t think you should state this so definitively in a couple sentences, when philosophers whose job it is to figure this out are still pouring out dissertations on this question.
Can’t we start a ‘We all suck’ movement. There are shitty people of all races, genders, ethnicities, religions, or whatever. Once we all embrace that we can all evolve and work against them.
For me at least, it’s more of “conservatives are crazy, conspiracy-led, bigots but liberals are annoying.” and this of course only applies to the most outspoken of both sides.
I know plenty of people who vote republican, that are decent people (not antivax, not racist, not homophobic), but are either religious or gun nuts. Hell, I have a coworker that agrees with 95% of democratic policies but will never vote for them because they’ll “take his guns.” Do I think they’re dumb, sure. Do I think they’re evil, no?
Liberals I see like vegans. The core messaging is right, but the preachier you get, the more people are going to dislike you, even if they agree with you on principle. Even though I’ve voted democrat in every election, I couldn’t help but roll my eyes when someone told me I should stop using the word “marijuana” because it’s racist.
I don’t really want to hang out with qanon, racist types or people where I have to be careful of saying “mailman” instead of “mail carrier”. Obviously if I had to choose, it’d be the latter, but I don’t have to choose because 80% of people aren’t that politically motivated every second of their day.
What alternative is there to getting preachier? I don’t get in people’s faces, but I understand why people do it. For years, they’ve lightly suggested perhaps making things not terrible, and it’s let the far right get away with heinous shit.
Depends on context. If someone is saying “wow I hate all gays and hope they’re put in extermination camps” then sure I’d speak up and tell them they’re a piece of shit. If someone says “I think gays should have equal rights but personally I think it’s wrong” then I’d shrug it off. I think there’s a line between outright hatred and ignorance/cultural/religious-norms that people ignore too much. Qanon type people are too far gone, but the others I think could change, and immediately shutting them down as racists or homophobes doesn’t help sway them.
What’s the response if someone is making statements like “I think it’s important for everyone to get in politics. For instance, I have listened to Mr. Dobadian many times and think he’s an excellent candidate.” and the first search result for this fictitious person is a speech where he declares; “ALL PEOPLE WITH BROWN EYES NEED TO DROWN IN MUD WATER.”?
Shut down the latter person immediately as racist. But what about the first - the person advocating them? What’s the right way of disrupting their beliefs without “belittling” them?
“Hey, I listened to that Mr. Dobadian and he sounds crazy. I think you should be careful about listening to him.”
“I get that it sounds different for someone indoctrinated by media, but I do think you should give him a chance.”
“No, I mean, he literally said that schoolchildren needed to be blown up.”
“I don’t see value in disingenuously misrepresenting my candidate. I think you’re drawing your own extreme conclusions.”
“Okay, you know what, screw you, you’re just another racist.”
“Wow! Immediate shutdown much? Your kind are so intolerant!”
Or, you could ignore these “secondary echos” of the extremist crazies - which is what lead to people in extremist positions spreading their message and getting elected.
So, which is it? Do you interface with them, and make your beliefs known, or not? Keep in mind, you literally won’t have all the time in the world to dismantle the lack of logic behind every one of them.
I mean, this made up person definitely sounds difficult to deal with. But this is getting into qanon territory basically, and I don’t think the vast majority of conservatives are like that. Plus I believe you can have open discussions and say “I disagree with that entirely” without adding “and you’re a bigot” at the end. It’s also easier in real life to tell if someone is genuinely hateful or their heart is in the right place but they’re a bit of a moron.
My whole gripe with overly-progressives is that they’ll completely write someone off as evil for not being progressive enough. It seems you’re assuming I’d never speak up against genuine racism, when originally my point was "it’s annoying when people tell you saying ‘marijuana’ or ‘mailman’ is racist and transphobic.
I’m kidding there, but maybe you see my point. Just like myself, you’ve set only a small set of options. Either people are evil, or they’re stupid, and no one likes being called either. It’s not plausible to completely avoid either label.
The point about marijuana is unfortunately lost on me. If it’s a reference to some extremist position, I’m afraid I don’t necessarily follow.
Plus I believe you can have open discussions and say “I disagree with that entirely” without adding “and you’re a bigot” at the end.
Man, you’d think so. Wouldn’t ya? But I haven’t heard that type of discourse in a long time. I know people who accuse anyone who doesn’t agree with literally every point they make of being bigots. Just today I was talking with a friend who accused a person with a blended family of being a racist. I see the same thing every single day online. Go find some 10 year old Reddit posts about politics and read the comments, the tone and the communication is completely different than it is now. It’s getting pretty bad out there.
I have a coworker that agrees with 95% of democratic policies but will never vote for them because they’ll “take his guns.”
Did he not hear trump say he likes to take the guns first and worry about the law later? Did he not hear trump say China was too soft in Tiananmen Square?
The Democrats are coming for the guns… but so is trump.
You’re giving these guys too much credit. They don’t follow the news or read anything, ever. This is the same coworker who, when a hasidic Jewish person walked into our shop, said “I thought Amish couldn’t work with electricity” and was 100% genuine.
