Three years after the January 6 attack, propaganda about the insurrection is poisoning the American public

The U.S. will mark the anniversary of the January 6 insurrection on Saturday, a milestone that will confer upon the reality-dwelling citizenry a grim reminder of the potency of propaganda and how quickly it can warp perception when introduced into the public square.

Just three years ago, most of the country watched with dismay and horror as a violent MAGA mob beat back authorities and stormed the country’s citadel of democracy. The Donald Trump-incited crush of disillusioned rioters, fueled by a stream of fantastical lies, believed that the 2020 election had been stolen by sinister forces working to undermine the democratic election.

Of course, not only was their belief flatly incorrect, but evidence later emerged indicating that it was Trump who, in fact, had tried to subvert democracy.

Facts, however, have little bearing on the sentiment inside the Republican Party, which has been fed a steady diet of lies and half-truths by Fox News and the rest of the sprawling right-wing media machine. To wit, the false notion that Joe Biden nefariously stole the 2020 election is now widely shared inside the GOP. A CNN poll conducted over the summer found that nearly 70% of Republicans believe Biden’s win was not legitimate, a number that has continued to tick up.

MotoAsh,

Three years later, the ring leader and main benefactor is still free and openly lying.

This country is a joke. Literally incapable of defending itself from the inside. The US is beyond pathetic and will go down in history as such. We are so capable yet choose corruption.

Nudding,

My guy, a country founded on the backs of a native American genocide and then 300 years of slavery, that decrees freedom above all else? You’ve never not been a joke.

MotoAsh,

My guy, the goodness or badness of the country says NOTHING to refute my point that it is presently utterly and completely failing to defend itself from the inside.

fan0m,
fan0m avatar

deleted_by_author

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  • tacosplease,

    You also didn’t realize that’s not what they said

    pimento64,

    And of course you get put on every watchlist in the country if you say people should just handle the Donald Trump problem directly and Shinzo Abe him. We do the most to protect that man from lynch mobs even though he was more than willing to use them. And for the record, I’m neither going to murder the man nor incite anyone else to do so, it’s impossible to get away with and I don’t have the balls even if I wasn’t scared of prison, but I guarantee there would be very few tears shed if it did happen and nobody of worth would lose any sleep.

    rockSlayer,

    Don’t worry. My bet is he’ll get the Chauvin treatment before getting transferred to country club prison.

    Pons_Aelius,

    handle the Donald Trump problem directly and Shinzo Abe him.

    45 US presidents, 10 assassination attempts with 4 being successful.

    A major part of the problems the USA faces is because they believe political problems (well, most problems really) can be solved with the gun.

    tigeruppercut,

    I don’t know if the problem would be better of not, but political assassination isn’t exactly exclusive to the US. There have been several in Japan, and the most recent on against Abe (done with a gun I might add) actually went a long way to solving the issues that the assassin had with the LDP, namely that the government had a lot of people taking money from the moonies.

    Pons_Aelius,

    When I was a kid, saying Timmy does it too, was never a strong argument even then.

    But seriously, compared the other Anglo countries countries the US has an issue with political violence. IIRC, there has never been an attempt against a Can, Aus or NZ leader.

    tacosanonymous,

    I really hope no one kills him. I’m not sure I’d be able to live another couple of decades with people treating him like a fucking martyr.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    He will be a martyr even if he dies at 120 of natural causes in the lap of luxury. The cult has already formed. When he dies, he will ascend and they will wait for his return… or they’ll say he never died at all like JFK, Jr.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
    Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

    And in a couple hundred years there's gonna be a ladder sitting on Mar a Lago because the various sects of the Trumpian religion can't agree on who should move it.

    Well, if Florida's not underwater by then.

    FlyingSquid,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I’ve known about the ladder for a while. Religion can be horrible but when it’s funny, it’s hilarious.

    whofearsthenight,

    God. We already have to deal with them idolizing fucking Reagan. And yeah, as long as he is alive and not in office, the chances he goes to jail go up every day.

    pennomi,

    Political assassination gets rid of a figurehead but revitalizes the entire movement. It’s not a smart thing to do if you want to actually fix problems.

    CodeName,

    That’s true but there isn’t anyone waiting in the wings who can capture the reactionary imagination like trump. They’ve been trying and they always come up short. I don’t get it because I think trump is an abhorrent waste of space, but his people just love the shit out of him. Without him the entire right fractures and starts infighting.

    pennomi,

    OR that becomes the event that unifies the right wing together. Don’t underestimate the power of a martyr.

    helpImTrappedOnline,

    Just wait; if a Republican wins the next election, the democrats will be crying about voter fraud and a stolen election. It is the great circle jerk of American Politics.

    diffusive,

    It’s quite a speculation. Democrats haven’t lost (or won) any 2024 election yet.

    That said, let’s try to think how elections are “stolen”. First of all, i define stolen as irregularities in counting votes. People voting twice or on behalf of someone else is unheard in the…human history (why? Because it’s hard, a villain needs to find, one by one, millions of votes for making any meaningful impact on elections)

    For counting irregularities it takes two things (1) that the primary system for counting is corrupted and (2) control mechanisms are corrupted and/or ineffective.

    Only incumbent can influence (1) because only incumbent has power at the time of election while (2) is even more complex and, by design, neither incumbent (nor opposition parties) have full control of control mechanisms. So, realistically, only incumbent may have a chance to corrupt the system. In 2020, indeed, incumbent (Trump) tried to influence the counting system and failed because of the control mechanisms (e.g. state officials, even republican state officials, refused to comply because they knew their internal control mechanisms would not have allowed them).

    Now in 2024 the incumbent is democrats so, if anything, only republicans may speculate irregularities.

    But anyone can say anything. I may say that i am billionaire but not for this reason the bank must give me 1B$ cash. I have to demonstrate to be billionaire.

    So, to recap, in 2024 onoy republican can reasonably accuse of irregularities and, in that case, they must demonstrate that there were these irregularities.

    rickdg,
    @rickdg@lemmy.world avatar

    Point being, they’ll doing it again if given the chance.

    Illuminostro,

    You know, the First Amendment was created to make sure the average citizen would have protection against speaking out against the government with reasonable confidence they couldn’t be persectued. Like when kings or The Church could have you imprisoned or executed on a whim, not long before The Founders drafted The Constituiton. But now, bad actors acting in bad faith use it as a weapon to spread fear and hate propaganda.

    I think a new Amendment is needed to stop blatant and obvious seditiuous and hateful speech. But they’ll figure out a way to pervert that too, and corrupt the officials who enforce such laws.

    Moira_Mayhem,

    I think a much easier solution is to disenfranchise every trump voter as accessory to sedition because that’s basically the only way this isn’t going to get much worse as they start finding less stupid fascist leaders.

    Vyllenor,

    Wdym 3 years? Is it currently not 2022?

    Mafflez,

    It isn’t. Jist the dumb cunts that think trumps so pure. It was aired live on national TV if facts and literal live evidence doesn’t sway them nothing will. Not even Trump fucking Ivanka on live TV would.

    sbmc29,

    Like half of America is basically braindead.

    SendMePhotos,
    rottingleaf,

    Like half of America is basically braindead.

    Do you belong to that half?

    What is the expectancy of you answering “yes” and the trustworthiness of your answer?

    Alph4d0g,

    It does seem like it hovers around 50 percent but there are other factors. Some of that 50 percent knows how to manipulate the brain challenged for their own personal or political benefit. Others might have the capacity to use logic and reason but were raised not to. Or are so stubborn and righteous that they seek only validation to confirmation bias.

    Illuminostro,

    They don’t think he’s pure. They just like that he wants to hurt the people they want to hurt. He appeals to the worst of us. And they love it.

    doingless,

    People acted stupid and violently. But I think the “insurrection” language isn’t helpful when people on the right are fed stats about it that make that seem like propaganda, especially considering the violent riots in Seattle and other places not that long before. Like only three civilians were found with guns. And there is video of people being peaceably let into buildings.

    I’m not saying people shouldn’t be prosecuted. They fucked around and found out. Good. But a real right wing insurrection would have more than three guns. I’m expecting this will be removed though, have to control the dialog and making it an insurrection is crucial to the reelection plan! Fuck Republicans but fuck Biden too.

    mindbleach,

    This was a failed coup.

    Fuck off.

    bigschnitz,

    Trump supporters stormed the building in an attempt to obstruct Congress voting and forcibly have them change what they are doing (certify Trump instead of Biden).

    It isn’t an insurrection because it was violent enough or because they were unruly enough (a bloodless coup is still a coup). It’s an insurrection because its aim was to seize power, unlawfully, in this case for the guy who lost the election. Whatever riots happened with no political goal or agenda to overthrow the government are irrelevant. However violent or unpleasant they were, they are not described as an insurrection because they aren’t and insurrection

    rez_doggie,

    Need to start dealing with these people like nazis

    TurtleJoe,
    @TurtleJoe@lemmy.world avatar

    Give them good jobs at NASA and other government agencies?