Your absolutely right. Trump gets a pretty failing grade on 2A rights and from a general libertarian measure, and shouldn’t even be run on republican tickets. As someone who wants more Democrat aligned things like universal healthcare, UBI, police reform, and tax reform, I want those things from a libertarian framestate where those things are the most effective way for the federal government to provide for the common good with the least amount of bureaucracy and government intrusion into citizen’s lives. This means I hold all of my constitutional rights in high regard, the 2nd among them.
I hate having my options being a “choose which rights you least want to lose” adventure game. Since taking the guns is a Democrat plank compared to at least lip service in support at the Republican party level, you get shills like Trump getting the pro gun vote cause he was quiet about it for long enough. Living in the flyovers, I have been voting for my not-anto-gun Democrat at the state level, but I wish i had those options at the House/Senate and Presidental levels too because without RCV my third party votes are basically protest votes. Further off topic, I am getting feed up with more and more libertarian candidates not being libertarian but Christian nationalist lite. The cancer is spreading.
I am getting feed up with more and more libertarian candidates not being libertarian but Christian nationalist lite. The cancer is spreading.
They’re all corporatists. They state a couple of libertarian ideals that are in no way reflected in their voting history, and then they go hard for the GOP agenda. I guess that’s a good strategy, since most libertarians in the United States seem to actually be Republicans. It is really frustrating being someone who doesn’t fully align with either party, and having no other options.
I think the amount of annoying anal liberals such as that is overblown. And whenever I do see that, I see other leftists calling their shit out.
What’s really “both sides” is the fact that Democrats don’t do enough when they have the chances too, because really the majority opinion of the Democrats is way farther right then people in the US like to admit.
Tbf my way of thinking is probably based off my environment. I live in a liberal area but work in a conservative work environment, so all the conservatives I know don’t have Trump flags, stickers, spout antivax shit, etc. but all the liberals I know feel more empowered.
But as far as the political parties themselves go, I agree. Neither side is doing anything to address the class divide, which would help nearly everyone.
Nothing bugs me more than democrats being called the “extreme left” or wtf ever. They’re center right, full stop.
Unpopular opinion, if dems ran an leftist they’d sweep it. They can’t though because it’d be detrimental to everything they actually care about. Bernie swept that primary year but we all knew they’d never run him.
The Dems have run relative leftists in the past: Bernie Sanders was on the primary ballot in 2020 … and lost.
If you want to blame anyone: look at our fellow “voters”. Asking my under-30 coworkers if they voted in the primary and/or the general election was depressing as fuck.
I typed out a like 6 paragraph explanation of why it’s both of their faults that this is happening. Suffice to say that this is just the latest iteration of a fight that’s been going on for a very VERY long time. At times the Palestinians were in control and horrible, and now the Jews are returning the favor. These two assholes have done nothing but make it worse every time they got a chance to make it better.
That’s why I literally don’t care what happens to either. They are both horrible and I’m a poor person on the other side of the world. Even IF I cared. I lack the money and resources to do anything about it, and debating with people on the internet about things that we can’t change and don’t fully understand is a modern day Sisyphean task.
Edit: wait are we talking US politics? In that case both sides do suck. But one is trying to kill trans and gay people and I can’t support that. So, Biden it is.
The meme itself isn’t about U.S. politics( at least I don’t perceive it that way, I see it more general since I have seen this argument in a lot of situations while not being american), but the overwhelmingly american majority of users want to make it about a U.S. election.
Thanks for the link, I didn’t know that. There’s also the first “no” which was the Arabs saying no to the UN partition plan of mandatory Palestine.
It reminds me of the buzz on twitter last year about “how much land should Ukraine cede to Russia in exchange for peace” and the general concensus there was also “no”.
It doesn’t matter what I think the borders should be. I have no sway over that. Not only do I not have a dog in this fight. I don’t find it entertaining to debate it. I have read a nauseating amount of material about this subject. I have watched enough videos on this subject to be considered torture, and in the end. I can’t help but feel like both of these assholes are made for each other.
But like I said. My feelings mean absolutely nothing. Because I am just a random weirdo on the internet, just like you. Just like you, I don’t have the money or influence to bring peace to the Middle East. Just like you, I did what I felt was enough research and then made a decision. Just like you this conversation isn’t going to sway me. But more importantly. Just like you my feelings on the subject won’t change anything. Innocent people are going to die regardless of what we say. It’s a tragedy, but it’s true.
So, I guess what I’m saying is… Maybe we should agree to disagree.
That’s why I literally don’t care what happens to either.
Tbh I respect your honesty much more than the cowards who share your opinion but try to stay on their moral high horse by saying “well akshually, both sides bad”. If you think Palestinians should get genocided, just say it. If you don’t care, just say it. If you do care, just say it.
MLK Jr. had a similar idea about the “moderate white”, and there’s a good Elie Wiesel quote in the same vein:
I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.
Add comment