    Mafflez,

    They aren’t that smart sadly. At least the SS officers were insanely smart. Though they should have been gassed or shot.

    Illuminostro,

    The dude who ran the SS was what is basically a D&D nerd with the right connections and subservient personality.

    Emerald,

    I think we’d have enough bullets to just shoot them all, we wouldn’t need to use gas chambers for them, that would be much less convenient.

    scripthook,
    @scripthook@lemmy.world avatar

    No it’s just poisoning the people that have no logical thinking and believe anything Trump says.

    rottingleaf,

    Consider that you inevitably consume some propaganda yourself, but one never can see it, until maybe many years after.

    Those people don’t want to be fools too, but they don’t see it happening.

    TheRealKuni,

    You’d be surprised. I know personally people who traditionally support the GOP but despise Trump who believe a bunch of the bullshit around January 6 because they hear it from their circles. Like how Antifa was involved.

    EvilEyedPanda,

    I’m not a conservative republican, but I do agree not all right wingers are bad, we have a representative democracy because what works for me in my medium sized city dosent work for Matt in New York, or Jerry in BFE Montana. It’s the division that the partisan politics thats truly hurting us all.

    ashok36,

    Have you asked them why antifa would want to delay kicking Trump out of the white house?

    Illuminostro,

    Logic has nothing to do with it. It’s pure racism. They’ve been conditioned their whole lives to fear and hate “The Other,” instead of recognizing who’s really fucking them. I.E., the ultra rich.

    GelatinGeorge,

    They would just claim it was to ‘make the them look bad’ or something similar. That’s the beauty of bullshit; it’s like a perpetual avalanche. It’s overwhelming and incredibly difficult to counter.

    Suavevillain,
    @Suavevillain@lemmy.world avatar

    The narrative around this event has been downplayed so much that it feels like a non factor for Trump. If it was anyone else in trouble for this there wouldn’t be so much debate.

    Moira_Mayhem,

    If it were 150 years ago Trump and a shitton of his supporters would have already been hanged and we wouldn’t be creeping steadily towards fascism.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Three months after Genocide Joe committing mass murder, all the Democrats are doing is focusing on Trump.

    Genocide Joe needs to go to prison for life and rot there. Filthy Zionazi scum.

    Luminocta,

    You’re the reason this article exists…

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Why

    Luminocta,

    For one, thinking that the current president is a mass murderer. His choice in supporting Israël is… Not good. But I value human lives so any choice to join a war or genocide or something is bad in my eyes.

    Second … I mean, zionazi? Really? You don’t even know what both words apart mean, clearly.

    Third. Even if it was all true, you are still just screaming nonsense. Nobody takes you seriously in that state. What are you trying to prove?

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Zionists and Nazis are the same thing.

    Genocidal maniacs that believe they are the Ubermensch and want to expand their Lebensraum by committing genocide and any person outside their group.

    Or are you denying that israel is committing genocide?

    queermunist,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    Nazis were cribbing off of Manifest Destiny and the reservation system. Israel is just the 51st state.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    From page 64 of the current South African genocide charge against israel.

    Israeli Army reservist “motivational speech”: On 11 October 2023, 95-year old Israeli army reservist Ezra Yachin — a veteran of the Deir Yassin massacre during the 1948 Nakba — reportedly called up for reserve duty to “boost morale” amongst Israeli troops ahead of the ground invasion, was broadcast on social media inciting other soldiers to genocide as follows, while being driven around in an Israeli army vehicle, dressed in Israeli army fatigues:

    “Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live. . . Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don’t wait, go to his home and shoot him . . . We want to invade, not like before, we want to enter and destroy what’s in front of us, and destroy houses, then destroy the one after it. With all of our forces, complete destruction, enter and destroy. As you can see, we will witness things we’ve never dreamed of. Let them drop bombs on them and erase them.”

    From page 64 of the South African genocide charge against israel.

    Sure seems some Nazi shit to me.

    queermunist,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    I recommend reading American Holocaust, Lies My Teacher Told me, A People’s History of the United States, or any other account of the bloodthirsty freaks that genocided the Natives. The things America did inspired the Nazis, who then inspired the Zionists. It’s all the same.

    Mafflez,

    You stupid bitch, you remember how many us citizens died under trumps watch when covid first hit because he was negligent? I sure as hell do. Fuck you an every son of a bitch like you. What’s sad is I don’t like Joe. But he’s no where near as incompetent as Trump. And all you can do is spout bullshit you know isn’t true because your bitch daddy didn’t get reelected and cried like a fuckin toddler cause he didn’t get a candy bar at Walmart. I’m sick of little bitches like you.

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Imagine being so America brained that Genocide Joe committing mass genocide on little children isn’t relevant. Because they are brown of course.

    Cultist shit.

    RememberTheApollo_,

    You have to drink the poison willingly.

    machinin,

    Not necessarily.

    Smacks,
    @Smacks@lemmy.world avatar

    My MAGA dad keeps telling me it was an inside job by the Democrats. He’s saying everything was filmed way in advance by actors and everything was peaceful because of this mystical “new evidence” coming out; all the cops were a-part of the FBI, CIA, ect.

    nutsack,

    my parents are like this. i have never taken them seriously regarding anything

    Illuminostro,

    My sister was a medical lab tech for over 40 years, in a hospital, and she’s a vaccine denier. I can’t understand that. It’s all Fauci’s fault. But she fills her head with fear and hate from Fox every night.

    Moira_Mayhem,

    We like to pretend being smart or in a demanding skill field somehow makes people immune to propaganda.

    Studies show it doesn’t, and in fact opens up major blind spots that sometimes cause highly intelligent people to be more susceptible outside their fields of expertise.

    Moira_Mayhem,

    On the other hand, Jan6 finally snapped my dad out of his trump worship and he’s already told the family he’s not voting for him.

    Of course he’s not voting democrat either, just he’s not voting at all.

    Small victory I guess.

    Uglyhead,
    @Uglyhead@lemmy.world avatar

    QanonCasualties. I’m sorry for your loss.

    USSEthernet,

    I’m still shocked to this day that police weren’t mowing people down as they tried to force their way in. By not doing so, they basically said, “this is fine” IMO.

    calypsopub,

    The seditionists were likely well armed, so firing at them might have felt like suicide.

    freeindv,

    No they were not armed

    TheMightyCanuck,
    @TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works avatar

    This. When I first heard I imagined they’d set up a few MG nests and show they weren’t fucking around. I was quite surprised by how little a reaction, especially from the most gun happy country

    Mrkawfee,

    They were the right colour.

    ShaggySnacks,

    They also had the right political views.

    splicerslicer,

    Some of them on camera got caught removing the barriers and ushering them in.

    “Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses”

    CancerMancer,

    It’s clear some people haven’t seen the videos that have come out: quite a few people were let in by police. There is also some number of “arrested” people who turned out to be police and there is some evidence of them agitating the crowd.

    I’ve got to admit, having seen similar tactics at the G20 protests in Toronto that resulted in total authoritarian overreaction, I’m now reading this telling of Jan 6 as an insurrection with skepticism.

    bigMouthCommie,

    I watched it live. the more aggressive chuds are bad guys, but so are Congress and the capitol police and federal prosecutors and the fuckin media. letting the chuds go is good precedent for my freedom. siding with the police state is bad for my freedom. I don't need to agree with the chuds to keep shouting "fuck the police"

    CancerMancer,

    I don’t need to agree with the chuds to keep shouting “fuck the police”

    This is exactly where I’m at. Taking a principled stance here means we protect our own rights down the road, which I think are far more valuable than jailing some gullible idiots.

    JoeBigelow,
    @JoeBigelow@lemmy.ca avatar

    I have a flat earth to sell you!

    S_204,

    LoL. This is the stupidity that you get from watching Fox News and their ilk. Totally debased from reality.

    CancerMancer, (edited )

    I don’t watch Fox News, nor am I American.

    It doesn’t take a genius to see Jan 6 is more complicated than “chuds attacked the capitol”. “Lefty” mainstream media in America is just a different flavour of neoliberal shit slung by an opposing oligarch. American politics and media are just IRL WWE but with actual stakes and these psychopaths on all sides don’t care who they hurt.

    Examples of the IRL WWE in action on the “left”: Kyle Rittenhouse, Nick Sandmann, Johnny Depp. On the “right”: election interference, welfare queens, Planned Parenthood rumors.

    As hard as this will be for you to accept, you’re being sold lies just the same as the people you mock for being uninformed.

    I’d rather take a principled stance here and protect people’s rights even if I find those people and their actions distasteful, than create a precedent and make those rights harder to protect and uphold later. Some of what happened here is entrapment and its bullshit.

    gamermanh,
    @gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    That’s a lot of words to say nothing

    Sagifurius,

    God you people are morons

    CancerMancer,

    Ok let me simplify it for you: the story you’ve been told is just as fake as the Fox News story. Hope that helps.

    Illuminostro,

    Fuck Putin. Ask him how Democracy’s Dick tastes, and how civilian volunteers with drones kicking his ass feels.

    BreakDecks,

    And you have some truth you want to lay on us, or is this just a broadly conspiratorial statement?

    gamermanh,
    @gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Oh, no, I understood your point just fine through all of the rambling, it’s just irrelevant and wrong

    I didn’t get told a story, I watched the video live. I then watched more video after the fact and saw with my own eyes what happened

    A conservative mob was whipped unto a frenzy to try and help with the overthrow of democracy.

    Anyone who says otherwise (like you, cutie!) Is either lying purposefully or is a blind idiot who is to be laughed at. Go ahead and pick which you are

    TheJims,

    I think what is trying to be said is the police (off duty and on) are a conservative mob whipped into a frenzy. We know this by the many that attended, participatied and were arrested, charged and sentenced for their participation. We also know this from literally the entire history of police in America.

    stembolts,

    This may be an ESL thing, but your comment communicated no information. Seems to be randomly chosen words with small chunks of your opinion peppered in. But the comment itself makes absolutely zero sense.

    Illuminostro,

    Fuck Putin. Ask him how Democracy’s Dick tastes, and how civilian volunteers with drones kicking his ass feels.

    VoterFrog,

    So this was a left wing plot and for the first several hours, as Republicans begged Trump to do literally anything and he refused, he was actually doing what in your mind? Fighting a hidden battle against the deep state? All evidence suggests that Trump was more than OK with what was happening as it furthered his goals and supported his many other schemes of fraud, deception, and intimidation in order to remain in power.

    bigMouthCommie,

    no one is saying it was a left wing plot

    Illuminostro,

    Fuck Putin. Ask him how Democracy’s Dick tastes, and how civilian volunteers with drones kicking his ass feels.

    VoterFrog,

    Sure lol. Plenty of Republicans have blamed Antifa. But call it what you want, left wing plot, deep state plot, whatever. Whatever it is, it must be a master class in false flag operations considering it played right into everything that Trump had been broadcasting, desiring, and preparing for. They got him to play right along, vocally support the rioters, and withhold any assistance for the targets? Truly the greatest conspiracy of all time.

    bigMouthCommie,

    no one in this thread is saying it was a left wing plot. you're tilting at windmills.

    Illuminostro,

    Fuck Putin. Ask him how Democracy’s Dick tastes, and how civilian volunteers with drones kicking his ass feels.

    VoterFrog,

    Like I said, call it whatever you want. It’s still stupid.

    TheJims,

    So you’re saying the Police are complicit with Trump and his violent right wing extremists?

    Illuminostro, (edited )

    I can’t tell if you’re agitating on the side of the insurrectionist traitors, or just stating facts. But there were collaborators on the side of the defenders. Multiple law enforcement and active military members have been arrested and charged for their participation of the insurrection.

    Facebones,

    If it had been a liberal mob, we’d be marking the anniversary of the January 6 massacre, and it’d be a holiday for Republicans.

    mindbleach,

    What police? Law enforcement was really sparse that day… for some reason.

    The smartest man in the building backed away in the wrong direction so the mob would follow him.

    Illuminostro,

    If they weren’t lily white, it would have be a bloodbath, Tianemen Square style.

    crystalmerchant,

    I feel like there’s a major attribute of most of the crowd that affected this…

    BeautifulMind,
    @BeautifulMind@lemmy.world avatar

    Their continued refusal to acknowledge that it was a crime, and the normalization of criminal conspiracy and use of political violence to chill efforts to hold people accountable… all amounts to organized crime masquerading as legitimate politics

    Diva, (edited )
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Just 3 years after the January 6 attack, the “harm reduction” candidate is aiding (rushing weapons to, no less) an active genocide, using multiple aircraft carrier groups to fend off the second-poorest country in the middle east, because they are attempting ( and succeeding at) a blockade on the genociders, demanding a ceasefire.

    Yeah I’d say there’s a lot of propaganda about January 6 if that’s where your attention is.

    DarthBueller,

    Oh the poor Houthi rebels doing Iran’s bidding and attacking international commerce, they’re such victims. Poor guys are going to be red mist soon. Total bummer, said literally no one except shills.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Heroic Yemeni military acting on the Responsibility to Protect, doing whatever is in its power to stop the ongoing genocide. Every country should be doing what Yemen is doing and demand a ceasefire in Gaza.

    US global legitimacy is going down the fucking toilet and you have nobody but yourselves to thank for it.

    DarthBueller,

    deleted_by_moderator

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  • Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    lmao least misogynistic democrat

    never did a people deserve a century of humiliation more

    Socsa,

    Today on, actual leftist, or right wing Poe’s law troll: will voting for Trump end Israeli occupation of Gaza? Call 1800-OBV-IOUS to share your thoughts

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    I’m not voting for Trump, I’m writing in Hamas. Honestly incredible that democrats feel like they’re entitled to my vote.

    Socsa,

    You are writing in an organization which openly calls for the extermination of Jewish people?

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    The end to the Jewish settler-ethnostate. They can participate in representative democracy with the rest of the Palestinians. Or are you trying to imply that anti-zionism is antisemitism?

    You’re literally trying to guilt trip me into voting for the person supporting an actual genocide

    Socsa,

    Secular representative democracy, right?

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Would be an improvement over the settler ethnostates apartheid government.

    Socsa,

    Ah perfect, because that was the status quo of the Palestine Mandate - to govern Palestine via a bicameral legislature comprised of separate Muslim and Jewish houses. And I assume you know which side accepted this proposal and which side violently rejected it?

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Yeah, because they were rejecting the settler-colony. How about zero settler states and 1 state for everyone that isn’t an ethnostate?

    Socsa,

    This was pre-Israel. Partition was only considered because Arab Palestinians refused secular democracy. But as a student of history, you knew.that already.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here, is your position that ethnostates are good, or that US taxpayers are not complicit in genocide?

    Socsa,

    My point is that you claim to want secular democracy, and then you hold a double standard when it comes to Palestinian Arabs explicitly rejecting your solution. If you can convince Hamas to agree to secular unification then they will give you the Nobel Peace prize every day for the next 100 years. But this is not some big brain moment. Democratic unification has been tried. Democratic partition has been tried.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Sounds like you’ve talked yourself into supporting genocide. I support the people fighting to end the genocide with any means at their disposal.

    Socsa,

    You mean the side which chooses mass rape over secular democracy? You express support for secular democracy, so I can only infer your feelings on mass rape based on that.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    lmao ‘mass rapes’ you sound like some newsmax grandpa

    Socsa,

    Like you, I agree that secular unification is the obvious solution to this conflict. However, I am unwilling to ignore the role that religious extremism has historically played in preventing that outcome. It actually saddens me to once again see leftists abandon their first principles in favor of brain dead revolutionary fan service.

    Israel is absolutely an apartheid state which has brutalized Gaza far beyond what is necessary for security, retribution or deterrence. They should be condemned and sanctioned soundly for this. However, if you espouse support for secular unification, then you must also acknowledge that the Islamic opposition to Jewish co-governance is a major force preventing this outcome, and it has been that way since before the state of Israel has existed.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    At this point I don’t care about your concern trolling, excuses and hypotheticals when there’s actual shit going down now. The US should really stop supporting Israel if they want any credibility in the rest of the world going forward.

    Socsa,

    “Excuses and Hypotheticals” being history of the conflict you didn’t know about until now?

    You are the one who proposed hypothetical unification.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Your position is that when the apartheid government ends, the barbaric savages who have been getting kept at bay by the glorious liberal “democracy” it has (for the right types of citizens who qualify) will take revenge in a way just as brutal and exterminationist as the zionist colony.

    That’s just chauvinism, and you’re just repeating discredited hasbara and acting like a scholar which is fucking hilarious.

    we have a real-world example of what happens when an apartheid government ends- was there a genocide of white people in south africa?

    Socsa,

    I am not making any statement which is not the formal position of Hamas. But you didn’t state that you would write in the Palestinian Authority.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    lol liberals rolling up to tone police left opposition when your literal position is “lets give the genocidal ethnostate unlimited weapons because it’s full of hot white girls who’re going to get mass raped by the brown hordes if we just stand by” + “don’t forget to vote”

    You have the same position when it comes to this as some of the most disgusting republicans I’ve known

    Socsa,

    You express preference for secular unification, a stance I have agreed with. I have not expressed any desire to arm Israel. That is all in your head.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    good, do you feel upset that the biden government is rushing weapons there? You called me a right wing troll for not wanting to vote for genocide Joe (because of exactly this). Explain your logic.

    Socsa,

    If it is not incredibly obvious that Trump would do far worse than token support of Israel, then you are either not paying attention to the things he says and does, or you seek to intentionally downplay the things he says and does.

    He would, first of all, continue to arm Israel. He would also move onto University campuses with feds to arrest people protesting the war. And he would use this as a premise to escalate tensions with Iran. He has stated all of these things many times. Passive support for Trump objectively and unambiguously accomplishes none of the things you profess to value.

    If you want to repeat the mistakes of 2016 in letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, then I assume you either so privileged that you don’t believe you will be affected by American fascism, or you are a troll. However, I apologize if you are just naive.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    “passive support for trump” lmao

    If you seriously think that the democrats are capable of standing between where we are now and fascism, one that’s pretty naive too. I am telling you that we’re already there- we’re supporting the ethnostate ethnically cleansing. You’re arguing that it could hypothetically be worse, I’m telling you it doesn’t fucking matter at this point, I’m disgusted.

    Socsa,

    Right, so because of this attitude, people in Texas actually can’t use period tracking apps, and people in Ohio are being arrested for having miscarriages. This is not a hypothetical. Doctors in Seattle are being subpoenaed by the Texas AG for providing gender affirming care. This didn’t come out of nowhere. We have been yelling about these real, non hypothetical risks constantly. And now, if Trump wins, we know he will use the feds to extradite doctors across state lines. They have openly stated that they will use the executive branch to enforce this Christian nationalism. This is not a hypothetical.

    If you are fine with that moral liability, then carry on.

    As for me? I am a leftist who actually cares about protecting the vulnerable.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Maybe the democrats should stop doing evil shit if they want people to support them. It rules having libs (good cops) roll up to show me all the evil shit their friends (the bad cops) are going to do to us if we don’t support them while they unalive every last brown person standing in the way of the settlers.

    Also so much of this shit is happening under democrat governments anyways because they’re fucking useless at getting anything done or protecting vulnerable people. They’re literally cutting a deal on border security to get more weapons to a genocide

    Socsa,

    Right, it’s very clear that you don’t take the actual threat of this project 2025 shit seriously, because you are so incredibly privileged that you will allow your ideological purity blind you to the real world. And at the end of the day, you won’t actually prevent any brown people from dying, and will likely make the situation far worse.

    But that’s fine because what you actually want to do is whine, not govern. Because whining is easy.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Maybe the Democrats should stop doing unpopular things like giving unlimited unconditional material and military support to a genocide.

    Sounds like they’re the ones not taking this threat seriously. The only plan seems to be to scold people who are disgusted by your actions.

    Socsa,

    Friend, if supporting Trump liberates Gaza I’ll sell everything I own and dedicate my life to rebuilding the region with my own frail hands, and I will die happy for being wrong.

    If it doesn’t, I hope you will dedicate your life to seeking forgiveness at trans funerals for ignoring these alarms.

    If we have a deal, perhaps we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    I’m literally fucking trans, you have some supreme fucking nerve trying to guilt trip me when the primary fucking killer of Palestinian gay and trans people is the ongoing indiscriminate murder from occupation forces.

    Democrats are the worst “allies” in human history.

    Socsa, (edited )

    And that won’t stop if Trump is elected. The only difference will be that you and I will be up against the wall as well.

    Also, Hamas definitely does not tolerate any LGBT lifestyles.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    I don’t have any confidence I’m not going against the wall under the fucking democrats the way things are already going.

    Maybe you guys should stop arming the literal genocide, regardless of what it does for your election prospects.

    Socsa,

    US progressives are objectively the single most accomplished force for LGBTQ rights in the entire world. WTF are you smoking? If we are really back to to debating objective reality, then I’m back to calling you a troll.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Yeah, yeah just write off another queer person for expressing wrongthink, go back to your echo chamber and cj about how great and progressive your ally is while they fill the mass graves and put some shitty suburbs over them for white people to live in.

    Socsa,

    Mask: off

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Yeah yours fell off a long time ago, it’s been nauseating

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    US progressives are objectively the single most accomplished force for LGBTQ rights in the entire world.

    Sincerely disagree. It’s because of the horrific shit that the US does with an LGBT flag as the excuse that so many reactionaries and bigots around the world are empowered to persecute LGBT people under the guise of anti-imperialism.

    I oppose the pinkwashing of empire.

    Socsa,

    What the actual fuck. So the US can’t ever advance human rights because anti-western reactionaries will use it as reason to persecute LGBTQ communities?

    We are done here.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    You’re the one using a supposed lack of support of LGBT ‘rights’ as some sort of excuse for collective punishment and genocide. Honestly idk how I managed to avoid throwing up reading some of your posts.

    (I view human rights as pretty fucking important, but stop killing people first, fuck)

    badaboomxx,

    Just imagine that the republican agenda will keep the things as they are regardless of whoever is in power.

    So yeah the president is wrong in this one, but the gop is wrong in this one and in almost everything they do.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Just imagine that the republican agenda will keep the things as they are regardless of whoever is in power.

    I don’t view the democrats as credible actors for improving things. Joe Biden still owes me $600 ffs.

    Everything shitty that got started under Trump, finished under Biden. They’re literally cutting a deal with republicans over the border to get weapons to a genocide faster.

    badaboomxx,

    Lol, just remember who had the majority of the house. Basically you are complaining for something that the republican party has thr majority of power to stop and yet they don’t do it. Funny if you ask me.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    I don’t fucking care about which fucking rightwing party had which percentage of the house, it’s not like any of them are actually trying to get anything done besides writing fat checks to weapons manufacturers. If we can have an election and then the opposite of the election happens in policy it sounds like we have a pretty worthless fucking democracy and nothing worth defending.

    Biden could simply not arm the apartheid ethnostate which is ethnically cleansing Palestine.

    Instead he’s sending aircraft carrier groups to prevent Yemen from attempting to apply pressure for a ceasefire by blockading.

    badaboomxx,

    Sure bud, but the bOtH sIdEs argument is not good at all.

    But tell me, under the other parry, would things be different?

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Only the rhetoric would be different, the policy outcomes would be the same. I have a lot of negative emotions associated with having a bunch of soulless monsters pretending like they’re somehow advancing the cause of LGBT rights by dumping weapons on a genocidal apartheid government.

    badaboomxx,

    Again the bOtH sIdEs argument is really bad in this case, because you know, I don’t see one side removing rights of a sector of the population.

    The hypocrisy here is the fact that many conservatives try to pass the blame 100% to the party in power even if the other party boycots them.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    The hypocrisy here is the fact that many conservatives try to pass the blame 100% to the party in power even if the other party boycots them.

    This sentence makes no sense, please do better.

    The democrats are literally helping in the removal of rights of an entire fucking population what the fuck are you talking about.

    badaboomxx,

    Nah, they don’t. The republican party is the one who does that, just look at the abortion rights. You just don’t have to lie like that.

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    They’re literally deploying multiple aircraft carrier groups to keep Yemen from blockading Israel, demanding a ceasefire- and end to the genocide. Biden is the one keeping this genocide going, and like it or not, the people Israel is killing are losing their human rights- all of them.

    Democrats are cutting a deal with the republicans to give them what they want on the border so they can get more weapons to Israel faster. I don’t see how these aren’t just two right wing parties.

    badaboomxx,

    Sure bud, the democrats are the only ones.

    Nah, biden only wants the status quo, is an idiot for doing that, but this is a matter that also the republicans are helping, just ask yourself why they didn’t stop the sell of weapons to israel? they didn’t.

    Lol, you are just insane, anyway the republicans are the ones that give everything to keep israel armed, so don’t lie.

    Diva, (edited )
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    The status quo is literally continuing to support genocide as normal. The republicans are also disgusting war criminals, however they’re not pretending to be on my side and trying to guilt me into supporting them.

    Why should I ever support democrats if literally supporting a genocide is a political football to them.

    If this is going to happen regardless of if the republicans or democrats win, why the fuck are we pretending this is a democracy. If we can’t democratically decide to stop helping the fucking genocide it stands to reason that the ‘democracy’ is worthless.

    badaboomxx,

    That is true but the republicans won’t do any better. Dontry to say that rhey will fix that, they are more pro war.

    Because at least one side is trying but the conservatives are war mongers

    Diva,
    @Diva@lemmy.ml avatar

    Democrats are also warmongers, they just are more careful about how they phrase things, and to who.

    grinning ear to ear and saying “hell yeah I’d do it again” while doing a warcrime vs going “aw shucks I’m so sorry but it’s just how things are” and doing a warcrame- the outcome is the same for the people on the receiving end.

    I’m so sick of the team sports shit in politics, this is literally killing people

    badaboomxx,

    Sure bud, but so far I haven’t seen thr democrats trying to increase the budget for war.

    Yeah, but first you have to see which side is more willing to use war as a tool, republicans are known for that.

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